Unpacked In Santa Cruz
"Unpacked in Santa Cruz" is a homegrown podcast hosted by Michael Howard that dives into the lives, stories, and salty moments of people who call this coastal community home—or have been shaped by it in some way. Whether it's a deep conversation with local surfers opening up about mental health, or a peek behind the curtain of someone who started a one-of-a-kind food spot right here in town, every episode brings something real.
You’ll hear from folks who found healing behind the lens, built businesses from scratch, or chased massive waves thanks to a lifetime spent around our local waters. These aren’t just interviews—they’re conversations that reflect the heart and soul of Santa Cruz. Raw, reflective, and rooted in community, Unpacked in Santa Cruz brings local voices to the surface.
Unpacked In Santa Cruz
Episode 61:Graseilah Coolidge :From a Life of Intelligence Work to Emotional Intelligence and the Pursuit of Peace-Why the Forest Matters More Than You Think
Aiming to stop conflict nearly broke us; learning to create peace brought us back. That’s the arc we explore with our guest, Graseilah Coolidge—born in Iowa, raised in Venezuela through coups and shutdowns, trained in nonproliferation, and recruited into intelligence after 9/11. The work was high‑stakes and mission‑driven, until a harsh realization landed: data doesn’t always drive decisions when agendas are in play. When that worldview cracked, she didn’t double down on noise; she went to the redwoods.
We talk about forest immersion as a practical, grounded practice: days in nature with water, warmth, and no distractions; fasting that quiets the body; stillness that lets memory and meaning surface. Senses sharpen. Awe returns. Priorities reorder. And because belonging is medicine, the process is held in community so reintegration is real, not just a peak moment. We dig into why fear spreads so easily in a media economy, how data addiction can bankrupt attention, and why presence—not more information—is the antidote. Santa Cruz becomes a character in this story: a place of radical expression and prickly borders, contradictions and care, redwoods and neighborhood kindness that keep us rooted as the town keeps changing.
We also get practical about civic agency. Voting won’t hand us peace, but it’s one lever that keeps space open for peace to grow. If America is a promise to keep trying, we renew that promise by showing up: in the booth, under the trees, with our neighbors. Come for the intelligence-to-intuition pivot; stay for the tools—fasting, attention, community—that make peace a daily practice. If you’re ready to trade doomscrolling for presence and find a more resilient way to live, press play, share with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show.
Check out Graseilah’s work on the links below…
https://epicgatherings.com/graseilah/
https://youtu.be/mvyG_URZEr8?si=PBjQjMR7_g34K7am
It's always the first question, when does it start? Well, we started already. Welcome to the Unpacked in Santa Cruz podcast. I'm your host, Michael Howard. This podcast is brought to you today by Santa Cruz Vives Magazine, also by Point Side Beat Check. You can look up both of those places on the interweb. I am grateful for my sponsorships from them. Anyways, uh for those of you who have been listening to the podcast for some time here, you all know I'm I've been going on a personal journey and somewhat sharing it with you and and the perspective that I have about this town. Uh and uh I wanted to address some things before I introduce you to my guest, who actually is a longtime friend of mine, although I think just now we're getting to know each other. And uh but it it speaks to I I don't know if issues that I have in my life is the right way to put it. It's more just the realities of time and space and where we are, you know, at certain moments in our life. And in particular, uh this person has been married to a very good friend of mine that I grew up with for a long time. Uh kind of came into the group late, I guess would be the best way to put it. And it's not as though we haven't been friendly or done fun things together. We certainly had lots of dinners, but uh both my wife, Kim, and I are really in the process of getting to know this this wonderful person. And uh, but it speaks to something very personal to me that I am trying to work on in this cycle of my life, of taking a what I would describe as a repentative posture. That that when repentance enters our life, uh, much like chaos, we are seeing things that we hadn't seen before. And they're kind of uh-oh moments, you know, it's like, oh no, I didn't see that. And we take that deep gasp in. And I I think it was about a year ago that we sat together over dinner, and at least for me personally, I go, oh, I missed something here. And and what I missed, you know, with with whom I'm about to introduce um was this really wonderful human that I had a perception of a different way. And it wasn't as though we were overlooking things, anything like that. It was just, you know, I was looking through the lens of Santa Cruz and and where someone fit, you know, in in in the group of friends that we had, who they were as people. And uh she's kind of been a mystery to me that that is slowly unpacking. And it's it and what I missed was was very simple that that in the transition that she was going through at the time that she was doing it as she was stepping out of of of let's just say a life of intelligence and uh data, uh the the person that I thought she was was not the person that she was. And and she is also a person who's done a lot of really, really deep work. I'm not sure how much we'll get into that, but I I'm hoping that we do. Uh but more importantly, I you know, in retrospect for me, as as I'm looking at this and and having the privilege of sitting with you, that uh the remontes in time I think that we really could have been there for each other. You know, that that that we were not going through dissimilar processes, you know, as we have gotten to know each other a little bit more in the last year. And it's not a place I regret. It's not one of those things, it's just a oh darn, like like there could have been some good conversations about about what was really going on inside of our hearts, you know, uh, about the processes that we go through as humans. And and so we're here now, we're here now, and you get to listen to Grassiella Coolidge.
SPEAKER_01:Hello, everyone.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to the program. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. So, you know, as I expressed, you're you're married to a good friend of mine, Braden Coolidge. And and for those of you who don't know the Coolidge is, anybody who's gone to UCSE can look up at the sign. And you know, it's it's part of part of uh Santa Cruz royalty in a way, and just kind of the weirdness of a small town, but also an international town. And as you hear Graciela speak a little bit more, you realize that she's not necessarily native to the U.S., although she's very American now in lots of ways, and probably more American than anybody I've ever met in the sense of the idea that that we represent. But it really is a privilege to have you on the show, Graciela. So thank you so much for coming on.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:So why don't you tell my audience a little bit about yourself, you know, however many minor big details you want to get to. Like what got you to Santa Cruz, California?
SPEAKER_01:Oh my God. Well, first of all, I was born in the U.S. Okay. Believe it or not.
SPEAKER_00:I do believe you.
SPEAKER_01:Very mysterious. I was born in Ames, Iowa.
SPEAKER_00:Oh wow. Flat.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, my parents were going to school. They were going, they were university exchange students back in the day. And when they graduated, they won't moved to Venezuela where they're from.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And so I grew up in Venezuela, not speaking English at all. Um, and uh my family is Jewish, Catholic, American, classic, Italian, Venezuelan. Yeah. I'm a mud of many, many things. Yeah. Um, so yeah, Spanish is my first language, but I was born in the US. And that's how I was able to come to the US because I wanted to I was an American in the first place. Uh Santa Cruz. I came to California for the first time in the early 2000s. And I was doing a master's degree. I came for a master's degree in the non-proliferation of weapons of mass destruction at the Monterey Institute of International Studies, which is now the Monterey at the Middlebury Institute. And at the time I had met former California Senator Bill Manning back in a program that I was doing at The HEG. And I found out about this this program on nuclear disarmament in Monterey. And so that's why I came. And it was like the place to be at the time. Um, and that was in the early 2000s. And uh after a year of me being there, September 11th happened.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And um, all of a sudden, the school of international security became sort of the front focus for a lot of people, including the intelligence community. And it became a big breeding ground and recruiting ground for intelligence. And um I ended up doing intelligence work, got recruited, and went to um a nuclear weapons lab in New Mexico, where I was there for a while. Um, and I left California for the first time. And I went through my whole heroin journey and came back to California for the last year, and that's when I met this amazing, beautiful human. Yeah, uh, Mr. Coolidge.
SPEAKER_00:Mr. Coolidge.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I decided to make Santa Cruz my home.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. What what has Santa Cruz meant to you as a human? You know, it's like you're really well traveled. Um, you know, when when you first showed up here compared to when you decided to be here, what what's the thing about this place that just really attracts you to the spot?
SPEAKER_01:Nature. It comes down to I just fell in love with the redwood forest of California, particularly the ones here, the the Central Coast, um, our backyard here in Santa Cruz. Yeah. Um, I spend quite a bit of time commuting with nature and uh analyzing instead of conflict analyzing these majestic trees and uh just the power that it has for a lot of us who are going through um difficult times.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And what a grounding force that is.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So when you grew up, you you said you grew up in Venezuela. You know, what what what was that like?
SPEAKER_01:I grew up in the middle of political unrest. It was constant conflict and political unrest. I mean, our schools would get shut down because there was a military coup, not because there was a snowstorm or um it was, you know, kidnappings, it was uh banks going bankrupt, it was criminal activity, it was a lot of shit. Um at the same time, there is this beautiful culture that is all about community and taking care of each other and everything. So it was this this dichotomy of dark and light. And um growing up, I just pretty early decided that I was gonna I was gonna dedicate my life to ending conflict, ending that that that I had been seeing for so long.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, what what what's your like what age were you at your first memory of of that kind of conflict? Because you know, I I don't I don't know all of you who listen, you know, the hundreds of you, you know, what's your experience is in history, especially geopolitical history and and the nature of the conflict that's been in Central and South America for, you know, decades now, certainly as long as I've been alive. But you know, being from a region where where conflict to us is whether someone's building a house too big next to us. You know, it's very privileged, you know, space and it doesn't feel like privilege when you're here, but it is what it is. Uh, you know, for you, you know, you you were you were in the middle of what was you know tantamount to a revolution that was that was overcoming the whole country.
SPEAKER_01:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:And as a child, like when's your first memory of like this is not good? Like this, like it doesn't feel safe here.
SPEAKER_01:I think it was as early as probably thinks or seventh grade um when we couldn't go back to school because it was martial law and militaries were out in the streets and you were hearing gunshots, and my parents all of a sudden were putting mattresses by the window so that in case a lost bullet threw, you know, came by, you know, we were okay. Um it wasn't scary for us at the time though, for us as children. Yeah, because I think I had the parents that made everything an adventure, kind of like life is beautiful. My mom was always like, Yeah, we don't have school today, so that's great. We get to be home. And somehow, you know, they weren't going sneaking out, trying to buy food and everything, so that we didn't have to go out so much. Um so yeah, there was that. And but there were periods. It wasn't like oh it was always like that. It was just like all of a sudden one day you get up and you couldn't.
SPEAKER_00:Couldn't go to school that day.
SPEAKER_01:But you know, in other days everything was fine as well.
SPEAKER_00:Did did you live in a city or or were you kind of more countryside?
SPEAKER_01:I lived uh my my family were farmers, they uh had coffee plantations, banana plantations, um, lots of land. And when the economy took a hit, uh my parents had to find a different way of livelihood. And so they moved to Caracas, the city.
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And that was a big that was a big shock for me because I grew up in the farms. Yeah. Uh and so we were there for a few years until they got fed up of it and we ended up moving to Margarita Island, which is an island off the coast of Venezuela in the Caribbean. And that's really where I spend the rest of my my time there.
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, it did, it's uh I mean, the the concept's so foreign to me. You know, of of like having to flee, not wanting to flee. There's there's a difference, you know, in in that existence. And, you know, especially now, you know, we we consume so much data that we can't even, you know, there's no way to even rationalize around it, but you know, we're watching, you know, these countries right now in in in conflict. And uh, you know, it seems normative, but but that's a really weird way to grow up, you know, and and have it feel normal.
SPEAKER_01:That now that you put it that way, yep.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it's it it's uh I mean it's normal to you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm sitting across someone who kind of had to flee. Yeah, you're like, uh, it's no big deal.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We went from the countryside once they took all the farms and you know, yes, uh, then moved the city, and then that got weird. So we moved to an island, and and that's what felt safe, and that's where I grew up.
SPEAKER_01:That's where I grew up, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it it really also speaks of how shelter we are here in Santa Cruz, you know, and how how lucky we are and fortunate to to have a stable community, you know, and there's a lot of stuff going on right now, politically, economically, and all that. And that that is what it looked like at the beginning, you know, and if we don't pay attention, you know, things could get really bad as well.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but there is still a lot of good in the US. There's still a lot of good in Santa Cruz. And um, one of the things that I love the most besides the redwood trees is the people. You know, I'm thinking, we're constantly thinking, okay, so where would we live if we left Santa Cruz? And my question to that is who do I want to be with? What kind of people do I want to be with if I moved? And the answer has always been I really like Americans. And it's, you know, sometimes it's hard to say that because Americans have such a bad reputation in other countries, especially if you travel. But there is a solid there is heart, and there is a lot of really good people here that sometimes they don't really get the the coverage, the news coverage and the media coverage.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, and again, it wasn't my intent necessarily to to head down this path, but you know, we had this conversation pre-election and and um again another little light soliloquy here. You know, when my middle son got into the business the way he did back in 2016, uh joining the military, and and I got introduced to the community. You know, it it was you know, this new reality that that what I had raised was someone who was willing to to fight for particular freedoms that are afforded here in the U.S. And you know, including the right to vote, you know, things like that. Um you know, over these few election cycles, as you and I have talked over the course of years. Um one of my favorite conversations in this last election cycle was was one with you about the right to vote and the idea that is America. You know, I'd love to hear in your words about this idea of what America is and what it represents to the world because I I think it's something that I think especially here in Santa Cruz we take for granted. You know, the the level of freedom to be nimbies that we have, you know, not in my backyard, no, I don't like your house, like like this kind of weird tone entitlement tone that that really is a such a part of this place. And I and like it's always strange to watch because you know you have somebody that that moves here and then they adopt the same attitude. You know, they they want to be welcomed, then all of a sudden they're not as welcoming as as as they wanted to be welcomed here. And and so this this area really lives in a strange contrast of that behavior of like, on the one hand, I I don't know that there's a place in the world that has more freedom of expression than Santa Cruz, California, and yet has this really chippy attitude about anybody else that would express these things. And and you know, I I I love Santa Cruz because of that. It's such a representation of what America is, you know, and this little tiny little spot, you know, that's that again is is filled with so many, you know, bright, brilliant people that are attracted to this place, but lives in conflict with itself and the nature of what America is. I mean, it it it it cracks me up because it's like, you know, I I have it in droves, so you know I never want anybody to move here. You know, like I got that classic Santa Cruz chip. You know, it's like you like it, good. I hope you had a nice visit. You know, goodbye. Yeah, we're we're the goodbye part of Aloha.
unknown:See you later.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, goodbye.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I can tell you from the outside looking in. You know, um America, you know, the American dream is very much alive. Uh, you know, I grew up knowing that I had been born in the US, I always knew that I was gonna go back to that country that I had never been to to study like my parents did. And a lot of people have their own illusion or dream about America, and that is very much prosperous, that is very much opportunity, that is freedom, that is expression, and that is that you get to be what you want to be. And that that is still what we sell uh to the world through Hollywood and everything else. Now, when you come here, there are a lot of people that you realize that don't know about the rest of the world. And they're very much self-absorbed and in their own little bubbles. And that's kind of um a shocking, that was shocking for me, how little they knew about us or the world. Yeah, while while the whole world actually knows about the US. Um but in general, I think what I see is you know there is a saying in Venezuela, you create reputation and you can fall asleep. Meaning if if your reputation, if your image is good, then it doesn't matter what you buck it up with or what you do, because you're always gonna be good in the face of whoever is looking at you. But what's happening now, especially with education, with the economy, with political drama, yeah, is that yeah, let's call it drama because I don't know that's even unrest yet.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and there's some unrest, but but like it's just drama. It's American drama.
SPEAKER_01:It's is that when you look at it deeply with a microscope, it's really not America is not really the best country in the world anymore. And it can be, right? But there are a lot of things that are breaking up, and we need to wake up and be the American dreamers that we are to be able to rebuild. And right now we're in the process of dissolution, a process of breaking everything that is not working, and it's gonna take all of us to rebuild what that American dream is. It might be something different. Um, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, it it certainly as I'm there there's another friend. You know, when all the you know, when when the Democrats ordained their candidate without voting, you know, we we were presented you know with a real dilemma, at least on my part, on the political side. It's the first time in my lifetime where it seemed like election was being handled, you know, that that there really was no input, you know, from the people about where the direction the country was going to go next. And, you know, I I had another close friend of mine, you know, because we talked about these things, and you know, he he he he had already voted, so it was funny. You know, he cast his vote early, and he doesn't like to be influenced by other people, so until he voted, he didn't talk to anybody about who he was gonna vote for. And he sat in my chair and and and we and we talked through this stuff at ad nauseum. And he goes, Okay, go. I I I I want to hear what your problem is currently with the Democratic Party and all this kind of stuff. Just go ahead and go. You you know, I I want to hear you now that you can't influence me. And not that I voted for Trump, just so you all know, I'll I'll go on the record that I did not vote for Trump. I stayed true to my blue team. Uh that being said, I I was very dissatisfied with the process, but but he listened to my 30-minute tirade of like this is just evil and wrong. And he looked at me and smiled and goes, Michael, it's just an idea. This thing. You know, America's and he said this to me. He goes, America's a promise that we'll keep trying. And you know, between that conversation and look, I mean your data points are going to be more uh saturated than my data points as far as you know the level of intelligence that you worked in. Like you know more than I do. That's that's the big point. You know, what I'm seeing alone alarms me. But that being said, you know, I asked you the simple question, do you vote? And you just smile and said, Yes, of course. Like it's the one thing we can do. And that weird hope, you know, knowing your background was was really good for me, you know, because it lived with this premise that, you know, it's just an idea, and this is where we get to participate in that idea, no matter how we feel, yeah, you know, about whoever it is that's running or whatever things. Uh I mean, it's yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, I think that's a really good point. The idea is always malleable, and so it's up to us to what we make it. And if we're always focusing on the doom and gloom, we're not focused on what we can make it, what that idea is. You know, it's it's my my that was my own journey. I always knew that I wanted to end conflict, and I went to I was obsessed with understanding the nature of conflict, the people affected by it. When, you know, when I was 21, I decided that I was going to change the world. And I went to countries that were full of conflict, like Vietnam, Serbia, Northern Ireland, Cuba, and I dedicated my entire life to international security, intelligence. I had top secret clearances and I went to school for international disarmament and mediation and conflict resolution. And I crashed. I crashed hard because I realized that it was not something that I could do alone, that I wasn't going to be able to change the world by myself or even with a group. It's a it the the challenges are big. And I went through that period of dissolution, and long story short, I came back realizing that it wasn't ending conflict that I was being driven or that I was driven anymore. But it was actually the creation of peace. And that having that change in focus is huge. And for all of us, you know, if we're gonna be focusing on the doom and gloom, we're losing sight of what we want. Yeah, what's actually available. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Is it okay if we circle around here a little bit? Of course. Yeah. Um, at least for me on my own personal journey, you know, not unlike you, I was a very driven person. You know, for me, it it got to live uh under the disguise of being a pastor and trying to have an effect on this community. Um and, you know, certainly in retrospect, I didn't really realize that at the time success was not success. Right? As much as you might be having success with people, that this thing inside of me of disillusion was still growing because you're seeing more problems. You know, uh if that's what you're looking for. Like like that that's that's what you're finding. If you're looking for problems, you're gonna find more problems. And in a tiny community that's shaped the way that ours is, there's a lot of problems here. And they come in the form of humans, and the problems are very real.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And you know, they can collect and become gangs or particular subsets of groups. You know, these people can do things to harm communities. You know, we we can create programs to try to disrupt that, you know, all all these community-minded things that I I was a part of, not just within church but outside of church. You know, what when you start seeing all the problems and all the data that informs those problems, you know, you know, it it's overwhelming. And you and as far as you know anxiety goes, the anxiety of seeing the problem is a very real thing because the problem grows. Yeah. Like once once you start identifying how problems manifest, the anxiety comes with it because that's what you're looking for.
SPEAKER_01:And that's that's where you have to be careful because we are the the source of agency for ourselves. And when we go down the rabbit hole of fear, fear creates more fear. And war and conflicts are acts of fear. You know, global conflicts often show up in the news as war and violence, but you know, we could argue that these large-scale conflicts are a reflection of the struggles with within our own minds that shape our communities and ultimately ripple out into the world. And um that that's that's my work now. It's really going within. And really, where can we all take responsibility for the image that we're seeing now? And uh, this is all happening right now, but we're all part of it. Yeah, and yeah, and uh not allowing ourselves to go down with fear because when we are in a fearful state, you know, anything, media, propaganda, we just become susceptible to so much. And we become fearful of the other just because the other person speaks weird or has an accent or looks different. Um, they're not from Santa Cruz.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and so another surfer. Yes, so that creates even more confusion, and that's what we don't have. In order to get out of all the horrors, because there there is a lot of problems in the world. One thing that we don't want is actually go down with it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I have so many questions. Yes. Let's let's see if we can if I can harness my heart and all the places it's going. Getting back to me. All about me, of course. But but truly, though, you know, as someone who set himself in a system that has a very similar framework to what we're talking about. The this one-to-one, you know, work on yourself with others, you know, concept. You know, in in Christian world that would be called discipleship. Well, it's in every world it's called discipleship in some way. You know, this kind of shepherding prospect where you are very introspective and you're focused on on having personal peace and spreading that personal peace around to others, for others, with others. You know, and the messaging I think you find I don't know if you find it in Christianity, but Jesus' message, you know, of of you know, do unto others as you would want to be done. The the the simple prospect. I think this is one of the one of the gaps, you know, as you were speaking in this reality of what does personal peace look like. That's the work that I've been doing, you know, of attempting to uh not just get more data, interpret more data, but actually live in a place of peace and let that peace be the thing that brings peace to others.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:I believe that a lot of time in our modern culture there's a disassociation that becomes the thing, right? People spend more time with themselves really getting away from others. I don't like while there's times for that, that's not the point. The point is further integration, you know, it after that introspective work on it, how can my peace now be a benefit to others just by being present?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, not even having any important conversation. Uh it it's certainly a perspective that I've been trying to take with this podcast. Like it's not content-driven. I'm just sitting with people I see and having whatever conversation we have collectively, but but there there's been a theme as as those of you who listen are recognizing that I try to surround myself with people that are community-minded, you know, that that the things that they're doing are not just a reflection on themselves, but they're a reflection for the community, that the average person can do the things. It may not be this dynamic version that we all celebrate and what we call success, but these interpersonal relationships matter, and your effect on however small your community is matters. And if your work is not translating from yourself to other people, is that really work? And I I think you know, we're such consumers of data. Oftentimes, you know, the this I I there's there's so many different ways of approaching this. This what appears to be introspection isn't really that at all. It's kind of more removal from from interaction. Yeah, and I think and we're getting way too independent. I mean that that's that's becomes the issue.
SPEAKER_01:That's a really good point, and that's a really good distinction. I think there is a time and a place when we're going through something like a major transition in our lives where we do need to regroup. And some of us actually do better by being alone than by being distracted with the outside world. I mean, I went through that when I came back from New Mexico and I had dropped out of the security world entirely because I was disillusioned with the system. I went to the Redwoods and I spend days and nights in the nature with no food, no shelter. I was just there by myself with my thoughts, the towering trees, the stillness of nature, completely disconnected from communication and the outside world. And I needed that. And I needed it so much that I went back every year for many years after that. But there is a point where you have to realize that or ask yourself, are you doing this as a coping mechanism? Or are you doing your this to get better as a person and actually be a good imp positive impact in the world?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and and it's okay if I interrupt. Yeah, yeah. The and that has been interesting for me in what I've just put myself through this last year, right? Right. I was getting behind all of the data points that come to my mind. You know, how do I really get quiet? You know, my invol mine involved a puppy named Charlie and mornings spent together holding my dog until the thoughts that I woke up with went away.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so that could be 10 minutes, yeah, it could be an hour, you know, of like let my mind get quiet.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But what's been interesting is like reintegration is really hard. You know, it's one once you realize that most of what your mind is doing is just noise, trying to keep itself busy, as though you know the mind should is 90% subconscious, right? It's it's just like I I I have all these thoughts, I like to keep myself busy. Here's 10%. You know, you make these decisions and I'll I'll do the other 90%.
SPEAKER_01:And that's where that's where community comes into play.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:For reintegration. Uh we cannot reintegrate into the world without having a a strong community, or at least creating one for yourself. Um I have been leading, and we haven't really talked about this, but I've been leading up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we we we'll get into that like like deeply, but go ahead and share, share the front end of it.
SPEAKER_01:For forest immersion is what I call forest immersion, where I take people to the the forest, and we spent uh four nights and four days, the way that I did it with my with the elder that taught me how to do it. And one of the first things that they know, and they make sure that that they do, is that these practices are done in community because the community is what holds you. You know, they know too well that one of the first things to suppress is um belonging. Like the belonging, when you don't have belonging, it becomes harder to do anything else. And I think that's why it's been so hard for us to leave Santa Cruz too, is because we now belong here. Yeah. And and you know, my husband is born and raised here. Um But yeah, community is a key, key part of to reintegration.
SPEAKER_00:You know, again, I I kind of apologize up front to you because I didn't really have an intent coming in to move move the conversation this way, but I I I want to back up a little bit.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, go for it.
SPEAKER_00:You know, and again, expressing through my lens, you know, what what happened to me. Um and I'm sharing it mostly because I think it'll be relatable. You know, that that's that's why. Uh and and I'm gonna go macro on everybody. You know, part of the disillusion of the Soviet Union, which seems a very strange topic. I love it, I love it. Was that was that they started collecting data on their people and they discovered they had a problem. And they the attempt was to collect enough data to kill the problem. And you can't kill it all, but the data collection doesn't stop. And they outdated themselves and focused in in essence on a problem and found themselves in an arms race with with with a country that had more money and it bankrupted them. And what isn't talked about a lot, and I th should I think it should be focused on, and I'm certainly gonna continue to focus on it myself, is that the data was the problem, the collection, the focus, you know, because they were trying to collect the information they thought was the problem and it drove them to bankruptcy. And that's a country for me. Same thing for me. It drove me my data collection on problems drove me to personal bankruptcy. You know, that that the problem became so big, I became so small in it, even though I'm having this dramatic impact in our community, the data was informing me otherwise.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's where our journey are very are very serious.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yeah, yeah. And that that was that was kind of the intent was was to hit that hit that bridge that that you know, such good intent, right? It's like, wow, we may have this world war happening. What do I do to stop these things from happening? What do I need to know to help that that moment stop because humanity is important? You know, it lives in this weird framework of really, really good intention.
SPEAKER_01:And then all of a sudden you are down the rabbit hole of all the problems and all the data.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and overwhelmed with it. And in my estimation, I think that's what we're watching happen to Americans, you know, that they're receiving data from and a lot of the time it's not real real. It's not real, yeah. Like I hate to tell you, but you're not getting the data. You know, it's it's really unnerving and and yeah, that's you know, and again, I'm my my my and the people that I know, including you in intelligence, you know, in the in the minor framework that I was in when my son was briefly in Coronado, who he never made it to the thing, you know, to the sharp end of the spear. All that being said, when he went in, all of a sudden I had this group of people emerge who had been watching him the whole time. And that was both uneasy and also very securing of like, oh, this is a family. You know, that they all came out of the woodwork, you know, that that, hey, you're part of the family now. Yeah, you know, we've we've got your son. And they were all around me for years. Like, like I said, really like, oh, this is super creepy, but at the same time, like, okay, I I have I have to, I, I, I can talk to this person, that person, and they're in the community, and I'll know truly how my son is doing. Yeah, not the data that's going to be coming from the data point that I'm supposed to look at.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You know. But that is also the nature of data. And you know what you know, I don't even I don't think it's conspiratorial in any way. I just think the media makes a lot of money off of scaring us half to death. So we'll watch tomorrow. It doesn't matter which media source. You know, you you can c you can collect your media from wherever you are, but the the story is still the same. They're making money.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and it's limited. And none of us will ever know. You know, and in light of that, you know, again, this this gets into the God-shaped hole, right, that sits in all of us, that somehow we're all building our own towers of Babel, right? That w we think we can aspire to the spot of knowing, and somehow that will fix what's going on inside of us.
SPEAKER_01:And you can fix it with knowledge.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It comes down to real human connections and relationships matter.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and and the experience that we have with one another and these communities that we develop in those experiences. And I will really actually want to use that as a segue of you know what why I got to get my hook in here on to get this interview is that you just did a uh TED talk in Folsom.
SPEAKER_01:A TEDx talk.
SPEAKER_00:A TEDx, yeah. Okay. TEDx, the extension. Um but uh, you know, about this forced immersion thing, and and and again, I'm gonna back up on you again. Yes, this is something we have in common. You know, that that, you know, we got to a breaking point. This is where my regret lives for you, you know, with me, with you, is that you know, I had somebody in my circle that I didn't recognize was going through, you know, what in essence is a catastrophic moment, you know, that that the person you had set yourself to become, you know, that you had dedicated your whole life, that you had structured your whole being towards to the point of death, yeah, if necessary, for the well-being of all of us, let's just get down to brass tacks, that you realize that the structure that you had to operate in was not going to have the answer. And correct. So in as much of that story that you want to share, I I I think it would be helpful for the listener to kind of understand the nature of that kind of tragedy. I've certainly more than expressed it on the podcast of like you know, one only one person can do so much, and even a team, like it it's not it's not that you can't fix things, you just can't fix it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, this thing. And and you know, for me that there's a loneliness that that came with that, because you you keep going, you keep doing, you keep on this path of like at least to my end, I can do the best thing I can. And even that wasn't very helpful, yeah, you know, in the end. And so what was that journey like for you? Because I do really want you to share about what this forced immersion project is and and what it's done for you to this point, because I think it's important to understand there are many roads to healing. Yes. And and that's that is again part of what I want to bring to all of our conversations, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I I think I already hinted a little bit around my journey of wanting to end conflict and having done all these things and diving deep into academia, which is another process of diving deep into your own mind because you're just thinking and digging knowledge, and that's all I was doing for a long time. But then when I graduated from graduate school and went back to my career and intelligence, um there was a period of major dissolution when I saw that a lot of the intelligence that we were putting out was not being taken into consideration in the decisions that were being made. Meaning governments will do what governments will do, regardless of the information. They all have their agendas. And that was a big reality check for me. It it shouldn't have been when you think about it.
SPEAKER_00:You know, because but I was young, and you had hope.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And I realized that I had just spent my entire life at that point studying and focusing on this particular issue when that was not that was not the answer. The answer was not waiting for the people in power to hand down peace. It wasn't in policy, even. Um, it came down to real human connections, like I said. Um, the people, the people that we are, and because we're all participatory in everything that the drama that is happening.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And um at that point, I had I didn't know what I was gonna do with my life. All of a sudden I had a focus and I didn't have it for the first time ever.
SPEAKER_00:So, how old were you when when like that deep dark realization happened? Because I I I view you as being quite young.
SPEAKER_01:I was in my 26, 27, 27, 28, I think something mid-20s.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I uh because I mean this is a really big deal.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:You know, in the sense that you know, it kind of hit me around 40. It was early. You know, if if you're looking at uh how recorded history generally works, it's generally like at middle age, yeah, you know, I'm a little ahead on the curve. You're very, very far ahead on the curve, you know, in that sense of like this is work you do when you're middle-aged. You were began it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That well, that took me on a journey of what the hell am I gonna do when I grow up? And what am I doing? And where am I going? That's how I ended up in Santa Cruz, because this was a place that was the only place that I could hope could call home at that point. And um my whole journey became about learning what was it that I wanted to do. And and from there I realized that I needed to go in and deal with a lot of things that that I wasn't that I was putting off, that it didn't have anything to do with the outside world or did, but I needed to digest and process in my own ways. And that took me into a pursuit of different ways of healing, coping, uh finding modalities that um that ultimately brought me peace and connection with who I really was inside. I mean, I was I went from everything to ayahuasca journeys to darkness retreats to um, I mean, I'm talking, I spent six days in a pitch dark room. You couldn't see your hand in front of you, it was so dark. And I had one of the most amazing experiences there. And we can talk about that in some other podcasts. But um, but really the practice, the practice that really that where I found the most solace was the practice of forest immersion.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So let's talk about forest immersion and from a very practical standpoint. Like what like what is it, you know, like as a function?
SPEAKER_01:It's uh it's a practice that has been shared by many cultures around the world. Um to open the heart, calm the mind, and ground deeply into the body. It's a form of nature therapy in a sense. Um, and I say it has been shared by many cultures around the world because every culture has sort of their own flavor of it. You know, the indigenous people had something called the Vision Quest. Um, the, you know, the Aboriginal Australians have the walkabout where they go out into nature, you know, the Hindus and everyone has a way to commune with nature that is significant for them, that has a way to open themselves and know themselves. Uh, I met this amazing woman. Uh she was an elder, a wisdom keeper from the Meshika traditions, and uh she introduced me to this practice of forest immersion. And she was taking people to the forest to spend four days and four nights with no food, no water, no shelter. Uh, I'm not I'm not saying that you should do this. Do not do this at home. Um, but at that time I was so desperate to find something that actually worked. And what I love about this is that there were no substances involved. And you are just there community with commuting with nature and yourself. And you go through many different stages to presence, to awe and reverence, to compassion for yourself and others, to actually coming out wanting to do something good for the world. And and that's what I'm trying to recreate with the immersions that I want to do moving forward, not as arduous as the abuela Molly Melly used to do them. Um, but uh um a variation of that where we actually can use nature as a tool for peace building and reconciliation. So coming it, come bringing it full full circle with what my original intent was, which was you know, being being a force for peace in the world.
SPEAKER_00:So what does that involve? You know, it's uh, you know, the the minute I hear, you know, a week, no supplies other than a sleeping bag, I'm out.
SPEAKER_01:It's not for everyone.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but but but I but I mean but but there's certainly having known you for a while, yes, um, you don't strike me as the camping type. You know, when I meet you. Yeah, I don't like to tent camp. I've never been that guy. Yeah there's a lot of tent campers that are delighting in hearing about something like this, but there's the vast majority of us who don't like to tent camp, hearing like no tent, no nothing, no water. You know, what what what what is the actual you know process of of you know you're guided, you you know, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:The processes of the forest immersion now for me, the ones that I that I like to offer for people, um, we do we do not have a tent and we do um have comfort, we do have a sleeping bag, we do have a pillow, and there's no flashlight, um, but we do have water and people are fasting. And the idea is that when you're depriving yourself from food, um, you're also depriving yourself or taking yourself out from one more distraction. And the idea is to help your mind not be so distracted. And it's not an easy journey by all means, it's uh it's a courageous, guided journey of uh being cut off of all your distractions and your stimulations and all the different things. And you go into the underworld of your own mind, and that's a time to do it. Because you have so much time and space, you start digesting and processing things that memories that you didn't even know you had in the back of your mind. And when your mind has so much time to bring so many experiences to the front front, to the forefront, uh, you little by little start chipping away of all this heaviness and baggage that you just you've been holding on for so many years, and to the point where you just come to full clarity and presence of the present moment. And the I the hope is that you'll have enough time to actually clear your mind and not have to think about much so that you are actually able to witness what's in front of you and what is in front of us every day, that we don't get to see it because we're not present. And the awe and reverence that that comes out of that um it's it changes you in a in a very different way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so let's talk about fasting a little bit as a practice. Um you know, because it's such a combination of what you do, you know, and and I've incorporated fasting as a practice since I was a very young person, you know, as as a Christian, it was a regular practice on my part where you'd spend a day or two, you know, not yeah, water, you know, maybe a juice. But you know, the idea is just to be present with God. You know, that that you know, we don't need all the things we think that we need. And there's nothing like being a little bit hungry and going through that process of letting go of that. You know, that that's that's the process. I think as it's kind of presented in in in these religious structures that we have. You know, I am one of these people that has gone on longer fasts. You know, I certainly I did three days just water one time, and and you know, for me not that it was it was it was easy. Okay, you know, it's easy for me to not do things or do things. You know, so uh from a practical standpoint, anybody who's used fasting as a process, it's pretty easy to go two days without food once you get once you get past those moments, you know, but but still not do the work.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:This this is the reality that you know you're still focused on not, you're not focused on doing, yeah, you know, which at least in the Christian practice, it was meant to get you focused on when you feel this urgency from your body to be focused on just how big God is, and just allowing his presence to be present in you because you don't think you don't need what you think you need.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I should mention that when you're doing a forest immersion, you are sitting or laying, but you're not re you're in a circle that you choose over by a tree, um, and you're not moving that much, so you're not spending too much energy. So it's not terribly hard to fast uh for that many days. And something that happens is that your instincts that have been dormant for so many years, but you have in you because your body is a human body that has evolved through thousands of years to be in nature, all of a sudden wake up. And you are seeing things in a very different way from a very different perspective. Colors, I could see colors in the night in dark pitch night. I could see how everything is so interconnected, like the wind and the seed, the sun, and how everything changes and moves. The sounds of the birds are different in the morning than they are in the afternoon, and what the sounds are at night is different. Um everything moves in a very slow way. You could hear when us when a leaves hit the ground in such a vibrant way. You're awakened in in a your senses are awakened in a very different way than normally you go around the world. And that's a feeling worth experimenting with. That no other drugs or substances can can can give you is just being present. And and that that feeling of being awakened is what takes you to realizing that you're so much smaller than you thought, and that there is so much that you don't understand. Yeah, there's so much life around you that you were not even aware of, and you're seeing it for a very almost the beauty of the world for the very first time, and that it's what takes you closer to God, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Well, I I I mean, look whom I call God, you know, in in my experience that way said that he loved everything about this planet, that's why he came. It wasn't just us, you know, it w it was like if you can get that, then you can get the eternal that I love it all. You know, that that and it was really me spending time in the forest. This is where we have things in common, you know, that once you get the city out of your head and you're sitting there in the dark, staring up at just how small this planet is, and what sh is shown in the sky, and then you hear that beetle, you know, five feet away and their feet going over the sticks. Yes. You know, and you see them because of the fire, but I hadn't seen them before, and it took darkness to see the beetle making the noises because everything's so quiet and you're so aware of the sounds around you because you're listening for the coyotes too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because they might be approaching or the mountain lions, you know, whatever else. That this when you're immersed with nature, all of a sudden you're you're these other senses, you're very aware of everything that's that's going on around you. So yeah, I'm not entirely disconnected from you know, that there certainly have been more than one of these moments in my life where you're just in it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And you feel the heat coming off the ground.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And all of a sudden the air's not cold. Even though the air was cold two seconds ago, but you could feel it. They're very energy coming from from literally the dirt around you, and then laying in that dirt.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, those those things have all been moments or expressions that I've I've, you know, Kim and I have been able to do. In our little place up in the up in the hills. And you know, it's actually been quite some time since I've spent more than three days, you know, undoing what happens down here, even though we're, you know, we're we're sitting here staring at trees in the middle of a podcast. Like it's the location that we're sitting in is beautiful visually, but we're not in it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, we're we we got microphones in front of us and all the creature comforts.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And that's when, you know, the fact that you don't like camping or I don't like, I mean, I do like my dark room and the really soft sheets and complete comfort. I'm a comfort snap for sure. But that trade-off for that experience to me is completely worth it. And our bodies, like I said, they're they're built to be in nature. And so it's it becomes not really a hard thing to do, but actually a therapeutic thing to put your body in the elements that is born to be in for just a period of time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So so let's talk about the therapeutic nature of, you know, you can share it personally or from other people's words, about like what happens to your body, you know, post or in the middle of these things, like how you truly let go of of things that you didn't realize you were holding on to, you know, to bring comfort. You know, it's uh you know, we I'm averse to it because it kind of sounds so hippy-dippy, you know, but but you know, we we've always joked around that we're the quiet hippies in the group, you know, you know, from Aptos of a group of friends, you know, like we we immediately go hug a tree whenever we're we show up at our cabin and and and say our thankful prayers for all the surroundings and and talk to the rocks and things like that. Um, but just this reality that that there is a God surrounding all of us through through the very existence of the planet, you know, that this thing that is also God in some way. I I you know I don't know how it all works, but I know that it works. You know, it's it's amazing.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think everyone's experience is different. Um, everyone goes into the forest with a different intention. And also, I mean, it's something that could be done for clearing yourself from a particular trauma to coming up with the next amazing composung composition that if you're a musician, you you have time for creativity and you'll you'll get your mind clear for that. So it could be done for so many different things. And what the body goes through is if you actually get to do it for four days, uh, because you know you could do it for one night or two nights, you know, as long as you're doing it at least overnight, uh, it would be considered a forest immersion. But the longer you go without food, the the body becomes, it starts to shut down areas that usually don't get to rest, like your digestive system. All of a sudden it doesn't have any more food to digest. And so that is taking a rest. And there have been so many studies of what happens when people fast, but it's uh it's a detoxifying effect that it has, it's a healing effect. You know, I have done fasts even without going to the forest, and I feel like my inflammation and everything just goes way down because it's it's healing your body. But in a sense, because we you know we're built the way we are, your body is almost kind of getting ready to die, even though you're not gonna obviously you're not gonna die. Um but I think it starts shutting down areas that you don't need to work, you know, you you need to preserve energy, and your your body just works the way it works, you know. You're not doing any any of it yourself, it's your subconscious mind. Um but then your mind starts appreciating what's really important at that moment. You start remembering, it's like when people say, Oh, when I had a near death experience, I had uh the movie of my life go in front of me. It's a very similar experience, but in a very slow process. Yeah, yeah. Where you're remembering all the greatest hits of your life. And that really is your mind telling you this is this is what I appreciate, this is what I'm here for, this is why I'm in this lifetime to do. Yeah, and that's why you get so much clarity because you're not only clear of your mind, but you're also being shown what's important, what matters. And that's why everyone comes out with a clear sense of direction and resilience and with uh with purpose, because they get to see, you know, that's why the nations call it a vision quest, because you're following that vision. And I mean, if we're lucky, you're not only shown one vision, but many visions, you know, and let alone all the dreams that you're having in the forest, which is pretty magical as well.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, so that is something that I personally appreciate so much about this practice. Yeah is that you get in touch with with what matters.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it it's this paradox, right? We're not accepting nature, nature's accepting us.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:And you're allowing yourself that moment of being accepted by your surroundings. Yeah. And you know, as humans, you know, w where whatever you believe from an evolutionary standpoint, you know, biology or or a God-given standpoint, you know, the the ability of humans to overcome nature is what makes us unique. You know, we we don't have to necessarily work in synchronicity with it. We we we can build things to remove ourselves from it.
SPEAKER_01:Dominate.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And and you know, that domination is such a part of humanity now, it's just intuitive to us. But what it takes from us is that ability to be fully integrated into the thing that's already accepted us that could expel us at any moment.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, that this you know, how small, how small we really are. Well, it wants to heal us.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's it it yeah, it it's it's astounding to me, you know, now as we're talking about it to people in a room rather than just being in my own mind, you know, about these prospects, about how important and vital that is. And, you know, it was funny as you're talking. This again, it's you know, kind of kind of away from what we're talking about. But as you were talking, I was realizing, you know, I I do intermittent fasting.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So when when I when I'm on point with jujitsu and really getting all my workouts in, I'm intermittent fasting.
SPEAKER_02:Nice.
SPEAKER_00:Then I have my fast day. And the clarity on my fast day, you know, when when I know my last meal was at seven, I am not going to eat till 8:30 that next day. And there's going to be a very hard two workouts I'm putting in that day. I'll generally work out in the morning. Great. Then I'll do an evening one too. The level of clarity and energy I have on my final workout, then having worked in between those two times, and just the you know, the hyper focus, because there you are not being informed by your body anymore. You know, your stomach does not get to say things to you at that point because you prepared your body for yeah, there's no food coming.
SPEAKER_01:And the fact that you're exercising be in between also is you're fast foring your body to that.
SPEAKER_00:I'm grabbing three days, you know, but by doing it the way I do it, which is the point of doing it the way I do it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, and all the science around that kind of stuff. But but, you know, as like I said, as you were talking, I'm just thinking about, oh yeah, that is when I'm the most clear on the mat. You know, you're using your energy right, you know your explosion's going to be very limited. So you're just aware of everything that's happening to you. And so you're conscious of not trying things that are not going to work.
SPEAKER_01:And the appreciation that comes after that, just having your first meal after a fast, your first glass of water, your just the flavors are just so much more vibrant. And your appreciation is is, I mean, appreciation is key for life, right? And if you can if you can actually put yourself in that state so that you can be appreciative for everything you have, that's a happy life right there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. So not to hammer this in too much, but but I really uh you know, again, my focus is really not just the people, but the place. You know, in light of what you just shared, what makes Santa Cruz feel like home to you? Is it that there's just a bunch of other weirdos like you that that you know we run into each other and like we have these things in common. Like, like, what is it for you? Because I'm weird a bunch of different ways, and I keep running into other weirdos the more that I'm open to it. It's like this place is so cool. Like, I don't ever want to leave here. I go a bunch of places. It's like, nah. Yeah, you know, I'm about to go to Santa Barbara on Friday tomorrow. And it's a place I love, but I'm like, I wonder if I'll connect with it. Like it's it's the first on my list, right? If if I leave here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Santa Barbara's the spot.
SPEAKER_01:Santa Cruz became my home without I was not expecting, I was not expecting to come to California in the first place. Um, I came here for graduate school, and that's because I met someone who told me about the program here. I was going to the East Coast all along. And uh Santa Cruz welcomed me with open arms through that journey of dissolution and building myself again. And the fact that I was able to do that in uh such an open-minded place um where we can have these conversations and they're actually not weird.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, at all.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and you know, if you guys are thinking we're weird, we are. Yes, whatever. But uh but it has been my cradle in a sense. Um, everything from the nature here is just stunning and the redwoods and the people, and it's so safe, you know, coming from a country that is brittle with conflict. Um, yeah, sure, we have a lot of different issues.
SPEAKER_00:It's just walk by.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's safe, it's beautiful. We have an amazing climate. You know, it's not snowing, it's not freezing outside, it's not terribly hot. I mean, there's so many amazing things about Santa Cruz, but it's the fact that I have been able to find solace here in such a natural way. It is my home, and it is the place that I have been for longer than anywhere else in my life, and I have been to many places.
SPEAKER_00:I'd love to hear this perspective before I asked my last question. You've been here long enough. I th you're on your third maciation of Santa Cruz. You know, and and these maciations are happening fast. You know, you came here when downtown was crawling out of you know, a catastrophic event, you know, with the earthquake. Um moved here with Braden, uh, got to see downtown emerge, see it now crumble again due to other issues. Um we're facing a very interesting prospect here with with the amount of money and things that have moved in. You know, you you could you and I could go ad nauseum about economics and and its effect on communities and things like that. You know, as you know, I'm I'm I'm moving, you know, not from here per se, but to another location. Not not not not directly because of economics, but but really because of the influence of it, you know, that that it's changing my perspective about where I've spent most of my life. You know, that that I I I w want to be in a different version of this town that I've known, to know it in in a new way, you know, not not just my little community. What has it been like for you in the short time that you've been here to see all these changes happen so rapidly? You know, someone who his whole your whole life has been about change.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Right. You know, like like like it's like change is not new to you, but home is new to you in a way. You know, like you you made a choice to be here, but this is now your home. Uh I didn't choose to be here. I'm from here. I chose to live here, but now I'm choosing to let this place be home in a new way. Like that these are real things, you know, it's not just a spot. You know, the choice to be in Santa Cruz is somehow radicalized every time you do it. Yeah, it's like, oh, you know, what's the new thing?
SPEAKER_01:I find it excited to tell you the truth. Yeah. I mean, I really because I've been someone who has been through so much change, change is normal for me. There is there is nothing constant about anything except for change, right? And the fact that San Santa Cruz is finally changing is welcome to me. Um yeah, sure, there is a lot. I mean, I didn't grow up here, so you know, I didn't I didn't grow up going to Main Beach and playing volleyball. You know, my husband talks about that a lot.
SPEAKER_02:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01:Um but I think the changes are welcome and it's inevitable, inevitable. Yeah. And um I I find change exciting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so that answers my final question.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, which is like, what's driving you towards the future? Like, what what's the thing?
SPEAKER_01:The thing is really just sharing with people um peace. And how we can we can all be on peace. I love that. That's that's really out for it's it's really to in the reach of all of us to be able to do that and become our own change makers.
SPEAKER_00:That's really good. Well, Graciela.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for taking the time.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_01:Appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00:And uh for all of you, thank you for listening. I hope you have a good rest of your day.
SPEAKER_01:Peace.