Unpacked In Santa Cruz
"Unpacked in Santa Cruz" is a homegrown podcast hosted by Michael Howard that dives into the lives, stories, and salty moments of people who call this coastal community home—or have been shaped by it in some way. Whether it's a deep conversation with local surfers opening up about mental health, or a peek behind the curtain of someone who started a one-of-a-kind food spot right here in town, every episode brings something real.
You’ll hear from folks who found healing behind the lens, built businesses from scratch, or chased massive waves thanks to a lifetime spent around our local waters. These aren’t just interviews—they’re conversations that reflect the heart and soul of Santa Cruz. Raw, reflective, and rooted in community, Unpacked in Santa Cruz brings local voices to the surface.
Unpacked In Santa Cruz
Episode 68: Nathan Tall: What The Ocean Teaches Us About Community, Courage, And Mental Health
The coastline can look calm from the cliff, but the people who watch it know better. We sit down with Nathan Tall, a 22-year-old state lifeguard raised in Aptos to trace a path from junior guards to first responder, and the story that emerges is bigger than waves: it’s about character, community, and the courage to keep showing up when the job stops being glamorous.
We start with home—how Santa Cruz shapes kids who spend summers sprinting in soft sand and tasting salt every day. Junior guards isn’t just swim tests and flags; it’s a quiet leadership lab where compassion, teamwork, and clear communication become muscle memory. That training meets sobering reality on crowded beaches and powerful swells. From drone footage at “Shark Park" that woke up our community, king-tide rescues that outpace seasonal staff, and the emotional weight of being first on scene remind us what the red shorts really mean. The pay is low, the responsibility high, and yet guards return because the people—and the purpose—are worth it.
The conversation moves into surf culture’s shift: post-pandemic crowds, eroding etiquette, and a spike in injuries at The Point. Yelling doesn’t scale; education does. We break down practical fixes any lineup can adopt, from tide timing to safe exits, and why kind, direct coaching works better than nostalgia for a rougher past. Beyond the water, we get honest about housing, mental health, and phones. Anxiety spikes in a world of infinite scroll; the antidote is agency—small, repeated wins, embodied work, and local focus. We talk stress versus anxiety, why pressure can be useful, and how gratitude grows from acceptance and clarity.
If you care about ocean safety, youth programs, first responders, or the future of Santa Cruz surf culture, this is a grounded, hopeful listen. It’s a reminder that national headlines don’t build resilient towns—neighbors do. Subscribe, share with a friend who surfs (or wants to), and leave a review with the one ocean rule you wish everyone followed.
Welcome to the Unpack and Santa Cruz Podcast. I am your host.
SPEAKER_03:Michael Howard.
SPEAKER_04:Nathan Tall. You're sitting in front of me.
SPEAKER_01:How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_04:Santa Cruz. What's the first thing you think?
SPEAKER_01:Home. That's it. You know, that's that's what this place is to me. Um being away from here for the last four years down in San Luis Obispo for college has really given me a sense of you know what this place is for me and how much I love it, how much I always missed it being down there. And not that I didn't love it down there. Um but yeah, that's the first thing that comes to mind is home.
unknown:Home, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So um Nathan and I know each other pretty well. We'll eventually get into that. But why don't you take a little bit of a moment for the audience to let us know who you are from your words?
SPEAKER_01:Man, this is the hardest question. It's weird, huh?
SPEAKER_04:Hey, so just so you know, like all of you who have listened to this, you know, you don't know what it's like to sit in front of a microphone and have someone just sitting across the room waiting to hear from you. And there's something about this, and and I do want to actually take a moment. There was this wasn't my plan, mate. How's that? That you know that it's so far I've either gotten into people just bursting into their story and their emotion at the point, but it's an oddly hard question to answer. Who are you?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it really, I mean, you it makes you take a step back and just people don't often do that to just reflect, take time to reflect on yourself and who you are. And you know, I am first and foremost, like I'm a son of two amazing parents, I'm a brother to an amazing sister, um, I'm a boyfriend to an amazing girlfriend, and I am a friend to, you know, many, many amazing people, and I am so lucky to be all of those different things. Um, I think is the way that I would start that out. Um, I was born and raised in Aptos, California. So still in the Santa Cruz bubble, I would say.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I I I I think Aptos is its own unique little little bubble.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but it says bubble inside of a bubble. I listened to your podcast with Neil and it kind of resonated, you know. There are all those little bubbles inside of the Santa Cruz bubble. Um grew up down there and it's uh, you know, like all the bubbles in Santa Cruz, they're little tight-knit communities. Um it was an amazing place to grow up. I had, I feel like a lot of freedom um growing up, and that was a a great thing. Freedom to choose the things that I wanted to do. You know, my parents didn't limit me in any sort of way, and they actually um, you know, they were always incredibly supportive of anything that I chose to do. Um I think the biggest thing that I would say that they they pushed me to do, and the the thing that I'm the most grateful for um would be junior guards. That is like the kind of foundation of my childhood, I would say. Because, you know, from the time I gained that little spark of sentience or consciousness, you know, right around your like three or four years old. Year after that, I'm five years old and I'm in junior guards. Right.
SPEAKER_04:So were you state or tola?
SPEAKER_01:I was state, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So started out at Seacliff, um down there.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So just for the audience, you know, we have multiple lifeguard agencies, Santa Cruz, Cap Tola, then State.
SPEAKER_05:Yep.
SPEAKER_04:Uh, you know, which runs the bigger portion of the show. And there are are are there three programs with state or yeah, there are.
SPEAKER_01:There um historically it was Seacliff and Twin Lakes and Manresa. And in the past 10 years, it's transitioned from Seacliff to Rio Del Mar platforms beach. Gotcha. Okay. And so that's where it's been for for about that many years now. I'd probably wrong on that number, but um so yeah, platforms, Twin Lakes, and Manresa are the three programs.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you you know, so you you you were at Seacliff and uh sorry, I interrupted interrupted.
SPEAKER_01:It's good, it's good context. Yeah. I tend to dive into things uh without giving enough context.
SPEAKER_04:Well that's that's that's my job. You you you don't need to give context. You're telling telling me about your life. That that is your life. So so you're at Seacliff and and uh that isn't I mean, Seacliff is now Shark Park.
SPEAKER_01:It is, and that is why they moved the program um just a little bit south. So, you know, it's it's still uh they're still around, they still hang out um in that area. But man, um I was talking recently to a guard who was actually my junior guard instructor, one of my junior guard instructors while I was down there. And he was like reminiscing about the first time he ever interacted with someone who had taken drone footage of that area. And I I believe it was like a a junior guard competition where we brought all the beaches to Seacliff. Um and he had a guy walk up to him with a drone camera and um the guy's just like, hey, I think you might want to see this. I think you might want to check this out. And he just shows him this video, and there's like 20 or 30 juvenile sharks just all around. And there's kids all over the water. Um and they're just like they were just like floored.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and and and again for the audience, you know, you don't know the snake, but you know, most of my audience is everywhere else, it's not here. It's pretty cool. Oh, which which is which is uh you know just just yeah, a reality. Um we don't know here in Santa Cruz whether this is just how it's been the whole time.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Or whether it's a new phenomena. There is new phenomena happening in the sense that you know sharks are being kind of spotted everywhere, and sometimes big ones in places that they've never been. So whatever the phenomena is, you know, whether it's new or old, you know, what we're beginning to see, or maybe what was introduced to us because of drones, we're now looking forward. We don't know. We just know that there are a hell of a lot of great white sharks in areas where we had no idea where they were. And yeah. And uh I Nate and I were talking about surfing in the morning this morning before we did this. And and uh you know, having moved to the South Side, because we always called him South Side Nate. Now I just have to call him Nate because we're we're we're kissing cousins now over over there. Uh you know, I I mean my my paranoia was validated over the course of the last decade with what's happened down down in in the beaches areas, and I I'm just can't quite wrap myself around surfing where I now live, you know, down the street. It's just it's something that's got my back of your brain.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I try to just put it uh away under lock and key and not think about it most of the time down there.
SPEAKER_04:I'll let the cat out of the bag a little bit. Um, you know, Nathan's also lifeguard, uh, not with my son's agency, but with state well, actually he is with my son's agency, my oldest one, uh just uh, you know, at a at a local local local precinct, as they say. Uh, anyways, uh, you know, lifeguarding's been a part of your world, you know. Uh you know, back to your story. You know, when you turned five and you got to go to guards, boom, something, something sparked inside you. And what what was that spark?
SPEAKER_01:You know, I wouldn't even say it sparked right away. Um, because there were summers where I did not want to go back to junior guards, especially those early summers when I was a little guard or a a C. Um, I was, you know, I would have days where we just got beat down in the waves, and you know, I had a bad day, and I come home to my mom, and I'm like, mom, I don't want to do junior guards anymore. And this is why I was saying I'm, you know, always forever grateful for them. You know, they just said, hey, just go tomorrow. You know, we have you signed up for the rest of the session. So, you know, you can tough it out, just keep sticking it out. And I just kept going. And by the end of each summer, I would say that I was ready and excited to go back the next summer. It wasn't always that way in the middle of the session. You know, I would have, again, like I said, I would have days where I didn't want to be there, didn't want to go back. Um, but at the end of the session, I was always looking forward to the next summer. Um and so yeah, I did junior guards for nine years, um, all the way up through 15 years old. I think my last year, I'll break down the age groups for people. The um little guards are from six to eight years old. I think I got to get in early. Um then you have your C guards who are 9 to 11 years old, and then you have your B guards who are, you know, 12 to 13 years old, and your A guards who are um they're 15 to 16 years old, I believe. You can do A's at 16 still. Um and my last year as a C was when they moved the program to platforms. And so I started um that was really when I started to really enjoy um junior guards every single day. I didn't really have days where I didn't want to be there. I loved being in the ocean. I loved being at the beach. Um, it was kind of just what you know filled my cup during the summer. And along with that, I got to be with a lot of really great people. I got to be there every day with my friends, being in the place that I loved. And that was just that was huge for me. Um that was what kept me coming back every single year. After I finished my last year as an A, I had a really impactful um instructor that year, Elijah Tyra is a um now a firefighter for Central Fire Department. Sorry to call you out, Elijah, but um you were the person who inspired me to want to become a lifeguard and want to be um, you know, just like you guys. After that year, I was I was so stoked on it that I was just like, I'm ready to, you know, jump into the next thing. Um and so at 15 years old, um I actually think I got the age age groups wrong as 14 to 15 as an A. So my first year as an A, I was 14, and then at 15 years old, I became a junior guard youth aide. Um you get to go to the beach and have fun every day, but you also get responsibility and you get a paycheck for it. Um that was my first real job. You know, I'd never had um any semblance of like what it was like to have a job or work, and it was the greatest intro job ever because I got to go to the beach, hang out with my friends, but I also had responsibility. You know, I had to be a role model for the kids, and it was the the perfect stepping stone into lifeguarding me because you got to work closely with the lifeguards. You would train with the lifeguards. I mean, the the level of commitment that the guard, like looking back on it, that all the lifeguards had towards our success was um was huge. And that year especially was was really huge for me. I got to work with a really, really great group of um lifeguards, some of which still work for State Parks now, um, and are my coworkers, some of my best friends. And so that was a that was an amazing year um that we got to do that. And that was the summer that you know solidified the fact that I did want to be a lifeguard, and that's what I I wanted to do. Those were my next steps. And so the following year, um I just started training all during the winter. Um, and right after the summer ended, just for lifeguard tryouts. I was like, I wanted to be as fast as I possibly could um to give myself the best shot possible at, you know, this thing that I wanted so badly. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_04:No, it it's I don't know why I didn't plan on talking about lifeguarding, but I think it's worth the conversation. Yeah. You know, I've talked some we you know, we've had so many lifeguards sitting on the other side. It's it was strange to kind of find out all the lifeguards that I was interviewing, you know, that that like, you know, tech people, all that kind of stuff. Oh, yeah, I did, you know, did a season down south or you know, whatever else. You know, the the image that even I had, you know, having grown up here of lifeguards is, you know, one of the slacker, you know, it's this kind of slacker job that sits in a box and rescues girls and tells people not to drink on the beach, you know. But the common realities now, having raised three of them, you know, two of which are remaining, you know, in that system, which is not a well-paying system, but there's something about it. And you know, without delving into too many details, like even even what Caleb's doing now. I I don't think that people understand and this is the conversation I'm I would like to have in uh in the space, however long it goes. You know, recently there's there's a couple people who drowned a Bixir.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And uh you know, the the first one was very traumatizing just due to the nature of the ages and all that all that kind of thing. And and uh you know, I uh privy to hearing some conversations, you know, that happened in in our house, but you know, the realities of the age of the person that ended up finding the body that in essence was one of the only lifeguards available to go body search, you know, at this at this point you know, was very young. Um you know, that there's this thing that that people don't imagine that you have children basically, you know, young adults that are trying to keep people from making mistakes that will kill them.
SPEAKER_01:And then there are also the people that when they're dead are the first to find the body and the nature of the positions not very like it looks glamorous, but it's not a very glamorous on the back end, it can be all sorts of terrifying and and not glamorous, and that's one of the things that I, you know, didn't um realize when I was 16 years old going into lifeguard training was that was what the reality of you know, what this job can can be. And it could be that, you know, that 16-year-old kid is who who is the one who responds to that call first.
SPEAKER_04:Um Yeah, and and you know, for the audience, because a lot of you around the world, certainly a lot of you east of the five here in this country, you know what we're asking young people to do for us, which they're lovingly volunteering for, again, not knowing exactly all that they're getting into, and the uh the amount of people that stay doing what they're doing for the love of people and the community um that that is involved in loving people in that way. It it's worth a second thought. You know, when you know we hear about budgets, things like that as it pertains to you know, what what certainly what California government's going through, but but the these these kids are making twenty bucks an hour and and and you you don't know. Like you don't know the level of responsibility that they're taking on, you don't know the amount of dead bodies that they see even any given year, you know, the the shame, the regret, you know, what it's like to have to show up for the box the next day, the you know, when something didn't quite go the way it could have or should have. And you know, it it's not that they shouldn't be doing that, it's just that it it's such an ignored spot of the reality of what it means when someone puts on those red shorts and puts that blue jacket on and a pair of binoculars and it's just watching over you as you're doing whatever the hell you want to do. You know, it it's it's you know, it it's hard because you know, for those of us who are around the water, especially now, there are so many people being invited to the water from everywhere in the world, you know, as though the Pacific Ocean is a peaceful ocean, and especially in the beaches where Nate works, they look pretty docile, but they're some of the most dangerous spots you could ever tip your toes into. Yeah. And and yeah, it's worth your consideration. You know, that that that that's all. You know, that there there are budget battles, there are things that are happening behind the scenes, and you know, there's the ways the government will talk about it, there's the ways the public will talk about it. But but you're hearing from people that are willing to put themselves in jeopardy to rescue you from your foolishness. And and you know, I don't I'll say that. Nate doesn't need to say that. You know, the the oceans the ocean is the ocean. You know, it will take care of itself, and you know, it may not necessarily take care of you. That's the reality.
SPEAKER_01:The ocean, you know, will certainly not the ocean does not care, I think are the words that I'm looking for. Um, you know, it it it doesn't care. And it is a beautiful place, but it is also terrifying. Um, and you know, there's so many reasons that we stick around to do this job. And the thing that I always come back to is it's the people, you know, it's the people that we get to serve and it's the people that we get to work with. Um, lifeguarding forms such a tight knit community of people, and that's why it's such a great job, and that's why, you know, people who are underpaid come back to underfunded programs year after year to continue doing it. It's because they love the people they work with and they truly love and they care about helping people.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and and and I I don't want to dismiss the overall value of junior guards and how many lives that that protects. Like it's it is a really incredible. You know, it's so why don't you take a little bit of time to really express you know what you're carrying here as an adult that was that the seed was planted at junior guards. It it just junior guards is what it is. I there there's no program like it, I think, anywhere. Um you know, I don't care whether it's late guards, whatever it is, there's something about junior guards that does something to fortify the human that goes through the process. And you know, many kids quit, and I totally understand. I never did it because I didn't want to do it. Um, I'm one of those non-participants who sat on the outside, but I was always sitting on the rail at Capitola waiting for my friends to get done because they didn't go surfing until I was going with my friends. You know, but I refused to go do all the work that they were doing, we you know, because it just didn't look fun.
SPEAKER_01:It is fun, you know. And um it's I'm such an advocate for the program because you know, it again, like I've said, like I just said previously, it's it's had the biggest impact on me than you know really much else in my life. It's shaped, you know, who I am, where I am today, the values that I have. I I think just the leadership skills, the teamwork skills. Um, you know, it it teaches you even like compassion, you know, we teach, you know, CBR, helping others, um, first aid rescue techniques to all of our junior guards, especially as they get older. Um and part of that is, you know, we really care about developing these kids' characters. And part of it is also a lot of these kids we know someday will want to step into the roles that we have as lifeguards. And it's important that we impart upon them, you know, values of compassion and professionalism and teamwork and leadership. Because even if they, you know, become a lifeguard for a few years, don't become a lifeguard at all, those are skills that they're gonna look back on their childhood and they're gonna say, I'm so glad that I had that foundation and that skill set built for me when I was a kid because you know it's impacted me this much throughout my life. And I specifically can look back on that and say that's directly where a lot of my values come from.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's uh exclamation mark. You know, I certainly know what it did for me as a parent, right? Yeah. You know, the the the young men or well, the men that I have, I wouldn't necessarily even call them young anymore. They're just men. You know, the the realities of who they've turned into. That little beach sitting under my little house was a pretty amazing spot to not have to do a lot of work as a parent. Yeah. You know, the it was the beach was doing the work for me, you know, and all you know, the it there's still a bunch of bullshit that happens on the beach. It's totally it's not it's not like you know, some perfect thing, you know, stuff happens, people you know, kids are kids, people are people, and people say dumb things, do dumb things. You know, but overall, you know, the big takeaway, you know, for the most part, for most people that that get to participate in stuff like this, much like youth sports, you know, the the takeaway has nothing to do with what you did. It's who you did it with and what which what you came out with collectively. You know, the the problems are still there, but you're pretty busy running. Yeah. Pretty busy running. Well, you know, let's shift gears a little bit, not not away from per se that, but more into, you know, what was it like for you to grow up here in Santa Cruz? I I I mean, every experience is different. Um, you know, aptos is its own thing, and and I'm gonna go on my little diatribe a little bit for the audience. Aptos is a bubble inside of a bubble inside of a bubble. And and anybody anybody from town, including Capitola, you know, kind of sits with a mocking grin at you know, at anybody who's south side, you know, because it it's this alarmingly even bigger but smaller bubble. Like it's a strange one. There's it's a tiny bubble, but everybody's in it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And and there's this whole zone of Aptos, La Selva, Corlitas, that is just its own thing. What was it like to grow up in that thing? Because I really haven't had a a deep conversation about Aptos yet, you know, because Aptos is a thing. There's certainly a lot of wealth there, you know, in times past. It was the wealthy, wealthy neighborhood that is now shifted, you know, to to more, you know, Capitola North, you know, on the coastal community. So so it's kind of lost its its flair. But let's just say the$15 million homes are there. You know, it's always attracted uh a particular kind of person, Tom Cruise.
SPEAKER_01:They're there.
SPEAKER_04:Used to own a house at Manresa. You know, it's a massive, it was the first mansion mansion that was ever built here. You know, you know, Aptos has this real odd mix of you know what what would be really considered old money here, you know, where the old money felt comfortable, kind of halfway between downtown and Carmel, you know, where the real old money is, or Pebble and and and you know, where what ostensibly was the new money that would which is on the west side coming from the university, all all the all the you know, PhDs and all that kind of stuff. But but you know, when you come into the fold, you know, how how old are you now? Twenty-three, twenty-five? Twenty two. Twenty-two. Yeah, we we listen, I have to you you you're gonna see a picture of Nate if you look at Instagram. Uh and I want to say this to you, just just because I I think it's worth saying. It's not that Nate looks uh old because that's not really what it is. There's just a presence about him that from the time that he stepped into my house I wasn't sure if he was older than my youngest son. Just because of how he carries himself. You know, he he he's he's got a a stature that comes with a piece of wisdom. I I wouldn't attach maturity to it, you know, because that's n that's experiential. There's just a wisdom in the way that you carry yourself, and it's something that I've always admired about you because I appreciate that. You seem to be out of the group that you're somehow classified in that age group. You seem to be more sitting north, you know, more towards my older sons. Not that my youngest son is immature because he's not. He's he's a very mature kid for his age, but you but you live I know him, you know. I I know what made that. So I also kind of kind of look at you and go, Whoo, how how'd you make that? You know, so so uh yes, my uh did you say 22? 22. 22, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:By the way, that means a lot coming from you.
SPEAKER_04:I really yes, the 22-year-old who I keep thinking is 25, and he's not, and I still thought 25 was too young. Uh that group of people that that you know the that you're with, right? You know, we we just talked to Brian, you know, in the back. He went to school with his his uh his uh second youngest. Yep, things were very much changing, you know, at that point. Aptos was changing quite a bit. Did you play sports in high school? Did you like like what was Aptos like? It was great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It was a great place to grow up. Uh my mom grew up in La Selva. Um, so she kind of always wanted to go back to that area, I think. And we had this great little house in this neighborhood that I grew up in and lived in up until you know last summer when my parents moved out to Coralitos, um, closer out to my grandparents. But yeah, it was a it was amazing growing up there. Had a a really great group of friends. Um one of my best friends lived right up the street, you know, when I was a really young kid, and that was awesome. You know, we would just we'd walk over to each other's houses, we'd have sleepovers, we'd beg our parents to hang out. And um actually the two of us went went through lifeguard training together and are both still lifeguards together. Um, so we're we're still quite close. Um, but it was a great place to grow up. I I did um I played sports, I played baseball primarily, played a little bit of soccer and basketball when I was in like elementary school.
SPEAKER_04:So we got to brag on baseball just a little bit. Yeah. Because again, uh I mean, probably to your dismay a little bit. Your class of athlete specifically. Holy shit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Let's just say we produced a lot of pitchers. Yeah. Yeah, and and they're all going up. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:I got to play with some really, some really great athletes. Um it was it's a pretty cool um some near national championships here last season.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah, on the NCAA side as juniors, you know, like what?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know. And um, you know, one of the one of my teammates from Little League plays for the Minnesota Twins now and starting second baseman for them, Luke Keyshaw. Yeah. Shout out out there crushing it, dude. Yeah um yeah, it was it was a super took that early money, huh?
SPEAKER_04:Super cool rode that shame train till the Motel Sixes and and worked his way up to the big big show. That's great.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, it was a a fantastic place to grow up. I'd I loved baseball. Um, you know, I I wasn't the best at it, but I loved it. It was a lot of fun. Um my dad played baseball through high school. Yeah, he actually played baseball, basketball, football all the way through.
SPEAKER_04:It's because we because we could do that back then. You didn't have to pick a sport in high school. They listen to the biggest.
SPEAKER_01:He was also in a tiny town um up north, but man, he'd yeah, starting shortstop. He was really good, really good athlete. Um and so he coached, you know, helped coach a lot of my teams, um, played catch with me, took me to the batting cages, you know, took me out to the fields to um to hit, and was really, you know, instrumental in you know helping me build a a foundation of love for for baseball. Um and it was it's a lot of fun. And I just kind of fell out with baseball um as I transition transitioned into high school. Um and mainly that was because I wanted to focus on swimming and training. I never swam um in high school, but I wanted to focus on like my swimming performance.
SPEAKER_04:You got to keep the hair on your body because the overchlorinated uh pool there at Aptos.
SPEAKER_01:I did keep the hair on my body. I was actually I was swimming, swimming at a like seascape resort club. Um this was sophomore, sophomore year training for lifeguard drafts. So I I stopped playing baseball that year um because I, you know, was so dedicated to hey, I want to be a lifeguard, this is what I want to do. And I I do regret it sometimes. I I wish that I had finished out my time playing baseball. I think I could have easily done both. Um but in the long run, um, you know, lifeguarding has been so important to me that I don't mind my decision, you know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. Um but yeah, i if it's okay, I kind of want to stay here just for a minute because uh it's it's you know, I have I have a perspective, you know, Brennan got to play with, you know, another grouping, you know, just a few years ahead of you that you know, two guys have gone up, you know, at at some point, you know, in baseball. You know, we have our water polo sequence of of guys, you know, who who went on to play NCAA and you know, a couple have turned pro you know over in Europe, that kind of stuff. Water polo is very small, ball. Um as a young person, you know, when when you're realizing you're amongst excellence, you know, which you know, I I know your group well because you know, because I follow baseball. Right. You know, it it just you know, there there's this predestined thing that kind of emerged with that group because you just knew and you know it's funny, we'll we'll leave names unnamed. Guys who weren't used on the all-star team, guys who weren't used to starting pitchers for Aptos High till their senior year. We're talking really good players. These guys have playing up played up two to pros. Like it's nuts, the group that emerged from this little cell of your little bubble inside the bubble inside the bubble. And then there's another bubble up in Scotts Valley, and then there's, you know, Cap So Kell was also emerging, you know, this group. I I I don't know that I've seen such a wide group for a sport that's so hard to get through. You know, uh, you know, in essence, you know, it wasn't one single graduating class, but it was a four-year group that that saw each other a lot. I haven't seen that kind of excellence come out of town before. I wouldn't know that you would think to ask yourself this, which is why I'm asking, what's that like? You know, the pressure, the the the do you do you want to rise to it? Do you want to shrink? Do you like I I mean, because if I was you, I would have quit before when I was 12, facing the monstrosity of what was coming out of there. Because all those guys are all shortstops, too. You know, it's it's not they're they're all middle players. Like, well, they wouldn't what position aren't they gonna play? And there's you know, in your group, there's four or five of them, and they're all middle players, and they're all got great batting averages. I mean, it's I mean, baseball is baseball, and like fuck, these guys are all the best guy on the team. And and like, you know, I've been with the surfing class that way. You know, you can kind of get away from it in a way by surfing. Baseball requires other people to play with.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, I I I always I feel like I always felt a little bit of pressure to be better than I was and um, you know, to to keep improving. But to be honest, I always always felt super supported by the teammates that I got to play with who were above my level. Um they didn't keep themselves up at that level, you know, atop of everybody else alone. What they did was they they elevated everybody else around them. And, you know, as at least this is how I feel. And they brought everybody, they brought the whole team up together. And so everybody, we were a team, everybody was on the same playing field, you had those stars. Um, but what they did was they didn't just make themselves better, they made the whole team better. Um and so I always felt like comfortable, I think, with with my place um as a baseball player, you know, never really the best, um, but still had a lot of fun and I I felt comfortable with it. And I think that's what allowed me to have the most fun possible.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, you know, because because on the scaling side of things, right? You know, you know, you have the front end of what we're calling Gen Z, which is Caleb's you know, year. He's 30 now. It felt like being on the tail end of the millennials, of course. Now in retrospect, it was more the front end of of what Gen Z has emerged as just to the temperament, the type of economies that you guys are are walking into and what what shapes that that so social psychology you know of of any given uh generation. And you know, for Caleb, it was Lord of the Flies, you know, in in every sport. You know, it's just like you had your talent guys, they were dicks. Um they were well supported because they were good. It wasn't really team-oriented. Uh you know, and again, this is something that you wouldn't necessarily observe. Uh Aiden is when it starts to transition where they're picking each other up a little bit. Very, very talented groups that he was with, you know, uh a lot of Division I starter starters in water polo. He himself is fucking Uber athlete, which is nuts. You know, he can do whatever he wants, he just chooses his path. And then when we get to Brennan, this new thing emerges, like we're just there for each other. Like nobody's chastising anybody for making a bad play. There's this layer of kindness that lives with your generation. You know, there really is in the thick of it, right? And Brennan's again three years older than you, but but um I'm sitting here watching the kids that are sit sitting on the on the back end of of Gen Z. You know, I I you know, there's this mixed group that that we have, and and and this is where I'll let the cat out of the bag a little bit more on who Nate is to us. You know, the the this group of friends that you have, that I have. Um I don't have all the right words. I I've had the privilege of observing and to call it hosting, I didn't have to do much. You know, I just had to do a lot more than that. Well, yeah, well, it might feel that way, but that's just what I do, and it doesn't matter. You know, like there there was just this layer of kindness that entered in with Brennan's age group that accommodated for the older ones that wanted to be kind but weren't in that kind group. And there's this collection of 20, 19, 20 year olds to 30 year olds, which I've never seen an age span like that before of just people that are for each other. I think is it's the hallmark of your generation. You know, I've said this to you before before, I'll say it again to any Gen Z person, you guys are gonna fix it. You know, that like there's a there's a thing inside of you that I you know, I just don't know that my generation got the opportunity to do its size. Yeah, boomers. You know, I I I my heart is for you guys. You know, I I'm not I'm not judging you, I just realize how competitive a generation that you've been. You know, millennials who really disconnected because of that competitiveness. But you guys are like, you know, you're you're you're cohesing. And I I got to witness it happening, and you know, we can get ourselves in trouble now. You know, over over COVID, uh, you know, Kim and I played host to what would have been Thursday nights at college. Yeah, you know, and and the agreement was very simple. All the cell phones uh all get put in the basket. Yeah, um, you stay in your circles, you know, w during the week. Please mind the rules, but yes, I will have my house open because you guys need a college experience. You guys need to be able to be somewhere and do things and just be around each other and you know, watching you guys play games, literally, board games, and have fun, you know, you know, the boys, the girls that were there, you know, I'll I'll leave I'll leave my threat that I always to ourselves. No, I'll tell you all. I told them at twelve oh one I walk up naked and the place better be clean. So this group is always good. We were always out of there by twelve. 1159 because the the door closed at 12.
SPEAKER_01:Of course I would never do that, but but it was it was it was a funny joke because I think nobody wasn't sure whether I might I think there was enough, you know, the the seed of uh was planted that there was enough doubt in our minds that that actually happened. You don't want to see the public be out of there by what we're supposed to.
SPEAKER_04:But but what I got to see emerge from that group is is like it's a powerful group and it's just one of them. You know, um there's gotta be at least three dozen or more of you that are just somehow all intertwined, even though you're at different spots in your life. A lot of these guys are deep in their careers, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Many of you were in college or still in college, and you know, however, this all lays out, you know, here it is. This friendship emerged out of Santa Cruz that that I feel like truly represents what Santa Cruz has been striving to be. You know, a community that's there for each other. You're kind to one another, you're kind to others, you know, you're not not out there hassling people out surfing, you're not doing all the stuff. And, you know, some things have been given up as far as pecking orders, you know, out in the water, um behaviors that used to kind of mitigate harm that that now comes because of the lack of mitigation, lack of fear that is out in the water, you know. But overall, I like what it is more than I liked how it was when it was more hyper-regulated and everybody was in order. And you don't know any different. This is just your life. So you don't you don't, but but there's a tension, and and you know, I talk about this a lot about being in Santa Cruz, especially if you're from the outside. That lives when you're from Santa Cruz, you totally understand the tension.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, what does that feel like at 22, knowing enough about the stories, not having to have totally experienced them with you, been in the atmosphere of them, felt the weather change, but the things didn't happen the way that they used to. What's that like? You know, I it's it's strange to watch, that's all, because you're like the first generation of this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I I've always heard all the stories, you know. I know what used to happen out in the water. And um growing up in South County, I think like just on the cusp of you know, that generational change, I was kind of sheltered and protected because I always like to think, and it kind of is down there, the beaches are so mellow. Um you can go and find a bar all by yourself and surf alone. And that's what I did for a really long time is I surfed with the people that I knew, um, all of my friends and you know, the places that I knew. We were kind of you know sheltered away from the reality just up the wave, you know, up at the point. Um and it's such an it was such an interesting um change for me when COVID hit and Brennan and I really connected at that point. Like we had known each other for um you know a few years before that. Um, but really connecting at that point and spending the majority of our time together. And he brought me outside of my comfort zone completely.
SPEAKER_00:Um Hey, come surf the come surf the point with me. Let's let's go check it out. It's good. Sewers. Isn't that place where people get yelled at and stuff? No, it'll be fine. Just come on, go paddle out here.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. And he fully brought me outside of my comfort zone. And I don't think I really fell in love with surfing until that point. Um, in you know, when I started surfing with him. And he made me a way better surfer than I was ever, you know, kind of cut out to be with the trajectory that I was on in my surfing career. Um I never, you know, I didn't surf um as much as I did do now. Um, you know, I wasn't in as involved in it when I, you know, just surfed down there and just surfed the beaches. Um it I think that was a huge turning point for me. And so when I started venturing out into, you know, surfing the point regularly and starting to surf spots up north regularly, it was this weird feeling for me where I would just felt like, hey, do I belong here? This is weird. Like I'm with someone who kind of grew up in this area, but I just don't, I feel, I feel weird. And then there's this tension you're feeling out in the water where you know, people don't know your face, and you know, there's people, you know, but nothing really happens. And, you know, then I come back to your guys' house and I hear all the stories about, you know, what what used to happen. I'm like, well, does that still happen today? And it's like, it's all kind of you know, fizzling out. And I think it was an interesting time to broaden my um reaches of surfing for sure.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I guess, you know, to expand upon that question. You know, the the town's in limbo right now. You know, I'm gonna be uh doing an interview of a cultural influencer here in the next couple days who's being very vocal about you know that they they moved here from San Diego, you know, thinking that this town was one way and have has really run into the wall of like what has been Santa Cruz. There's something emerging out of Santa Cruz. I look at it, your generation, and go, well, there's a kindness built in. You know, I I believe that as a generation of parents, we've done a pretty good job to culture the moment to happen. I don't know that my generation is kind to each other. I'm I'm just I'm just saying that okay, the the the moment's available because you know, as a surfer, it's intuitive. Those intuitions are going now because the the tension's changed out in the water. Yeah. But the tension just kind of lives everywhere. You know, again, we just talked about how many of your friends are now pro ball ball players. Like it's crazy the amount of competitiveness that just resides here.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, not as a negative thing, but just the reality is that this town somehow just attracts talent.
SPEAKER_01:Breeds competitiveness, I think.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. And everybody acts like they're mellow and like nobody is. Yeah. You know, the all you have to do is come watch a board game at my house. The least mellow board game board game you're ever gonna see, and a bunch of great guys that are high fiving afterwards. But if you saw them in the middle of the board game, it's like these people hate each other, you know. So it's just got this weird flavor of of you know, both things that that, yeah, we're really kind people, but when it's time to time to compete, like I'm bringing it. Um, you know, so outside of the water, like what do you see in town? You know, as you're becoming an adult, you know, watching town change, you know, I I can express it through Capitola, you know, what used to have a hundred people on the beach now has thousands with umbrellas. Like there was maybe one umbrella on the beach, you know, over you know, pre-COVID, now it's nothing but umbrellas on the beach. You know, it's just attracting, I think what it's always targeted for, which is like, hey, we're a kind of mellow, cool community. But like it's never been that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think I'm to answer your point the best, I will go back into the water, I think is what I see the most. Where I see that the most is um, and I can you you can even tie it into lifeguarding, is you have because of that shift from generation to generation, and because of a lot of it, because of the influx of people during and after COVID, and people learning to surf, and you just you see a lot of a lot more people in the water, and a lot of people who don't understand the underlying respect that surfing deserves, I think. And it's it's hard to kind of articulate how I feel about that because I I love new people getting out into the water and learning how to surf, but there's also I think a lack of education and respect. And I don't know how to I don't know how we we fix that. Um and I it it's just a tough thing to see um people getting dropped in on all over the place at the point.
SPEAKER_04:And let alone injured.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And the level of injuries now is I I I just I mean, if you heard of one person getting injured a year when I grew up, like that was a lot. Yeah. Now it's like every day.
SPEAKER_01:I remember there was a a very specific moment, and I'm pretty sure you were the first phone call that we made, or you was you or Kim, where Brennan got hit in the head with a longboard and someone who had no business being out there because he got burned and had to go get staples in the back of his head. I drove him to the ER.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And there was no yelling, but a calm discussion of, you know, hey, this is you know what was wrong here in this situation, and and this is how, you know, it should go next time. And I think that maybe that is the is the right way to do things, um, you know, slowing it down and recognizing which is hard to do.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and it's like this is this is Nate growing up in a peaceful time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, it was it was all words just to see what the response was, and the fists were coming next, or the fists first, then the words after when you made a modicum of a mistake that might have injured you. Now it's like post-injury, everybody's still being cautious, and and that's how fast things have changed in five years. But like it just can't.
SPEAKER_01:It's whiplash, yeah. Yeah, there's too many people nowadays. It just can't be that anymore, what it used to be. And even for those who who want it to go back to that, it just it it's not gonna go back to that. And so kind education is on the only way, and a lot of it is the only way that it's going to have, you know, we're gonna that we may have some semblance of return of respect and you know the culture of yeah, just respecting everybody else in the lineup, um following the unwritten rules, following the rules, the written rules that have been talked about, the rules that are at the top of posted.
SPEAKER_04:Top of the stairs, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly.
SPEAKER_04:Those are actually rules.
SPEAKER_01:There's there's days that I go out there that I just think like, man, you just grabbed a surfboard, put on a wetsuit, and you floated out here without a care in the world to, you know, look around at your surroundings first.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And it's dangerous. It's dangerous for other people, and it's it's dangerous for that person. The amount of rescues that lifeguard and fire agencies in this area make for people who are unprepared for the conditions for how big it was going to be, for how high the tide was going to be, for not knowing where they were gonna get out or how they were gonna get out. It happens every year on our King Tides. We get multiple, multiple rescues, and you can just stand up on the cliff and watch watch it all happen and watch it all unfold.
SPEAKER_04:That's what I do for entertainment. It it it's uh and again, those of you outside the region, I I I don't know how to express what a shock it is. If once in a year a fire truck showed up and somebody got rescued, you know, lifeguard that was a big deal. Every swell now. Like what happened once a year is a hundredfold in any given day. Like it it it's you know what it's done to disrupt the EMS services, you know, the the the call load, you know, what what the fire agencies are now required to do because lifeguard agencies are seasonal, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, like, you know, the government doesn't have a strong response yet. They're just telling everybody, California's great. And it's like, uh, yeah, it is. Uh we don't have the help that you think we do. And it's not because we weren't prepared, it's because you're not prepared. That's the reality that that it that's you know, there there's there's a certain amount of personal responsibility that's required there too. And and uh, you know, I I think it was not this last October, but the October before previous yeah swell. There there was it was that swell, right? You know, Central had, I don't know, three units parked up there, lifeguards up, yeah, three skis in the water, still couldn't handle the call load, and still a line of people going to get out, and they were literally like one out of ten.
SPEAKER_01:It was a conveyor belt.
SPEAKER_04:It was a conveyor belt, one out of ten, you know, and and you know, there were a couple of us like, hey, can you just wait two hours? Yeah, just wait two hours, you know, like like you can't tell me what to do. I'm like, I'm not telling you what to do, but you know, I'm from here and I'm waiting two hours. Yeah. Because even I who am from here and can hand I I can actually make it out. Yeah, and deciding that if I get in trouble, I don't want to add to that load. Like, that's all. Yeah. You know, and I don't think I will, but you are trouble. And and just the blowback, and then immediately watching that crew of four guys. First guy breaks his board right when he gets in the water, gets stuck in the cauldron. Buddy goes to rescue him, has his board dragging behind him. Other two try to paddle out without him, aren't even helping. And all four sitting in line on the conveyor belts. Right. You know, and that was just one tiny crew. And, you know, well-intentioned group of kids, all under 18. You can't tell me what to do. And like, I'm there's no tone of my voice, bro. I'm just telling you the truth.
SPEAKER_01:It's purely out of like your best interest, you know. Yeah. And the best interest of our first responders, and the best interest of the other people in the water.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Well, let's switch gears. That made us all sad. Um went to college.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Fire science.
SPEAKER_01:Force and fire science.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. Yeah. The firemen actually learn things. They don't just go find fires. Uh headed headed in the future towards a fire. Um, yeah. Yeah. When when you look at the future you know, from your vantage point, what gives you the most fear right now?
SPEAKER_01:There's a lot, I think, that's uncertain just about how the way the world is changing. Um housing prices, wanting to come back, and you know, at the start of this podcast, we talked about what the word Santa Cruz is to me and it's home, and so wanting to be able to come back here um is you know what makes me anxious, and am I gonna be able to afford that?
SPEAKER_04:Um Yeah, and again, folks, like like this is someone who's grown up here. You know, you're you're you're aiming towards a job that you know, let's just say at least starts around a buck twenty with full Bennies. Guess what? You can't buy a house. Uh you know, it it's it's weird, you know, and yeah, of course you could live somewhere else, but yeah, um you know, but but uh but apart from that, you know you know, we we can't control markets you know that way. You know, I I I and I'm not meaning to press in too hard, you can tell me to stop. You know, as a young person looking towards the future, what is it about us as adults? You know, I think especially me in the last three years, who I think you've watched me get really calm, you know, and a lot more centered, a lot less angst. Uh I'm certainly very, very hopeful for the future, mostly because of l watching you guys and going, oh, that this is the generation that I think can that is at least is willing to see it. But for you adults, you know, I want you to hear from a 22-year-old who is conscious, who observes, who is kind, who has been watching us be, you know, like like what's the thing you want to say to us you know, about I mean like being young's always hard. I I'm I'm gonna be frank. You know, like like like your fears are are not different than my fears were growing up. I was afraid for the future, you We had the Soviet Union that was gonna blow us up, and you know, we had all this all the noise different way. But there's something about and and may maybe let me stick what was gonna be my question behind it. You know, there's there's there's the fear and then there's the hope. Right? And so maybe maybe it's just easier for you to go back and forth, yeah. You know, on on the way that I frame this. And I really had I apologize up front that that I had no intention of doing that, but I think the conversation's kind of like we're close enough where it's like I trust your answer, you know, that that you'll be honest with me. Not that it's just me, you know, but but uh kind enough in your dissertation to go like, hey, will you guys at least look at this? You know, but here's what I'm hoping, and I'm also believing this thing. You know, that that because I I think you more than any other generation has been entirely betrayed entirely by yeah, just get good grades, do your best, you know. I don't expect more from you. Go to college, and guess what? Everything's gonna be okay. Nope.
SPEAKER_01:And so many people are in in that in that position right now, um, that you know just that thought that way that it, you know, maybe was in the generation before us is no longer a reality. And not to get into politics too much, um, we'll leave kind of all of that on the wayside. But I think a lot of a lot of that kind of stuff scares me. Um the direction in which the country is heading, and it's away from that direction is away from the people who really do the most to support the country, and all of that is is running away from the middle and up to the top. Um and it feels like we just don't have we're losing control over. And maybe it's just because I've never really been involved that much in politics, right? I'm still so young, you know, I don't have a lot of the the the knowledge of how things were in the country before now, but it it feels like you know, we just don't we don't have a voice, we have no control and no say over candidates who get chosen or um what is happening on a federal level. Um I think I think all of that kind of stuff scares me. I don't see any compassion, any kindness. Um I don't see any of that in our leadership, um, you know, really all of any of the the candidates um for our leadership of our country. I haven't haven't seen that in the past four years. Um I think you know, I think that scares me. And then I come back to your question on the flip side of it and back to our little bubble of Santa Cruz and the things that that give me hope are the compassion that I see around me in day-to-day life. I think we're so focused on a lot of the time on looking outside to the huge perspective of our country, and we can get really frustrated and really upset really quickly, especially with the way that media and information and opinions are shared today so easily accessible on social media. It can affect our not just our generation, all generations in such a negative way so quickly. But when you scale it back to just the community and the people around you, that's what gives me hope, in my opinion, um just the amazing people that we have around here and the community that I'm lucky to be a part of, um, you know, with so many compassionate, caring people who are driven, who care about the people around them, who care about their community. I think those people um are what give me hope for the future. But there's always that nagging thing in the back of your mind, and it's like we can't really just we can't really live in this little bubble alone by itself forever.
SPEAKER_04:Can I play dad for a minute? Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:You're pretty good at that role.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, right. Sometimes the uh I think one of the strange equations in politics that people don't recognize is they don't often understand who the most important politician is in their own town. And the two most important politicians in any given town are the DA and the sheriff's office. Because they wield the most power. They decide who does and doesn't get to do you know, in essence, kind of the freedoms afforded to us in the Constitution in some way, shape, or form. Yes, nobody should murder people, no sh nobody should steal, all that kind of stuff. But but you know, Santa Cruz itself really represents the this odd quagmire, right, of all things in America. Yeah. All very driven people, mostly for the most part, that have to be here because you know it requires so much from the person. So there's a you know, personality set that just is here. Well no matter it doesn't matter what side of the fence you're on politically or economically, whatever. You know, it's it's it's a very driven community in in its own way that tries to come off as being mellow. And you know, that that that miscue, you know, which is that somehow and this is one of the ways that I press, you know, my fellow liberals who I agree with about what they're seeing's wrong coming from the other side, sure. But how has any president actually ever affected you? Like truly, and it's far less than what happens locally. And you know, as a parent, I you know, I guess I would want to say to you, you know, because I know who you are, I think you'll be surprised by how a small community can have a bigger impact. Yeah, and that sometimes bubbles are good because they incubate something.
SPEAKER_01:And I think the thing that I think about the most is like I am so lucky to be in such like this bubble that we are in that we live in. And the the thing that hurts my heart the most is to see, you know, people outside. Again, going back on, you know, what scares me the most is you see people outside of this bubble um in different parts of the country, the world, who are suffering so much. And again, that that suffering of other people is at your fingertips on your cell phone all the time. And we as a society, I don't think realize how much we are overloaded with that kind of suffering more than previous generations may have been. Correct me if I'm wrong.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, no, no, no. I I think it's true. You know, it's like CNN started it. Uh you know, as I've expressed before, I I really I'm very reticent to blame social media because it's a human problem. Right. And it's the humans that will change it. So I mean, tech is amoral. You know, tech will do what the people will do. You know, so so I I don't you know, it's like it's like money.
SPEAKER_01:We control the technology. It's the technology in itself inherently can't be the problem because it is us who create, control, abuse, use the technology.
SPEAKER_04:And you know, and and again, the economic quagmire is this like it's even for me, you know, it's like I I have to play this game with Instagram whenever I do one of these podcasts, right? And it's it feels silly, right? You know, I I have to post three times, I have to increase my slides to get more views to grow, whatever. You know, you know, it's it's not like I'm not trying to do something here, but like I'm doing it with my I'm I'm getting dragged by my heels. You know, I I'm just you know, because not just a sponsorship, but just out of respect for you know what the magazines brought to me, all that kind of stuff. I I I mean I get what I get from a podcast sitting here with you. Like it's kind of done, but you know, things need to propagate and grow and kind of see where they go to to measure them, all that kind of stuff. You know, so this is really the first time in my social media career of like have having to mine the game a little bit. You know, that they're just numbers. I know how to interpret them, I know whether what I'm doing's working or not, all that kind of stuff. So, you know, interpreting them's not hard, but I do have to look at them now. And you know, so I have this uneasy relationship with this thing now. Yeah. You know, it it's you know, uh as my audience knows, I've started and stopped a bunch of times this year because of this stupid little thing I carry in my pocket and then what it what it was doing, and then how I was having a relationship with it. It's like I need to stop it. Not because I was looking at it too much, it's just how how ones and zeros are boosting my ego about like like I don't know you guys who are listening. I I don't, you know, if I got to sit with you, you would know who I am. Yeah, but you but you don't know me, I don't know you. I appreciate that you listen. But at the same time, I don't know you. And you know, I'm I'm reading data points on a screen about you that that doesn't make that you. You know, I I mean I don't know you personally. I'm just you're just a a digit, you know, in some region, you know. But it it's it it's weird to me, you know, that humans have been reduced to ones and zeros in my back pocket, you know, of code.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm sure it's a an even more weird feeling for you and your generation than for us is because it's what we've always known. But you saw that slow transition in that process.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and but it's it's happened fast to all of us. It's just all you've known. It's like, oh, you know, guys like me, I'm a knuckle dragger, you know, like I I can't even use my computer. And I was a computer science guy in high school, so like that doesn't you know, those two things don't equate. You know, but that being said, is what it is. You know, I I chose to really remove myself from technology up until I've had to embrace it. Yeah. Um, so you know, to your, you know, you know, I guess lingering question of was it different? Yeah, but it's this is different than how it was different. You know, yeah, it's it's different for all of us. And yeah, was it scary back then? Yeah, totally. Was it hard back then? Totally. But you know, you guys had a zero added to how it's hard. Like that's those, those are tenfold issues. That's that that extra zero, you know, added to the end of a of a cost of a house is is ten times the amount of hard in its own way, even though someone maybe older than me goes, Yeah, you make$120,000. I never made more than$60,000. Yeah, but look at you, you're in a house, I'm renting a room. You know, it's it's uh you know, the the the those exchanges aren't fair ones, you know, they're they're non-comparables, I guess the best way to put it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, one of the hardest things for me to do, I think, is to sit here and to think about like things being difficult and things being hard because I've had so much opportunity afforded to me and more much more than so many people in so many other situations, just because of where I got to grow up and you know that being in this bubble has given me so much, it feels wrong to say, you know, hey, this thing is making it hard because there's always going to be someone on the other end who is having a tougher time than you. Um so recently I've really been trying to embrace the more, you know, positivity of things um because I don't, you know, I don't have it that hard. I have so much to be thankful for, so much to be grateful for that I, you know, what can I do besides be positive right now about my situation, about the way that things are going? And that's something I've always struggled with so much is you know a consistency of positivity and you know, consistent, you know, good mental health um has not been a regular thing in my life, especially the past five or six years.
SPEAKER_04:Um as your awareness of the situation. Right. The the the look at the future is like, woo.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Like the future and things outside of my control are scary. And I think I'm slowly starting to bring, you know, the things that are in my control back, you know, notice those things that are in my control and notice those things that are outside of my control, and you know, look at those things that are outside of my control and say, okay, this does not have to affect how I feel emotionally, you know, personally in this moment right now, because it's just it's out of my control. And then controlling the things that I can control and you know, ultimately being more positive.
SPEAKER_04:Is it okay if we stay here for a second? Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, it's kind of where I wanted to go.
SPEAKER_04:Then we'll ramp up a little bit. Wasn't sure if I was closing out or moving on. Okay, we're switching gears here, people. Fifth gear.
SPEAKER_01:You okay with going longer?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, yeah, always. So you can go as long as you want. Okay. Okay. Uh so should we talk men's mental health and the mental health crisis a little bit right now? Let's do it. Fair enough.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I think mental health in general is just a it's a good topic.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Uh so you've watched me go through something the last three years. And and Nate has borne witness to what I would call my alcoholic self. That's when he uh he uh he entered the program. He can attest to I was a pretty good guy. Pretty good at at my worst moment. Uh that's neither here nor there. Uh you know, the the process uh that has been weird for me, just so you know, as someone who was horribly depressed and suicidal my whole life, what happened to me was anxiety came like a rocket, just a missile, you know, just blew my world up. Probably around 2014-15 is when I had my first massive anxiety attacks. And, you know, I I had I really viewed depression as a gift. Suicide was a motivator, you know, and I I don't want to impose that that same thing, you know, as as to what you know the mental health struggles are, you know, on you in particular. So I I'm not referring to anything as it pertains to Nate. Nate has his own story, however he wants to share it. Um, and I don't know anything about this, just so you know, uh, all you audience people. But you know, on my side of things, you know, when my depression went away just two years ago, actually it's two years ago, February, you know, so now I'm heading into my third year, it's weird. Like I don't know how to like, I don't know what it's like to wake up in a good mood, and like it happens most days. Like it's really like this year's been kind of bumpy a couple of days, but nothing like every day, oh shit, I woke up. You know, like that, like that thing, you know, and and and you know, from my vantage point, you know, I look back at my youth, you know, at my adulthood, you know, there's awareness there's an awareness that I always had from when I was tiny of the things around me that I wasn't being told the story of what I was being aware of. And I can look back now and go, there's an easy story, you know, because the work that I've done about why I felt the way I felt most of the time. You can call it gaslighting, you know, whatever you want to do. There was no intent to gaslight, there was no there as far as that goes. Just was a cultural norm of trying to make things right and the culture is trying to move that way. But you have these feelings about the things you're seeing around you, and you're being told, oh no, you're not seeing that. You know, you're growing up in an era where you're actually seeing the shit. You know, like our former president losing his mind in front of us when you have every leader around him go, no, he's not, you know, and you're like, uh, yeah, he is. My dad's older than that. And like, stop it. Stop disrespecting reality. You know, I I don't know how to define your guys' mental health crisis. What I know is half my friends are dead because they killed themselves or got murdered or OD'd. So, duh, there was clearly a mental health crisis, you know. Uh this thing, you know, that you guys are experiencing is so much different because there's so much more content that you have to interpret. You know, it it's a very weird thing. And hope's a very hard thing to find. And I I don't did you happen to listen to Colin's interview that I just posted? I didn't. Oh God, it was so good. He was so good. You know, he he he he he's such a hopeful guy, and he's this really faithful guy. He he's he's like one of my best friends ever. And he just, you know, shit's hitting the fan. He's like, nah, God's in control. You know, you're like, you just want to choke him. You know, like it's just like stop it. You know, you're you're killing me, Smalls. But but you know, what he was referring to, you know, just just yesterday was that he was talking about having to put your faith in the right things because hope is a heckler on the side, right? It's like just sitting right outside of that. You can't touch it, it's just standing there going, you wish, you wish. And you know, kind of in the lens of that, you know, I guess is the probably a good premise to start from. You I'm presuming that by what you've articulated so far in the conversation, you're living in a time where it's hard to know what to have hope in.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Especially when leadership is fucking lying about everything. And that's I'll say it out loud, I'll say it to your face. Any one of you guys wanna talk to me? You're lying. You know, that's just the reality, and like stop lying, or at least stop talking. Yeah, you know, like like so it's something that we got used to, you know, because we believed that things were going the right direction, we had a market to match it. You know, we just felt that maybe we were outside of it. Now it's like, you know, this is your life. Good luck. And you know, you're looking at your parents, you're grateful, you have all that in your heart. You know, this is what I am observing. You know what to be grateful for because you've experienced enough to know that I have a comparison to what I'm seeing around me. You're choosing to see the hardship around you. It's breaking your heart. You're grateful, you know that there's privilege that you've had, but to call it privilege is like, no, it's just good parenting. Like, like that's not privilege. You know, like it is a privilege to have good parents, but no, fuck that. We're better than this. Yeah. You know, like it what we're calling privilege to me should just be expectation. Yeah. If we're the city on a hill, that thing. So, in the context of that, you know, that way you're not having to be too personal, you know, like you you can go as deep as you want. I I'll I'll feed off of what you're saying. But in the kind of resonant depressive episode that America's going through that lacks hope, that has faith in nothing, you know, because there's nothing to hold on to, you know, from that lens, maybe that's a good place to start. Is that fair enough?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me specifically, the how much, and I we talked about it before, the the access to anything at your fingertips just for me puts so much over stimulation in my in my brain that I just have periods where my anxiety will just skyrocket through the roof because of stuff that's built up that I've seen at work, that I've seen online, that I've seen at school, and it all just will spiral around in my brain and bounce around. And it just feels like I can't even control it. And it just shuts me down from thinking about anything else. And the that access to all of that information that just gets thrown around on our cell phones, I think does so much damage to our generation more than we more than we know. And then you just you can't you don't want to get off it. Right? You convince yourself, and I've always convinced myself that you know it's done more good for me than it has negatives, and I still don't know if that's the reason that I suffered and suffer from you know, sometimes crippling anxiety. But it you know, it just feels like what else, what else is it gonna be other than that little brick in my hands that's feeding me a lot of the causes of that anxiety, you know? Like when I go to work to do my job, at least the one that I've had, you know, as a lifeguard for the past seven years, I don't I don't get anxious. All that stuff goes out the window. All that I it's I lock in and it's time to do my job. Um and then I come home and kind of all that stuff will circle and float around again. And you know, it it really I think came to a head a bit um at when I was at school um because I would get, you know, I'd get so anxious about going to a party or what other people, you know, other people's opinions of me, um, that I could just shut down. And even when I really wanted to go spend time with my friends and go have a good time, it was like my brain telling me, like, no, you can't do that. It's gonna like things are gonna go wrong, it's not gonna be okay. And you know, I just I think that that was all a response from you know, a buildup of increasing social pressures from having smartphones and cell phones. And yet I still don't throw that thing out the window, you know, because it keeps me connected to my friends, it you know, keeps me connected to the the people who I love and but is it more harmful than it is than it is helpful, you know? And it's hard for me to specifically articulate the um you know the bouts of like depressiveness and anxiety that that I would go through, um, and still, you know, sometimes will. Um just because I don't know how to talk about it and I don't know, you know, I I don't it's easy and hard to talk about for me at the same time. Because I'm very accept I'm very accepting of it and I'm very accepting of the way that I would, you know, would feel. And so I I don't feel like I don't feel shame and guilt about feeling that way. Um but I did and some still do at times totally fucking feel that way. You know. Um but I just don't know how to articulate it, um how to articulate it best.
SPEAKER_04:Is it okay if I interject hard just for a minute? And and it'll be kind of a 10-minute soliloquy to contextualize what will be the statement, you know, of and I'll start with it. Like, how could you? How could you know how to do it? Like this is your life. Like let's I'll start with the end statement, but let me explain it, you know, from the vantage of a 56-year-old who's let's just say it how you feel is not that far away from how I felt till I was 53. Okay, so as a i it's it's the thing I understand the best, right? I don't understand this version of me. I do understand what we have in common that way, and I'm not that far away from it. And you know, you know, there's a framework that I've been working from for the last, you know, three years now, uh you know, from Dr. Conte. And uh you know, I I I I really liked how he put it. You know, he he he said, look, agency, which is the ability to make the best choice you can given the circumstances that that you are clearly seeing, is what produces gratefulness. You can't get grateful. Uh you know, gratitude gives us power, empowerment, empowerment, then humility. So you can't get grateful, you can't get humble. You know, you have to have the agency, you have to have the empowerment to do, you know, choose, feel grateful, do it it works out. Boom, you know, humility, because you know you're kind of lucky it worked out. You know, there's there's there's the reality, and and and I'm and I'm at least in this conversation, you know, because we I mean, just so you know, audience, Nate and I have never talked in depth this way at all. So so you know, I I don't know if you're gonna hear this intuitively, Nate. I'm gonna keep backing out and othering you so you don't have to like have to perform in in the conversation that we're having, and like be be on the on the on the couch, so to speak, you know, of this conversation, because that that I don't think that that's fair. Uh you know, given that, so there's the framework I worked from, you know. Um, you know, what the fourth step gave to me at AA that somehow I found my glasses there of tools I already had, right? I just I just lost my glasses so I couldn't see them. Yeah. Um, you know, and I had all the relationships. I had all the stuff. There there's there's there's no yeah. I I I didn't need all that it was going to give me and unfair for me to sit with the people who need that, and that it's good, you know, you know, like that just unfair relationship, you know, for me to even stay there and have it be easy. How's that? It's not not fair. But in the fourth step, which is really true introspection, you know, it's like doing solid inventory work. It's like what really happened? Who was it? What happened? Where did it leave you? And then who'd you decide to become? You know, that that's that's what that is what you know we call um acceptance. You know, the Bible calls it repentance, seeing things for what they are, taking that deep gasp in. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh my gosh, I didn't see that. And then the compassion that you need for yourself for having not seen it before, the compassion you have for yourself, you have for others. And you have this in droves. So it's it's not like not like I'm talking to a non-compassionate person. It's just how to have compassion on yourself. You know, so we have acceptance, we have repentance, and you know, as AA would call it, sobriety, seeing things for what they are. But but yeah, you know, I and it it, you know, our brains, physically, you know, when you're young, you're you're a blank CPU, right? You're just collecting data. You're not interpreting data yet, you're collecting data. Yeah. And then when the code of the world, right, which is which is, you know, we could have called it political leaders who are lying to you, when the code doesn't match the data, that's that's where things get off. It's like, wait a minute, these things don't match. And I'm really grateful you're bringing this up because I I think it it's a piece of the conversation that's been missing even when you know we've spoken or I've spoken to others about this, you know, at the same same uh table here. When we deal with that, all that's left is anxiety. You know, that's just the common reality. And anxiousness is uh is is fear about the future, you know, based on the past. You know, that does does this come? You know, and and there's there's another tool that I have in there that I just recently got, which is separation of you know, we keep calling things the same thing. We call stress, anxiety, anxiety, stress. We call pressure stress, call it anxiety, and they're three different things. Anxiety is fear about shit you can't control. Yeah. You know, stress is I don't have the tools and I need help. You know, I I I I I I see it, but I don't know how to do this by myself. Right. And pressure is something we all need. It's a great motivator, you know, it's like it's the best thing ever. Like it produces diamonds. Yep. And and to that question that you did ask out loud, to the general point that I'm making, you know, as it pertains to depression and anxiety, you know, the interplay with that, you know, and and when we have these anxiety attacks, I'll, you know, I'll let you know I had one the Saturday after we moved in, Thanksgiving. I I I went I went to get a cup of coffee at Seascape. It was closed, and I was blacked out from there. Like I ended up in the Home Depot parking lots, the first one of its kind. You know, I I know I drove well, it wasn't one of those things. I just didn't know where I was. And the only way I can describe it is like I I had a drank a handle of vodka and woke up next to some girl I don't even know who she is. Like it was one of those like wow, like that, like like what's that? So I haven't had that type of anxiety attack before. And there's just a lot of pressure that I faced, you know, I've been able to make the decisions, it's just been a lot selling the house and everything that's going on. So I wasn't surprised. I knew what it was. You know, I had the intellectual capacity, I have the experience to, you know, be able to put all those pieces in play to identify, you know, how to how to approach that in the future. And so, you know, these are just tools, right? But but they're based on experiences I've had. You know, I got beat up when I was 16, you know, I know what rage is. You know, you know, it's like that there's all these things in my background that I wasn't insulated from that I resent, but yet there are telling me I'm gonna be okay because I've it's it's okay. You know, you don't have all those things yet. You know, you don't know it like you being okay is a faith prospect. You know, and it's what to have faith in. Yeah. And that that's hard, you know, because when the people around you are lying, you know, who are calling themselves leaders, when the world that us as adults who are the parental side of things are operating in that system and somehow still functioning because the economy's propped us up the way it has. And then we're saying to you, Oh, you have a future. And it's like, ah that future hasn't emerged yet. And and that is the fact, right?
SPEAKER_01:And these these are the And there's your anxiety, right there.
SPEAKER_04:And there's your anxiety right there. And and then you have, you know, your grandparents who are sweet. I'm not saying your grandparents, oh, it'll all work out, and it's like, yeah, no, it won't, actually. You know, it's like I laugh because I'm part of the last generation that could get divorced. You know, like it is entirely unaffordable now for any of that to happen, and that affects how you relate to like you know, like there's no way I can make a mistake, even in my relationship, where you know, you're staring at your you know, your grandparents going like you got married how many times and you own how many houses afterwards? Like, what the fuck? Like that's confusing. That's my point. Yeah, and so uh not fair for me to give advice. I'm just describing uh did I do a good job describing what the future looks like. Yeah, you know, it it's like it doesn't match the messages that we're like handing off to you that actually were right. So how else are you supposed to feel is my point.
SPEAKER_01:And I think one of the the pieces that you talked about just at the end there that kind of I'd you know a little segue off of is like the just sometimes can feel like we have our, you know, I have the inability to make mistakes, not in the sense that I can't make mistakes, but in the sense that if I make a mistake, things are going to spiral, you know. Yeah. And it just that's just not the truth, right? Because then I look at, you know, when I was a a rookie lifeguard, and all you did was make mistakes, right?
SPEAKER_04:That's all you know you made what's your what's your kill list?
SPEAKER_01:That's all you do when you're learning something new is you make mistakes, and what do you do from your mistakes? You grow and you learn, and that is the foundation of everything. And so I think feeling like you can't make a mistake or else is the root cause of you know a lot of what people of our generation are feeling today.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I I I and so this is a spot where as a generation, I can apologize to at least one of you. I've tried to do with my kids, you know, they they're They're not accepting of it. It's just they they understand. You know, it's like that's just what happened to you guys. You know, the tried and true wisdoms of an economy that functions a particular way led to a particular lie that we're all living in, and and how to suss that out. You know, and and for all of you that are listening, you know, it's most of what we're suffering from has more to do with economics than anything, and our ignorance of economics in capital markets than than you would imagine. And you'll hear a soliloquy on this, you know, in the near future. But when the language is capitalism, and that is the language that all Americans speak, and they think that they're not speaking that language, you see, we are all capitalists. And I I don't care who you are, you can be a communist. Sorry, you're in America, you're a capitalist. There's the reality. You know, you chose to be here, not Venezuela, not Cuba, not China. Guess where you live? You know, you you have the convenience of saying you're something when really we just are. You know, and the and the language is money, but you're being told it's something else, there's a discrepancy, you know, like that's all. Yeah, you know, and like we're both watching, this is my point, you know, in all that, that oh, I see this with you. You know, I I may be a little bit more conscious of it, but you know, as I express, maybe I've might wiped the foggy mirror a couple more times than you, you know, so I've kind of gotten a glimpse of my face. But like, I don't know. You know, like we both don't know because the lie is unfolding. The future has to be built, and it's whether we're gonna do it together or not, or whether we're gonna fight with each other.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And that's just the reality. You know, and you're carrying the weight of that. This this is this is my point. It's not your fight. That fight's coming.
SPEAKER_01:And that's such a good It's such a good point. It's like we are all we talked about it earlier when you're cutting my hair earlier this week when you invited me on the podcast. And it We are all so much more similar and alike and than we are led to believe by other people. Um, you know, like not other people, but I would say By the media. Yeah, by the media, yeah. You know, doing it. Or by whatever stupid algorithms trying to divide.
SPEAKER_04:I don't even think it's the media. Yeah. I think it's just algorithms and code.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Because things feed off of divisiveness, right? And but what we really are, we're not divided. We're s we're all so much more similar. We're all in a more similar spot than we think we are, and we're all so much more connected and so much closer to each other than we think we are. And that back to your previous question of what gives you, you know, what scares you and what gives you hope. That gives me hope, you know, is it little by little I start to realize, you know, what we're all so much more similar and we're all, you know, people are compassionate. No matter what, no matter what you think, deep down, I think people are comp a compassion. We're a compassionate species. Yes. We are meant to have empathy, we are meant to care about each other. And that's what that's what gives me hope, and that's what fuels me, you know, just taking things day by day and going into life with as much compassion as I possibly can. And that's it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. You know, I don't quite want to finish yet, so let me take my selfish indulgence here just for a second. We all know a fight's coming. You know, we we everybody can feel it in their bones. And and it's it's not whether it's coming, it's how we're gonna decide to do it. You know, whether it's gonna be one done with compassion towards one another. And and yes, there is ignorance involved, and and I I don't view myself as an elite thinker. That's not what I'm saying. You know, it's just like experience is experience, some experience leads to ignorance. You know, some leads, you know, and they're just protection mechanisms that we have, you know, to protect ourselves from things, you know, how our brains are designed. You know, that being said, we collectively, as you know, whether it's as a community here in Santa Cruz, you know, everybody's feeling it, something's off. We can blame the money moving here, that's not really their fault. They're good people too. They have a misperception about what this place is, they're gonna change it more. That's all fine. It's just that, you know, as this further gentrification happens to a community here, you know, it's just this just this microcosm of everything that's happening in America. Yeah, you know, is that yeah, you're coming here with your ideas and you have the money to do it. For you, you know, and and will you look around? Like, like that's all, just look around you because to your point my some of my favorite doers in the world, even though I won't necessarily sit and have a beer with them, but are completely on the opposite side of the political spectrum that I am. You know, and and it's a paradox that I just embraced. It's like, you know, I hate sitting and listening to you talk about how much you love this president, but you're a good person. You know, it's like I I you know, I I hear your rhetoric, but I watch you do what you do, and it's like, oh, you're just better than me, too. Like, damn it. You know, you're just a better person. Because you're actually not even matching this persona that you put on, and you're being defensive because of how I'm approaching you, and you're trying to convince me of something. And like, really, we're just kind of both the same people, except you're a better version of me. You know, you're something I want to aspire to, but we have this rhetoric in between us. And, you know, when when when I when I say to you, and this is this is this is why I wanted to bring that up when I say that you guys are gonna fix it, this is what I'm talking about. You guys have built these, you've had this anxiety adult life, but you've chosen to put a foundation of love and of kindness and of compassion. Like I don't know what it is, but we're gonna need this house. So let's let's build a building where where we're all able to do it can be expanded, and we'll wait. Well, and you know what I can say is that yeah, there's a lot of of adults in the room, in fact, too many, that are ignoring it because that's what's worked in times past. And it's like, well, we can ignore it, but the enemy is at the gate and they're knocking, and the gate's gonna fall at some point. And I don't know what that is, you know, uh whether it's gonna be economics, politics, AI, you know, who knows what it is. It could be all three that you know hit us at once, but we're gonna be brothers in a second, whether you're sitting here ignoring it or not. So at least know where your sword is. Like that's all, because I got your back. Yeah. You know, then and that's the posture that I'm taking. It's like, I smell fight. Okay, I got the people who got my back. All right, here we go. You know, let's let's let's wait and see, because I got no control over this because the gate's gates going, you know, but but you know, that that ease of experience of having been in multiple fights, you see. This this is the thing. Yeah, it's like I I know what I know what the fight feels like. I know the hill's worth dying on, you know, you know, and I'm talking about emotional ones. I'm not talking about talking about spiritual realities, not not physical, you know, violence. I'm just talking like, hey, it's it's brewing, and but we have to decide to be human with each other and for each other and all that kind of thing. And and and having anxiety about it, I I wouldn't it's not like you're trying, you know, but it's like see it for what it is. You have no control. Like zero. Yeah. That's the beauty, is like just allow yourself to see it all and just like soak it in, interpret. Just interpret. And and when when you're intelligent the way that you are, specifically, you know, because I again I mind the game, you know, I'm I'm watching. I as the boys say, we're an Irish mob, right? Like we're really friendly, but there's also a hole in the back of the house just in case somebody happens to disappear in the room, you know, nobody's talking, and yeah, that guy was gonna be a problem. Uh it it it's uh uh you know, this this decision just to isolate, which is what I'm watching some of the generation doing. I know culturally it becomes the norm, you know. Just like I I don't I just need to hide from the world. It's like okay, go ahead. You know, but the world's coming. You know, who's who's in your corner? There's the thing. Like, don't hide hide yourself from the people that got you, got you, got you back. You know, that that's that's my big advice. Yeah don't hide. Just keep showing up. Yeah, keep showing up because that's that's what works. That's and that's what's what's worked so far. I I mean you already told me what you do. I'm telling you, keep doing it. You know, how would you know? Yeah, back back to it. How would you know? I don't know. I know a lot. I'm telling you, I got no idea, you know, but I know I got your back. And not just if you have my back. You know what I mean? It's it's like it's that thing. Yeah, and uh yeah. Anyways, there it was. That was a lot. Yeah. Did you all listen to all this?
SPEAKER_01:I can't believe there's people listening to this grandmore right now.
SPEAKER_04:They will. They will. Nate. It was good to get to know you more.
SPEAKER_01:It's great to chat with you. Yeah, I always enjoy it. Like I said before we hit the record button, I enjoy it every time.
SPEAKER_04:Any shout-outs?
SPEAKER_01:Shout out to all the amazing people in my life. You all know who you are. You're listening to this right now because you're amazing and you're in my life, and I appreciate you and I love you. There's too many of you to name, so I'm not gonna name you all.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you, Santa Cruz Vives magazine, point side beat check. You all have a good rest of your day.