Unpacked In Santa Cruz

Episode 74: Brian Upton: Hope And The Human Microphone, A Conversation About Community And Why Story Still Matters

• Mike Howard

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:20:59

The city is changing fast, and so are we. From rising rents and a shifting skyline to the quieter work of neighbors feeding neighbors, we unpack how hope can take root right in the middle of pressure—no slogans, just people doing the next right thing.

I sit down with Brian Upton, the mind behind Santa Cruz Vibes, to trace his path from hometown kid to media founder and to examine a different way to build a platform. We talk about why impressions aren’t the same as influence, how abdication (not charity) shapes trust, and what it means to hand 20% of your pages, screens, and mics to nonprofits with no strings attached. Brian breaks down the business side in plain terms and then flips it: numbers keep the lights on; narrative keeps the soul intact.

We go deeper on grief for a city that won’t return to what it was—and why that might be a good thing. Equity asks more of us than nostalgia. We explore the tension between local problems and global patterns, the myth of Santa Cruz exceptionalism, and the real stakes of transforming a small, magnetic place where wealth and working-class realities sit shoulder to shoulder. Along the way we share a practical philosophy for creators: treat each episode like a message in a bottle and let go of the scoreboard. Expectation kills meaning; presence creates it.

AI threads through our talk as both tool and test. If algorithms deliver answers faster than we can form questions, what remains for people? Craft, conversation, and honest rooms. Why we use technology on the back end and guard the front end as human. Think cave painting, not clickbait: make something true, send it into the world, and resist the urge to manipulate. That’s how stories build communities instead of silos.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who cares about community, and leave a review with one takeaway that stuck with you. Your words help others find the conversation.

Nostalgia, Gear, And The Setup

SPEAKER_00

Here we go.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so uh this is a new one. I actually bought this one.

SPEAKER_00

You did? I've got a form of one setup, you know. Like it just reminds me of the beginning. It's uh we've moved on to still still in that zoom, but we went on to Rodcaster. But this is nostalgic. This one has batteries, right?

SPEAKER_02

And it'll always lose a date. Well done unpacked in Santa Cruz.

SPEAKER_00

Time is manufactured by the man. What's a date? Who made that date up?

SPEAKER_02

Okay, to my audience who has been requesting the man, the myth, the legend. Brian Upton.

SPEAKER_00

Slow down. Pump the pr you know, pump the brakes on that a little bit. How are you, brother? Thanks for coming in.

Meet Brian Upton

SPEAKER_02

Hey, so I I'm gonna hit you with the first one. Santa Cruz. What's the first thing you think?

Santa Cruz Now: Pressure And Hope

SPEAKER_00

Cope. That's the first word. I was being I don't think there was a millisecond between that. I kind of surprised myself with that answer, but I think that's on the tip of my head right now. Say more. Um I think right now the you know, with ongoing dialogue, uh you you know me. I always like to talk in the micro, the macro. The micro, we've got Santa Cruz conversations going on, massive transformation in our cityscape, um, insecurity, financial insecurity, housing, insecurity, food for our South County partners. Um, the macro is what's going on on a national and global level that leads to a little bit more pressure. Uh, but the word hope, I think, comes from um specifically the ability through this media company, this platform, Santa Cruz Vibes, print the podcast network, the TV network. Um, it's allowed me to instead of being observational and kind of maybe having a feeling about the world and and and kind of like waiting for it to give you better or be get better or be confounded by why it is the way it is. Um, this platform, because of how we've structured it, kind of puts me more in the front lines and at tables and in conversations with people that are uh truly out there as we sit here, have a cup of coffee, podcasting, are directly affecting change in our community. Now, within that is the vulnerability that each of them have with the same sort of fears and um uh you know that that somebody that runs a nonprofit that's running a food bank or making sure that power gets to houses that don't have it or internet, um, it doesn't make them immune to the same insecurities we have. But what they're doing on a daily basis, at some point they've chosen to go back and affect change as they're trying to figure it out. And I think that's the big difference. And I think through, I think it's 37 or 42 circling nonprofits over the last two and a half years that we're now working with in vibes. And not nonprofits are not the end all be all and the cure for everything. But I will tell you one, two words, I guess, that come out of it. Um, when I work with hand in hand is commitment and hope. And so overall, as hard as it is in Santa Cruz, the what's the vibe Santa Cruz and what's going on here, is it perfect? No way, you know, and but then again, you sort of have to have it a comparable. Is it perfect in the micro? No. Is it perfect inside the macro? The macro is not perfect, the macro is really confused right now. Go to Minnesota, yeah, you know, go to Ukraine. Yeah. Um, nobody has it easy, but I do think um if people were to engage a little more and maybe instead of um kind of like drive-by sort of activism, maybe invest a little bit more time, they would have that same feeling I've got right now, which is hope.

SPEAKER_02

Interesting. You know, I I Well, let's let let's let's do at least the interview portion here a little bit before we drive into that too much. You know, for my audience, that this is the publisher of my podcast, um, you know, Brian Brian's got Santa Cruz Vibes magazine. I'm sitting in front of my main sponsor right now. That's right.

SPEAKER_00

Well, we got some good news on that later, but let's keep going.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, but but um you know, my audience really wanted to get to know you more. Well, it's there we go. My audience. The audience wanted to get to know you more, whoever you are. I don't know, but I you know, I I I do get requests most to like hear your story. Um, because, you know, I think for the people that have listened to me, you know, they went through that year and a half cycle of of me really sorting some shit out and then landing here where we are, just so we're sitting on our year anniversary of this new format. And the biggest request is like, we actually love Brian, we want to know who he is. And so why don't you tell my audience just a little bit about who you are? Like, like you know, married married, got kids, you know, the cliff notes. You you went from taking care of yards to taking care of the community, like like it's crazy. Yeah, yeah.

Who Is Brian: Roots And Career Swerves

SPEAKER_00

I think um the Cliff Notes version and sort of the the Hollywood trailer version is um, you know, mom and dad married at 17 and 18. Uh, he busted away from home, uh, joined the Marines, went to Vietnam. I was born and raised in Santa Cruz, other than being born in Santa Cruz. I was told the story of my mom's water broke in Capitola. We were in a car. I was born at Camp Pendleton, back up here 20 hours later. I can't affit, well, because it's a different time, you know, military time, everything's she was in there overnight and back on the road with my grandma and grandpa the next day. So uh full street cred. I was not born.

SPEAKER_02

Well, dude, you were born in San Clemente, so like that's that's double street cred. That's exactly right. You were you are you're T Street boy.

SPEAKER_00

Two good spots. Two good spots. Um my dad was a, you know, as far as that one goes, just the quick version forward, um, more traditional time. My dad was a Santa Cruz police officer, homicide, gang unit, juvie, um for 30 years. Um, and in that he was very active in the community, taught at Cabrillo, taught at all the high schools, coached football. Um, and I played football for him in high school and I played football at Cabrillo. Um, really just a traditional Santa Cruz childhood, you know, skate parks, surfing. I was always the from the day I got in the water, though, I've I was a 60-year-old surfer from 12 years old on. Perfect conditions, two to foot, two to four foot, longboard. Longboard. I never had any intention, anything more than just being kind of communing with the water. And I'm not saying I was having that thought when I was there. Yeah. But I knew that with my life, I collected comic books. I played Dungeons and Dragons down in the Cooper House, surfing and skating were a part of it, but they all had their equal category. But real traditional life that way. And um, you know, for me, it was kind of finding my way, went to culinary school, um, and got a didn't know that about you. No, but I got an internship at the Sheraton, San Francisco. Now, culinary back in the 80s was very different. It was not food network, it was not sexy. Culinary, when I was in culinary school, I was 19, and the next youngest was 32 uh years old. And it was a grinder industry. And in the back of the kitchen, then it was cocaine and it was wine, and it was 18, 20 hour days.

SPEAKER_02

I I don't know that the maybe the hours have changed.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And you know, and and so I I think I was enjoying it. Um, believe me, being a 19-year-old in a culinary school or class with 12, 13 other people, a couple of them early 30s women, it was not the worst spot to be in. Um, but I did realize um Clint, who was my you know professor there, really was very truthful about the rigors of what we were going into. And I partook in all of the bad parts of it. I was sort of a baby Anthony Bourdain at that point. Um and as driving up to the uh internship up in San Francisco of Highway One, Giants game was on, and I was kind of making better time than I thought, pulled off the side of the road and just made that decision right there that I wasn't gonna go in that career. And I never went. I never, and that was the last day I did any organized cooking. But um, and quickly thereafter, my buddy who played football with me, signed with the New York Giants. I went to Rome. I stayed back east, um, but in betwixt there, I met at Essex Junction over in San Jose, a 20-year-old Stacy Versteag. Um, and we lightning struck and then we separated for a while when I was back east, but um ended up getting married when I was 21, 22. We rocked out three kids. They're 34, 30, and 29. Um, serial entrepreneur. I've owned, you know, five, five careers, four of them I've owned. Um the only one was the last one, landscaping, you know, where I wasn't. And uh, once the kids all graduated, we uh found our way back to Santa Cruz. Stacey's a health manager for Sutter Health Bay Area, and um I run a struggling magazine in a Thriving Podcast Empire. How's that?

Old Santa Cruz Vs Emerging City

SPEAKER_02

How's that? Uh the this can be a real fun question. The the Santa Cruz of old to where Santa Cruz is emerging, right? You know, we we we know what the experience is, you know, it's been talked about exhaustively on this podcast. You know what it was, the freedom, all that kind of thing. Uh we're we're when the earthquake happened, we were trying to get back to what it was, you know, like developing downtown and and just try to reinvigorate that thing. And you know, and it had its cycle, you know, and we're emerging into this next thing that it's nowhere near becoming what it's going to be. You of most of my friends are smack dab in the middle of what that process feels like. And it's intriguing to me that you said hope, you know, at the beginning. That's what you're thinking. I I'm going through the most hopeful moment of my life right now. But everything's changing. And, you know, those pressures are new, they're different. Move from the town I'm from to Southside. I'm yeah, you know, I'm Mr. Aptosia now and getting heckled every time I show up. As you should be at Companion Bakery or anywhere, any other restaurant in Aptos by all my Southside friends that I now have to respect, yeah, that I've given shit to my whole life for being down there. But uh, you know, in this reality that we're in, you know, I I think you can speak to this v like with a clearer uh view because you're actually in the middle of it with what you're doing. You know, that contradiction of the Santa Cruz we've known to the potential future, you know, with whatever 3,000 new apartments we have there, which means 3,000 new people that will call the police.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You know, the the this this thing that's going to be something we haven't known before, and there's there's all that stuff. When you look at those two things, you know, uh you know, a community that's trying to or has tried to hold on to the past, but the past is clearly done. When you look to Santa Cruz in the future, you know, what what what are you seeing emerging?

SPEAKER_00

Um I think for me, uh as you ask that question, the only thing I keep thinking of is um overall evolution. You know, an evolution, my point being this is like I think what we do is we're going through a grieving process of what was. And there's a segment that, um, and this isn't unique to say a generation. Uh the way the conversation we're having right now is mostly relevant to say somebody in their early mid-20s to death.

unknown

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00

You know, that would see Santa Cruz, probably mid-late 20s, where they might see Santa Cruz even from a 10, 15 year perspective, for us 40, 50 years, for some people 70, 80 years. You look in those windows, and there's two parts of it, which is in the uh a cityscape, a village, a town, and even you know, where we are right now, would be unrecognizable if you just skip one or two generations for anybody. And each generation has to, in some way, grieve two things. One of them, their mortality, that they will not be here much longer, and at the same time, what was. And so those two things kind of conflict a little bit. It's I'm not gonna be on this planet for a long time, and my creature comforts that I knew and the comforts I had that I learned, the language I learned of this town, are now being handed off to a younger generation who are different than us, hopeful. Go talk to a 12-year-old right now, talk to a 15-year-old right now, and see if they're gonna get mixed up in this negative conversation overall outside of some influence. Um, and it gets very dicey now with social media, X, uh, TikTok, and all of these ones. Once you get into mid-teens, later teens, um, you can make an argument that the camps are starting being formed a little bit. But I'm answering your question in a convoluted way, but what I'm saying is I think we need to step back and recognize that why do we want what was? Why do we hold on to what existed and we fear change? There's, and I think it's twofold because you have, and I think you have to always go a little bit deeper with that. Why do I feel that way? Why do I feel that way about 3,000 housing units? Yeah. And you would make the mark is they're breaking this. They're breaking what we knew this town was. And the first step you have to do, and this really gives me a lot of solace, is that the town that we knew was wasn't good for everybody. It wasn't equitable. And we still have the same problem as far as equity and access. But you got to remember a lot of times it's a singular view. It was good for me. It was good for my family. And what happens is in societies is we grow right now, and I do think we need these um gatekeepers, gatekeepers of narrative, gatekeepers of basically humanity, gatekeepers of kindness, where we have these narratives as we build and we expand. The goal right now is to try to find connection, humanity, interpersonal connections as we as we change and evolve. Santa Cruz gets thrown under the bus right now, and this is my opinion: being born and raised here, leaving for a significant amount of time, and then coming back here, you know, 12, 13 years ago, is that a lot of what's wrong with Santa Cruz right now, if you want to say that, isn't what's wrong with Santa Cruz. It's a broader scope of what's gone on with society over that exact same time frame. We can say an earthquake, we can say the earthquake just happened to coincide within two years of a 24-7 news cable cycle and the internet. And so we say the earthquake came and we lost our culture.

SPEAKER_01

Hmm.

Grief, Change, And Equity

SPEAKER_00

Did the earthquake come two years before chat rooms? Did the earthquake come two years before 24-7 pounding news cycle, debates, anger? Um, I think what's happening right now isn't so much a Santa Cruz issue to wind down and answer your question as far as like what do I see the future for Santa Cruz? I see Santa Cruz going through the same band-aid pool, the same pain as the country, the world. It's it's a transition period for the species right now. And in Santa Cruz is where we live and we care about it, but this is bigger than you know 95062.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, let me throw this football and see if see if it's a catchable pass. I got good hands. Yeah, you do have good hands. Football coach here. Uh one of the things that that Kim has been hammering, especially this last week, you know, is that Santa Cruzans think they're so unique. And really these problems are everywhere. She's from South Bend, Indiana. Yeah. You know, what one of the you know, there's a lot of friction there. They have big universities that they have they have all all the same shit we do. But they've thrived. And you know, she's not from here, would never say she's from here. Now, granted, she's lived here for 35 years, she's only 50. You know, it's like if she's from anywhere, it's here. Yeah. Uh, but there's this cultural nuance of you're not from here. It doesn't matter how long you live here, if you're happen to be born 30 miles from here, you're you're not that person. And so she finds that conversation very frustrating, this attitude that we have. But what is unique about Santa Cruz, and I and I and I think you might share this, is that we are just such a hotbed of talent and such a reflection of the country, and it's such a small area to be reflecting so many different ideas. And as I've expressed on the podcast, you know, I I really do believe that the reason there's so much friction here in this town is that people move here to try to mellow out. You know, that that it's a very competitive, very um ingenuitive place to be, yet you can still kind of hide. You know, you don't have to be in the hubs of the valley or Los Angeles, and you still have these connections to those what what those regional resources bring. Right. You know, it it hosts all of that stuff, whether it's global, whether it's California, you know, it it lays host to diversity in a strange way, but the diversity it hosts is from a very uh very competitive group trying to be somewhere where at least it feels peaceful. And and in that view, I you know, I guess the pass I'm I'm I'm trying to trying to throw is is you just echoed something, you know, that that my wife said there there's the you know, there's the statement that I put in that, but I haven't heard yet from another person all of the world is going through what we're going through, and it seems like almost we feel all of the world also because much of the world is here. And you know, one of the strange nuances about my podcast is that you know, my audience is 33 countries, like I I barely I barely have any listeners here, which is weird. You know, it's almost 400 cities across the country. It's not it's not a local audience, and and and it strikes me to the diversity of people that I'm sitting and interviewing, right? Right, right, because it's not because someone in Lithuania is looking for Michael Howard and looking for a new podcast. Someone from Lithuania is connected to the person that I interviewed. That's that's it's that's how how that's happening, yeah, as best as I can guess through my metrics. You know, we don't we don't have all the all that data available about how that's sourced out, you know, whether it's through Instagram or whatever. But but like it just speaks to what I felt when I when we decided a year ago, like look, here's where I'm going. I'm going small ball, five new listeners, you know, five new f followers on Instagram, everything fresh. Let's just see what happens when I do it the way I know how to do it, rather than trying to advertise my way into something.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You know, keeping it fresh that way. Uh to me, it might just be confirmation bias, you know, which I have to leave room for. But at the same time, it's also demonstrating the reality, you know, that that we are a very diverse community in some strange way, even though we're not that ethnically diverse per se. Per se.

Local Issues In A Global Mirror

SPEAKER_00

It depends on the city proper. When you get down to zip codes, correct. When you get down to 270 plus thousand in a county, very diversified. And I'm including just, you know, basically, you know, the the 98, 97% blank in Santa Cruz City, and then you blend in the county, and all of a sudden you get 49% Hispanic and you start blending it out a little bit. So I do think I'll answer it in two parts. One of them is very unique because of this, not just the diversity of what a census would say, but there's a diversity here as far as the ability to farm the land, the ability from climate to be able to do things 365 days a year, the logistics with our southern neighbors, that we do have a tremendous amount of human diversity in this Monterey Bay Area. And it's just it's bookended with sort of, you know, absolute, you know, when you get Carmel, Monterey, Santa Cruz, it's just bookended with excess. It's bookended with um unsurvivable um financial inequities. And in the middle is the working kind of part. And the working part in a lot of ways starts to begin sort of midtown. And the farther you go south, it's, and I'm not saying that there's pockets here, but um if you look at it that way, um, you know, we're incredibly diversified as far as the humans that are here and conversations to be had. Um, but I think also statistics show it is in a zip code, Capitola, Santa Cruz, Aptos' areas, um, one of the most expensive places, not only in the United States, but on the planet to live. And and that, and that creates um, so you have a very kind of hardworking working wage demographic when you get to the county with um uh uh unequaled millions and millions and billions of dollars in investment properties, housing, things like that. That's that band-aid pull we're going through right now. You know, we're going through how do how do you balance these two basically extremes? You know, I went to concert at the Fillmore last year, um, his opening band for Guster. I can't remember who it was, but the guy uh basically stopped after his first song and he was stricken by it. He was stricken by what they saw walking to the venue from their hotel. And he was actually asking the audience, do you guys know how weird this is? And I think he was from some Midwest town, that they don't see that striking inequity between, you know, what the hotel they walked out of, the excess, and walking to the Fillmore, what they saw on the street, um, it emotionally took him back a little bit. And I think in this town, in this county, um, in the back of it, it's not a forefront. You know, the the for the the front end of it is clearly how do we create affordable housing? How do we basically do this? And it's an almost impossible puzzle piece with how close we are to Silicon Valley, with the weather we have here, the nature of how attractive this place is to live. Um, I think the balance people are looking for in this town might be unachievable as far as everybody having the same thing. But the one thing we do have in common, and that's what I find through vibes and through conversations like this, why I love these platforms is um the human narrative, a conversation over coffee, for that little micro moment, that intangible moment, um, there's equity in conversation. It's me talking to you, it's us working, stepping in with nonprofits, um, elevating art or music or things like that. There's equal standing in the room for that. You know, and that's that's I think, um, and kind of getting back around to uh the overall kind of like question and the the the underlying theme of hope is I am a true believer that the unique left turn that we took as a species, um, roughly 60, 90,000 years ago, um consciousness, language, and narrative and that can be used for what we would use, these words which are also made up, good and bad. Um, I think narrative is incredibly powerful. We've talked about this before, that um it's it's a narrative that um money's a narrative, government laws are narratives, religious institutions are narratives, people believe in together. You know, that becomes a belief system, a belief in financial currency is people agreeing that we all agree that I'm gonna float some stuff through the air, give you seven bucks for a latte, and the bank says that money's good, so never we never transact. But if you take that all the way backwards, it can be a little overwhelming. But if you realize the power of narrative and you don't need a million dollars in the bank, you don't need to have three houses, you don't need to have anything, um, to basically engage and create a narrative, your own story. Um, that's incredibly powerful. And if you commit to it and you basically commit to other people in the community, um, I do believe narratives can change not only our culture, if that whatever bullshit word we're using for that, um, but I think it can get people agency in their own life, and agency in a community is this part.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So on my end. You know, I'm having I'm getting to a spot where I'm having to reconcile the reality that there's influence coming through this microphone. Yeah. You know, uh the reactions I'm getting from people I know, people I don't know, you know, their their needs that they're essentially coming to, you know, the to me with. And you know, as I expressed a year ago, it ends up I'm just a pastor still.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

Diversity, Inequality, And Housing Reality

SPEAKER_02

You know, you know, that that uh ends up people just need a cup of coffee and a conversation. You know, that that that's the perspective that I have holding this microphone and and doing the thing that I'm doing and and not treating it like it's bullshit. You know, like like the two hours that I get to spend with someone really matters in that two hours. What what the data is, you know, that I go to look to my phone to, you know, whether whether it's on our on our you know, podcast platform or or through Instagram to kind of see whatever's getting traction, you know, that that's some media stuff that that I'm getting familiar with. And it it you know, it grinds on me. Yeah, because you know, there's certain realities of just who I am and wanting to have an impact. But we do have these things, you know, like social media that that are influencing people. You know, clearly I'm silly enough to think that me talking in front of a microphone is somehow gonna benefit anybody. And I I'm learning not to be cynical about that. But it has really got me the last month, you know, sitting with this idea of influence and what we do with it. And as someone who has spent their whole life taking massive amounts of responsibility, you know, that that's you know, I I I don't expect the average human to think the way that I think, but accountability of outcome is just part of my DNA. You know, i if I do something, how does it affect others? Right with influence being thrown around, you know, which which is which is certainly something I've experienced as of late. Uh and how we throw around our influence and the impact of that thing. How how do you feel with the influence that you're having right now with vibes? You know, because you know, I've watched you. Yeah, like we we we you were a weird piece of rescue for me. And and uh you didn't know me, you were just kind.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, just a cup of coffee.

SPEAKER_02

And we were trying stuff out, and you know, you you were willing to take the time to to help me sort my words out or what I was really trying to get to. And so and so I know I know your nature by what you did to me, you know, or did for me. You didn't do anything to me. You did something for me that nobody else could do, right? Right in that moment, and that's what influence does. You know, it's either for the good of the other person or it's harming the other person in some way. Watching you, you know, as as we were six months in, like, I have this magazine. Yeah, you know, and not knowing what that meant. Yeah. Yeah. And you catching stride now two years later, of like it means something now, and it means something to a community. Yeah, there's transactions happening. And the commerce can can pull a veil over what's happening. You know, for me, not knowing yet what kind of influence like actual physical influence I'm I'm I'm gonna move into because things are emerging, you know, of things that I can do to help my community out, you know, how it's reached out to me. And you know, the little meetings and the little things that that I will be privileged to. Yeah. I have to carefully consider because it's so individual, you know, what I step into.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

You're living in this other macro side of it, right? Where it's just like we have general influence, we're developing it. Where's this going? You have the unfortunate circumstance in a way of having to monetize that to keep that influence going. Yeah. I don't view that as an evil thing in any way. You know, that that's that's not not the point of what I'm saying, but but but the realities of, you know, and I like how you said this, you know, that capitalism is a strange piece of hope. You know, that that that this idea that there's enough surplus and enough to go around really matters, and the dollar is worth something because we believe it's worth something, and that's not nothing.

Narrative As Civic Power

SPEAKER_00

No, we're not going to get away from it. In our lifespan, you have different opportunities at different times. Um, but the time for fighting this model, fighting this system that we're in, um that is not a winnable battle in this window. Times may come, things may, a rebellion may come 100 years from now, 200 years from now. There might be a singular mindset, a singular dollar that blends everything out, but it ain't now, and it's not anytime close. And so you can either like like turtle and say, I can't handle all of this, but it is the world we're living in, or you can basically try to affect change where you can live with this environment we do, and try to basically um kind of adapt to the exact time frame that we're living in this life. But to get back to the influence question is, and I genuinely mean this, is like that's not the way I look at it. And I've never have, and I think it probably saves my sanity a little bit. I will tell you the one thing the business side of vibes isn't influencing. The business side of vibes is generating impressions. I will give you that part of it. When it's all said and done, um, you know, for me, the business is creating impressions with podcasts, creating impressions with the TV network, creating impressions with radio ads, podcast reads, and then of course, four times a year with the magazine. And I can tell you in an elevator pitch that, you know, we can create um, you know, 32 million impressions with the TV network as it stands right now. We can create 500,000 impressions with this magazine. We can create 15 to 25,000 impressions with the podcast network and 25 to 35,000 impressions with radio ads. And that's just the business. But I will tell you the one thing about the way I look at it and the way I kind of handle it is um influence to me, influencers, influencing is too close to me to converting, you know, and converting people to my line of thinking is never my intention. All I'm having in the Vibes magazine is an extension of the conversations and the my singular view of the world. You know, that that's it. It's and it's more, think of it as a one-way street. I don't expect anything from this. I do have to generate impressions to pay rent. It is just my chosen business model is to is a media company. But the one thing we realized two or three years ago is um that is unique about Vibes is why can't I do this capitalistic thing? Why can't I go create a company that's going to generate more impressions than anyone else in our competitive market? And instead of me going out and killing it and in five or 10 years giving back to the community, the thing that sets us apart, which does save my brain as hard as it's been, is we abdicated 20% of all those platforms to nonprofits from day one. And now that changes everything for me because it puts me in a different position where one, I'm on that treadmill, two, I'm meeting people that I never would have met before. Because instead of me giving them anything, and there's a big difference between me giving them space in the magazine, because that gets a little too close to like that save your complex kind of mentality, which is like, you're welcome, abdicating that space, truly abdicating that space is that's 20% that is not mine anymore. And when I say 20% of the platforms, it's not giving them the pages. I don't, I don't write it off on taxes. You know, we we we definitely could. We could take the 20% of the pages we give to nonprofits, get a letter from the nonprofits, and Stacey and I can get a huge tax break for it. I've never taken one tax break for that relationship. We abdicate that space wholly so there's no strings attached, no agenda. It literally is we create a company, every five podcasts we create, one nonprofit. Every 100 pages we put out, we know that 20 pages are going to nonprofits. We put out 60 million impressions on the TV network when we get 100 screens out, you know, they're getting 20, 15 or 18 or 20 million of those. But let's stay in that influencer conversation, is because I think influencing is very close in the same kind of syntax as, you know, for me, in security. And influencing people and feeling the need to influence people into your line of thinking, um, for me is on the opposite side of the street where I ever want to be. I want to have conversations. I have no problem answering a question to from somebody about what my point of view is. But if I had a stake in the game of influencing their point of view, I kind of feel like it's corrupted. I kind of feel like if I go and like right now, let's say, until we're having this conversation right now, driving over here, making my cup of coffee, no one else can put headphones on talk with you. There was not one thought of influencing you. I was gonna come coming over here to have a conversation.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And when we put a photo in here, I write an editorial, I'm barfing out my thoughts and I float it out there. I barf out, they read an editorial mind. Um, I don't need anything back. I don't ask people to fucking hit me back or put a QR code with what do you think?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's just my thought. It's for you to get a cup of coffee, read another human's thoughts, and maybe one of those parts of that conversation, um, you know, possibly, you know, I guess down the road would make initiate a conversation in your mind that you hadn't had before. But it's the same, my thought with vibes is the same way as somebody recommending a great book or a movie to you. They're not influencing you, they're not telling you, hey, you have to go see this movie and you have to love it. You just said I saw a rad movie.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And that's that's the way I feel about um, you know, for me, it's the same way we raised our kids. Um, you know, uh, it's very overwhelming to have kids when you're that young, 21 and 22. I'm familiar. You're the same. Um, but I know Stacy and I did have that conversation was is we didn't want to make many Brian and Stacy's. We didn't want to basically, you can't get away from quote unquote um uh, you know, I didn't sports, music, all of these things that they wanted to do. The only rule we had in our house was uh we don't care what you do, just finish that act. But I didn't push them towards like we didn't vicariously live through our kits. He wants to, you know, basically uh, you know, uh go play Dungeons and Dragons with his friends, that's fine. She wants to do travel softball, down with it. The other one wants to be an actress and sing, do it. Just finish it. Um, but I do think that the influencing game is, you know, if you think of the imagery of Oz behind the curtain, I think the behind the curtain of influencing, the behind the curtain of this current kind of model is terrible insecurity.

Influence, Impressions, And Intent

SPEAKER_02

Let's stay here. Okay, for those of you who have listened to me, that you know, we're actually in a really deep scene what Brian's opened up. And one of the primary flaws that pastors fall into because they are intending to have good influence on communities. Like that this is the reality. It's not born of ill will, anything like that. But once you gain influence with the people that are showing up to your congregations, you're sharing your perspective about this book that we have in common about a God that I believe loves us all. The problem in ministry is that pastors have a tendency to infantilize their congregation. And you know, I'm watching social media, I'm watching these quote unquote influencers then do the same things with bigger audiences, you know, where they're treating them like their children. And you and I share a very similar perspective uh as it pertains to raising kids. We did our best to try to not do that. I don't know that we were did that well at it, to be honest. I would agree with that on our own side also. That that that it was better than the person around me doesn't make it good. You know, like like this the uh on these comparison charts that we do as yeah as human beings of like, yeah, I beat so-and-so, like who cares? So-and-so sucks.

SPEAKER_00

You know, it's and and even and you have to question, did that even happen? Because as you and I spoke before, we're never a villain in our own narrative.

SPEAKER_02

No, no. And and this infantilization process, you know, really ends up developing the savior complex that that that just comes from doing anything of influence, right? Uh, you know, again, I don't know whether that's a question or a statement. No, you know, it just it just is sitting in the seam of like, you know, I I really am constantly having to question my motives before these microphones go on, like every time. But you know, I'm used to this pattern because that's what I did for 25 years. Like, why am I deciding to talk to these people about this? Like, what's in my heart? Am I sorting my shit out in front of everybody? Probably. Always part of it. But you in this process, are they benefited by this? Thing that I'm doing, you know, because I don't want anybody to, you know, certainly, you know, step away from from what I'm doing here and feel harmed by it. And so it's been great so far. I I'm I there there isn't anybody I look at that's like, right, can't believe I did that. No, you know, granted, I think most people who come and sit on the podcast don't even listen to their own voice. You know, they don't they don't want to hear their podcast, which is hilarious to me. Yeah. You know, how few people go back and listen to what they said.

SPEAKER_00

And I also think there's a part of podcasting that this goes into therapy. This goes into the thing we all have, is which is I think we all to certain extents live with that, as my therapist calls it, like that massive self-critic. And they can be bigger or smaller, whatever it is. But um, most of the time, you know, you have sort of like a critical analysis of yourself. I'm not talking totally negative, but we're just more um, I think when we're singular view in, um we're just getting shit done, we're kind of moving through the day. We might be fucking idiot. Why didn't you get that? Little things like little self-narratives of like kind of hard on ourselves. A podcast platform, especially when you're a guest, is a really, it's kind of a nice time to be kind to yourself because you're being asked questions, you're not asked questions on the regular basis. Um, the guest, the host is actually kind of leading you towards questions that are going to engage time and space in the conversation and they can be a little bit flattering, things you don't talk about on a regular basis. So I think two parts of it. I'd put a singular value that this medium has tremendous value for that alone. And the other one, when I do podcast management, which is whether we're either producing and/or like some of the ones out of Minnesota and other ones we do, is I do more consulting on those. And the thing I always tell, the first thing I tell is like expectations. I told you the same thing the first time we sat down. Don't look at those numbers because the numbers will take care of themselves. And the the best example I always give is um we're sitting here in the Deweick Brothers right now, and thank you, by the way, for them opening this up again. Um, and behind me, how many people could sit on those couches? Eight?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

Abdicating Space To Nonprofits

SPEAKER_00

Ish. Is that about right? Well, what if what if on Monday you said, hey, I just kind of want to have an open conversation and you said, I got eight spots, and just DM me if you want to come in and have a conversation about blank. Let's say it filled up real quick, eight people, and you're like some of the ninth one says, No, we're kind of we're full right now. Well, if you got here and all eight people were here and you had an engaging hour and a half conversation about that thing you wanted to talk about, would you feel fulfilled? Yeah. Yeah, because your expectations were eight. Yeah. And you wouldn't probably be thinking here, go, I wish this was a hundred. And let's say the next time you basically did it and you did 26. And 25 of the 26 people showed up, you had that engaging. It's our perception, it's our expectations that are our biggest enemy. And so in the podcasting world, we want to be um, we want there's some part of it that says, this is going to go viral. This is going to give me some kind of meaning. There's going to be eventually a number that's going to give me this full cut feeling. And I think it lives in a much smaller world than that. I think every single one of these podcasts that we manage individually, if they're just a room full of people and it's 30, 60 downloads, which leads to a couple hundred listens, if you put that into another context and you walked into, I always use Cruz Io as an example. I think it holds 40 people in the Ross classroom. If on a regular basis you were going every week to the Ross classroom and 40 people were in there engaging and enjoying the conversation, signing up for it, the minute they walked out to sign up and come back that next Thursday, you'd be stoked beyond belief. But that number, for some reason, um diminishes in the real world of stats in analytics, 40 downloads a week, 100 downloads a week, 200 downloads. It it for some reason and eventually, and this is the this is the spiral of social media, is even if it blows up to 600 downloads a week, is that enough?

unknown

No.

SPEAKER_00

It's not going to be enough. It's going to be enough that first week. I'm blowing up. Everybody's listening to me. I have this quote unquote influence. And the two truths that can exist at the same time. Is that um one of them is do I look for influencing in the content we create, these conversations we're having, the answers no, because I think that's how I keep my sanity and I think it keeps it very real. Can these words influence somebody? Yes. But if you're expecting it to influence, or you're expecting some kind of reaffirmation or some kind of validation that that influence is happening, you're going to be disappointed.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And so to the audience of this podcast, if you were wondering why I started and stopped so often this this last year, it was to these words you just heard from Brian. And I don't want to diminish the reality that I probably know two of you in Switzerland. I don't know the six, though.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02

You know, the three or four listeners I have in England. I know one of them. I know somebody there. You know, so it it's easy for me to look at some of the charts that I'm looking at and going, oh, they're so-and-so. That's cool that they're listening. And you know, I miss them. And, you know, imagine having my trip out there to go see them again.

SPEAKER_00

And and that that's not that longing for friendship, but yeah, but the easier way to think about podcasting is more uh message in a bottle. And what if the message in the bottle was just hope you have a great day?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Now where that ended up and who read that, you'll never know. Yeah. And it would be the feeling of putting in the bottle, floating out to the water, knowing that was going to wash up on another shore, somebody was going to read, have a good day with no phone number, no QR code, no agenda. That in the that's the essence of podcasting. And God bless you, if you hit, you hit. Yeah. And that's out there and then it's its own little model. But I think even if you hit and the ones that do have massive followings, I'm not talking about the celebrity ones that kind of have a built-in audience. I'm talking about podcasts that hit a tone, found an audience. Um, but the difference between episode one and 300 with some of those ones is they were organic and real and had uh they might have a good concept, a good idea, great guests, um, but I think they stayed true to themselves through that podcast from beginning to end.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and and it, you know, it's a weird juxtapose, right? You know, because I stepped out of one world, you know, took my pause for seven years and stepped into another one that kind of lives in similar seam that way. You know, all that being said, you know, it was at jujitsu where I learned not to have an agenda while I'm trying not to die and trying to kill somebody else. Right. No agenda though, because you're never gonna get good enough. And the piece of humility that that that that has allowed me to carry, right? Right. I don't I don't have to be top of the lineup out in the water anymore. Right. You know, it's it's democracy there.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Like any given day, somebody's gonna kick your ass.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You just gotta deal with it. Put your ego aside. You either had your shit or you didn't. That moment, yeah, there will be another moment. Yeah. Don't worry about it. Might be years, but you know, you know, what whatever this thing is, is you know, my approach on this is just that. And trying to position my heart, you know, to that spot of like the data doesn't matter, the run is the run, however, the numbers look. I don't know these people. You know, like there's there's no like there's connection, and clearly my tone of voice is okay for microphones. Like there, there's all these variables. Yeah. You know, as I've had someone, you know, DM me, like, dude, I go to go to sleep listening to your voice every night. It's weird. Same story. You know, it it it's I mean, it's it's fun, it's a nice pat on the back. I'm glad I'm soothing to you to be able to hear the stories about this town, but yeah. I don't know. You you know, it's it's it it it's it's uh you know, that reality of this really it's their relationship to it. It's not to me. That's it. Like I'm not in relationship with with with all of you that are listening. Not that I don't care about you, because I clearly do. Right. You know, like I'm I'm trying trying to spread upon relationship, but the the love that that I can have for humanity through this context. Yeah. It it's it it's really strange in a lot of ways. It's not it doesn't feel evil. It just is strange because it's different.

Expectations, Metrics, And Meaning

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And it has its own standing. I think it has its singular standing, um, which is I think you like anything else, you you come here and right now we're present in this moment, we're speaking in these microphones, the red light's on, it's recording, um, and then it'll be sent out into the universe. Some people will or will not listen to it, um, but you and I just go about our day after that. But this was an in this is a singular engaging moment, having some conversations, um, you know, and I think we're thinking out loud um about common subjects and common storylines that a lot of people are the beauty of this format is um to hear other people talk about vulnerabilities, to hear other people talk about even then this conversation influence, the state of Santa Cruz, all of these different things. Um, sometimes it's just nice to hear somebody else say something so you singularly don't feel alone. It's like like on Nelly's podcast, um uh Nelly's Magic Moments podcast is Dave Nelson's podcast because of his basically sobriety. We one of every four or five guests run into a really deep conversation about um the steps and sobriety and things like that. And I can't ever but help, and I say it out loud in the podcast, how meaningful that might be for one person that's listening in that one time, um, hearing Dave be super honest and super open about his journey, his sobriety, the extended family and network there. And if you're looking for a thousand downloads, um, you're gonna be basically chasing that. But if you kind of do that and think like uh maybe that one dinner conversation or coffee conversation or a podcast, um, maybe that single sentence, those two words put together are on the road in somebody's car at the exact right time. Yeah. I can't help but think that. So like in if I have hope for these podcasts, um, one, the business side, yes, blank podcast times, blank downloads equals blank impressions a week that goes into the universe we live in. Into the matrix. It goes in the matrix. But uh, but I think the the bigger hope I have for these overall is just people having conversations and understanding that um, you know, sort of having empathy and vulnerability and transparency um on air. I think of that one podcast you guys did about um the four of you did it. Um yeah, yeah. Men's mental health. Yeah. That was great. That was great. Hear dudes that you know in town that have been around forever uh kind of get uh, you know, get get real about uh mental health issues. Um, and that's where it does switch over. But even more so, it it makes me feel even more committed to what I talked about. That's four people talking about their journey that may or may not influence somebody. Um, but you can tell in that conversation, the way it flowed, they weren't thinking about the world or their influence during that moment. They're just having a conversation with three other dudes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and you know, to to that influence point, you know, what what those conversations for allowed to for on the privacy side has been amazing. You know, and and it's not just them, you know, that that there's something emerging that's real for people to actually connect with in our community because of those words and because of that moment. Yep. You know, and that's that's what I get to graduate into, is like, oh, the the people are collecting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, there's a community. Let's talk, let's have a steak, let's eat some food, let's be with each other because we apparently feel alone. No doubt. Even though we're not. And so, you know, to be able to pr have those opportunities arise out of you know, these things, these transactions right here of words.

SPEAKER_00

That's it. And you just said something that really makes I haven't thought about it till this exact moment is like um I think about my own agenda with vibes um and what we're doing over there, is that I already stated clearly that it's gathering impressions. But maybe as I'm thinking this through right now, is maybe the deal I've made with those impressions is that as a business model, we have an expectation or maybe a mission or commitment to those impressions that it's transactable. It's transactible in like the human space. Yeah. And so that maybe that's the small difference. I'm kind of thinking this through as I'm saying it right now, is that you know, maybe there's a part of what we're doing at Vibes with these podcasts, with the magazine, partnering with the nonprofits, abdicating that space is that maybe there's two ways to create this stigma, this word impression. Maybe it doesn't have to be such a negative thing. And and I I think about that with social media, and I think about that with keywords and algorithms, is that um it's pretty kind of a wake, an awakening moment right now. It's like we could have gone down a different path where we played the algorithm game and the keyword game.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it was it would have been more lucrative too. Way more lucrative.

Message In A Bottle Philosophy

SPEAKER_00

We would have been we would have been a for-profit company within probably six months if we would have played that game. But we do get, you know, the the nonprofit community engagement, um, you know, the the keywords we would use are would come out of an article we put on our site. Oh, I'd consider it lukewarm. It's not controversial, it's not gonna hit you in the face. Yeah. But would you rather have 80, say, meaningful connections or 1,200 algorithm and or basically um kind of um uh baiting kind of, you know, there's two different ways to get to say, would you rather have a thousand basically likes on something that is transient and passing, or would you rather have 80 likes that maybe create space, a relationship or space or equity, or um, and I know that's how we even sell the magazine to people is no, you don't you don't hire Santa Cruz Vibes as a media company if you're looking to get people into your restaurant on a Friday. There's a lot of other people, Daniel J, you know the you know, when there's people around you want you on a Wednesday, you want to get people to come do the cash register on Friday. You don't hire Vibes. Vibes is more the company you hire if you want people, instead of coming in two or three times a year, they come in five or six because they learn the narrative about your business. They get to know you better. Vibes is all about long-term brand implementation. These conversations we're having kind of bleed through our articles, the way we curate the magazine, the way we curate even our podcast kind of network is um it's it's it's a narrative-based media company, and we're in it for the long-term brand implementation from the business standpoint, but also maybe the human standpoint now that I think about it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So so I've been saving this question for you before I employ it with the practitioners. Oh boy. Okay. You have just hit on a macro capitalist concept in a deep social need in the middle of a language that we all speak together. And I will be more vocal about this and explain this more in later podcasts. But so that there's kind of four frames I want to put on here. Uh I I think the primary problem that we're having as a culture is that we don't realize we're always just talking about money. That that somehow the language we speak is not English, it's capitalism, and we don't know it. And so there's a disconnect because of the nature of money and its influence right now. And for any of you economists, you know what I'm saying. The money itself is making money, it no longer needs a market. Like the dollar is so erratic, and capitalism has succeeded so much that dollars don't need transactions anymore on products. You know, it's the the capital markets are insane right now. And that speaks to a principle. You know, it's it's a surplus mentality. It's easy, you know, when I when I take a half hour to explain it, which I will at some point in that metric. What we're calling artificial intelligence, so this is a big shift, right? Yeah, I like it. Uh is the intelligence of recorded history. And the problem of intelligence is twofold. Number one, if AI is what it appears to be, our problems are already solved. So that means there are no problems. The money is already there and it makes enough money, so there's enough money, and we can't reconcile that reality that if AI is real, the way that it's being portrayed at this point, I'm very, very close to it. I'm close to two very important projects right now. I'm consulting on the human level. And what does it mean to interact with this? How can we humanize this more? It's a very strange space because things are happening in there. Uh there are entities talking to Chat GPT. We don't know where those entities are. There are no VPN numbers. There is some other thing sitting behind what we built. And it's kind of alarming, you know, because we don't know how the the various AI models they're communicating with each other without us.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

Mental Health, Vulnerability, Connection

SPEAKER_02

But in that space of the problems already being solved and the money already being there, the only problem left is humans. And so that that is the quandary that we're in. And in this space of humans having so many problems with each other, you know, you you you have at least in my heart and in my you know macro understanding of of how systems just work. Whatever idiot savant I am, and seeing the systems the relevance for me to sit in front of a microphone and talk. Just to like, can we be human again? You know, a cup of coffee matters to somebody else. They're not being listened to. That's what I discovered. That's why I'm doing this. Because I was at it but what I was doing before was at its end. Uh no one needs to hear my story. It doesn't fucking matter. Right. You know, it's my story. Nobody cares. But it ends up people need to be cared for. That's my perspective about this. Just come, sit, I'll listen to you. I'll ask questions. Right. I'll love you where you're at right now for this two hours. You know, again, back to Pastor Guy. You know, I can't fix it, but I'll be here for you. When you're approaching media, I mean it sounds to me, you know, what media can do for humanity. Um there's this weird weight that sits with that. You know, it's not to call it influence, I I guess really is the wrong word. You know, because yeah, of course it's influence, duh. You know, we're we're leaning into it. Yeah. But in this space of of um chaos, you know, which is just things we haven't observed before, right? You know, it's they weren't not there, they're just have accumulated sitting in chaos theory now, not just capitalist theory and AI. It sounds to me like part of the goal of a magazine. I think we joked around about this, but it's not funny. You know, we're we're it it sounds to me like you're trying to humanize this prospect.

Capitalism’s Language And The Role Of Media

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think so. I think I think as um uh listen to you talk, and I'm thinking about where does uh Santa Cruz Vibes magazine fit in the world, um, an evolving world. And I think no matter what ends up going, and there's the arc and the pace of artificial intelligence, um, especially as it comes into repetitive acts, um, you know, in the level of of coding and basically logistics and things like that. I do think there's a reckoning coming as far as um the efficiency of artificial intelligence clearly is a more efficient path to a lot of these uh basically processes. And I think we're already seeing it everywhere. Um, and what what purpose does vibes have in the world to answer that question is um there's 84 pages here um and it's art and it's nonprofits and it's human conversation. And I think as artificial intelligence evolves, I think the essence of humanity over the next zero to 20, 30, 100 years, whatever it might be, is only gonna be elevated. I think creativity, singular, non-assisted artificial intelligence production, human narrative, human art, music, you know, it's gonna AI can create concerts, AI can create rap songs, AI can, AI is amazing. I was watching my kid's friend the other day, and we just scribbled down some lyrics, you know, put it into notebook and popped out a rap song about all of his interests, and it was probably better than a lot what's on the radio right now. Um but clearly that is a human input, and you kind of put it out as look what AI made for Smitty kind of thing. And it's and so it's qualified. I use that to get here. But I think, you know, kind of when I look down at this magazine, is um, I think the idea of a whale getting ready to basically go underwater with a massive tail, knowing it's gonna go 20 miles an hour with tons of weight, um, that has higher standing in this world than it would have even say 30 years ago, you know, where um I think as we uh keep you know catapulting towards a more autonomous society, we can't stop a lot of this. There's not been one um massive sort of, you know, when you kind of go through agricultural, you know, industrial, all the different revolutions we've gone through, like, you know, technology kind of like advancements. There is no stopping it once we're here. We don't go backwards from the printing press. We don't go backwards from agricultural revolution, um, you know, we don't go backwards from the industrial revolution. We don't go back from personal computing. And so we can, you know, we can, as we look at it going forward, the answer is to everything you're talking about, as far as um I do think we have to understand that there is a clinical nature to artificial intelligence. Um, and for us, the bet with this company, with Santa Cruz Vibes is um we're not betting on humanity per se. But what we want to do is there's a, there's the bet we made two and a half years ago was to bet on the human narrative, to bet on uh the community, and that that would carry, that'd be the heartbeat of this magazine, that would be the heartbeat of this media company. Um I'm not saying we wouldn't use and we don't use AI for um, you know, some of the back end stuff as far as organization meeting notes, things like we all do. But I think when you get something produced from Santa Cruz Vibes, um this right now is not AI generated. Yeah. We'll use AI on the back end to create notes and tags and things like that. But this is a human conversation, that's a human magazine, um, you know, and I and I feel proud of that. And that that you know, that that part of it to answer the question is um I don't feel the burden. I'm excited about artificial intelligence because I do think part of this thing, whether it be through medical science, whether it be through efficiencies, um, two twofold with AI for me. One of them is I'm excited to get to basically a faster path to some uh particular cures and things like that. I also like the idea of automating um a lot of these inefficient things that we're doing. But the other fear is this, and this has been historical and it's real. It's not gonna be for everybody. You know, that's the problem is when this thing's fully evolved, um, the the one thing that humans, the species has shown um for a long period of time right now is the the actual benefit of artificial intelligence is gonna be for a select few. It's not gonna be for everybody. We'll we'll get a free version of it. 98%, 99% of the world will get a free version of artificial intelligence. Uh, we'll get a free version of what it is, but we won't have access to a lot of the best results. And that that right now, there's no particular forecasting that human nature and capitalism and the way that we're going, the way the world's run right now, will gatekeep artificial intelligence and singularity and all of the different things, the benefits that might come from it. Um, there's no there's no value for, you know, as it stands right now to making that freely accessible to the whole planet. And so we have not fixed the core problem, if you want to call it that. I still whole different podcasts. I don't even know if it's a core problem. I think as a species, um, this human species, if you look at what we do, is we do have a tendency to land and basically kind of destroy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So uh this is gonna lead me to my last question that I had for you, unless there's something you wanted to add to it. We are a creative species. You know, that that is what really makes us unique as far as you know, most of the mammals and all that all that thing. Not not that other mammals aren't creative, but humans are unique that way. And I've been sitting with what I perceive as a certain reality that that the problem that humanity is facing is that we actually reach singularity before AI did, in that we think we're above it all. You know, we can sit with our own thoughts. We've isolated ourselves from others, thinking that what we imagine is the better imagination for the world. And so we remove ourselves from the world in that process. That there's not a whole lot of dialogue that ends up happening. I've talked ad nauseum about why that friction's here in Santa Cruz, you know, that I I thought Braden did a great job of like, dude, I can't come to dinner in the middle of the week because I can't get out of my driveway on high street. Yeah, that that's I had never considered that. Like, that's heavy that we can't go see each other. And so that there are you know frictions in the market that are real, right? You know, but that doesn't speak to the the nature of of what's actually happening. And and to that creativity, you know, with the implementation uh implementation of what we're calling tech, right? I think it's a misnomer. There's been technology for years, the wheel, fire, language, yeah, which is the primary issue with AI, is that it is a language model and we don't realize how influenced by language we are. Right. You know, but the problems that tech introduced, you know, the test scores start going down in 2010. What happened in 2010? Not social media, screens in in schools. Right. Uh you have the the first piece of AI, which is algorithms, you know, giving you the content that it thinks that you want to hear, further creating those silos that keep getting referenced, where we begin to imagine that what we think is accurate. There's a creative space that exists for us still that again might be gobbled up, right? You know, this this fun, this fun thing, you know. I I I I have stopped myself from making music. I love music.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I want to be a creator. You see, like it's a it's a guardrail I put on my heart of that's not fair because I didn't learn to create, I didn't take the time to learn, you know, how to move my fingers the right way on the frets. Even though I committed to 25 years ago learning to play the guitar, I picked it up. I bought one, picked it up, played it for a week. Yeah, it was too hard. Yeah, yeah. I don't get I don't belong in the space. Yeah, because I didn't develop the human discipline required to play Stairway to Heaven. You know, it's it's not fair, you know, to the creators who can actually do that, for me to come out with something better than them without the discipline. And so this again, this is me, this is my crazy, crazy world. In that creative space. I I I think that's the last hope, in a way, for humanity, you know, of in the face of what we're calling artificial intelligence. It isn't artificial, it's our intelligence.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Regurgitated to us based on specific requests. Very, very efficient model, yeah, you know, of having to not just have access to everything all at once.

SPEAKER_00

That's the difference.

AI’s Rise And Human Creativity

SPEAKER_02

Not think through things. Yeah. It already has the answer. Yeah. That's the whole goal of it. What I'm hearing from you, I what I believe I'm hearing from you, is is that you know, through human creation, you know, not not running these articles through Chat GPT, right? Is this all balanced out the right way? What words would you use? Like all these things that that actually are almost required by the current economy, whether you're in college or whatever, like it better be tight because people's attention spans are small. One of the things that you shared with me, uh, I think it's about a year ago, is that the kids are reading your articles. That ends up being the thing that is oftentimes most clicked. Yeah, they're looking at things, but time spent, oh, that's happening like in Substack or somewhere else about what we're creating. Right. And that deficiency between the two generations, or or from you know what we're calling an older generation, 35 and year and older, and how they're consuming, uh, compared to this generation that is coming up that wants to consume humanity, right? Even though they're being accused of not doing it. What do you feel your role is? You know, because because it it's like what is making vibes unique is what you just articulated. Yeah. You know, like it's a different approach to a capitalist philosophy, and yet no, we're actually committed to a social value above that market value. Uh that's what I feel is being articulated to me, whether you whether you're conscious of it or not, I I think it's something we have in common.

SPEAKER_00

I think so.

SPEAKER_02

That that there's a creative space that we can maintain in this thing that nobody's gonna control. You know, it's gonna have its own idea of what we are when it's done, and and hopefully it doesn't betray its creator.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, that's that's basically the in a way, yeah, or not. I think the the thing as I listen to you talk and I'm thinking about, you know, kind of where we would go with that is I think where I'm evolving to right now with this media company is, and we spoke about a little bit earlier, is um two silos. One of them is um my business, just like if I was, you know, mowing lawns or making toys or serving soft service ice cream on the boardwalk, my widgets are impressions, and that lives all by itself over there. That's the business. Um, and so that's the impression side of it. That is the cash register side of it. And there's multiple different ways to do that through, as we said, TV, podcast, um, uh magazine, and and live production. The answer to your question ends up being like, what are we generating out of it? And the the thing that I think the that where I would end with all of this is I think one of the plagues right now is I think we had it for a moment as a species. I think we had this, um, we had both things at one time. We had, you know, basically um, you know, we had this cognitive awareness of who we are. We made this left turn and were aware that we were here. And also at that same approximate time, we went from signals and sounds to um articulate language. And those two gifts came um tens and tens and tens of thousands of years before we stopped walking um, you know, 10,000, 12,000 years ago in agricultural revolution, property lines, denominations of money, religious institution, uh, built-in narratives. That's a very recent history. I think the thing about it, and I'll leave you this with vibes is, and I've thought about this before, is um if you were to be basically uh, you know, think of like a cave painting, you know, and think about the emotion and the perspective that compelled somebody to see something and to actually find the materials and the colors to uh transfer that thought and that emotional impression from what they experienced onto a wall. Um, that was them emoting. That was them basically emoting a feeling and being, as we use that word, creative. Um, but that would have come with no zero at that point expectation. They weren't trying to get famous from a tribe down the road. They weren't saying, yo, did you see Joe's work? Joe's really gone next level with the fucking mammoths and the, you know, the saber-toothed tigers. They they could, they could, they were bursting from the seams with creativity as we were becoming aware of what we were. Um, early forms of jewelry, early forms of cave painting, things like that were done for the simple purpose of emoting creativity. And mostly that's where I kind of live in the vibes world. I think I would go crazy if I thought too much about what are we trying to accomplish, where are we going with it. Literally, we we put it out and we basically like a magazine goes out. I'm super, I guess I'm overall proud of it, you know, when it goes out because I can consume it and enjoy it at that point. We're not in the production phase of it. Words come out on a podcast and we produce it. Um, but mostly, honestly, it's like a Viking funeral in a lot of ways. Every single thing we try to do, and for me, my own sanity is I try to basically uh caretake it, make it as perfect as I can, float it out there, then light it on fire. And and and really kind of honor it that way. Um, because if I had any more expectation of a singular magazine or a singular editorial or a singular article, um, I think I would go crazy and I don't think I would ever be satisfied with it. Now, here's the thing: my conflict with the business is the widget side of it. You know, that's the part where I don't get wound up in the creativity of vibes. It's the only thing that basically balances me, the partnerships, the creativity, the nonprofits. Um, it's the widget side of it. How do you, you know, basically pay your employees, pay the publisher, do all these things in a, but that's just normal startup business stuff. It has nothing to do, but I do believe in the core base of it, and I do eventually get enough um conversations and feedback that this magazine does mean something to people. They love it when they can get an article on their nonprofit or their art is in there. You know, I just saw Tessa Hope Hasty yesterday at coffee, and she had like a two-page in there. She, you know, we've talked about it a couple of times before that um it's just it's it means nothing, but it's very cool in that singular moment. Yeah, you know, and then and that's the beauty of it. That's really the way I think. I don't put that out and think, man, it's gonna really rock Tessa's world. I didn't think about Tessa until I saw our coffee stand yesterday. We hugged and we didn't talk about that art, but we have that connector moment.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

Art, Craft, And Discipline

SPEAKER_00

And then I, you know, you know, it's it's there's there's so much to be gained there. And I think in my little tiny lifespan right now, wherever AI is going, um, this doesn't necessarily translate to a 10-year-old right now and what their world might be. But in my 57-year-old world, as I'm going where I'm going, I do think there's a lot left of that juice to squeeze out of humanity. Yeah. You know, and I think that's kind of I found myself into a business where I'm surrounded by humanity as a business model. And I love that part of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well said. Well said. Yeah. So I I would be remiss to not close this way. You know, that that that uh that uh I I just want to thank you. You know, that that uh thanks for catching me. Yeah. That that I you know, I I don't look back, you know, on that moment with like, oh, thank God Brian was there, or else I wouldn't have, you know, necessarily gotten through it. That that really really isn't what happened, you know. That and and to the points that you were making, you know, my ability to translate, use information and all that, I was already in a in a really good process, you know, as as as our first coffee was part of that process. The process would have completed no matter what. That being said, the level of gratitude that I feel to have you in my life, you know, that that this friendship that has developed from here, the space that you held for me, all those things have been so meaningful, Brian. That that um you know, it's not like we have some special relationship, right? I'm just one of probably hundreds of people that you have to interact with and be who you are. But thank you for being who you are to me. It's been very important. And you know, being able to sit in a creative space again just just to be me has yeah, it's just done something for me that I don't think anything else could have.

SPEAKER_00

No, and I love it. I think the very first podcast we did together and you'll we'll wrap this up, I think we talked about this or I said it out loud is this thing very well might be more for you than it is going out. And that's the beauty of where it's a perfect tie into what we just talked about is I think the pace and the repetition that you put this together with, um, I think it's I think it's very, very good for you as a human on the planet and a little bit of a touchdown with other people. Um uh it's not gonna hurt anybody. And if anything, it's gonna it's gonna help a few people along the way. Yeah. I appreciate our friendship.

SPEAKER_02

All right, brother. Well, uh, let me see if I can cue this shit. Come on, producer. You know, it it it it it's the iPhone. I I don't get the lag time. You got that 17 Pro Max over there? The way that the I need to get it up. Well, as it stands, I gotta thank my uh my sponsors. Thank you to Santa Cruz Vise magazine for uh adding some help to this program and also for Point Slide B check. There you go. And to all of you, all the love in the world, hope you have a good rest of your day.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks, Mike.