Unpacked In Santa Cruz
"Unpacked in Santa Cruz" is a homegrown podcast hosted by Michael Howard that dives into the lives, stories, and salty moments of people who call this coastal community home—or have been shaped by it in some way. Whether it's a deep conversation with local surfers opening up about mental health, or a peek behind the curtain of someone who started a one-of-a-kind food spot right here in town, every episode brings something real.
You’ll hear from folks who found healing behind the lens, built businesses from scratch, or chased massive waves thanks to a lifetime spent around our local waters. These aren’t just interviews—they’re conversations that reflect the heart and soul of Santa Cruz. Raw, reflective, and rooted in community, Unpacked in Santa Cruz brings local voices to the surface.
Unpacked In Santa Cruz
Episode 88: Mitch Riley: A Fresh Start Is Possible When You Choose It
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Santa Cruz can change you, but not always in the glossy way people imagine. We sit with Mitch Riley, a gentle giant with a long memory, to talk about what it really takes to start over, build community, and stay upright when life is expensive, fast, and relentless. Mitch walks us through leaving Columbus, Ohio, finding a new life in Atlanta, tasting the intensity of Los Angeles, and eventually landing on the Central Coast to raise a family. Along the way we get into music, graffiti, work in natural foods retail, and why “real food” culture in Santa Cruz is bigger than a trend.
Then we go where most conversations stay vague: addiction, the opioid crisis, and the hidden mechanics of dependence. We talk about prescriptions, heroin, relapse patterns, and the part people miss when they reduce recovery to willpower. Sobriety becomes a story about clarity and agency, about getting your mind back, and about learning to sit with what you feel without needing to shut it off. If you care about mental health, recovery, and the real cost of a profoundly efficient society, this one goes deep without turning preachy.
We also unpack why Brazilian jiu jitsu can become a lifeline: a place where men practice calm, mercy, and trust inside a hard struggle. It’s intimacy with boundaries, community without performance, and a training ground for showing up better at home. We close with what’s next for Mitch and his family, including the launch of Old Soul Tattoos on Swift Street and a new gallery space upstairs. If this hits home, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review. What’s one choice you’ve made that brought your life back to you?
Mat Banter And Introductions
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, this show is not G-made anymore. No, I cut some more than everybody else, bitch.
SPEAKER_03We got Chaddy United. And we got Chad B in here.
SPEAKER_02Of the Unpactus Antures podcast on your host Mikey Martin. Mitch I PMB. Riley. Mitch Riley. I got Mitch Riley on the mic on the microphone right now. In full disclosure, um, he lays on top of me at times.
SPEAKER_05And vice versa.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Well, you know, it's kind of hard to get around you these days because you've learned things that make it harder to uh to get to the spot to be on top with you.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Um and and uh happy for those.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I know you're happy for those things, but I I'm not at all. You know, okay, so so you guys are already in this, and and I, you know, you all know what my first question is going to be, so we'll we'll we'll we'll get to it in a second. But uh yeah, Mitch, uh when he showed up and I saw that he was kind and had some control. You know, you have to understand, what are you, six three, six four? Six four, yeah. Yeah, and he's in the I think I was 260 back then. Yes, and I I I had I had a group of of gentlemen that showed up in my weight class where I could actually work on things, and fortunately they were white belts. Yeah. So I got to work on some things in my weight class briefly. Yeah. And then you all realized how much taller you you were than me. Yeah, and the height. Then all all the things, all the things I had went away. So so Mitch is uh another gentle giant that that I know, and it's it's uh it's been good to get to know him on the mat.
Moving West And Landing In Santa Cruz
SPEAKER_02But Mitch, when we uh, you know, you moved to Santa Cruz with an idea in your head about what this place is gonna be like. What is it like for you right now?
SPEAKER_06That's interesting.
SPEAKER_05Um, you know, I didn't move out here with the idea of living in Santa Cruz. We, our family didn't move out here. We were um we were living in Atlanta, Georgia, which is where I met my wife. And um it was one of those situations where um, you know, we got this um well, it's a long story how we we ended up wanting to to move out here. My sister was living in San Francisco and they had their first um child, she her first child, and we came out here to see my nephew. And um, so my soon-to-be wife, we came out. It was like my dad's birthday. My nephew had just been born, and um uh for his birthday, we all went out to dinner, and we had just recently discovered that we were having a kid. And uh, so for his birthday, you know, we're all out there newborn. My sister's newborn in uh San Francisco. And I had been up here once or twice. I've lived down in Los Angeles for a while, and uh we played the heartbeat for my dad for his birthday, you know. And uh my sister just like looks at me and she's like, shut the fuck up. Because me and Diane had like just met, you know? And uh it was a great trip. We ended up heading up the coast all the way up to Crater Lake, just traveling all the way around and just fell in love with Northern California. Um that was my both of our first time like north of San Francisco.
SPEAKER_06And we're like, oh man, we gotta move out here, we gotta move out here.
SPEAKER_05And um fast forward like three years, we're you know, our son's three years old. We're trying to plot to figure it out. And the guy that I had worked with previously was like, hey, I need you to come out here. And um so he kind of like hired me on, and then the company was like, nah, we don't, you know, it was like kind of sketchy. And uh we're like, fuck it, we're going out anyway. So we bought this little RV, started fixing it up, and uh, we were just gonna travel around and try and find a place to land. And then um the guy hit me back. He's like, All right, they're gonna let you come out. And so we came out and same, we just did the same thing because it was kind of like a traveling job around the Bay Area. So we just like started staying in different spots. The first place that we landed was up in Felton at like one of the little RV parks up there, yeah. And just like, you know, would just bounce around and we just kind of kept, you know, just kind of lurking around uh Santa Cruz, you know. And it was um, you know, it's just such a beautiful spot. And coming from where I grew up in uh it's just like a like a different universe, you know. So yeah, that's that's how we ended up here. And so I didn't really have an idea. Actually, after we lived here, one of my buddies, he was like, Man, you live in Santa Cruz?
SPEAKER_06Don't you remember we had a band called Santa Cruz?
SPEAKER_05Like back in the you know, 80s and 90s or something, you know, and I was like, Oh man, I totally forgot about that because it's like Santa Cruz skateboards, yeah. It just like sounded cool, you know.
SPEAKER_02Well, let's get to that. I I I I I want people to know a little bit more about you. Like, you know, married, have kids. Yep. Um, you know, uh what do you do for work?
Working In Natural Foods And Produce
SPEAKER_05Um I currently and for a career have uh worked in retail grocery natural foods, um, mostly in produce. But as of right now, uh in the last nine years I've been with New Leaf Community Markets. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and New Leaf's a really unique spot. Yeah. You know, like like they're really one of the first uh in the country, I think, that that really grabbed a hold of organic uh actually selling food. I I guess the best way to put it. Real food. Real real food. You know, you know, and and I I don't know how familiar you are with the genesis of the story and and and all that as pertains to New Leaf. But but like as someone who grew up in you know what seemed to be the organic capital of America, you know, where we had all these little cottage organic stores.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there's a lot of Santa Cruz in in this area did a lot to pioneer that movement.
SPEAKER_02Um so I can, you know, likewise the retail, like yeah, you know, makes sense that because it all feels so normal you know to us, but it's all it was not normal when it started. You go to the what was the food bin on Mission Street was was really the first one. You know, then staff of life showed up and then new leaf behind it. Yeah, you know, slowly you're just watching this thing actually grow and grow into you know what was real grocery store. Yeah, I'm not sure how the food bin survived.
SPEAKER_05I think it probably changed owners' hands because I know that I worked the guy that owns it now, I worked with him. I'm talking about the in the beginning. Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't know.
SPEAKER_03You know, could have could have been, you know, sell organics. I don't know. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Who knows? Anyways, so uh so you've chose this place as a home. You know, what what you know what is it about it that that really
Redwoods Weather And The Midwest Contrast
SPEAKER_02captured you?
SPEAKER_05Um the landscape, the weather. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's yeah, it's just like I said, it's just so far from where where I grew up and and what it was like there. And just like, I mean, you know, seeing like things that I'm sure that you guys take for granted, like what a tree looks like, you know, like a redwood. You know, it's like, oh yeah, it's a redwood, you know? Yeah. It's like, but I had one of my buddies come out and I was like, hey man, we're gonna go see these redwoods, you know, like I want to show them to you, you know, because we used to do a lot of camping and stuff up in Canada and all all over the place. And you know, we went up to like Henry Cowell or something because he was just like quick in and out, you know, and we go up there and he's like, Man, why do you want to show me these trees? You know, like what is this, you know? And we get up there and you know, and I'm sure I had the same reaction when I first saw him, but like his jaw was just on the trail. You know, because it's just like it's just it's amazing. Yeah, you see, transcendent a thousand years, it's to think the world used to be covered. Yeah, you know, and California used to be covered, and and that's what it's supposed to look like, you know, before capitalism came along and just destroyed and wiped it out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, we we you know whenever we have uh friends, family that come out, you know, we we have our general little tours, you know, we go nicely marks or Cal and you know, go to San Francisco and you know, do the ferry rides, do the quick, you know, Gear Delhi Square stuff. You know we have our little tours, but but yeah, we do forget, you know, just how magic the spot is that that uh you're kind of five miles from anything you could imagine other than snow.
SPEAKER_05It's crazy. It's crazy. I mean, I used to have to like buckle down. Um I grew up in Columbus, Ohio, and like when it would start to get cold, it's like I used to have to buckle down. Like, man, I like the depression's coming. Yeah. It's gonna be, you know, it's gonna be a long winter because it's like six months that you're like locked up in a house. And then in the summer it's too humid to do anything. So you have like these like you know, tiny, tiny windows. Uh tiny windows on both sides where it's like you're you're not running from AC to your car's AC, you know, or you know, heat to heat. I mean, you know, you wake up, it's like negative five degrees outside, and you're scraping. I used to scrape the you know this the ice off the window so you could drive your car. And yeah, yeah, it's just cold. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So growing up in the Midwest, um you know, we do have a strong Midwest audience. Hello, I see you. Oh we'd 10. You know, what's the contrast like? You know, it that there, you know, I married a Midwest girl. You know, there are things about her that add so much to my life that really are often only found in the Midwest, you know, the strong culture family or or or whatever country they were from. You know, it it seems like there's there's a lot more culture to experience oftentimes in those spaces because it's so much uh it's still kind of divided, right? You have the Polish neighborhoods, you have the Italian neighborhoods, they're still kind of there the the way that they were in the old days, you know, and I and I I know things have changed
Atlanta Culture Shock And Finding Beauty
SPEAKER_02there also. Yeah. But um what was that contrast like coming from the Midwest to the West Coast?
SPEAKER_05Um I would say that um for me, um the I don't know, the larger contrast kind of was going from you know, Columbus, Ohio down to Atlanta, Georgia. Because that's I mean, going from the north to the south. Yeah, that's a whole nother deal there. Yeah. Um, you know, because you know, automatically moving to Atlanta and and being a white guy, you're you're pegged as being racist. You know, at least that's how it felt. And where I grew up, it was like, no, that's the house on the corner where the Underground Railroad was. You know, and and moving down there, it was like they were still talking like the Civil War just ended.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um, and then there's just all sorts of the culturally the beauty in this alpha is just like it took me a while to to recognize it. And it wasn't until I left and then moved back that um I really I remember I was traveling from LAX back to Hartsfield, and I was sitting in LAX uh waiting for the the plane for Atlanta. And um, I just the the uh southern accent never resonated with me.
SPEAKER_06And I was sitting there and there was this lady behind me, and she was just like, Oh, you know, we're just gonna do this and get you know, and I was just like, it just sounded like an angel for the first time ever.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you know, so it's just like um and then LA has its whole different uh culture.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, LA is a quagmire.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So to me, that's one of the things about I never thought I'd leave home. Um, you know, it wasn't, you know, I got wrapped up in a bunch of really bad stuff um in my youth, and I had to, you know, yeah be taken out, plucked out, you know, that saves my life. Right. Um and uh Yeah, so I guess I'm you know, and us as a uh uh uh now we have three kids and um you know we've we've been grinding, you know, so it's like it's hard to to put your head up and and and catch a breath of air and be like, oh yeah, that you know, this is what's going on around here, you know. Yeah. And and just now we're just recently like catching our stride because it's very difficult to live here, you know, like with monetary restraints and all this stuff. So um, you know, it it's it's a cool place, you know, and I'm I'm still getting to know it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So um I mean, I think we've been here. This sounds crazy, but it's like, you know, we've been here like 13 years or something, like 12, 13 years. And it's like I'm just, you know, only been doing jujitsu, you know, a few years, and it's like just starting to meet people and and kind of open up and unpack, you know, straight up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well well why don't you for my audience kind of because I've I've more than expressed about this, there's just a wall you hit when you show up. There's this thing that is Santa Cruz, and it's very hard to penetrate. You know, you know, first you see it, oh, it's beautiful, it looks great, let's go there, and then like then there's the wall of of a local flavor that's like it's not the easiest place to make friends. You know, it the the you know, the edge of how much money it does take just to function here, you know, is that of you know, like New York City, you know, it it it's it's weird, you know, because it's not a city that way, you know, but but it does require a lot from the person to fit in. And yet it feels so welcoming. You know, how you know, to your point, you know, you're 13 years in, it's like, boy, I'm kind of finally spreading my wings here. I I'm finally seeing, you know, the finer details of this town that that seems so obvious, but I had you didn't experience it, and you're just starting to. Yeah, you know, what what's that been like for you over the course, you know, last decade or more of really finding your people here?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I don't know. I mean, uh, you know, my people's my family. Yeah. You know, so it's like as long as I got them, I'm good. Yeah. I uh, you know, um I've dealt with some some pretty difficult um places, situations, and people over the years that um I I I I guess I feel blessed hearing you talk like that, like that I haven't really, you know, felt that as much. Like maybe like I can see like where it would be there, but it's like I'm not like whatever you guys say.
SPEAKER_03Like I see worse shit than this.
SPEAKER_05Like have your thing. Yeah. And I mean it there, like, you know, financially, like there, we've definitely like struggled and like tried to like make it, we've had to do very, very difficult things to make it work. Um there was a guy that um uh you know, uh that my wife, she's a tattoo artist, that um, you know, uh we kind of had a connection through Atlanta. Uh the way that me and her met was kind of through this um this group of people. And he had taught uh a guy how to tattoo who had subsequently moved out here. And so when we got out here, they were like, oh, you know, one of our friends is out there, you know, dah du. And so we, you know, we kind of met him. She started uh apprenticing under him and uh learning to tattoo out here. And um and uh so you know, that was kind of an in. And then we met some people through that, some uh a good uh family that we, you know, we kind of connected with and they were great. And uh one of the guys, the the father of that family was just like, you know, I forget how he said it, but Santa Cruz, you know, he said something, the longer you hear, the more it gives. You know, something like that, you know, and I was like, oh, that's interesting, you know. So or it wasn't the longer you hear, it's just like yeah, yeah. It was just like one of those things, and it was just like, you know, we kind of like, you know, suffered through the the difficult times and and came out on, you know, we feel like we're coming out on the other side, just in in a better place.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, you well I found I don't necessarily want to over-exaggerate it because of its variety of people, um it's not hard to find problems that are cultural problems elsewhere that reside with within whatever little small people groups you end up in. And you know, just tattooing alone, you know, it it's you know, I can look back on a time frame, right? Because you know, I used to have tattoos, I got them all removed, but oh really?
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, that's wild.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03We'll have to get you some new ones. Yeah, we'll talk about I I I want elbow down to hand. My kids are like, nobody has that in my yeah, that's the point. Every other tattoo is hand, it's just where it is.
SPEAKER_02But uh but you know, at least here, you know, uh especially when tattooing got legalized, you know, there there's there was a certain you know, biker group that that ran the whole show. You know, it's you you were not opening a parlor, you know, with without being a part of uh of that system. Being cosigned. Yes. And it it's not so much that that maybe any of that's changed as much as uh you know, there's more variety, right? You know, there there's more more people, more of this, but like if you were in that zone there was a thing that was just happening there. And and you know, it it it's clearly that way with surf, you know, if it if you click with the wrong people, you're in a you're in a bad spot. You know, like the you you just you just don't know who's connected here here, where, how, what they're connected to. You know, we have deep resonant connections to to to things that that maybe live on the darker side, and then then there's this total brightness, you know, in complete contrast to to what might be the core of of any one of these things. And you know, I guess the point I'm making in there, you know, is that for you, you know, we we don't have to get into the history of of needing to leave. But like, you know, being able to come somewhere like this and make a fresh start is is what's on offer though, too. You know, that that those of us who are from here who really had to learn to avoid, you know, some some easy, easy pits to fall in, yeah. You know, because they're so available. Yeah, like there's no insulation in this town from like, oh yeah, one of your buddies, and then they're deep in it. You know, you're just you're just one party away from your life changing dramatically. Yeah, and and it could be really, really good or not so great. You know, mostly growing up, I got a I got a real uh you know a real bird's eye view of like, wow, well that that that's a lot, man. You don't know if I want to be part of that. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_05I mean, the darkness is everywhere, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean the darkness is inside me, you know. So it's just it's in all of us if we choose it.
SPEAKER_02So yeah.
LA Routines Surfing And Street Reality
SPEAKER_02So Ohio, Atlanta. It's exactly LA. LA back to Atlanta. What was LA like? Uh I want to hear a little bit of this. LA was wild.
SPEAKER_05Um yeah, I uh I mean it was just, you know, I I uh yeah, I moved out there, was working, and first got out there a guy that um kind of I guess I I don't know, it's it's hard to like fill in like this spot. Yeah, yeah. But um like I uh You're in LA, what neighborhood? Um at first Hawthorne. Okay. Oh, yeah. Um 132nd. Um not Englewood, but Hawthorne. Yeah. Right off Englewood. Uh you know, it was it was cool. I mean, uh like I moved out there, I would go to work every morning, work early, I would get off, we would go to El Porto and surf. And yeah, that was I'd go home, eat, rinse and repeat, you know. Like that was just what I did. And then um we lost the house there. And uh one of my buddies that I did music with back in Ohio, I uh moved him out we moved him out and um we just started doing just a bunch of stuff like recording videos recording music um we ended up getting um like this great little loft down in uh south central um it was set up it was it was beautiful had a recording studio and just like i mean it was just like super grimy and just like like it was great you get on the rooftop it was just like all downtown LA right there with the mountains behind it and just like just recorded some great music and that was you know that was a great time yeah I you know I I spent a year living there I I you know I was there for a pretty specific purpose I was in in garment and fashion but we were right there by the uh well the fashion district where they stole all the textiles and stuff I'm very familiar with with uh having to get to downtown and racing home you know after dark don't stop at any uh stopwise the cops just wave to you as you trying to get to the city running around and I I can't I can't tell you how many times I left the office there in the middle of winter and just like the cops were like just run just keep keep going there's no no reason to wait I have I did get stopped like that when I was looking for homes I was over uh I God what was it like Grape Street or something like that. They were just like they pull me over like what are you doing here?
SPEAKER_02Yeah exactly and I was like yeah looking at looking at homes you know like thinking I was gonna it was right before the crash you know so you could get like you know and they're like get the fuck out of here you can't live here burn your place down yeah no it it's those are one of those things that you know the personalities of Elohan there's you know hundreds of them of of every you know district every every neighborhood you know it's so hard to explain I was there so specifically right like I I was with a particular group I knew what I was doing you know my I I lived in Manhattan Beach you know I knew my routine to get downtown you know it's an hour in and that's a height oh it was horrible yeah it's five miles away but it takes forever to yeah to get there uh and and I had that routine right you know it was like boom to the office you know just surf right out in front of my my place you know it was just a couple blocks up from the strand so I'd just walk down and go go surf Manhattan Beach. The shittiest shittiest ways in the world but you just imagine in the water yeah yeah I was in a good neighborhood and you know my buddies lived in a ghost town in Venice. Yeah Venice is Venice Manhattan Beach it's just weird in there you know yeah and and it was kind of turning into a little artsy little bit but it was all you know it was what year was this? Oh this is uh I was I was living there in ninety you know but but from eighty eight to about you know ninety four I spent a tremendous amount of time in Southern California you know one year specifically in 1990 you know doing this thing and and and you know Venice was just emerging you know to what the Venice is now you know we I was part of what was beginning to be a bubble you know where we're my friends live in a Crip neighborhood right Crips ran the whole thing just blew everything everywhere yeah and like first time I went and yeah went to their house I'm like am I gonna die like I'm not gonna get shot every face it's a cute little cottage they're like oh no no you're safe here yeah as long as you're not hitting in their business you're fine and you know they would throw parties and and and you know the guys who ran that that block would run the keg like you don't have to worry about it we just we'll we'll we'll run security audio parties yeah you know so it just was such a a weird thing and you know I was in and around a wealthier group of people you know that were involved in Hollywood and fashion things like that. So you know I'd be going from that to you know being on Melrose you know during its heyday you know back when things were clean and yeah that was crazy it was it was cool he you know yeah Mickey Rourke was cool you know yeah this little British biker Mickey Rourke won't always be cool weirdo that he was but but it was you know I I just was was you know and I I wasn't like deep in it but you know I was just in and around some very interesting moments in time and society. Oh for sure you know in places that were like yeah I I was there I was on the peripheral but like didn't really want to be in it in it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah you know and when my opportunity came for me to be in it I'm like nah you know when I got bad I'm like nope as I'm done almost every time in my life is like oh you're you're
Music Roots From Metal To Hip Hop
SPEAKER_05gonna be bad I'm like I'm out yeah you know so so that's how I feel a little bit about um you know my time in Atlanta like like that was a very special time I think for the city I mean Atlanta is just an amazing place and always is um but you know the years that I was there I feel very blessed to have been a part of that and some of the work that I put into the city on the art side um yeah so tell me a little bit about the music that you play like like what what I mean yeah I um when I was young I played um I think started just playing metal you know like heavy metal thrash kind of stuff uh death metal back in the the early 90s um I I like all music my grandfather was a musician so I've experimented with all sorts of different stuff um you know we had later in the 90s had like more of like a a rock and roll kind of experimental type thing um and then um when I moved on to Atlanta um I got more into um just producing like learning recording and and just more kind of like you know trip hopy hip-hop kind of stuff. I mean it it started early like my love for hip hop was early on in the the you know from NWA and two live crew you know all the way through um poor righteous teachers all that kind of stuff but um in the late 90s um as you know you know well Columbus is you know really close to Detroit and battle rap was just like a huge thing um so in the late 90s early 2000s right before I left uh Columbus like that was that was it like that was a golden time for me too like I always look at you know life there's these seasons you know the ups and the downs and uh that was like yeah Columbus hip hop in the late 90s early 2000s was definitely like a great thing you had the rap uh geez I can't even space it on the name but down in Cincinnati uh there's a big hip hop festival that would happen.
SPEAKER_02Yeah well you know it's funny because you know the West Coast East Coast rap I wasn't listening to any of it you know at the time that it was really happening you know it's not that I didn't origin the origins yeah I'm a public enemy guy you know it's yeah PE's awesome you know that that's kind of that's kind of where I sat and then then once it you know Tupac and Biggie and all that all that creeps kind of showed up snoop you know it's where I distanced myself from it you know at the time not not it it just wasn't wasn't uh uh verbally what I wanted to ingest yeah you know in into my brain at the time I had other things to sort out yeah uh but you know being removed from hip hop at the time you know most of my friends were listening to hip-hop nobody on the West Coast was paying attention to to the South and the whole scene yeah you know or or you know whatever was going on in the Midwest of course MM shows up and you know that then all of a sudden you know the world's opened up a little bit and but you know all the dirty South hip hop that then emerged shortly thereafter is when it captured my attention again.
SPEAKER_05I'm like when did that start you know but but it had been there you know yeah that's what had been going on so I'm presuming that that's in and around the time that you were you were down there where you you're you're you know well it had emerged way before I mean Atlanta has been putting in work since day one um but I mean obviously like groups like you know outcast and goody mob were like you know pretty influential to me. Um and then yeah like around the turn of the century like is when it really like yeah I mean I remember hearing outcast really early on something playlistic and that was like I mean we were talking one of my buddies came up from uh the same guy that I showed the trees to um he came up his family had uh our stepfathers had worked together and we had done a bunch of stuff but um he had and we talked about that um before but um he brought up we um one night we were out um we'd eaten a bunch of acid and we were like driving around and um he put on uh some of the playlist to Cadillac oh wow and I was like uh I was like I was just like I had never heard anything like it and it was just like amazing to me you know so um that yeah that's where the the love began for that and then just finding you know finding that later in life because I I again like how I came to Santa Cruz is kind of how I ended up in Atlanta.
Addiction Up Close And The Opioid Economy
SPEAKER_05Like it wasn't an intentional thing. It was like hey you you know I got wrapped up in some gnarly shit in Columbus you know and I was like all shown out and heroin and shit. So it was like you know luckily I had a loving family that was like hey we need you need to get some help you need to get like on the right path you know and and I ended up down in Atlanta and it was just like you know that was like I mean something of a place that I loved that I didn't know that I loved yet you know and so is that something you want to talk about at all or is that something we want to leave in the past?
SPEAKER_02What's that?
SPEAKER_04No I'm I'm open. If I if I don't want to talk about it I won't break it well oftentimes I find myself lightly referencing moments meet you know with people you know where where you know I'll know a little bit more of the backstory or it doesn't take a rocket scientist to to to see what you know what was as opposed to what is right now.
SPEAKER_02But you know how how how cocaine then heroin then meth you know really influenced my life yeah uh was I lost a lot of friends. Oh yeah you know like like it it's you know I'll never forget being in high school and seeing my first friends start to use them a little bit then they're dealing with you know and you're just in this world all of a sudden you know this this is what's really weird about being from a small town like this that has real big city problems yeah that that just lie right in the underbelly and I'll you know I'll never forget you know I was I was a freshman it's the first week of school and there's only one kid being nice to me and it's a junior who's who's you know having to take freshman English over again. But but he was a big guy and he just protected me he re he recognized you know I was 4'11 when I started high school you know the cool guy surf crew that I'm a part of you know they're all seniors you know it just it's all clicky and weird at Snow Kelly and I'll never forget coming up to him you know down in Capitola and he's he's like Howard you gotta go I'm like what's going on bro like he's like no you gotta go you know and you know look down and see he's got a gun you know and it's he he's he's like just step away and I'll talk to you later. Yeah you know and hopefully yeah it's like you know I'm a little old Capitola there's cops all around and you know that's a nice beach community nuts and bolts got the 60 year old dude in the middle of a in the middle of a big you know pot deal and what it wasn't wasn't you know but it I just hadn't seen it. Yeah you know it it had been all around me my whole life you know here I am 14 years old like holy crap like my friend carry was like I'm like what's going on here the veil was lifted. Yeah and and then you start you know you start seeing it around you know clearly in surf culture you know that the the things happen fast yeah and and uh you know the reason why why why I'm kind of bringing this up i is is you know this journey that we've been all been on you know of of um of seeing things you know being involved in things you know things that can bring a lot of shame in your life uh and then how to reconcile those things um it it's more prevalent than people think in in in a you know in a way the media does a disservice about these things you know because it it it only talks about them from a legal standpoint you know not not the personal cause the emotional yeah like like what's really happening like what when it happens and you know those times where we're we're you know in in uh you know our teenage years our early adult years where we're just looking for the right influence a place where we belong you know Columbus Ohio does not stick out as a spot where a kid's gonna get strung out that's not you know the California perspective of things he you know it's like oh no the strong Midwestern values and you know all this kind of stuff and and you know my wife's always careful she's like honey this happens everywhere you look like you know she's from South Bend Indiana South Bend's pretty you know it's had a lot going on for a long time and you know for different reasons than it does here. But but she's always careful with me like like Santa Cruz is not unique that way. Yeah you know but there is a uniqueness to this place and that you know it's everything feels closer yeah here. You know like it's it's not it's not as far away as you think it is you know you're you're you know even now you know I I I I sit with people that are you know my age or in the elder group you know we're we're things have not changed. You know there's there's still it's still a surprise to me people that are still in business you see because they look at their business and go like yeah yeah I know what you're up to.
SPEAKER_05You know and and you know as a c as economies have grown so so those economies and well there's the um a huge percentage of the money that's invested in our economy comes from it whether it's on the the legal or yeah the illegal side of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah and and I don't want to make too much of this you know because because it really isn't a subject that that uh that needs to be talked about too much but but I don't know that people really understand how much you know that economy permeates particular regions not just happen to be in one you know it's everywhere it's very copacetic to to how it works here. You know it's like people just really don't know and it's like well you know there's a lot of Mexican food restaurants that aren't that busy you know there's a a lot of you know stuff that are fronts here that that people just don't even think about it because it's Santa Cruz and it's everywhere.
SPEAKER_05It's everything it's it's the whole economy. Yeah yeah it's you know I think that um yes I have the data points mentioned on that no I don't mean to be I mean i i it's I I totally agree yeah yeah it's a trillion and trillion dollar economy in in the US yeah and I I heard some crazy statistics statistic one time that was I can't even remember it but it was just like you know you know opi uh like opiates are just like illegal opiates are responsible for like a very large portion of like the US economy you know and it's just like I don't I mean I don't know I don't yeah it's bad it's it's everywhere in the 90s coming up um in the Midwest um there was a uh what the government proclaimed as an epidemic with the opiate uh crisis um and that was when like the pharmaceutical industry was really getting going with all the you know icycons and all that stuff so that's where it hit really hard yeah um I can't even count the amount of people that um I've lost to it you know um just wonderful people bright people I feel like the most loving and wonderful people graduate gravitate towards um um drug use and and specifically opiate use just because um we live in such a um a a uh gnarly society uh there's a saying that like it's uh it's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society um and there's people that yearn for connection and togetherness and oneness um I think that that's how we're built you know and the strongest ones of us that feel that like just gravitate towards that direction.
SPEAKER_02Um sorry I thought you were about to no no no I was I was just kind of burping away from the microphone but thank you for taking social kiss.
SPEAKER_05Yeah um no um yeah so yeah I mean it it's it's rough um there's a lot of drinking that goes on back there and lots of cocaine lots of I mean just lots of everything but it's coded like most of the the the you know the medical industry like you know gives it to people so they don't you know they're not using illegal drugs. I remember when I went to rehab and it was like this really nice cushy rehab and like there's a bunch of doc it was built for doctors you know and so there's all these doctors there and they're like I don't understand why I'm you know in this room with this guy who's a heroin junkie you know and it's like bro you've been taking a thousand milligrams of dude you're you're gonna you are going into the ER and stealing the sharps like like empty about like banging the stuff it's like you are not better than me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah but it's the egos that go with it you know it's all the same thing whether you're you know prescription or not you know yeah and and and again for my audience I I want to give you all a little bit of an education of uh of kind of lives in the middle of this you know whatever the pharmaceutical companies were doing what what you know what gets kind of lumped into one package you know of like Vicodin or Percocet. Um oxy OxyContin was not the same thing. You know what what what what the companies were doing were were were putting you know what would be like let's say you get your wisdom teeth pulled you know you're gonna you're gonna take two two Vicodin. You know they they were loading in a a timed load uh into one pill that that was slowly distributed over time and and and what Mitch is referring to is that when when the pharmaceutical companies were putting together pills that that had you know anywhere between five and and 100 milligram distribution in that pill it was it was over the course of time so there were you know sometimes up to two three hundred milligrams into one pill and it really exaggerated what was already an existing problem that was happening with with the street drug heroin you know and it made for a cleaner drug we we had a a really rough time here with the kids. That's why I'm so familiar with it. There are a ton of kids you know my my oldest son's age and a little bit older that really got strung out you know and and to give you an idea what that means because again there's there's so much misinformation about you know what we're calling the the the uh the opioid crisis you know that there are kids that were shooting a thousand milligrams of heroin a day so what that would mean is that it you know this if you got a package of pills for 30 days they would be taking a whole whole package of pill you know the the whole 30 day load you know in a single day and you could imagine you know if if you are strung out that way where where that milligram load is is so high you know it's it's it's it's it's the near death load when once you're at your peak and you know it it we're just not talking about it the right way you know because we're we're falsely equating all things and you know the the nature of the stuff is as such that it just makes you feel better. And if you don't feel good you know the hook is that you know that that it that it takes all those sad feelings and puts them somewhere. Yeah and it's not as simple as people going out and just oh they're just using drugs. That's not what's happening.
SPEAKER_05It eventually leads to that but but like it it's and it starts in all sorts of crazy yeah you know ways like um you know I kind of trace all my stuff back to like when I was you know I was as you can imagine I was a you know what they consider a hyperactive kid or whatever and it's like I mean they were giving me Ritalin which is a narcotic yeah at in like kindergarten and first grade. You know and it's like that's that's grimy. You know, like I mean, later in my life we crush those up and snort them to get high. Yeah. And it's like you're giving a little kid this narcotic. Yeah. Because you're not comfortable dealing with them being a child. Yeah. You know, as the school or the system, the institution, um, whether it's the medical institution or the um, you know, the schools, it's like they just want to make things easy. You know, they don't want to deal with like taking care of a community. Like we're we're such a, you know, we've just given up on humanity almost as a culture. And it's it's bullshit. And um I I trace it back to kind of that, and then just like, you know, the the the neglect of society and like what I kind of alluded to earlier of like people yearning for that connection and and being part of something. You know, you said it too, where it's like you know, when you're in high school, you're looking for something to grab onto. Where do I fit? You know, where's my
Systems Efficiency And The Cost To Humanity
SPEAKER_05what's my sexuality? What's this? You know, what's that? It's like, no, it's like, you know, we need to do a better job.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And and as parents, that's where it starts, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And and look, no child left behind is is what got to show up for my boys. You know, and and uh, you know, when it did, I had a lot of educators as clients. It was not cool, you know, how it was showing up, you know, where there are answers for everything. Yeah. You know, this is the formula. I'm not surprised by what's happening right now in any way. Yeah. You know, it's uh, you know, the certainly the mental health crisis for young men, you know, has more than emerged. And uh, you know, all you have to do is look at suicide rates people, and it's four to one boys, yeah. Um to get to get just a little glimpse on how bad it is. Uh but you know, I I I you know, here I am referring to social capitalism again. You know, uh as as a uh as someone who looks through the world through a capitalist lens, you know, uh understanding that that is the system. You know, the market's need for efficiency and scale, you know, starting applying to everything. It's the language we speak, whether you think you speak English or not. We speak capitalism. We're from America. We're not talking to each other most of the time, you know, in the conversation, we're talking about money. Transactional. We're we're we're talking about money. You know, you know, we're we're not talking to each other yet. You know, this is why why I love doing these things, because it's like, you know, you get through that first friction point of like it's hard here. And then like, let's talk to each other after after we're done with that that part. You know, but we're talking about money, we're not talking about life, you know, and what it means to live. And so, yeah, I I mean during these times, you know, where we were trying to do our best to make it the easiest to get through the system, this is what got lost. And, you know, I you know, I watched it with no child left behind. You know, when when one of my sons was, you know, again in first grade, they're they're wanting to do this, yeah. Oh, you well, he doesn't sit still enough and all this stuff. You know, we have this little drug, and it's like, oh, do you know? Yeah, do you? And you know, or because I have a teacher in front of me that that gets paid.
SPEAKER_05And that's the topic, and a doctor that's got this big ego and and a diploma from where, you know, it's like it's like you have, you know, be and I'm just trying to work to pay the bills. Yeah. You know, so like what are you gonna do? It's like so you can't blame, you know, the parents or like whatever. You know, like I don't I don't mean to like throw shade in in that direction.
SPEAKER_02No, it's just a system that's serving itself, yeah. You know, and I don't blame the teachers. I don't, you know, I don't necessarily even blame the doctors. It's just that no, they're influenced by this machine by the thing, you know, you know, yeah. And uh you know, being so close in proximity and understanding tech as as as best as I can, and you know, I have a lot of influential friends, you know. We we we were all bearing witness to what efficiency was bringing. Yeah, you know, and and uh this is not a question I made up myself, but you know, if you can tell me something that's changed since the 70s, you know, other than screens, you know, not a whole lot has changed, it's just gotten faster. Yeah, you know, and and this this is really what Tet brought is you know, it it's been good in many ways, but this is the B side of the record, you know, that that by making systems more efficient, by putting them at scale and making them bigger, we've lost a lot in between those things. And we've lost a lot of humanity between those things. And and we've again we think we're talking to each other, but not really together. And and really it is that togetherness that that that I think is what's gonna pull us out.
SPEAKER_05And so Well, there's so many divides set up in society, like it's just built, they've just manufactured it in such a way where it's like everybody just hates everybody now. You know, and it's so sad because it's like that's just not how it's supposed to be. I mean, back when we were living in more of a sustainable way, we had to depend on each other. And they don't want you to depend on each other, they want you to depend on them, you know. Um, which it's a recipe for disaster.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean the system will constantly lean its sore self on money, and what I mean by that is there'll just return on investment. Yeah, you know, and and you know, it's not wrong. It just misses the human part of it. You know, it's uh I mean we're all here because we can make money, and that's good, but we just don't look at it it's full effect. You know, there there is a full effect that that to everything, right?
SPEAKER_05To like all these things that you know, one of the first lessons they teach you is uh, you know, energy can't be created or destroyed, it just changes form. So it's like for every one of these actions, there's an equal and opposite reaction. You know, like people are taking this drug and they're like, oh, this drug's great, you know, it you know helps me lose weight or whatever, you know. It's like, yeah, but like yeah, other stuff happens. Yeah, and it's like and they don't tell you about that. They're like, oh, this might happen. It's like, no, you can basically guarantee that that shit's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Or at least approach it like that.
SPEAKER_02Before we move forward in this, are are you okay with talking about your sobriety journey?
Sobriety Tools And Getting Your Mind Back
SPEAKER_02Just lightly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just kind of sitting with that a little bit. Yeah. You know, because that that really sits in the premise, I think, of what we'll we'll end up being, you know, where where it's all uh uh yeah, where the convers conversation that's sitting under this thing, you know, will become clear. You know, for for you, what has sobriety meant? You know, and and I and I want to be careful that that neither Mitch nor I represent AA in any way or NA or any of those organizations. And and I I certainly am not a part of the program. I I don't want to insinuate that I am. I don't speak for them. Um, but it was a part of my journey, you know, when when I needed to sober up from alcohol.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, they gave me really great tools to to they gave me tool for my tools. You know, I hadn't the tools. I just hadn't arranged the tool set.
SPEAKER_03That's like straight up. Oh, here's the tool set. Yeah, here's the key to the tool set. For me it was the fourth step. Like I do all the other stuff, but I don't do that step. Yeah, I must give that one. No, it wasn't that, you know.
SPEAKER_02No, no, it's just it's just journaling and the you know, it's like just rehearsing pain does not necessarily help help me. I I need I need to locate the story the right way. So, you know, that that's the great benefit that I got from LA or from LA. Didn't get any beneficial from LA.
SPEAKER_03Fuck that place. Anyways. You gotta find the love in it all. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh but uh uh you know, for me, you know, it was that four step and and really doing the inventory work the way that that they did it, and I I I got to I got to view my story differently. I got to view it as a victim, which is which is very rare. You know, that's not a not a typical way of like approaching that thing. You know, I I you know I certainly damaged my my my family and and my closer friends in some way, but but I didn't have this long list of of shit that I had done that you know, I I was minding my game pretty well. Yeah. What what what was a problem was my game, you know, and and for me, you know, alcohol was really the only thing that kept me alive for six years, you know, due to my depression and suicidal ideation. So you know, it it it was a very challenging moment when I stepped in, you know, because the the group of counselors that I worked with for years, you know, were were and understandably so uh averse from their perspective, you know, with CBT uh to the process of something that was keeping me alive being called a disease. You you see, it's like that these are great contrast points, you know, and and you know you and we know you and like you're not in a good spot and the alcohol is keeping you alive, you know, because because it's it's numbing those those things that come at you in the darkness. And so, you know, I had to sit in that contradiction, you know, in the in the rooms, you know, of realizing again what you experienced, you know, like you know, you're in these rooms with some of the brightest people, kindest people that are just tortured. Yeah, tortured. That was the most alarming thing. It's like, oh my gosh, you know, like the world would be so different, you know, if if these people felt like they could function in society and didn't have to do these things, like some of the brightest minds I've ever heard, yeah, you know, telling their stories. Yeah. And uh in that struggle. So it was a great gift to me, you know, to to just be like, oh, that that really removes a lot of lot, whatever external perception I had, you know, it really got removed by by being being in and around that. It's not really something I connected with, you know, in the sense that that I I didn't have the the struggle with alcohol the way that they did, you know, it wasn't wasn't calling me. I just needed to shut my brain off, you know, and didn't know how to do that. So you know that that's clearly a big oversimplification, but there's the story sitting behind it that as best as I I can relate it to all of you. Uh but you know, for for you and your sobriety journey, you know, you know you know, having to leave your hometown, you know, just just to get out of the tangled mess of thinking, you know, that comes with the numbness, you know, and and the excuses we have to make, but also the torture that's inside of our heart at the same time of like, I don't know how else to deal with what I'm feeling. Uh what has that been for you?
SPEAKER_05Um I mean, it's been different things, obviously. And um, you know, I've had my my ups and my downs with it. Like I uh I mean I was things were so crazy uh back in uh in uh Columbus when I left. Um I mean, just all the things that we talked about, like just I mean Yeah, I I don't need Gordon D. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean it it and the way that my brain as a you know basically child, you know, in his early 20s um was functioning was I was just on another planet. I mean, because I I mean it was like like I mean, just heavy. Like, I mean, I was it on another planet, you know, like it and and so that first um that first round of sobriety for me was um, you know, I woke up, you know, and I'm staying at this place. I had gone through, you know, this thing where they were able because I was, you know, 100% dependent. Um, it was the only thing that mattered. Um and you know, after I got out of the detox after a couple weeks and transitioned into this other place, you know, I'm like looking at this water tower, you know, it says College Park on it. And I'm like, man, I'm in College Park. Like I, you know, like had heard all the rappers rapping about College Park, you know, and I felt like somebody had like, do you remember those old tape decks that had the counters and you press the button and it all flipped back to zero? Yeah, that was my mind. I just felt like somebody pressed that button and everything went to blank. And I was just like, what is going on?
SPEAKER_02Sorry, little disruption there.
SPEAKER_05Um, you know, and it was just like I, you know, and it was like starting all over. You know, I was still pretty young, pretty resilient, um, like at that moment. Um, you know, and then um, you know, spent like I think like four or five years um in Atlanta. You know, I I I found a buddy um there that we both staked sober together, you know, and and we were just doing stupid shit. Like strip clubs are huge in Atlanta, you know. So we just like go hang out, strip clubs, you know. I was playing music, I was working, like whatever, just being like in our 20s, like just wilding out in Atlanta, um, filming skate videos, like just doing whatever. And then back when I moved to LA, I kind of like, you know, we were starting to make music with one of my old friends, you know. It's like I can, you know, I can start smoking weed again, you know, this and that. Um, and then that led to, you know, drinking again, and that led to, you know, cocaine again, and then that led to opiates again and selling drugs, and you know, like all right back into the mix. Um, and then um, you know, just kind of ups and downs, and and that I mean that lasted for a long time. Um, even into like meeting my wife. Um, you know, by that point, I think that I wasn't drinking. I was just like kind of like on the California, whatever. Um and and I was like putting in a lot of work in Atlanta on that uh you know, graffiti's been a huge part of my life, um, and just putting in tons of work. Um, you know, that's my drug in a lot of ways. Um and um that game, I love it. Um and uh, you know, we had um Cairo, um, our firstborn, and then you know, I ran into one of my old buddies um that um first started using heroin with, and he was living down there and it was just like kind of rolled into it. There was there was a couple really bad situations, and I was just like, man, like this is so fucking dumb. Like, and then I they invented this new thing, the boxing, you know, so like got on that, you know, and so I was able to like just maintain like this. I like it was like almost instant, like I felt like once I started doing dope again, it was like I instantly was like the physical addiction was like right back.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05It was I was like, fuck, like I'm back here, yeah. Where I have to give this person money to like be able to fucking put one foot in front of the other. Um I mean that that that's I think difficult for people to understand too, that physical addiction side to to alcohol or um opiates or whatever. But then um, you know, just kind of like was doing that and it was like drinking and whatever, like and we moved out of here and fast forward, you know, whatever. Um, and just um the New Year's of 2020. Um I got um I always like I kept getting sick like with work and like all this stuff, like right around that time. Like I'm pretty good immune system, but I uh always on New Year's because at work we had like the holidays, like all this stuff, and then all of a sudden we got to do a lot of bodies inventory. We got to count everything, and it's just like you're you're you're just energy levels are depleted, and then all of a sudden, like and I think it was like actually COVID. I got gnarly sick 2020, 2019 going into 2020. Just gnarly, and I was on like I got and it whittled it down to such a small dose that like finally I was like, fuck it, I'm gonna be sick anyways. Let me just kick, like let me just be done with it. Yeah. And I was able to do that um and finally be free after like being on that for like I think it was probably like six years or something like that, which is ridiculous. Um, and then like we're still kind of drinking and smoking and stuff, and then um uh a couple years later, uh ran into uh met a guy here in town. Uh was he came into my life magically through work and we worked closely together. Um and he um, you know, has like at this point, probably like 33 years sober. Um, but he he he had that spark, you know, that that attraction rather than promotion. Yeah, you know, and it was just like I was like, man, there was that clarity that I wanted. Cause at that point, like before the using when I was younger was like I was on another planet. Like I was functioning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were just it was just I and my thoughts and what I thought reality was were and then this one was just like every time I was drinking and whatever, like it was just fucking like my brain was just like it was like turning it off and off and off and off to where I couldn't even formulate thoughts. I couldn't like I would like like stutter in my words and stuff. And um I was like, man, I fucking so he always says it, he's like, you know, you were like you're like an old car that just needed to be jump started.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You know, so finally I was able to stop drinking, yeah, stop smoking. And um, it was that clarity that I wanted. Um, and that's what it brought me. And that's what um, you know, it's been a few years now, and um it's like every I remember one of my first therapists way back in the day was saying, like, oh, just wait till you hear the big pop. And the big pop comes after like five years, you know, and that that's when the the pop of your head coming out of your ass. And um I haven't heard that phrase before. I got most green. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, what's that?
SPEAKER_05Like, oh my head's out of my ass now. Yeah. And um, you know, I'm still waiting on that, but I can feel my brain like, you know, it's it's coming back online. You know, I kept saying that. And it's, you know, and that's part of like all the wonderful things that are happening with our family and with my, you know, everything that's going on. I mean, since since um since I stopped, we had another kid.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know, I had a laugh.
unknownI'm like, wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05It's like I think he was born. I was like 46, you know, or something.
SPEAKER_02It's just like crazy. Yeah, but but you know, I look from this end, we we don't know each other well. Yeah, you know, it we we've spent a lot of time together, but like we don't know each other. There's never been this deep conversation. There's we don't like hang out outside jujitsu. Little little 30-second intervals before we're trying to kill each other, shaking hands when we're done giving a hug. Yeah, but but uh no, you you know, I I gotta tell you from this end, the joy in your eyes right now. You know, this thing, like you're like, I'm having another kid, yeah, you know, and I'm looking at you at your age, you're just like, Are you fucking insane?
SPEAKER_03No, it was like, I don't know if I've been around somebody more joyful about a moment, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, especially, you know, given the physical paradigm that that you're entering into this next cycle with. You know, you got some kids that are you know almost done. You know, it's it's it's you know, then like you know, Kim and I both look at each other, whatever somebody said, When it are it's just like, wow, like like we're crazy. But it it didn't feel that way with you. It's just it's like, oh yeah, I remember that feeling. Well, it's crazy too. Yeah, I mean life.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and we can do it again. It's a blessing, yeah. And it, you know, it gets easier each time, kind of, because like the first time you're like, what the fuck? What am I supposed to do? And then like that not sleeping hits you. And then the, you know, we got Cairo's 15 and Odessa's nine, and and they love Seoul, you know, and they're they're able to help out, you know. Um, yeah, it's it's and he's he's amazing, you know, it's like, you know. Yeah, I'm me and my wife or Diane are just stoked about the fact that we got to do it again and have three kids. And I mean, our house is chaos, you know, with three kids and a dog and a cat. It's supposed to be chaos. Yeah. It's great because we'll miss that when it's you know, it's like I just try and be present in it and just like be happy with like the fact that we get to like have that. Because there's so many people, you know, that either don't get that or whatever, you know. It's like, I mean, I think of you know, we talked about people that we've lost, like there's so many people that just I mean, just kids, it's just like one time, yeah. Try something gone. Yeah. And that was me a lot of times, but somehow I got fucking lucky.
SPEAKER_02Are you okay with talking about clarity?
Meaning Clarity And Choosing A Better Self
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Because I think that uh you don't know that you said it, your head popping out of your ass, like the pop, you know, because because I can, you know, when you said it, I'm like, oh, that's what happened. You know, and and it, you know, the thing was is it wasn't about alcohol for me. You know, it it was this grind of meaning. You know, that somehow, you know, for much of my life it was sharing words and sharing experiences with people, you know, just being there for them. That provided so much meaning to my life. But that need for meaning. You know, this this thing of like everything's got to mean something, you know, what was set me on a treadmill, you know, where where I'm I am grinding, you know, 12 to 14 hours a day. You know, I'm working full time, I'm pastoring fairly full time, I'm coaching, I'm being a good husband, a good father, I'm doing all these things. You know, what caught me is it just stopped, right? My kids grew up, it's like boom. And then then these things that I had dedicated my myself to time-wise, that's when the voices caught up. That that's that's when something I struggled with my whole life, which was being suicidal, really like, boom, here I'm I'm coming. Yeah, you know, like you know, that fear of there not being a kind of meaning to life the way that I imagined it scared the bejesus out of me. You know, like because I had succeeded. That made it feel even worse. Yeah. You know, just about everything I touched, I was good at, and then most of it was all gone all of a sudden. You know, it was like there's just this gap. You know, and you could call it life crisis, that's not what it was. You know, it was like uh, oh shit, I'm good at what I do. Like, what am I doing? You know, like what do I do next after having you know won six Super Bowls and freaking Tom Brady of life? Started something new, start drinking.
SPEAKER_03Got good at that. That's not something to get good at.
SPEAKER_02But but uh but the you know, uh as I shared before, the microphones were on, you know, this this this moment, you know, where where you know you stop the numbness and then it's all waiting for you, you know, all the thoughts, all the stuff and the process that I went through really for the first year, you know, of just you know, sitting with the realities of of all that I had done, mostly good things, right? And I got this thing, you know, sitting here called alcohol. And it's a really easy, oh yeah, I'm not alcoholic. Just whatever you don't like about me, you know, gets to sit over there. But I knew that that's not true. It's like you know, my my he didn't directly walk out on me, but but but but my my sponsor is a great was a great guy and love him a lot. You know, we got two and a half hours into my inventory work and he walked out on me.
SPEAKER_03You know, he's like it's like when do you start drinking? Like, uh it's a little long way away from here. He's like, I'm here to talk about alcohol brilliant. I'm not here to talk about your thing.
SPEAKER_02I'm here for the booze. I'm here for the booze, and he's a great guy. But that you know, that was the that was the big pot for Nate. Like, oh, this this is you know, I can't make my life about this thing. You know, it was all too easy to stop. Yeah, I'm good at things. If only stop, I'll stop.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_04Is that how it was for you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. No, it was you know, I I still go to the same liquor store to get my zins. There's no trigger. Yeah, you know, it's not that I don't drink, I just don't, you know, it it was it was not a thing before. I made it a thing. Yeah. And you know, kind of back to before. You know, yeah, yeah. So it's like an unfair, like I I don't get to sit in the rooms. I I don't get to go, oh yeah, you know, simple, you know, it's not screaming at me. Yeah, that doesn't even talk to me. I choose it when I do, I un choose it when I don't, you know, it's like, oh yeah, you know, I actually don't feel like this feeling today, so I'll have a drink. Yeah, you know, so so that that's not I I don't get to sit and act, yeah, like I'm struggling with it. But also the sobriety part behavioral patterns. Yeah, the sobriety part was the thing that hit me the hardest. Is like actually seeing things for what they are, you know, which is which is super scriptural, you know, for for the pastor guy, you know, because Paul is the only person who talked about this and he wrote half the New Testament, you know, that you need to approach the word or world with a sober view. You you need to see it for what it is to understand what it is that I'm saying. And uh that's that's what the rooms gave me, you know, which which is like seeing the things. You know, like like not trying to make something right that isn't right, you know, not as it pertains to alcohol, but just as it pertains to life. There are just things that aren't right. There's not a whole lot you can do about it. You can be available for people, you know, but be careful in that transaction. You know, that that love is something we get to participate in, but it is transactional. You know, that the the grace of God is what really uh holds things together, you know, and grace just is you have to give or accept love. You know, there there's no yeah, it it's it's very transactional in that way. I and that these things are principles that we get to participate in, you see. They're not things we own. You know, that that that's what I walked away from. Like I don't own any of this shit. I don't own forgiveness, I don't own love, I don't own any of it. I get to participate in a principle. You can choose it. Yeah, I can choose to be in the flow of that or not. And my desire to love more people is my desire, and that's my addiction. You see, yeah. It is like, oh, I'm addicted to love.
SPEAKER_05Well, that's that's weird. Well, that's the yeah, for me, that was like kind of like yeah, understanding that it's sometimes it just manifests in the alcohol or manifests in these things that damage our life, but they can manifest in other ways and even in positive things that can also damage our life. You know, where it's like, oh, I love doing this thing and I'm gonna neglect all my responsibilities because I'm just so obsessed with this thing. It's a disease of obsession, you know. So it and and for me, it comes in different ways. But I also liked what you were saying, um, you know, talking about um, you know, you had done this thing for so long, and then all of a sudden you kind of felt like it came to an end. And you're like, what do I do now? And you're like, oh, I drink. And it's like, um, you know, because I think that um finding things that we truly that truly give us happiness, and like that I've been able to find, you know, whether it's music and I do music for a long time, and then for whatever reason it kind of stops working in the way that it worked before, or skateboarding, or then um, you know, okay, now it's like graffiti or you know, like just these different things. And it's like, but then you like, you know, it runs its course. You know, and not that you don't love it, but that that big mountain you had to climb to like understand it or get to a point to where you were like proficient at something, or you know, whatever you were getting from it, it it dissipates. And then you're just like, all right, what now? You know, and um, yeah, it's just interesting. Like, you know, obviously, like a jiu-jitsu is a long journey. Yeah. Um, but it's like which is which is amazing because it's like, you know, some of these other things aren't such long journeys, you know, to get good at like, you know, yeah, you gotta do it a whole bunch, but like whatever.
SPEAKER_06Like, I'm there now, and it's like, you know, I don't know how long it's been, you know, three, four years that we've been doing jujitsu, and it's just like I'm like, oh man, like it's just there's just so much to it, you
Jiu Jitsu As Mercy And Safe Masculinity
SPEAKER_06know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well. And and and above that, like, you know, Master Claudio, like the things that he he says sometimes, like where like life is like jujitsu, you know, it's like you just need to like that has time given me so much too. Because like my sobriety kind of like came on with jujitsu, you know.
SPEAKER_02Jiu Jitsu is such an uncomfortable topic for me. Because when you show up and you hear people talking, jujitsu artists, about jujitsu jujitsu, you get in this like silly conversation of like, it's not fucking life. Like, what are you guys talking about? It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And then you realize that, at least for me, this is how I've described it, it's the first time I've actually genuinely experienced mercy in its truest form. Yeah, I can kill you. That's on the table. But what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna take all of who I am and allow you to learn as long as you're willing to learn gently. But death is always sitting as the as the other product. Dismemberment. And and it it was a weird realization, like, oh, this is mercy. Oh, this is a journey. Oh, I'm never gonna be good at it. Like, never. Yeah, ever. You know what I can beat the guys that came behind me. What does that mean? Nothing. And by the way, they start beating you in like you know, a couple, three years, because they're they're on their journey differently. I'm not even trying to improve, I'm just showing up. And it's the first place I haven't had to compete. That's what made it safe for me. There's I don't have to compete, I can just be here in mercy, yeah, and experience mercy at its finest. And you know, I I don't finish. I I I can't finish. I have not taught myself to finish. I don't want to know what it's like to finish. I want to know the pain and the process. That's part of my dynamic. Okay, now I have these this belt with these two stripes. What's the pain like here? You know, what what what's what's the advancement of the ladder where I'm gonna experience more? And it's weird how built into my brain, you know, because I've been able to recognize oh, like this, this is what was happening to me the last 20 years. This is what I was doing. It's like, no, I don't want it to finish. You know, I don't want to end this. And you know, I think addiction's a misnomer, to be honest. I I I you know, I used to always joke around as as a pastor, is like if you can explain the difference between loving someone your whole life and addiction, I'm real curious. I'm curious, you know, because the the the the traits are so the same. You know, uh and and because you know the nature of addiction is it burns these narrow pathways, well, that's what love does too. You know, it's like you you get to a point in your marriage where you just couldn't imagine being with anybody else.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it's not because of the flaws of the other human, it's just like it doesn't fit the way I think. Yeah, because you guys have become so much more. Is that addiction or is that love? You know, or the the neural pathways, you know, and and you know, I get using the term addiction just to describe the you know, a a form of of behavior that that you know it's has a chemical thing and and all the kind of things that feel safe, but like addiction and love to me are the same thing. Yeah. You know, it's like, well, if if you love heroin, then you love heroin. Yeah. You know, that's it's that's your thing, you know. But but the the attributes, you know, the return clearly is different. You know, there's okay. There it is. But you know, so so you know, as you can tell, I'm sitting in some pretty safe parameters, some pretty safe tools to to look back, you know, on what was happening to me, you know, when I had to consume alcohol to survive the day. Yeah. Uh you know, but also I was turning jujitsu into that. That's that's why I backed off the last two years. I just like, you know, actually God's got this. I don't I don't need to, you know, do this thing to feel complete. You know, there is no ladder here that that's bigger than the ladder God is offering me everywhere. Not that I'm gonna quit. It's just that my relationship with it was like, I'm trying to get something out of this that that isn't necessary. You know, God will have other things, you know, and and you know, as you back off, it's hard to get back in, you know, as it is with anything on purpose.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and everybody's journey, like just like everything, everybody's journey is different, you know, and um what it means to one person that you know, it's like it's just crazy. It's like I don't even I fell into it. It's like again, like the all the things that um, you know, like falling into Santa Cruz, falling into uh Atlanta, falling into jujitsu, like all these different things. It's like, or maybe just lucky enough to find, you know, because um, you know, when we showed up there, you know, and Diane's like, oh, but we're over here doing this thing, like because one of her friends wanted the kids to do it together, you know.
SPEAKER_06She's like, come check it out, you know, da-da-da.
SPEAKER_05So I went over there, you know, and it's like, you know, met Claudio and just, you know, she's like signing the kids up. She's like, Well, they're like, Oh, you can do a family plan, you know. She's like, But do you want to do it? It's like I wrestled in high school, you know. It's like I always always thought about it, but it's like, you know, you come up with the different reasons why you can't. It's fucking scary. Yeah. To me, like I didn't even like it's crazy because I didn't even like I was kind of basing it off of wrestling a little bit, you know. So it's like, I mean, I knew about it because like, you know, in the 90s you you saw like when the Gracies came on the scene and stuff, and like uh yeah, and it was like it wasn't until I like started kind of going and uh you know, rolling with people. Like I didn't, I was like, so what's the point of this? And then like I went with somebody and they like guillotine me like uh or guillotine having saying guillotine sounds, guillotine sounds um like five times in like you know, five minutes, I was like, oh murder.
SPEAKER_04Murder is the point like we're sitting here trying to like murder each other.
SPEAKER_02So we can murder each other.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And then um, you know, at first I was taking Claudia's classes and then uh you know starting to come in uh with Nate and uh you know, Nate would really open my eyes to a bunch of stuff. He was like, you know, take it easy, like just learn it. Like, and you know, like I think one of the things that sobriety taught me is to listen to what people are saying, you know, and to like take in like somebody who knows what they're talking about. Because there's so many times in life that I haven't listened to people that have gone before me on things and it really fucked me up, you know. So, you know, they're talking about your I mean, he's you know, a master. Like it's like, you know, he gave me some great advice and just take it easy. You're a big guy, you know, just just learn it, you know, and just take it easy. And um yeah, his guidance and Claudio's guidance and everybody. I mean, there's been a lot of great teachers. I mean, you know, you've taught me a bunch of stuff. Even the bad ones are great.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, yeah, if there's anything I taught you, it was just how to be gentle. I think you gave me like one of my best submissions that I have right now, the head and on.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, of course, yeah. Of course you can. Yes. You know, you did you you did that, you you're you do the head and auto, right? It might have been at the time. Yeah, I think that you you were the one that first started showing me that. And like that's like to me, that's like butter now. You know, and it's it's great.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, well, it it it's to people who don't do jujitsu, you know, we sound like loons. You know, it's like it's really hard to explain, just like someone who hasn't surfed, you know, it's like can't really explain, it just is, you know, once you're there you realize that you're never gonna, but you're striving to, you know, it it it just becomes the safe space, you know, and and you know, for for me, like especially recently, as as I'm re-entering, you know, after after this real quiet time of of reflection, uh to to come to the gym, uh seeing that in all that deep masculinity that these men that we are around are just looking for intimacy in a context that feels safe. You know, that this is this is my my new approach as I'm going. It's like I you know, there's intimacy I need that can only happen with men when we're in the struggle. Yeah. And when we're feeling the things that actually life really feels like that we're pushing down to, you know, with us to raise our kids to go to work, all that kind of stuff. Life's a fight. And I want to be somewhere safe in that fight. And and really recognizing, oh yeah, man. You know, how often is it that met like a whole group of men will all hug each other when you walk into a room?
SPEAKER_05Oh yeah. You know, you know, like oh the friendships. I mean, it's not even like like the like you said, like we don't even know each other that well. It's like some of my friends, like I mean, I I'm like one of those people that I don't have a lot of like go out and go to the bar or like whatever, like have a bunch of like kind of like whatever friends like I have a bunch of like you know long-term deep friends, you know, and then it's like, but like with jujitsu, it's like it's this other thing where it's just like like we don't know each other that well, but we're like, I mean, I feel like we, you know, we know each other right there. Yeah, because we spend this time um learning this thing and like having this space to like, you know, explore something that's pretty cool. You know, like can like Nate says, like, just like you teach your kids how to swim, you should teach your kids how to defend themselves in jujitsu. You know, it's like is the ultimate like strongest way of doing that, in my opinion. Yeah, yeah. I mean, sure, like whatever, like there's some bunch, but it always goes. I've fought a lot in my life. Like you you've talked about like you know, surfing culture, like I know how to fight.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I didn't say fight before I showed up to jujitsu. I didn't know how to be with people in the fight. Yeah, that feels like life. That that's really what it's given to me is that safe spot. Like, a life's always kind of felt this way, but it's not never felt safe. And this place feels safe.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's weird, you know. Well, it's crazy too how you start to feel safe in that, or not safe, but like more comfortable. Like, because anytime I would be in a fight, it's like you're in the fight. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? And I had like a dude attack me like shortly after I'd kind of started my jujitsu journey. And uh, and I was like, man, like as he was like hitting me, I'm like, um, this was at work. I was like, you know, this guy just like was on one and I was like, he's hitting me, you know. And I was like, oh man, like I should I should like do a single leg and like take him down and like take his back. I'm like thinking about this as he's like hitting me. I'm like, I've been hit before.
SPEAKER_00I didn't know this part.
SPEAKER_05And uh and uh and you know at that point my shirt got all ripped and like all this stuff, and like somebody broke it, it got broken up, you know, and I was like, oh cool. I was like, man, like I can't believe that like I didn't jump into it sooner and start, you know, doing something. And I was like, oh I can't believe that. Like I thought I'd be further along with my jujitsu. And like I went back, uh the security camera zito and like looked, and and it was funny because like I had grabbed him. You grabbed it in all the punches he was so like I could feel him throwing the punches, but I was blocking, you know, because I could feel his because I was connected to him, I could feel his body. Yeah, and like I didn't think that I had done good, like had done a great job of subduing the the situation, like he just came at me, you know, and it was just like this thing where it was like I'm good, those aren't connecting. They were connecting, they were just going over. I was like, Oh, I guess I did a great job. I guess jujitsu's talking a ton.
SPEAKER_03It's called the gentle art for a reason, yeah.
SPEAKER_05But being Safe in that, like in that moment, you know, because like I remember when I started, it's like you know, people always talk about seeing red or whatever, but it's like that that moment when the fight starts and you're just like you get overwhelmed by your feelings. Yeah, that cortisol just goes blunk. You know, but in but now it's like I mean, I can't remember the last time you feel that, you know, it's like you don't feel that anymore. It's like you feel this, you just start locking into the game.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you just didn't flow. It's uh there's been a couple moments since I started where like there have been situations that have arisen, you know, whether it's someone in a road rage pattern or something like that, where it's like that old feeling of girding up, no, just totally settled. Well, you know, let's let's see, you know, what what this person's bringing, you know, and and the calmness that comes over you because you're there a lot. Yeah, you know, you know, like you know, unless there's a weapon involved and you know, I'm not I mean, check check the ears. You know, one of my applicants, check the ears.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. In those moments where it's like, you know, at first when you start getting choked, you start panicking as soon as it happens, and now you're like, okay, let's see how far this can go.
SPEAKER_03Oh no, no, no, that's funny.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, um, you know, looking into the future, uh what do you feel is driving you here moving forward?
Future Plans Old Soul Tattoos And Gallery
SPEAKER_05Um it's a tough one. I mean, I I think that um let me contextualize a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah You know, I don't want to overreach, but I think there's some commonality, you know, that sits in the room right now. You know, as far as time and space goes, you know, that that there are things that we don't know to say that we have in common that are happening to us both right now. You know, and and and you're younger than me, you know, so so I don't want to presume that you're sitting in that same age frame or or generational realities. But you know, at the same time you know, we wake up because we have to. And it feels to me like you're waking up because you get to. You know, that like like you're we're both entering a new space, right? Oh, I get to wake up today. Yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and it's funny because I had um when when I first moved on to Atlanta and I kind of got going, um I was living in that space. I you know, it was just like, oh man, like I get to get up and I get to have my mind all to myself, and you know, like I'm not owned by this other thing. And and like over the years that dissipated or whatever. And it's like you're right, like it is coming back around where it's just like to this thing where I'm like, oh man, like yeah, like I get to, I get to enjoy, you know, waking up and I'm trying to live in the the moments of like, you know, the chaotic moments that like get like super frustrating. It's like, no, this is this is this is the stuff, you know, it's the the journey, like I'm in the journey, and it's like I I I've felt like I'm living on borrowed time before, and and I've I I definitely feel like I'm living on borrowed time, but I want to enjoy that borrowed time and give my best version of myself to to my wife and my kids and to the people around me, you know. Um because you know, we can choose to not do that. And I've chosen that plenty of times and years before. Um, just being like a uh a shitty version of myself, you know. Um it's a it's a choice, you know. Or it gets to be a choice now. Yeah, you know it gets to be a choice. Yeah, because at times it's definitely you don't get to choose.
SPEAKER_02You're you're doing the your baby's crying, but no choice.
SPEAKER_05Well, I was thinking more like the other side where I was.
SPEAKER_02No, I I understand. But but these are the things, right? You know, there's that you know, I think for my life, I I put a bunch of things in my life, you know, where where agency got removed, right? You just have to do them. And and you know, uh on a mental healthy journey, you know, agency is key. You know, that no matter the circumstances, the I have a choice. But you know, you know, life's life. You you know, you don't get to choose to go to work, you're going to work. You know, you don't get to choose to change a baby's diaper. So you someone's got to do it. And I said that I would be, and that's inconvenient at times. Yeah. There doesn't feel like there's a lot of agency because they're they're all that it all comes with that stuff. Yeah, 100%. And uh so you don't feel all the gratitude that you know that comes from, yeah, uh I'm I'm freely choosing this moment. Like, well, I don't know that I'm freely choosing having to show up to work today. It's it's an it's an imperative. Here we are, you know, the choices are removed. Uh you know, I can be a better version of a person in the middle of a spot where I don't really have this a choice, you know, but but that that feeling of agency, which which is you know what I've gotten, it it makes it like this little interaction just really allowed me to answer that question different or ask the question different. What do you feel like you get to do in the future?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean, I think that um yeah, it's it. I mean, we're we're in a crazy spot right now with our family, and um, you know, it it recently, very recently, I've I've I've come to the spot where it's like I need to um you know fulfill myself and the things that I care about um beyond my family to better show up for my family. Yeah. Um and um you know, in a lot of ways, like you said, like the agency's been removed. It's like I was just doing the things that I needed to do because that was my art, like taking care of my family like that. It's like I'm doing this because this is what I need to do to take care of my family. And now it's like, how can I take care of my family better? Is by um taking care of myself in a way that I can show up better for them. And and and once I kind of made that decision, things instantly started changing with us. I know I shared with you earlier that um, you know, my wife and I are opening up a uh a new tattoo shop for her on the west side. And in the space that we found, it's like, you know, it's a lot like your space over there. And then above it um is another room, and it's like that's gonna be the gallery space. You know, so it's like all of a sudden, like when you choose these things, like the doors open. You know, and that's like one of the things that's like been pretty amazing for me recently. So in the future, like you know, we're moving forward. Um, you know, old soul tattoos, yeah. Santa Cruz is um about to open. Uh the second where's it at? It's on Swift Street, yeah. Yeah, right there in the uh artworks building. Um sharing kind of like the uh space with uh Brenda from Hotline. Um they're kind of on the side there, and we have the uh entrance right off Swiss Street. Um and then the gallery above it, the second floor. TSF. Um it's one of my crew, my graffiti crews, our collective, so it's like gotta keep with the acronyms, you know. Um but that's it's super exciting, you know. It's like who knows where it will go. Um, but my wife's got like a super solid foundation. Um, and uh, you know, Igor that uh works with us, or yeah, he's gonna be working with us. Okay. So the three of us over there doing some things. And so that's the immediate future. Um, continuing to raise the kids, and we live on the west side. Um, so we're we're blessed with the spot over there. We're just gonna keep doing that. And so good. It's it's amazing. I mean, it's like, and you know, I go back to that friend that said, you know, that Santa Cruz will give to you if you give to it, you know. So it's like, and I feel like now we can, you know, obviously, like with work and everything, it's like, you know, I invest work's one thing. You know, it's like I'm working, I'm running a business. Yeah, like I can do, I can run a business really good. Like I worked, you know, in Atlanta, I was with Whole Foods and I was a regional coordinator for them, or you know, whatever. Um and you know, it was in that that height where it really boomed, you know, and it's like we were doing a lot of amazing things, and I was like part of like some really great teams that like went on to become the global that still running. He's like, you know, one of my guys that like I came up with.
SPEAKER_02He's well, I I know there's a lot of expertise that lies with you. Yeah, because there's key language that I use at times just to kind of check people, and you're like, whoop, you know, what was that? Yeah, you know, on the map. Do you feel like there's anything that we missed, you know, in this moment? Well, of course.
SPEAKER_03Is it for another podcast?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean, you know, we can go on and on and on for hours. Yeah. Um yeah, I you know, thank you for you know sharing time
Gratitude For The Team And Closing Thoughts
SPEAKER_05with me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. No, I'm I'm glad to have you. You know, I I I want to close with this with you because uh you know that there are times in your life, you know, where where you just need particular things. And and uh you wouldn't necessarily know this about me, you know, watching you in your journey, you know, showing up. I remember when you showed up, you know I'm the gentle giant at the back. You know, whenever someone new shows up, you always see me in the back. Yeah. And it and it's not just uh because I'm pacing things or or trying to um yeah, avoid stuff. It's it's you know, I want to demonstrate the mercy that sits. You know, I know how I look. You know, I I know how scary it could be to walk up to me, you know, your first time somewhere, like, oh shit, what's gonna, you know, what you know, is is this what I'm facing? And you know, it it's just a posture that I've taken in the club, you know, since since I began that once I got safe, I I want to be a safe place. Yeah, you know, when someone shows up, you know, especially someone of your size. But I just want you to know how much joy you've brought to my life. You know, like like just you know, just you being you, you know, we've never had a any deep conversation or anything like that, but it really bit has been a great, you know, three or four years of just watching and being around you and seeing you connect with the group. And you know, as we've expressed already, it's not like we hang out or anything like that, but but you really are light, you know, to the room when you show up, and it it's really great to get to know you a little bit more here. So that's awesome. Thank you for coming in.
SPEAKER_05Thank you. And um, you know, the flip side of that, it's like um yeah, I think that like, you know, you were definitely that for me. Like when I came in. Um, you you play that role. And I think that it's important for the team to have people that because everybody's in different spots, you know. Like some days I'm like, fuck it, like I don't want to do this or I don't want to do that, or someday's like, all right, I'm gonna go hard. I'm gonna I'm gonna roll with the biggest guys and try and like really work on my jujitsu and see where I'm at. And other times I'm just like, yeah, you know, like I just worked a long day. Yeah. Um, but that role that I think that you feel fill is like so important to like have there because you know, I think that probably a lot of people, like if they don't have that connection in the beginning to somebody that's like, hey, no, it's okay, like this is gonna be cool. Like it, like it's fun, like it, like check this out, or like you know, teaching me things like you, you know, you laughed at it, but it's like you did teach me like early on, like a lot of shit where I was like, Oh, you're like, no, you don't want to do that, or you want to do this, or you know, try that or whatever. And it's like that's like super important. And I think that like it was super helpful to me.
SPEAKER_02So I have a ton of appreciation and admiration for you guys. I'm I'm glad it was a help. I I I often look at my jujitsu and and look at how little progression in a way that there's been you know, it's like we all stay in the back, but I don't think it's because I'm in the back.
SPEAKER_03It's just the case because I'm some days.
SPEAKER_04I'm just like, oh man, I'm crushing it. And other days I'm like, what happened? Like this is like the worst like juitsu that this school has ever seen.
SPEAKER_02Just as soon as you get good at something, like it goes away. It's like, oh, oh, this guy's doing this shit. That's not gonna work.
SPEAKER_05And there's all those different like levels, right? Where it's like like right now, I'm learning you plateau, like you had Narma I was talking about. It's like that was I just was doing it. It was like butter, and then I'm like, all right, I need to like expand, yeah, learn new stuff. I need to try something.
SPEAKER_02That's all there is, is something new. Yeah. Uh all right. Well, listen, uh, we have been podcasting here at Sunny California Studios. It's it's been really great to be here the last couple days. Uh it's a great spot, huh? Yeah, this spot's insane. Really pretty cool. Yeah, this is a beautiful place. Yeah, we'll we'll see what emerges from here. But anyways, uh I would like to do it for the culture, you know. Thanks, Santa Cruz Bias magazine for uh podcast, also for inside beach for the support these last couple years. All of you bless you. Have a good rest of your day.