Growing Tall Poppies

A Carer's Perspective: Coping With Challenges and Making Every Day Count

• Dr Natalie Green • Season 2 • Episode 54

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In this week's episode of Growing Tall Poppies, host Dr Nat Green sits down for a heartfelt and deeply authentic conversation, with Mr Paul Watson.  They dive into the emotional journey of navigating trauma, grief, and post-traumatic growth through the eyes of a Carer. 

Paul Watson is a devoted husband to wife Bron, and father to 5 boys ranging in age from 16 to 26 years.

In this touching episode, we hear his carer's perspective on the daily challenges, small victories, and deep connection that come with supporting a loved one through trauma and adversity. Paul shares how he learned to make every day count and how their experiences have inspired the creation of The Serenity Project — a space for hope, connection, and healing.

Paul shares openly about the reality of sitting with tough emotions, the layers of healing that unfold over time, and the personal attributes that have helped him navigate this path and move forward — including the importance of self-awareness, learning, and conscious decision-making.

We explore the myth of "resilience," the realities of unhealthy coping mechanisms like alcohol, and how self-development becomes a critical tool for navigating a difficult path.

Paul also shares how he and his family have made intentional choices to live fully, travel, and embrace life despite uncertainty.

At the heart of today's episode is the introduction of The Serenity Project — an inspiring new movement aiming to support carers and families navigating the chaos of cancer and the medical system by providing emotional and practical resources alongside treatment pathways to assist in finding an inner peace and "healing".

Key Takeaways

  • The reality of processing big emotions after trauma
  • Why healing is like peeling layers of an onion
  • Key personal traits that support post-traumatic growth
  • The overuse (and misunderstanding) of the word "resilience"
  • Honest reflections on alcohol as a coping strategy
  • The importance of conscious living: "If you want to do it, go and do it!"
  • Creating meaning and making every day count
  • The birth of The Serenity Project 

Whether you're in a similar role, opr supporting someone who is, this episode is a valuable resource for anyone looking to understand the carer's journey and discover ways to find balance amidst the challenges.

Stay tuned — details and ways to get involved will be shared soon !

If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen

Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.

Dr Nat Green:

Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Nat Green, and I'm so excited to have you join me as we discuss what it means to navigate your way through post-traumatic growth and not just survive, but to thrive after trauma. Through our podcast, we will explore ways for you to create a life filled with greater purpose, self-awareness, and a deep inner peace. Through integrating the many years of knowledge and professional experience, as well as the wisdom of those who have experienced trauma firsthand. We'll combine psychology accelerated approaches. Coaching and personal experience to assist you, to learn, to grow and to thrive. I hope to empower you to create deeper awareness and understanding and stronger connections with yourself and with others, whilst also paving the way for those who have experienced trauma and adversity to reduce their suffering and become the very best versions of themselves. In order to thrive. Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode. I'm really excited today to bring you our next guest on the Growing Tall Poppies podcast. It's my absolute pleasure and privilege to welcome a very dear friend of mine who I've known for a little while, haven't I? A little while probably around,

Mr Paul Watson:

oh, close to 20 years. 20

Dr Nat Green:

years coming up, I think, and I'm really excited to introduce him to you today. We've done a bit of a different angle we're coming from today. I wanna introduce my dear friend, Mr. Paul Watson.

Mr Paul Watson:

Hey guys. Hey Nat

Dr Nat Green:

hey Paul. How are you? Great.

Mr Paul Watson:

Good to be here. Thank you. Yeah, it's

Dr Nat Green:

been a while working on getting this happening because I think what we're gonna talk about today is really, really important and something that does not get spoken about enough. So Paul is gonna do a bit of an introduction, but today is really around looking at it from the perspective of the carer and the person who's been a huge part of the journey of someone who's been through significant trauma and adversity. And I think we don't focus on their story enough. They're often, the focus is on the person going through the trauma, and now it's about really shining the light on the person and the family behind. Trauma sufferer because they also have significant trauma and a different angle to come from. So let's start with Paul. Tell us a little bit about you and what you do in the world.

Mr Paul Watson:

Well, so to begin with, so Paul is my name, and, I'm partner to Bron and dad of our five boys, Josh, Ben, Sam, Tom, and Ollie. And, the boys now range in age from 26 down to 16. And, yeah, look with what you're saying there, Nat is, about the focus. Sometimes you don't want the focus'cause there's enough going on as it is, when it comes to helping, caring, caring in particular with somebody who has gone through, going through, in our case, not one, but two cancer diagnoses, of the. Curable and non-curable kind. So that's, why we're here today is to have a conversation about that. And I'm open, I'm not apprehensive, but you know, you don't get to, you don't talk about this sort of stuff too much and I'm thinking, right, this is gonna dig down into some of the nitty gritty, which is fine. It's good, good to be able to share some of that stuff actually.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. And you know, it's not lost on me. What an honor it is to talk to you about this, because I know that. You do wear your heart on your sleeve with a lot of things, but we don't really talk to you about this. You are the sort of person who says, I'm fine. I'm fine. All good, all good. We can get through it and yeah. Yeah. Positivity is absolutely essential when you're going through something like this, but I think it's also important. There's a reality

Mr Paul Watson:

too. Yeah. Be quiet moments where you're absolutely wondering what the hell is going on and, not so much why is this going on? But what the heck is going on? And where am I in this, um, what we call the vortex, of, you can call it fear, you can call it the cancer machine. But just the vortex.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. So let's go back, we'll set the scene a little bit for our listeners.

Mr Paul Watson:

Which one. Which scene? The

Dr Nat Green:

scene or the listener? The one listener we've got that listens. Got bad news for you, Paul? There's a lot more than one that listens and All right. Okay. And I think this is a really valuable, as I said, a valuable conversation. So let's go right back to Precancer. Mm-hmm. Being a big part of your life. Mm-hmm. So where were things at with you and Bron and the boys back then?

Mr Paul Watson:

So, 2016 which was the year before, we'd, well, we'd been over to over in England, sorting a few things out over there with the family. Overall we were probably like a lot of people just, working hard. Sometimes, spending time wondering what the next plans were making goals. They varied from running our own businesses to, getting out of corporate world into our own thing. And there was things going on. Yeah, like everybody else, you're working, with your family. You're spending time with the family, going through five teenage boys at the time, what's happening nine years ago. So, yeah. It's not a blur. It's actually very, special times in life. And, yeah, hanging out with family and friends and just doing what everybody else does, I think is just doing life.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. And. And we often take that for granted, don't we? Yeah, absolutely. We just go through the motions. Sometimes we are doing work that we love. Sometimes we're just doing it and going through the motions, saying, oh yeah. And we don't really stop and think mm-hmm. We just do yeah. Time with friends. Time with family. And we know that family is absolutely of primary, highest value for you guys. You've always been very family oriented. So you're just going through the motions. Yep. Doing the do. And then let's fast forward to 2017 and what was happening then?

Mr Paul Watson:

So, 2017 we had, well we were dealing with a few things. We'd been away overseas. In a family matter. Then we came back to another family matter, which was Bron's mom going through, a diagnosis of dementia, later stages. And we had, I recall Bron had a referral to get a mammogram and ultrasound done. And that had been, that had been put off by life events. Things going on that, I mean, you should be focusing on yourself, you're focusing on, on everybody else as a, mum often does. And, I think it was the September. Where, Bron decided to get this ultrasound and mammogram done, and had to push the GP at the time because she was sub 50 to get that done. And, I do recall that quite clearly the kerfuffle in ensuring that that was done.'cause in Australia that's really sort of women 50 plus that there's a more of a focus on, on those routine checks and balances. And, yeah. I do recall the day when, Bron was off getting the ultrasound mammogram done and she'd insisted on getting it done. And I remember her having a dream that she, that she had, breast cancer and then, and after a physical examination from the gp, which didn't show anything, and Bron actually ensuring that. She could get this thing done. And the GPS words were pretty much, if you've got cancer, I'll eat my shoe, and, yeah, lo and behold, upon further examination and ultrasound, that there was definitely something there. And, it was breast cancer and yeah, so that was a big day. And going into the GP and sitting there and sitting alongside someone, in my situation was caring about her, of course, not caring about me so much.'cause I thought, well. I'll get through this. Then thinking about how, how the heck do you talk to someone who's as young as seven? And through to the age of 17 roughly, the differences of how, how their mom has got breast cancer and let alone the questions we had, the questions they would anticipate that they would have. Yeah. So thinking about, that and then, you know, when you're a carer, and a dad, and a father and a husband. You're thinking about, you think about the financial things come into it. Like, how are we gonna get through this? How are we gonna do this? We've got commitments, we've got stuff. And yeah. So that was, a big, a big. Event, and it's the best way to put it.

Dr Nat Green:

If I remember correctly, you were both in the business together, so, yeah. So everything relied on the two of you. Moving through it together.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. Look, there was I was a big support factor, and involved, in various ways. Bron was very much front and center and so it wasn't really my business. It was still Bron Watson. So yeah, that was, all those things, like how, how are we gonna do this? Mm-hmm. how do we get by? Because it wasn't a small lump. It was actually a very aggressive kind of cancer, A very immediate, I think within five days, Bron was on the operating table. Going through mastectomy. So things happen pretty quick and, you think it's gonna be, typical Paul Watson, it's gonna be all okay, everything's cool, everything's, we're gonna be fine. It's like, holy hell, this is one heck of a rollercoaster ride.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. And it was very much, and, and I know you've always been someone who's strong, looks at the positive, really forward focused, but there must have been moments where you thought, holy shit, how are we gonna get through this? Yeah,

Mr Paul Watson:

yeah. You're looking, you, you do unfortunately have to look at, what does. Life insurance look like. Mm-hmm. And what does income protection insurance look like? What if there is any? in this case there wasn't, but yeah. Big note on that. Can, we can chat about? Yeah, definitely. But, recommending people look at that sort of stuff very, very carefully and what sort of policies and things they've got, because you don't expect these things to happen to you, especially when Bron never smoked, never drank, never, you know, didn't do anything that leads ordinarily to these sorts of things being exacerbated. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Those realities kick in and it's, you do think, wow, this woman has had a, in some respects, an expiry date handed to her because that's what, the things that get discussed. Fortunate to be still sitting here and, and Absolutely. And still sitting here. Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

But I think they're very real thoughts that we can't pretend

Mr Paul Watson:

no.

Dr Nat Green:

That you can stay focused and positive all the time. There has gotta be times where those thoughts do creep in.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

And that extra pressure for you to stay really strong for your partner.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

Because they're facing it and you are trying to carry the load of Bron's emotions as well as all the boys as well as your own.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yes. And I think, you know, people would often ask, how, because Bron, well, anybody who knows Bron knows that she doesn't answer her mobile at the best of times, but, I call her mobile stationary. It was like, can you please, please, make sure that you handle. Calls and messages and Facebook and all the different things. So yeah, that became, me. Affectionately nicknamed Uber. Uber became, Uber A to Z. So Uber, everything from washing, like, any partner would do, in most cases. I would think that, everything from washing to cleaning, to driving to taxiing, to, administration, to everything, Uber, everything. An Uber has stuck. And that's, that's the nickname.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. I should have affectionately introduced you as Paul, Uber, Watson, your middle name. Yeah. But, but the reality is, we, we laugh at that now, but you very much, you gotta laugh, picked up the load because Bron was so unwell with her treatment.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah, yeah. It was extensive treatment. And, what the system sort of. Deals out. Any woman would know who's been through the same thing, like every woman and even men with breast cancer too, of course. can't deny that, but yeah, everybody, reacts differently. But in her case it was pretty severe, treatment for an aggressive, aggressive breast cancer.

Dr Nat Green:

And then there was the added complication, if I remember correctly, of her being allergic to some of the things in chemotherapy. So she had allergic reactions, correct. Yeah. And was very, very unwell.

Mr Paul Watson:

It was about maybe 20 to 25% of the treatment couldn't be completed because of the reactions to it. Yeah, very severe.

Dr Nat Green:

So that was a, a long road, a long journey. And a lot of things changed, didn't they? You. Sold your house, moved into a rental, taking the pressure off in a lot of ways.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. It was, it was time to do a few things. We, I guess financially made some different decisions that were affected by things that we were doing for the family. And so it meant, yeah, freeing up, like most people, a lot of people have got their equities tied up in their homes. Mm-hmm. And not access to a lot of cash. So we made a change and, bought some land and, that land got sold pretty much straight away because Bron couldn't choose, a doorknob, let alone a color selection. So we offloaded that, rented for a while. And, and then we, yeah, then we've sort of changed a few things since then. But yeah, that was 2018.

Dr Nat Green:

Then. Things smoothed out for a while, didn't they? She, yeah. Worked through that treatment. Yeah. Things were going quite well. She bounced back very well.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. Like in, the business Bron's business, did very, very well. Yeah. We both got, into that with me supporting her, of course. And, because it's always been about primarily women in business. So, that's been helped. Yeah, the business. Went, went very well, for some time. She got involved in some overseas groups and, I don't know how she did it, but she did it and mm-hmm. Kicked on and, really'cause there, back to income and protection insurance, there, there was no insurance. So it was, some people have the, access to that, which has been set up earlier on in life. And that's something that we recommend that, women and men, if you have a certain age, you can absolutely look at your insurances. If you've got, if you do have superannuation, you can speak to your broker or go into, myGov. And this is not. Financial advice, but definitely go and have a look at, what you do have access to. And if you have superannuation, it pays to find out through the superannuation company what insurances are sitting inside your superannuation, that you might be able to turn on or access. Prior to any traumatic events like that people go through. So it's definitely worth, if you've got commitments like mortgages and kids education and those kinds of things, it's definitely worth having a look at

Dr Nat Green:

because Absolutely. That was one of your biggest lessons. Big lesson from a practical point of view, big lesson that put so much extra pressure. Yeah. On you guys because you had to keep going, had to keep going. There wasn't the capacity to stop.

Mr Paul Watson:

No, I

Dr Nat Green:

remember Bron would. Have her treatment and just keep going and keep going and turn up and yeah, she'd race to the toilet to be sick and then come back and she'd just keep going and keep going with your support.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah, she was, she was running Facebook workshops with a turban on mid chemo. She was, she's

Dr Nat Green:

phenomenal. So again, things were, traveling along quite nicely. And then do you wanna share what happened next

Mr Paul Watson:

in 2022?

Dr Nat Green:

Yes.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. So five years goes by, which is your typical, period where if there's no signs of any cancer. It's classed as remission. Yep. So yeah, so despite there being a few little complications in terms of the way that came about with the lack of scans and things, it still to a point, which was excellent in about October, 2022, where, a wonderful, specialist who we were dealing with, she said, you know, look great, great. I remember being in the car, got the phone call, Bron you are technically in remission. So it was like, no more breast cancer, still on medications to, anti blockers and that sort of stuff, which, which is quite normal. And so this wonderful GP that Bron has, Dr. Casey yeah. So, from memory it was a niggling, blood marker that, that Casey was really unsure about and took the extra steps from a diagnostic perspective to, to say, look, I think we need to refer this to a hematologist. And, and so she did. So that was in, I think that was the December, in January we trot off to, to the local hematologist. And, he was a really, he was a lovely guy and, sat down and with the results and looked at us both and said, look, everything's good. You know, you can get on with it. I think he said, well, I'll, I'll see you in 12 months time for a follow up. And, so I trotted off to Sydney to go and do a few things and Bron was, Bron, stayed in Port Macquarie and I remember being in a cafe in Burwood. And, this was four days later and Bron's voice was shaky and, clearly. Had taken a hit. And I'm like, what is going on? What's, what's happening? And she said, all she said was, I've just had a phone call from the specialist, and two results have come back that he wasn't expecting to come back in an abnormal fashion. And, and we've gotta go and see him straight away. And I said, well, what, what do you think? What's going on? And she said, look, it was, he's talking about multiple myeloma. She, he was talking about blood cancer. He was talking about, which these doctors, God bless them, but they, emotional intelligence is not on the top of their, attribute list. But, so he would've been, it sounded like it was just rattling off out of a textbook is what it sounded like to me. That's how it sounds. Mm-hmm. And, so I, needless to say, I, whatever I was doing, I cut that short, jumped in the car straight back to Port Macquarie, couldn't felt like the long, longest four hours in the car ever. Mm. And yeah, we went down this, path of, going through the beginnings of, understanding what multiple myeloma is and bone marrow cancer and treatments. And it was, it was so surreal actually. Yeah. Yeah. I can still feel, I can still very feel that rawness now of just, you can't believe that you are in that again, you know, in that again,

Dr Nat Green:

and knowing that you just had this most euphoric period of. She's all good. We're clear.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. Well what We've

Dr Nat Green:

survived it. And then bang, four days ago we

Mr Paul Watson:

were, she was told, we were both told, everything's fine. Everything's fine. I don't wanna see you again.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. So tell her words,

Mr Paul Watson:

we don't actually, we don't wanna see you again.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. And I still remember having a conversation with you and how raw it was, and we're like, what? Mm-hmm. What, how could he say everything was fine and then bang, oh, he read it wrong or something. So let's go back to that time, and I know it's still really raw and, but I think the listeners need to know what it's really like. What was that like? Not how Bron was feeling, how you were feeling.

Mr Paul Watson:

Look there's two things going on at the same time. You're in free fall because you think you might know cancer with breast cancer bone. Blood related cancer is a whole different world. And the serious nature of bone, bone marrow, and multiple myeloma, you dare not go it Googling it. Mm. You would, you would pack up and disappear. Yeah. You would never come back. No. Googling wasn't our greatest moment Googling was it? No, no. Googling was not, not a not recommended. But multiple myeloma is basically I learned that it is, so this, yeah. Back to two things, probably three things going on. There's three, sort of, the way my mind works is there's three sort of, I guess horizons, if you like. Mm-hmm. Best way to put it. First one is. The fact that it's surreal and you're in, and you're stuck in this, in this vortex once again, being shunted around like a pawn on a, chessboard. Mm. And wondering, gonna get when you get, gonna get taken out or something. And then the next level, next one is like keeping control of your emotions or your behavior triggered by the emotions because mm-hmm. We've done a lot of work in that space. And it's very, very helpful to, where I go to is gratitude the whole time. Yeah. You know, I'm grateful for all different kinds of things and sometimes you're gripping onto the smallest little thing, like, I've got fuel in my car. Mm-hmm. I'm grateful for that today. Because the thought of going to the servo to fill up, you just can't. Process it. When in those times, you know,

Dr Nat Green:

doing that normal day-to-day stuff Yeah. When nothing was normal in your life Right

Mr Paul Watson:

then. Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

yeah.

Mr Paul Watson:

And then once again, having to face the boys and, and your family members and you know that people are going to be coming forward saying, whatever we can do, let us know. We can do it. And you're thinking, I don't even know what I'm doing, let alone, I dunno what you can do. Yeah. What we want. Yeah. You don't wanna appear rude, but it's like, oh man, just leave me, let me be. Mm-hmm. And, sort this mess out. And that's where I go to. Yeah. And so and the third one is, alright, well what, what can we do? What is going on? What am I. How, how am I, how are we going to get through this? I know it's an incurable cancer. We've been told that, you know, the life expectancy is X, y, z and in my mind, myeloma typically is diagnosed when you don't know you've actually got it. Yes. It's a bit like pancreatic cancer. Definitely. Unfortunately, it's, it's too late. And once again, back to our amazing Dr. Casey if she hadn't have done what she'd done, we wouldn't have known mm-hmm. And would've been a, what they call smoldering and a severely smoldering case. And then, yeah, when you lean over and, and you crack a rib, you wonder what's going on. It's, well advanced. So, for me, it was hanging on to. And I still hang on to the fact that Bron is mid fifties and not mid sixties or mid seventies. Yes. Where the data in it's not as good. Absolutely. It's not as good in the bell curve. of statistics tells you that the data that they do have, which is still limited, currently in Australia, that, you know, may not apply as much to our situation. Yeah. So you sort of hang onto that. But it's, it's freaking scary.

Dr Nat Green:

Absolutely. And I think, you know, if we're gonna be open and honest that if can't not be scary, no. There's this unknown, this huge fear, and you're left thinking, well, what, what's next? What treatment is there? And so much of treatment for multiple myeloma is. Unknown, isn't it?

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. Yes. It's, it's very much there's trials, trial land. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, you're back. So Bron went back into, a world of a lot of chemotherapy. Chemo in the home, our boys experiencing that, at a young age. And, they'd be shitting themselves. Like they literally would be Oh, absolutely know at the time because I was mm-hmm. And I know Bron was, but at the end of the day, like, you're in this together and, that's, you just, what's that saying? You don't know how strong you are until you have no choice. Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. And I think that was very much the motto that we spoke about a lot, wasn't it? That you really don't know how strong you are until that's the only option. You've got no choice. So you keep going and you keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Because as Bron and you have always said Yeah, the alternative is not something you wanna entertain.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. And I really feel for people who don't have, like we, we had and have a, an amazing community around us, people would be ringing up and doing things and I said before that, you feel like being left alone, but of course, you know, you, I I responded to every single message and every single phone call and made phone calls. And then when food started coming by and it's like, oh my God, I gotta get another freezer. Because there's exactly now friends like you guys and, friends of Sharleen's of the world and yeah. Gwenda's of the world and your parents and your family. Like, there's loads of support and I feel for people who don't have that around them, maybe they don't know because they don't, I guess. But I really feel for people who, in two respects that don't have, or aren't able to access information, the way we've been able to access information'cause of the way we've been, I guess. Educated or raised. And I feel for people who don't have, they might be in remote locations or Oh yeah. Who don't have that, the people around them. That's, that, that would be really tough.

Dr Nat Green:

And you know, talking about remote locations, we also need to mention here as well that we are in a regional area,

Mr Paul Watson:

very much regional.

Dr Nat Green:

So the treatment is not always available in regional remote areas. Sometimes you have to go to the bigger cities, which places more pressure. Yeah. Like, I know you've had to do a number of significant trips, particularly, was it last year the, big treatment, the big transplant? Or was it the year before the

Mr Paul Watson:

transplant was, in 2023. Three. Yeah. So we're two years now. Was that was in Sydney? Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. Which means packing up. Life as you know, it being separate from the boys, having to go down there, be isolated because for the treatment that you needed to have, Bron had to be completely isolated and that put a lot of pressure. On a family having to be in different locations, isn't it? Yeah.

Mr Paul Watson:

Best part of a month out of the home. Yeah. Best part of the month, Bron being at, prince of Wales and, I dragged the caravan. Lucky to have a caravan and drag it down to Narrabeen because it was the only place I could get into for that long. Yeah. So, um, that's okay. You do what you do. And, yeah, there's some lonely old nights in the caravan wondering what the heck is going on when there's literally nobody around. Mm. You know, you're getting back late at night and then leaving at half past five the next morning and to get through the traffic to get to whatever, whatever was going on the next day. And, yeah, you whilst very fortunate to be in a caravan, at Narrabeen. Nice place, but it was middle of winter, but you, you got no one around, you know? No, you really pretty much, you know, got through a bit of Candy Crush,

Dr Nat Green:

good old Candy Crush, but the reality was at night. It's a very lonely place. Yeah. And a lot of thinking and overthinking. Yeah. About what was happening. Yeah. And how on earth you were gonna cope. And so just explain, so what Bron actually went through then, and the impact it had on you.

Mr Paul Watson:

Well, prior to the actual physical transplant, there's a series of visits to Prince of Wales where, chemotherapy has been administered to the point where, the bone marrow or this, the blood. Generation system has been depleted. And all that's left is the, baby cells or the, what they call the marrow cells. And so then a centrifuge is, attached to Bron and they, extract as many, baby cells as they possibly can. In her case, I think they extracted was 4.2 million. And they were looking for more than that.

Dr Nat Green:

They wanted more, didn't, because you only

Mr Paul Watson:

get one shot at that process in currently in current treatment. And that was enough, which we, there was some. argy bargy around whether it was enough or not. And we were told that it wasn't enough. That was pretty devastating because you only get one shot and one transplant. But then we got a phone call the next day, thank you universe, that we actually had enough, uh, Broun had enough for, for two transplants. So on the go on the ice, down to a minus 193.7 Celsius to be exact. Wow. And then you come home, they go on ice. You come home for some more chemotherapy and then you go back, and you have a dose of what's called Malforlan. That's when you go down for the month. And the Malforlan is a dose that's administered. It is a timed. Administration of chemo of a, like the mother of all chemos.

Dr Nat Green:

Mm-hmm.

Mr Paul Watson:

And Bron had to, I think she had to take, I think it was like six or seven, icy poles. Mm-hmm. And ice, because the ulceration to your entire gastrointestinal tract. Yeah. It burned, it, didn't it? It burned it so severely that it ulcerated from your mouth to the. Other is, and never the, never, never. But, yeah, so here I am watching all of this thinking normally like, you know, you want to be in control and being able to fix things and you just can't. You just, you are at literally at the mercy of, at these guys and, technology, thank goodness. Mm-hmm. and you know, you're, you're getting phone calls of from, you know, the what I affectionately call the woo woos, which is like, kale smoothies and ground up almond kernels and things. And it's like, you know what? You've got no time for that stuff when you're in the middle of this thing. No. So thank you, for all that information. That's great. And, get on with, what's going on. So Malforlan gets administered, I think it's 20 minutes, prior to, or you get 20 minute gap between the Malforlan and then when the, frozen baby stem cells minus 193.7 they get down, they come down to 37 degrees Celsius. I think it was about three minutes.

Dr Nat Green:

Okay.

Mr Paul Watson:

Um, which was incredible. And then they administer the baby stem cells through the drip 20 minutes after. Mm-hmm. The Malforlan been administered. So the idea is the Malforlan goes through, doesn't take out the baby stem cells, wipes out whatever's ahead of the stem cells coming in. Mm-hmm. And then, and then, all hell breaks loose and it, in terms of the system having to, uh, accept its own stem cells back in again. And that's why you're there for about, about a month in total for that entire process.

Dr Nat Green:

Because basically they kill off Absolutely. All. Yeah. The person's immunity. Everything's gone. Bron had. It killed off everything, like every immunization, everything that she'd ever built up.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yep.

Dr Nat Green:

Immunity to was gone in one go, wasn't

Mr Paul Watson:

it? All vaccines, immunizations from when she was a kid gets wiped out.

Dr Nat Green:

Mm-hmm. And her ability to fight any infection is gone. It's zero. It's gone.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. So you're in, you're pretty, in pretty much like a, quarantine, ward, little

Dr Nat Green:

bubble, wasn't it really? Yeah,

Mr Paul Watson:

almost. Yeah. And yeah, so on. I'll be hung on for, hung on for that ride. Mm-hmm. Boys couldn't come no one could visit. No, except for myself. I had to obviously do all the right things and wear masks and make sure that I wasn't, I wasn't going anywhere either. So,

Dr Nat Green:

and yeah. You were isolated Yeah. To do everything you could to protect Yeah. We were

Mr Paul Watson:

shopping before all that stuff, and it was just me and the van and, Bron.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So. Then, you know, you got through that,

Mr Paul Watson:

got through that, I remember picking up Broun and we had to, went to go back to the caravan and we said, I think we should just go home. So we, I don't know how she did it, but we packed up. We have a bit of a a routine of the inside and the outside crew.

Dr Nat Green:

Yep.

Mr Paul Watson:

Crew. Bronny. Yeah. She was happy to be the inside crew that day and we hooked up and we got home. Didn't tell the boys and Yeah. Walked up on the doorstep and our beautiful friend Susan from Melbourne had been up and Nikki had, done some, bit of change of the guard.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah.

Mr Paul Watson:

And looking after, Ollie and, at that time, Tom to stick him around.

Dr Nat Green:

Mm-hmm.

Mr Paul Watson:

Um, taking care of the guys whilst we were taking care of each other.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. And I think, you've touched on a number of things that are really, really important is. Your relationship. So supporting each other, communicating and being able to talk through the hard stuff. Yeah. And not avoiding those conversations. No,

Mr Paul Watson:

no. Nothing gets left. It's a bit like, you hear of families where kids come along and then when the kids leave, the parents dunno what to do because they No, they've got nothing left. They've given

Dr Nat Green:

everything to the kids they haven't

Mr Paul Watson:

talked for. Yeah. For that, for that long. Whereas we're a bit the opposite. We don't shut up the entire time. And to the point where it's like you yapping

Dr Nat Green:

Uber go away.

Mr Paul Watson:

Uber, yeah. Yapping and, or it's like, Bron, you're yapping. You know, like, can you just shut up for a minute? You know? But, that's all said in some kind of jest. But no, the discussions you need to have those tough discussions, you know? Yeah. Like things like if, what happens if this doesn't go the way we want it to go? What happens? What happens if you know all these, if, and you go through and it's, really important that you have, if you're thinking something, obviously find the right time to, say it, you know, on the right time to say it. Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

So communication and really talking during the relationship. And you also touched on community, so the importance and the power of community is so important. Yeah. And we've, learned that through lots of our guest interviews throughout the year that we've been podcasting. Now that, that's one thing that everyone says is really important.

Mr Paul Watson:

Learn how to accept the help. Yeah,

Dr Nat Green:

definitely.

Mr Paul Watson:

Don't be too, don't be too proud. To accept the help. And it doesn't mean you failed. It means you've actually succeeded because you know, it's that gratitude thing again. You know, some people may not get the chance to help others, and then when they are close to someone, they get the chance to help. It could really help them too. Absolutely. And you're actually helping somebody else by accepting help. That's the key to this stuff. You gotta look for the good things. Mm-hmm. All the way through, not just, not just, you know, coating stuff in sugar, for the sake of coating stuff in sugar, but, you know, and there's no point in dressing up a turd. Love it.

Dr Nat Green:

I Only you would say that on the podcast. I love it.

Mr Paul Watson:

But you know, it's, it really is. If you can find, and when you can find, uh, that what

Dr Nat Green:

laughing only you could say that.

Mr Paul Watson:

Well, you gotta say it how it is. Right. But

Dr Nat Green:

Exactly. And, and

Mr Paul Watson:

that's the key to this stuff, I think is, you know, during breast cancer, I don't think, I was definitely not that great. Accepting help. No. And you burn yourself out by mm-hmm. Thinking you can do it all yourself. And, that's just ridiculous because if you can't be the best version of you, how can you be the best version? For someone else.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah, definitely. If you're not the best version

Mr Paul Watson:

of yourself. For yourself.

Dr Nat Green:

Absolutely. And I think that's a really hard lesson, isn't it, that as people who work in helping professions, like Bron's background is a nurse and you've always been someone who gives to other people, and that's just how, you are and how we are. Yeah. We've

Mr Paul Watson:

done a lot over the years for charities and communities. Mm-hmm. And always somehow doing something for someone where we can,

Dr Nat Green:

but I think that you also have to look after yourself, that there comes a time where often helping professionals. And allied health professionals really gives so much to other people that they forget about themselves. So that's been a big learning, hasn't it, for both of you? Yeah. That you've had to take the time to actually also look after yourselves.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. Yeah. Look, it's something that we talk to our boys about all the time as well, is, that it's not selfish. It's not about being selfish. It's about being aware, of what you might need. It doesn't mean going to the gym necessarily. It might be gym for the brain, you know? Absolutely. It might be just anything. Yeah. Talking to someone, you know? Mm-hmm. If you, if you feel like you need to speak to someone, go and speak to someone. If it's a friend, or if you haven't got a friend, if it's a therapist or whatever it is, don't be too proud to tap into what you might need.

Dr Nat Green:

And I think that that's gold. That's a little gold nugget there that. Don't be too proud. Yeah. It's okay to ask for help. No human beings, were not born to be isolated and do things themselves. Yeah. They like connection. Yeah. It's about connection community. Yeah. So one, other question for you, Paul, is how would you say the overall experience of, all the adversity and trauma you guys have been through, how do you think it's changed your outlook on life, relationships, your values?

Mr Paul Watson:

That's a good question. I've become, I was probably a bit of a people pleaser for a long time.

Dr Nat Green:

Mm-hmm.

Mr Paul Watson:

And that gets you nowhere basically. it's about really, being true to if you've got a value, and that value is, for example, trust or it's mm-hmm. Or it's honesty, or it's, I won't be spoken to in a derogatory manner mm-hmm. By someone who might be a friend, for example, a so called friend, really, it doesn't mean you've gotta go off your brain and tell'em what you think. It's like you just might disassociate yourself or distance yourself and make sure that you're focusing on people around you who do love you. Mm. That's a big one. It's, so, it's, I've been really, I've just distanced myself, diplomatically friendly. Yeah. From people who I believe don't really care or, Mm. Aren't, prepared to share or whatever.

Dr Nat Green:

So really it's, it's put things in perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's very much shown you what's important. What matters.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

And

Mr Paul Watson:

if you wanna go and do something. If you have the means to go do it. Yeah. Do it while you can go and do it. Doesn't mean you've gotta have cancer.

Dr Nat Green:

No.

Mr Paul Watson:

Exactly. Go and do it. I think, not, I think I know that, in terms of really, if you've got the, if you are thinking about what you know, where, sorry, what I'm reason why I'm pausing is because some people think they've gotta have a lot of money or they've gotta have been a certain profession to go and get help.

Dr Nat Green:

Mm-hmm. Right?

Mr Paul Watson:

It's not true.

Dr Nat Green:

No, it's not.

Mr Paul Watson:

And I'm talking about learning if, you have a level of awareness around your emotions, right. I think. Emotions are gonna happen no matter what. And we're all different, right? Mm-hmm. Trauma, which we've been talking about here today. Trauma would be more traumatic for you. May not be as traumatic for me. No, that's And vice versa. Yeah, absolutely. Right. Because of our conditioning and

Dr Nat Green:

our, and life experiences. Life experiences

Mr Paul Watson:

and, and knowledge and that things in practice. But one thing I do know, I, I believe, is that you can't, you can't control emotion, right? Emotions are gonna come. They're gonna, they're gonna come through'cause they've been triggered or they've been whatever they're gonna do. What we can control is our behavior.

Dr Nat Green:

Mm-hmm.

Mr Paul Watson:

And so, and I believe we can control behavior. And one of my favorite things to do is just to, when I, when I've had something hit like an emotional cocktail turn up. Mm-hmm. You know, I like to. Work on. It's a, it's a work in progress every single day of pausing once that hit takes place. Mm. Before I react before I think. Right. That was, that was a decent hit. You know? Mm. Sometimes you, sometimes it's too late. You just go that and you, you, you break down or you, you fire up or you, you whatever. If, and I believe if you can, just have the time, give yourself that minute, it might feel like an hour, but it might only be 30 seconds or 10 seconds might feel like an hour. So that pause and that acknowledging your emotions. Pause. Pause and go. Right. How now how do I want to behave? Yeah. And I think that is like a self-regulation. And it is a really good tool to. In my personal tool belt just to help stop those massive peaks and troughs and just try and get some sort of, mediocre, emotional, behavioral thing going on so I can at least handle Yeah. What's coming my way.'cause you know, when you've got five boys and a bunch of friends and you got your parents go aging parents and aging friends and the stuff that, it's just, it's life, doing life. Yeah. So it doesn't have to be triggered by this sort of stuff. No. When this stuff comes along though, it ramps up that volume. Absolutely.

Dr Nat Green:

And it's about, no one can ever be prepared. Certainly not for a breast cancer and then a multiple myeloma diagnosis, but it's around looking at, okay, what can I control?

Mr Paul Watson:

And don't be afraid to cry. Like, if you wanna have a cry, have a cry. That's okay. It

Dr Nat Green:

is. I love that you shared that very openly because that, that's the reality. I've, I've

Mr Paul Watson:

had some big cries. I've had some big, oh my God, look at what, I never, really asked a question why?'cause none of us know why. But that's a, that's not a silly question, but it's a, it's a very good question. But I don't give it, any time. But yeah, mate, when that, when some of those things hit, it's like, let it out.

Dr Nat Green:

Mm. I love that so much.

Mr Paul Watson:

It takes a while. Takes a while. Exactly. That's, that's fine.

Dr Nat Green:

And if you go, quiet for a few days or a week Yeah. That might be the time that you've taken

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

To let those emotions process

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

To that. It's like these little layers of an onion and you never know when the next layer's ready to peel back, do you?

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. No you don't. That's it.

Dr Nat Green:

So if you look back at all the things that you've learned over these. You know, through your whole life because, life happens and there's been ups and downs throughout, but particularly with things that have gone on for Bron and the boys. Mm-hmm. What would you say some of the key attributes or personality traits, or anything that you think have helped you get through from trauma into posttraumatic growth and a level of coping that you're at now?

Mr Paul Watson:

Hmm. Um, wow. That's a, that's a really complex question in a lot of ways. If you, think about it, there's attributes that. You have or strengths you have naturally. Yep. Right. And everyone's got their own strengths and mm-hmm. And I think, Linda will love me saying this, but I think, and, everyone's got their own and, they need to be lent into because they're all cool in their own way. I probably go back to, being willing to learn more about myself, and being open to, sometimes it's, it's criticism, and it might be dealt in a really bad way. Mm-hmm. But sometimes there's some truth in that too. Yeah. Right. And you take little snippets of life mm-hmm. Of things that you've learned and go, well, I'll use that and I'll use that and I'll use that. And that's what I do. Yeah. I don't think it's about resilience. I think that's a bit of an over overused. Term. And, geez, you're so strong. Like, well, I don't know what that means

Dr Nat Green:

because, well, you, you feel like you haven't got a choice. It's either be strong, it's, and I say, and

Mr Paul Watson:

I've had mates say to me, good mates, and I respect them for it, saying, I would not like to be in your situation. I'm, I much prefer my situation right now. Mm-hmm. And so I think by way of attributes to cope, everyone's got their own ways to cope. I probably, no, I probably, I definitely relied on alcohol too much. Mm-hmm. That was something that I lent on. Okay. It wasn't like binging to the point where I was blind every night. No. But I certainly, I. Drank too much alcohol.

Dr Nat Green:

Mm-hmm. And that was to manage the stress of everything. That's because

Mr Paul Watson:

I felt that I needed it. Mm. You know, by the way, it tastes great. But, no def all jokes aside, that was something that I, looking back, I I would love to not have the time again, but if I did have that time again, I would love to see how I would've done without that, you know? Okay. Like, I probably have a clearer head and mm-hmm. Would I have said things differently? I don't know. I could still drive a car every morning, but I could. I have driven a car every night.

Dr Nat Green:

No,

Mr Paul Watson:

probably not.

Dr Nat Green:

But again, that's a learning that as you look back, you can go, yeah. Okay.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

I may have done that differently, but again, self-development and that being prepared to learn everything you can to be the best version of you. Yeah. To help. Bron the boys, but also to help you Correct. Navigate a really challenging, shitty path. Let's be honest. Yeah.

Mr Paul Watson:

I think you sort of, I don't know if the truth is, I, think for me, you could use it as an excuse. Oh, I have a drink'cause I'm stressed out. Mm-hmm. Like, it's so easy to say that, people go, oh, well I, I'd be drinking the whole bottle, not two glasses. You think, oh, there's, there you go.

Dr Nat Green:

that's my tick of approval.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. Yeah. tick of permission.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. So now I know that there's still a path ahead and you're navigating that as best you can, but I also know that you've made some big decisions around. Going on family trips and making the most of things while ever you can and living life to the full every day. Having, that's been something that's a very conscious decision for you guys.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's if you think you can do it, and if you think you want to go and do it, my recommendation is go and do it. Like, just go. If you wanna go around Australia and put your stuff into storage and lease your property out, or cancel your lease, or if you've got skill sets and you've got trades or you can work the way around the country, you just gotta jump on some of those Facebook groups. And I know people who are living in Cairns right now, who he tiled his way around and then learnt other skill sets and tiled his way. And I think, his partner is a bookkeeper or accountant and she got jobs here or there, these days since the pandemic, you know? Mm-hmm. People can work from, sometimes people can't. I get that. Yeah. But at the end of the day, if you think you wanna go and do something, whether it's changing a job, whether it's telling your boss to go and get, and, you know, changing jobs, go and do it. So

Dr Nat Green:

that's the one of the biggest lessons in this has been, go and do it. Do. Whatever you wanna do, go and do it now while you can go and do it. Yeah. Make the most of it.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

What's Bron's mug say?

Mr Paul Watson:

Make everyday count.

Dr Nat Green:

Absolutely. And I think that is something that will always stick in my mind. I've always loved it when she said that. Make everyday count,

Mr Paul Watson:

make everyday count. Make every moment count.

Dr Nat Green:

Absolutely. So, I'd love for you, Paul, to let us know,'cause you've got some pretty exciting things that you and Bron have got in the pipeline right now.

Mr Paul Watson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr Nat Green:

What are you working on right now and where could our listeners find out a bit more?

Mr Paul Watson:

Well, if there's a, so out of all of this, as a carer, you're sitting by. Watching a lot, and even the doctors and the specialists, when you pipe up in the meeting, it's like, well, you're not my patient. That's my patient over there. And it's, they do tend to, until you sort of might build a bit of relationship with someone, but they still tend to listen to the patient. Even though I believe we are all like we're the patient. Yeah. You're the

Dr Nat Green:

patients. You're the

Mr Paul Watson:

patients because absolutely. You, I can guarantee you right now, your partner who might be go, or friend, whoever it is that you are helping in this situations might be going through when you are in that room, listening to that specialist at any time, I can guarantee you're not gonna hear everything Absolutely. Unless you record the whole thing. And I doubt that would be allowed, so I'm the eyes and ears as well as Bron in our situation. So when you are in the little room, after being told the news of, in this case, two lots of, cancers, one curable, one incurable, and you're looking around and all you're seeing is like typical, new South Wales government issued furniture. There might be a picture of a tree on the wall, or a print. there's a cabinet full of red books, which is what you get given, that talks about all of your treatment and mm-hmm. You know, reporting and all the stuff and the things. It'd be great if there was another set of books in there, like Little Pink Books or Blue Books or some different color that says that it doesn't just have to be this red book. And so Bron's got this, she calls it a movement, I think I call it a movement as well, where it would be really cool to be able to, it's called the Serenity Project.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. I love this so much. So tell us about the Serenity Project. Well, my,

Mr Paul Watson:

my take on the Serenity Project is a bit about what I've been talking about today is, that you don't, whilst you're, whilst you're in a system and you, in an ideal world, it'd be like, look, we found this cancer and we're gonna. Park it for a bit. It's not gonna go away, but we're gonna park it and we're gonna give you a choice. And your choice is, you can do a number of things. You know, you can go through chemo, you can go through radio, you can go have a mastectomy, you can go through a bone marrow transplant, and we're also gonna give you some time to, drink some kale smoothies and do some meditating and, and, crush up the almond kernels and go to Tibet and bang the gong. And, unfortunately you don't get that time. No, you don't get those choices. But what would be really cool would be, the young woman or the young man that comes in

Dr Nat Green:

who

Mr Paul Watson:

from New South Wales, government, health from health, who's probably second or third year out and they're looking at their textbook thinking, how the hell am I gonna handle this? 54-year-old, 53-year-old emotional woman who's been given an incurable cancer diagnosis. And all they're waiting on is, okay, she said this, I'm gonna say this next, how it feels.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah.

Mr Paul Watson:

No disrespect to any of those people. No. That'd be a tough gig.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, absolutely. Giving someone that news, but imagine

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. They

Dr Nat Green:

switch off their emotions. And you said that emotional intelligence textbook isn't always there, but it's what they have to do to protect themselves. And they're, in their mid twenties. Talking to

Mr Paul Watson:

a mature woman or a mature man who's got a lot of life experience and children and it'd be great to have the Red book and another book and saying, this is not about a book about cure. This is a book about healing. And, you can heal in many ways, even while God forbid you're dying. Mm-hmm. But we're all dying. Yeah. Really. Absolutely. But so healing is, around, it's not necessarily acceptance, but it's, finding that level of peace amongst the craziness, the chaos and the chaos Yeah. Of what's going on. So that, it's that being able to remain calm, in this case, the chaos of cancer. So, yeah. So it's that calm after cancer, isn't

Dr Nat Green:

it? If

Mr Paul Watson:

you can, yeah. If you can know that there's something coming up and not getting caught, not what we call crossing the bridge before you have to mm-hmm. Like that, bridge, we dunno what's on the other side.

Dr Nat Green:

No.

Mr Paul Watson:

You know, so why would you cross it until you have to Mm. From an emotional perspective, from a curing, from a treatment, from a healing perspective.

Dr Nat Green:

And it's so powerful, isn't it? When you say the word healing, like you said, it's not about. I'm gonna go and try this miracle thing.'cause I have to have a cure to feel healed. It's about healing emotionally. Yeah. And healing the pain so you can make everyday count. Yeah. So that you can find that level of serenity.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

That's what the Serenity Project is, isn't it? So it's all

Mr Paul Watson:

about, it's just wherever you are and whatever's going on, being at piece around where you are in the middle of what's going on. It's not meditating, it's not finding my chakras. And those things are all cool. Like, like whatever works for, I've done a bunch of that stuff and it's, it was at the time, it was fantastic. It's about just allowing yourself to, to be. At peace. Peace and being, yeah. Some people call it, there's mindfulness, there's being present. It's, more than that. It's, that as well.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's

Mr Paul Watson:

an interesting thing

Dr Nat Green:

and I think, driving a project like that and spreading that around the world is an amazing legacy to leave, whether it's 10 years by one, 20 years, 50 years down the track, it doesn't matter.

Mr Paul Watson:

I think, and not everybody's gonna get it, you know?

Dr Nat Green:

No.

Mr Paul Watson:

Which is, which is okay. What would be, it's, it's, I think it's about having the awareness or being aware to have the awareness. Yeah. That, that would be, imagine that

Dr Nat Green:

that'd be cool.

Mr Paul Watson:

How

Dr Nat Green:

cool is that? Yeah. I mean this, it's absolutely a movement.

Mr Paul Watson:

Mm-hmm.

Dr Nat Green:

And it's about that ripple effect, that power that the Serenity Project can have. So I'm really excited for, for what lies ahead as you start to roll this out. And I'm gonna put that link in the show notes for the listeners because we would absolutely love to have you on board for the Serenity Project, which is launching soon. And that'll be in the show notes and updated as soon as everything becomes available.

Mr Paul Watson:

Yeah. Well, I'll be in the background supporting Bron. Yeah, you'll be as you as

Dr Nat Green:

you always are. Yeah.

Mr Paul Watson:

That's it.

Dr Nat Green:

And you know, thank you so much

Mr Paul Watson:

it's been been good, they're really good, really good questions to be asked. And and thank you. Thanks for being here.

Dr Nat Green:

Thanks. We love you Paulie you know that we love you guys so much. And honestly, this is about getting raw, real and vulnerable and really highlighting how important. The people behind the scenes doing all the caring and really carrying the load, making sure that they're seen and heard as well. So thank you. I really appreciate it. You're

Mr Paul Watson:

welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks guys. Bye for

Dr Nat Green:

now. Thank you for joining me in this episode of Growing Tall Poppies. It is my deepest hope that today's episode may have inspired and empowered you to step fully into your post-traumatic growth, so that you can have absolute clarity around who you are, what matters the most to you, and to assist you to release your negative emotions. And regulate your nervous system so you can fully thrive. New episodes are published every Tuesday, and I hope you'll continue to join us as we explore both the strategies and the personal qualities required to fully live a life of post-traumatic growth and to thrive. So if it feels aligned to you and really resonates. Then I invite you to hit Subscribe and it would mean the world to us if you could share this episode with others who you feel may benefit too. You may also find me on Instagram at Growing Tall Poppies and Facebook, Dr. Natalie Green. Remember, every moment is an opportunity to look for the lessons. And to learn and increase your ability to live the life you desire and deserve. So for now, stay connected. Stay inspired. Stand tall like the tall poppy you are, and keep shining your light brightly in the world. Bye for now.

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