0:00:02.966,0:00:04.433
I mean the game is an amateur
0:00:04.433,0:00:06.033
game I mean the professional
0:00:06.033,0:00:09.033
side of it you know there are idols and heroes and
0:00:09.033,0:00:11.466
fun to watch them play but I mean if it weren't for amateur
0:00:11.466,0:00:12.866
golf there would be no golf
0:00:15.133,0:00:16.633
you have to remember when you play a golf
0:00:16.633,0:00:19.400
course and you're out there for four hours or whatever
0:00:19.466,0:00:20.366
you're only hitting the
0:00:20.366,0:00:21.966
you're only hitting a ball for what 15
0:00:21.966,0:00:24.566
minutes of that so there's a lot of time to look around
0:00:27.666,0:00:29.266
I'm Paul Jansen uh
0:00:29.466,0:00:32.400
I'm one of the founding members of Himalayas Golf
0:00:32.533,0:00:35.333
uh my background is in golf course architecture
0:00:35.833,0:00:39.033
our company does just that we're design and build golf
0:00:39.033,0:00:42.333
spaces I mean we work on big and small although um
0:00:43.233,0:00:43.733
uh
0:00:43.733,0:00:46.366
you know a high percentage of our work is really in the
0:00:46.366,0:00:47.733
small spaces golf
0:00:47.833,0:00:50.933
indoor and outdoor using grass and artificial turf
0:00:51.566,0:00:52.866
and I've been in the big business
0:00:52.866,0:00:55.566
now for wow almost 25 years um
0:00:55.666,0:00:57.533
interestingly I was reading quite a bit about
0:00:57.533,0:01:00.100
I've obviously had to do a bit of research and
0:01:00.100,0:01:02.466
it's great to have you on to start off with and thank you
0:01:02.466,0:01:04.466
and when did you make the pivot
0:01:04.466,0:01:06.633
to start doing smaller form stuff
0:01:07.300,0:01:10.966
that was when I met Dave Pals so I met Dave Pals
0:01:12.033,0:01:14.433
back in about 2016 2017
0:01:14.433,0:01:18.133
so one of my founding members James Wayne McDonald um
0:01:18.866,0:01:21.233
who's based out on the on the west coast uh
0:01:21.233,0:01:23.866
Wayne Wayne played professional golf uh
0:01:24.433,0:01:27.233
and he was good friends with Dave Pelz David Ledbetter
0:01:27.233,0:01:31.933
uh a few of the golfers and um and
0:01:32.466,0:01:34.633
I'm guessing you know I'd I've been
0:01:34.633,0:01:37.866
speaking with Wayne for some time about my travels
0:01:37.866,0:01:40.133
to Asia I was doing quite a bit of stuff for
0:01:40.133,0:01:42.266
art in Asia you know um
0:01:42.666,0:01:45.766
from around about oh gosh around about 2 thousand
0:01:45.766,0:01:47.766
eight till about 2,015
0:01:48.333,0:01:49.933
um and he said
0:01:49.933,0:01:52.700
um hey why don't you pop up down to Austin Texas
0:01:52.700,0:01:54.300
or at least Dripping Springs
0:01:54.300,0:01:56.666
which is about an hour outside of Austin
0:01:56.666,0:01:59.166
where Dave had just built this uh this um
0:02:00.533,0:02:05.066
backyard space on about 3 acres um and
0:02:05.066,0:02:07.633
yeah I would say pop pop down there flew flew down met
0:02:07.633,0:02:09.200
a Dave met his son Eddie Phelps
0:02:09.366,0:02:13.166
who works with us now and his wife JP and uh
0:02:13.166,0:02:14.166
began to you know
0:02:14.166,0:02:17.033
speak speak about this this this space where he had
0:02:17.166,0:02:19.700
seven or eight greens he had seven or eight holes
0:02:19.700,0:02:22.033
and he had all this all this practice
0:02:22.300,0:02:25.133
combined into the space he had lag putting zones
0:02:25.133,0:02:28.666
and he had 1 2 3% putting zone he had wedge targets
0:02:28.833,0:02:30.233
it was very very much practice
0:02:30.233,0:02:32.600
driven and that's where he would bring all of his
0:02:32.766,0:02:35.800
all of his students Phil Mickelson and Patrick Reed and
0:02:36.233,0:02:38.233
uh you know Tom Kite
0:02:38.366,0:02:41.600
uh the whole nine nine yards uh to very cool practice
0:02:41.966,0:02:43.900
and it was all in our artificial turf
0:02:43.900,0:02:45.833
and I thought wow I mean this is
0:02:45.866,0:02:47.566
you know there's a lot of potential here
0:02:48.033,0:02:52.033
and that was kind of the aha moment for me and
0:02:52.033,0:02:53.100
yeah so we began
0:02:53.100,0:02:55.766
speaking and you know developing a plan and
0:02:55.766,0:02:58.866
I guess you know through day poles and through
0:02:58.866,0:03:01.733
Wayne you know we had some some good business people
0:03:02.366,0:03:03.066
you know kind of
0:03:03.066,0:03:06.133
backing us and we create a pal's player greens and
0:03:06.133,0:03:09.500
it's kind of grown from there so yeah you know almost
0:03:09.500,0:03:11.466
almost 10 years ago you know we had that covid
0:03:11.466,0:03:13.066
period where you know
0:03:13.133,0:03:15.366
where it was somewhat quiet but um
0:03:15.433,0:03:18.233
yeah it's been incredibly busy for us
0:03:18.333,0:03:19.266
you know since then
0:03:19.933,0:03:21.166
why did um
0:03:21.900,0:03:24.366
why did they take the pros down there
0:03:24.633,0:03:25.933
what was the reasoning
0:03:26.033,0:03:29.366
to use well I mean Dave you know yeah well I mean Dave
0:03:29.466,0:03:31.533
was a few few reasons um
0:03:32.433,0:03:36.466
I think uh golf courses and golf clubs didn't have
0:03:36.900,0:03:39.133
uh you know really good practice spaces
0:03:39.366,0:03:42.166
for Dave to to practice certain shots
0:03:42.633,0:03:47.333
um so that was one of them uh I guess if you take Phil
0:03:47.333,0:03:50.066
Mickelson or Patrick Reed down to the local club
0:03:50.066,0:03:53.500
you know there's gonna be a lot of people um you know
0:03:53.500,0:03:55.966
inserting them and you know asking them questions
0:03:55.966,0:03:58.433
and and what not two of the best wedge players ever
0:03:58.433,0:03:59.933
yeah um
0:04:00.333,0:04:03.233
you know um I know I know Dave
0:04:03.300,0:04:06.766
Dave said said to me at at the get go he said that
0:04:06.933,0:04:09.500
you know all these golf clubs spend so much money on practice
0:04:09.500,0:04:11.066
spaces but
0:04:11.066,0:04:12.866
you know they're not they're not really designed
0:04:12.866,0:04:14.366
for practice you know you you
0:04:14.366,0:04:16.933
you walk on them and you don't even know how to practice
0:04:17.300,0:04:20.033
so he said he would rather create a space
0:04:20.033,0:04:24.966
where he could practice certain shots um and um
0:04:24.966,0:04:27.266
you know and he could do it in his bloody bathrobe
0:04:27.366,0:04:28.166
really
0:04:28.233,0:04:31.000
um so that's what would uh you know what would he do
0:04:31.333,0:04:35.166
and I mean in his space uh like like I said uh
0:04:35.166,0:04:37.666
you know
roughly about three acres he said that you could
0:04:37.666,0:04:39.533
practice just about every shot within
0:04:39.900,0:04:43.066
100 yards which is what you can do
0:04:43.633,0:04:44.766
um I mean Dave was a NASA
0:04:44.766,0:04:49.033
scientist before he was a golf pro smart guy and um
0:04:49.766,0:04:51.433
and he had worked with
0:04:51.700,0:04:53.966
with a number of the turf manufacturers
0:04:53.966,0:04:56.066
because the whole space is an artificial turf
0:04:56.066,0:04:57.533
he had worked with a number of the turf
0:04:57.533,0:04:59.466
manufacturers to create
0:05:00.233,0:05:04.133
um turf that was the most realistic um so he you know
0:05:04.133,0:05:06.600
spent time and was a money on that and then
0:05:07.033,0:05:10.733
with a son and some local guys uh who work for us uh
0:05:10.733,0:05:11.933
down uh in Austin
0:05:11.933,0:05:12.733
yeah they would just spent
0:05:12.733,0:05:16.566
about 2 2 years building the backyard and um and like
0:05:16.566,0:05:17.233
like I said you know
0:05:17.233,0:05:19.466
kind of really built for practice so
0:05:19.466,0:05:21.233
you might look at it from a classic
0:05:21.233,0:05:22.233
perspective and go like
0:05:22.233,0:05:24.833
shit that's something out of Star Wars but it's very
0:05:24.833,0:05:25.866
very much you know a space
0:05:25.866,0:05:28.300
where you can take your pros and you can
0:05:28.300,0:05:30.066
you know you know play and
0:05:30.133,0:05:33.600
and I guess train certain shots and what uh
0:05:34.433,0:05:37.166
you've done a lot of research on
0:05:38.100,0:05:39.200
artificial turf
0:05:39.966,0:05:40.500
am I right in
0:05:40.500,0:05:42.633
saying you've got a book out I've not read your book
0:05:42.766,0:05:44.333
no the no
0:05:44.933,0:05:45.700
uh yes no
0:05:45.700,0:05:48.333
to be honest I do so I so I wrote wrote a book with
0:05:48.333,0:05:50.933
uh Sinclair which are one of the biggest 4th
0:05:51.100,0:05:52.400
manufacturers
0:05:52.966,0:05:56.266
uh around and in fact they're the guys who did the TGL
0:05:56.266,0:05:58.300
so at least at least you know kind of supply
0:05:58.300,0:06:00.466
the turf for for that so OK wow
0:06:00.500,0:06:02.666
OK so you really are one of the world's
0:06:02.766,0:06:04.666
foremost specialists on this subject
0:06:04.666,0:06:06.533
just so everyone knows well you know I I
0:06:06.633,0:06:08.066
I got got lucky James
0:06:08.066,0:06:09.766
because when I met Dave Pals
0:06:09.766,0:06:11.866
he had already done a lot of research so
0:06:11.866,0:06:14.266
he put me in touch with all the the big players
0:06:14.633,0:06:16.033
so I was then dealing with
0:06:16.033,0:06:18.900
with with not not the guys at at the low level I was
0:06:18.900,0:06:21.966
dealing with their you know R&D teams with their CEOs
0:06:21.966,0:06:23.166
with their you know
0:06:24.066,0:06:26.366
you know so I got to learn a lot quick quickly
0:06:26.366,0:06:28.300
what's the biggest mistakes that people make
0:06:28.300,0:06:32.133
with Astro astro turf so astro turf what was the first
0:06:32.300,0:06:34.633
artificial turf that that went down in
0:06:35.066,0:06:38.133
the Houston Astrodome whatever it was 50
0:06:38.133,0:06:42.166
years ago so it's come a long way since then um
0:06:42.566,0:06:45.833
well well cheapest so what are the I guess
0:06:48.166,0:06:49.833
you know I think think
0:06:49.833,0:06:52.533
people have a negative perception of artificial turf
0:06:52.533,0:06:53.800
based on what they see
0:06:53.833,0:06:55.433
and there's not a lot of good good
0:06:55.433,0:06:58.733
examples out there to be honest although that's now
0:06:58.866,0:07:00.566
improving with with some of the
0:07:00.566,0:07:03.000
spaces that we're doing and some of the spaces
0:07:03.033,0:07:05.966
that others are doing but really you know
0:07:05.966,0:07:08.933
the quality of some of the turf now nylon turf
0:07:09.233,0:07:12.300
uh is uh um is really really good and strong
0:07:12.300,0:07:14.566
I mean you know so you know so so good that Phil
0:07:14.566,0:07:17.533
Mickelson Nick Faldo yeah Patrick Reid
0:07:17.533,0:07:19.966
would want to build in their own back backyards um
0:07:20.166,0:07:20.966
you know so
0:07:21.933,0:07:23.333
Rory too yeah
0:07:23.333,0:07:27.633
uh you know so it can be incredibly realistic um
0:07:27.833,0:07:30.100
I think think one of the the issues is
0:07:30.100,0:07:32.500
uh and I'm not gonna tap myself and my team
0:07:32.500,0:07:34.266
and this was one of the things that we identified
0:07:34.266,0:07:37.300
early on James is that a lot of these
0:07:37.300,0:07:39.533
spaces were being built by non golf people
0:07:39.733,0:07:42.833
so you had landscape people and you had just Joe blogs
0:07:42.933,0:07:43.266
thinking
0:07:43.266,0:07:45.633
hey I can just stick something in my back backyard
0:07:45.966,0:07:49.033
uh and and that's where we came in and said well
0:07:49.233,0:07:52.833
we can design a space so we know how to design golf
0:07:53.100,0:07:55.266
yes grass greens and there is a difference
0:07:55.733,0:07:56.866
but in fact when you but
0:07:56.866,0:07:58.166
but in fact with artificial turf
0:07:58.166,0:07:59.633
you can do a lot more than with grass
0:07:59.633,0:08:01.500
cause you're not worried about mowing machines
0:08:01.500,0:08:02.966
and you're not worried about wear and tear
0:08:02.966,0:08:05.233
and you're not worried about entry exit points and
0:08:05.333,0:08:06.933
you know stuff like like that so your greens
0:08:06.933,0:08:09.266
can be smaller too and you can create as much cool
0:08:09.266,0:08:09.700
stuff
0:08:09.700,0:08:12.166
as any normal green as any green that you'd see in
0:08:12.233,0:08:14.466
in Baddesley Andrews um
0:08:14.466,0:08:17.300
and then you know and then we have a team of guys who built
0:08:17.300,0:08:19.200
golf so you know
0:08:19.866,0:08:24.233
building artificial turf spaces is is probably a bit
0:08:24.233,0:08:25.866
bit easier than building grass spaces
0:08:25.866,0:08:26.900
cause there's not as many moving
0:08:26.900,0:08:30.000
parts so when you think about you know doing a
0:08:30.100,0:08:32.133
just say a USGA green
0:08:32.133,0:08:34.066
spec I mean you know there's a lot of moving parts
0:08:34.066,0:08:37.433
there irrigation drainage gravel as root boots on sand
0:08:37.433,0:08:40.033
you know I mean you know you need a lot of smart folk
0:08:40.500,0:08:42.033
a lot of guys like not feel yourself
0:08:42.033,0:08:45.100
there and I I guess I guess when you're building
0:08:45.100,0:08:48.133
our artificial turf there's there's less layers um
0:08:48.433,0:08:52.733
and so yes so you know so the turf was important
0:08:52.766,0:08:55.066
so you know the the the R&D
0:08:55.066,0:08:56.966
that that's been done on on on that's been
0:08:56.966,0:08:58.266
you know really really strong
0:08:58.833,0:09:01.566
you know and these artificial turf manufacturing
0:09:01.566,0:09:03.533
companies now I mean they're doing
0:09:03.533,0:09:05.133
doing quite quite well so they're spending
0:09:05.133,0:09:07.566
quite a bit of money on on on this stuff and you know
0:09:07.566,0:09:08.633
they're obviously seeing through
0:09:08.633,0:09:11.300
stuff like the TGL and stuff that we're doing and
0:09:11.300,0:09:13.666
and what not that you know that there's a real demand
0:09:13.666,0:09:15.966
for for this so you know they're willing to spend
0:09:15.966,0:09:19.066
you know kind of money making it look like like real so
0:09:19.066,0:09:20.633
I guess it's going going back to
0:09:20.633,0:09:23.000
to your question I think people see driving
0:09:23.266,0:09:25.666
bay mats and they see you know
0:09:25.700,0:09:28.466
John Smith's backyard and they think wow it's actually
0:09:28.500,0:09:30.466
pretty crap but in fact
0:09:30.466,0:09:33.300
you know there is potential to do something that is not
0:09:33.300,0:09:35.633
crap and is actually really strong um
0:09:35.733,0:09:37.166
it just needs the right turf
0:09:37.166,0:09:38.433
it just needs the right people
0:09:38.433,0:09:43.500
designing and building it um uh yeah you know and then
0:09:43.500,0:09:45.533
I guess guess the the the realism
0:09:45.533,0:09:47.866
I mean one of the the biggest issues has always been
0:09:47.866,0:09:49.533
the realism of the bounce
0:09:50.300,0:09:54.966
um and again Dave Pal spent a lot of time
0:09:55.066,0:09:57.833
doing research and doing a lot of testing on this
0:09:57.833,0:09:59.366
and he came came up with his
0:09:59.366,0:10:01.233
with his patented shot stopper
0:10:01.233,0:10:03.433
that we use which is you know
0:10:03.666,0:10:06.566
I guess similar to building a USGA green it's
0:10:06.600,0:10:08.733
you know an underlayment system that goes underneath
0:10:08.733,0:10:12.066
the turf which is a mix of foam silica sand rubber mix
0:10:12.166,0:10:14.266
that gets what's it compacted in there and then
0:10:14.266,0:10:15.433
the actual turf itself
0:10:15.433,0:10:17.633
has like a rubber embossed back backing
0:10:17.633,0:10:20.100
and that sits on top and then you have sand
0:10:20.100,0:10:23.166
on top so it it it really is very very receptive
0:10:23.166,0:10:24.333
and you know and I'm and I'm
0:10:24.333,0:10:26.766
probably getting a bit more technical here but
0:10:26.766,0:10:28.366
you know I think think
0:10:28.700,0:10:31.133
you know they've answered a lot of the the
0:10:31.233,0:10:35.133
the issues with with these spaces uh in in the past
0:10:35.133,0:10:37.266
what do you think is the biggest difficulty then now
0:10:37.933,0:10:41.833
well the the the sale uh to uh towards the golf clubs
0:10:41.833,0:10:44.366
uh you know because of the the the negative
0:10:44.600,0:10:47.866
perception um I think you know I mean
0:10:47.900,0:10:50.133
environmentally it's strong in
0:10:50.133,0:10:53.566
terms of the the limited input but you know um
0:10:53.900,0:10:56.966
I guess down down the line you know
0:10:57.100,0:11:00.533
if you do replace it you know there is the wastage
0:11:00.833,0:11:02.066
there um
0:11:03.533,0:11:04.933
you know it's never gonna be
0:11:04.933,0:11:06.966
100% like like a grass green
0:11:07.100,0:11:10.233
you know it might be 95% um
0:11:10.633,0:11:12.966
you know or even even 97% but it's
0:11:12.966,0:11:16.200
never gonna be exactly like like a grass green um
0:11:16.533,0:11:17.666
so that you know
0:11:17.666,0:11:20.800
that would be be one I guess guess the cost
0:11:20.966,0:11:22.800
you know the initial cost
0:11:23.100,0:11:25.833
is probably a bit more than that well it isn't
0:11:26.433,0:11:27.233
it certainly is a bit
0:11:27.233,0:11:29.233
bit more than the cost of a grass
0:11:29.233,0:11:31.966
green but of course you know the the
0:11:31.966,0:11:34.666
intersection of you know the cost to maintain a grass
0:11:34.666,0:11:38.100
green I mean if you look at a a standard USGA green
0:11:38.100,0:11:39.500
you know cool season warm season
0:11:39.500,0:11:41.066
you're probably looking at about two bucks a square
0:11:41.066,0:11:43.966
foot so you know thousands of bucks or at least
0:11:43.966,0:11:45.266
hundreds of thousands of bucks
0:11:45.266,0:11:46.866
a year spent on was it maintaining
0:11:46.866,0:11:49.333
just greens whereas with an artificial turf green
0:11:49.433,0:11:50.066
the cost is
0:11:50.066,0:11:53.033
is a lot less you know there is still maintenance um
0:11:53.033,0:11:57.566
but but your initial outlay cost is a bit bit more um
0:11:58.466,0:12:00.800
so that would probably probably be the things
0:12:00.900,0:12:04.166
that that that we would witness is being the
0:12:05.133,0:12:05.700
biggest how
0:12:05.700,0:12:07.766
fascinating I I'm sorry it's we've fallen
0:12:07.766,0:12:10.066
into a hole that I didn't expect to fall into
0:12:10.066,0:12:12.133
but it really is amazing because
0:12:12.133,0:12:14.033
there's a lot of things going on in the world of golf
0:12:14.033,0:12:14.833
but
0:12:15.333,0:12:19.766
this is something that is I would say fairly new and
0:12:20.933,0:12:23.800
it's like um how to describe it
0:12:23.833,0:12:26.366
the take off of the internet by the older
0:12:26.366,0:12:29.433
crowd you know it's like it's like when
0:12:29.733,0:12:31.433
I was gonna say it's like when San Hills
0:12:31.433,0:12:34.133
came came online what the hell or it's like when uh
0:12:34.266,0:12:35.933
you know that is
0:12:35.933,0:12:37.333
Andrew's came online I don't know
0:12:37.333,0:12:40.333
I mean I'm just saying but yes I mean you know you know there is a lot of
0:12:40.633,0:12:43.100
uh probably 99 point well
0:12:43.100,0:12:46.866
probably 99% of people don't actually know what was going on there you know it's
0:12:46.866,0:12:47.433
it's probably much
0:12:47.433,0:12:50.066
much like the the things going on at Tesla and
0:12:50.066,0:12:51.733
at Google you know there's probably
0:12:51.733,0:12:53.966
a lot of things or you know there behind the scenes
0:12:53.966,0:12:56.833
that I mean they're probably leaps and bounds ahead
0:12:56.966,0:12:59.500
and uh in terms of you know the artificial turf
0:12:59.500,0:13:00.900
space and that yeah it's
0:13:00.900,0:13:02.466
it's certainly come come a long way
0:13:02.466,0:13:04.533
within the space of time that I've been
0:13:04.733,0:13:06.766
been involved in this it's
0:13:06.766,0:13:09.133
my mum doesn't trust electrical car electric cars
0:13:09.133,0:13:10.733
she refuses to get electric car
0:13:10.733,0:13:13.533
she just wants a combustion engine and that's her
0:13:13.533,0:13:14.133
and it's fair
0:13:14.133,0:13:17.933
enough like it's what I know she doesn't have to worry about what's gonna happen in
0:13:18.900,0:13:22.433
yeah like whatever years she's um and probably
0:13:22.566,0:13:25.200
by the time yeah she's just quite content with her
0:13:25.500,0:13:28.233
she still recycles she does all the positives
0:13:28.266,0:13:31.766
you know but it's just she trusts in a combustion car
0:13:31.933,0:13:34.100
but you know one what's a thing thing that so
0:13:34.100,0:13:36.033
you know sorry and I'm and I'm no I'm not
0:13:36.033,0:13:37.633
speak speak a lot here but I think
0:13:37.633,0:13:40.400
think the one cool thing that artificial turf has done
0:13:40.500,0:13:43.733
is it's it's kind of grown the the game in many ways
0:13:43.733,0:13:46.533
you know before you couldn't have an indoor space
0:13:46.933,0:13:49.766
you know uh and before you couldn't stick
0:13:49.766,0:13:52.033
something in a bloody shop and says enter somewhere
0:13:52.033,0:13:54.066
you know um and do you think
0:13:54.066,0:13:56.366
you know I just think think about here in Canada
0:13:56.500,0:13:59.633
where I am right now you know we have uh an office here
0:13:59.766,0:14:03.200
um and I'm here for for the next few few weeks but
0:14:03.300,0:14:05.700
you know probably probably 20 year years
0:14:05.700,0:14:08.300
ago you could only play golf for six or seven
0:14:08.300,0:14:10.900
months of the year and now there's all these spaces
0:14:10.900,0:14:12.433
where you can go and bloody play golf
0:14:12.433,0:14:16.600
12 months of the year so do you think the R&D into um
0:14:16.900,0:14:21.400
Astroturf is pretty much linked to things like the
0:14:21.533,0:14:26.033
uh Trackman to all these indoor facilities
0:14:26.033,0:14:29.366
speaking yeah I mean trap man in range top tracer
0:14:29.366,0:14:32.300
foresight sport I know that there's a lot of you know
0:14:32.300,0:14:33.933
kind of unity and talking
0:14:33.933,0:14:36.066
and you know you know there is a lot of what's the
0:14:36.066,0:14:38.533
communication between all of those bodies
0:14:38.533,0:14:42.566
and I speak with them a fair amount um so yep no I'm in
0:14:42.566,0:14:46.200
Sydney and you know you know golf golf pros too I mean
0:14:46.500,0:14:48.466
like like I said you know we're doing stuff
0:14:48.466,0:14:51.300
with golf pros and they speak and they get give us
0:14:51.300,0:14:53.233
input and then when I speak to Sin Lorn
0:14:53.333,0:14:55.766
they say well you know what was the problem I'm like well
0:14:55.766,0:14:58.533
the colour of the turf or the speed or
0:14:58.700,0:15:00.566
you know uh this isn't that
0:15:00.566,0:15:02.966
realistic and then they just go back and
0:15:03.033,0:15:05.100
and make my changes you know and
0:15:05.100,0:15:07.433
like like I said I mean you know you know there is
0:15:07.700,0:15:09.766
you know the these companies uh
0:15:10.166,0:15:11.633
and if I look at North America
0:15:11.633,0:15:15.633
I mean 99% of the turf manufacturers are in one city
0:15:15.633,0:15:18.733
in North America Dalton Georgia so they're all talking
0:15:19.033,0:15:22.500
so they're in one one space um and um
0:15:22.500,0:15:24.866
yeah you know so they so they're very very reliant
0:15:24.866,0:15:26.066
on information
0:15:26.066,0:15:28.533
that that we give them and others in our space
0:15:29.000,0:15:30.166
you know and in some ways
0:15:30.166,0:15:32.933
we're kind of you know the R&D guys as well um
0:15:33.233,0:15:35.133
you know the kind of pioneering guys but yeah
0:15:35.133,0:15:37.933
you know they you know a lot of them see potential
0:15:37.933,0:15:39.600
and you know you just gotta look at
0:15:39.733,0:15:42.633
the TGL which really is I mean the first
0:15:43.166,0:15:45.966
PGA Tour event on artificial turf
0:15:46.500,0:15:48.833
which you know I mean I mean
0:15:49.233,0:15:51.800
you know if if you think about other sports
0:15:53.266,0:15:55.933
and you being Scottish I guess I guess you would would
0:15:55.933,0:15:57.966
enjoy soccer but I mean if I think about cricket
0:15:58.466,0:15:59.866
I mean you know I mean kind of
0:15:59.866,0:16:01.866
cricket had that transition hey where
0:16:01.900,0:16:03.933
they had that test hey you know that test
0:16:03.933,0:16:06.100
match cricket for such a long time and it was kind of
0:16:06.100,0:16:07.966
and I'm not saying golf's gonna die
0:16:08.133,0:16:09.966
Paul I still play cricket
0:16:10.766,0:16:13.533
I still play cricket and I play in Scotland
0:16:13.566,0:16:15.900
and for people don't know you need firm
0:16:15.900,0:16:19.066
and fast hard ground to play cricket on
0:16:19.533,0:16:22.733
and the only way we can get that majority of our games
0:16:22.733,0:16:24.500
in the shoulder season
0:16:24.500,0:16:27.166
is with Astroturf or with turf or with
0:16:28.066,0:16:30.900
turf yeah so I I got you I got you but
0:16:30.900,0:16:33.066
but you know I'm not kind of relating astro turf
0:16:33.066,0:16:35.766
to or artificial turf to cricket I mean where
0:16:35.766,0:16:37.233
I mean what what I'm saying is that if
0:16:37.233,0:16:39.500
if you look at the evolution of cricket
0:16:39.500,0:16:41.866
and you kind of say and and you and you
0:16:41.866,0:16:43.033
and you look look at golf
0:16:43.033,0:16:44.633
and and I'm I'm not saying golf
0:16:44.633,0:16:46.866
is anywhere near where cricket was 15
0:16:46.866,0:16:48.433
years ago where you know you had test
0:16:48.433,0:16:51.666
cricket which took five days that's a long time
0:16:51.666,0:16:54.933
my wife and kids would never have kind of bought into that and then they
0:16:55.133,0:16:58.933
boredom T20 cricket which is now the most popular
0:16:58.933,0:17:01.266
form of cricket and everyone bloody plays it everyone
0:17:01.266,0:17:03.866
watches it and it only takes three or four hours
0:17:04.133,0:17:07.033
you know and and and now all these top top
0:17:07.033,0:17:09.166
cricketers are making hundreds of millions
0:17:09.533,0:17:11.333
whereas before they were making a
0:17:11.333,0:17:13.166
you know a million bucks um
0:17:13.166,0:17:16.033
and now you have all this massive viewership and now my wife will
0:17:16.033,0:17:16.533
put you know
0:17:16.533,0:17:18.333
go and go and watch it I'm just saying you know
0:17:18.333,0:17:20.500
if if you look at golf I mean I think that you know
0:17:20.500,0:17:22.666
you'll obviously have that great classic golf
0:17:22.866,0:17:25.133
and that's not going away and it's and it's very
0:17:25.300,0:17:27.733
very healthy but but I think there's that kind of
0:17:27.733,0:17:30.533
movement into that more of that entertainment kind of
0:17:30.533,0:17:31.833
different form of golf
0:17:31.833,0:17:33.866
and you know maybe maybe it's not kind of your
0:17:33.866,0:17:35.600
old school classic stuff
0:17:35.700,0:17:37.933
but I can see that that that space you know there
0:17:37.933,0:17:40.266
there is a great saying by Wayne Gretzky
0:17:40.733,0:17:42.900
I don't go to where the puck is I go sorry
0:17:42.900,0:17:43.433
great players
0:17:43.433,0:17:44.933
don't go to where the puck is great players
0:17:44.933,0:17:47.033
go to where the puck's gonna be and I think
0:17:47.033,0:17:49.366
think you know I mean I think think that if in sport
0:17:49.366,0:17:51.600
or in anything if you don't kind of move
0:17:51.833,0:17:53.533
with the times I think you know
0:17:53.533,0:17:55.433
you're probably coming stuck somewhere
0:17:55.966,0:17:58.033
it's so true and it's really it's so
0:17:58.033,0:18:00.833
interesting right cause um golf is
0:18:01.300,0:18:04.433
viewership in terms of golf four day stuff is a bunch of old
0:18:04.433,0:18:07.466
men who aren't who've got nothing to do
0:18:07.633,0:18:11.066
and um are bored at home and
0:18:11.966,0:18:12.566
no offense
0:18:12.566,0:18:15.466
to every single person that probably listens to this podcast
0:18:15.733,0:18:16.533
there's a
0:18:17.266,0:18:20.933
there is needing to be a push a re invention of um
0:18:21.666,0:18:24.966
of essentially what we've done for years and let
0:18:24.966,0:18:27.466
let's be honest the live guys try to do it
0:18:27.466,0:18:29.433
and still trying to do it
0:18:29.833,0:18:33.833
TGL's a nighttime activity like the T20
0:18:34.500,0:18:35.300
but why
0:18:36.233,0:18:39.633
golf wasn't played over and over four days
0:18:39.866,0:18:43.766
stroke play 100 years ago it was all match play mm hmm
0:18:44.233,0:18:45.033
yeah
0:18:45.166,0:18:50.366
and I know the guys are trying to do a bit of that by doing things like the match and
0:18:50.966,0:18:52.833
all these kind of one off events
0:18:53.500,0:18:57.633
are engaging but I don't know if we have found the
0:18:57.633,0:18:59.766
solution yet whether TGL is the solution
0:18:59.766,0:19:03.833
that's the question yeah not not sure but you know
0:19:04.233,0:19:05.966
for for me it's quite
0:19:05.966,0:19:10.000
encouraging to you know to see all these outlets
0:19:10.733,0:19:13.466
but like
like I said you know I think you you get a bit
0:19:13.466,0:19:14.633
stagnant if you don't
0:19:14.633,0:19:17.666
change and you don't move into that different space
0:19:17.733,0:19:20.300
at least at least from my perspective I mean I
0:19:20.300,0:19:22.833
I massively appreciate great golf
0:19:22.833,0:19:25.433
and that's been my background and that's been how I learnt
0:19:25.433,0:19:26.666
this game you know going and seeing
0:19:26.666,0:19:28.133
good golf and going and seeing
0:19:28.333,0:19:32.333
interesting and unique golf um but you know certainly
0:19:32.333,0:19:33.966
certainly in the space that we live
0:19:33.966,0:19:35.766
it you know for me to kind of see that
0:19:35.766,0:19:37.033
that growth and you know
0:19:37.266,0:19:39.933
people being interested in that um
0:19:40.033,0:19:43.100
is quite encouraging and that and that doesn't seem to be slowing down
0:19:43.100,0:19:45.000
I mean we're getting a lot more inquiries
0:19:45.466,0:19:47.800
do you think we'll ever see a great
0:19:48.100,0:19:50.433
golf course built with artificial turf
0:19:50.466,0:19:54.300
I don't know I don't know I mean you know from an environmental perspective
0:19:54.300,0:19:57.400
I I mean I'm not sure that is the best thing um
0:19:57.966,0:20:01.333
but you know but like like I said I you know um
0:20:02.300,0:20:03.700
it it's not impossible
0:20:03.700,0:20:07.033
because you cause you you can do just just as much
0:20:07.033,0:20:09.733
using artificial turf as you can with grass in fact
0:20:10.000,0:20:11.900
you could probably make it more interesting
0:20:11.900,0:20:14.300
you know imagine you know a kind of Saint Andrews
0:20:14.300,0:20:16.566
with all the humps and bumps but even more kind of demanding
0:20:16.566,0:20:17.133
cause you're not
0:20:17.133,0:20:18.466
cause you're not worried about scalping
0:20:18.466,0:20:20.466
and mowing machines and all of that stuff
0:20:20.533,0:20:22.633
and you can get get the turf to
0:20:22.766,0:20:26.233
run fast and you can have I mean I was with um
0:20:26.233,0:20:27.633
I was with one of my partners
0:20:27.633,0:20:31.166
Gareth Raffleski who's a golf coach uh last week
0:20:31.166,0:20:33.466
and we're looking at a at a 400 square
0:20:33.466,0:20:35.700
meter about a 4,000 square foot space
0:20:35.700,0:20:39.333
and in that space he's got a a 200 square meter green
0:20:39.333,0:20:41.033
and we were like OK well within this green
0:20:41.033,0:20:41.933
we're gonna have a section
0:20:41.933,0:20:44.633
that runs at 10 speed a section that runs at 11 speed
0:20:44.666,0:20:45.333
we'll have a section
0:20:45.333,0:20:48.666
that's bouncy we have a section that's you know uh
0:20:48.666,0:20:50.266
non bouncy so I
0:20:50.266,0:20:53.333
if if he's got Corey Connors there or Nick Taylor
0:20:53.366,0:20:54.866
and they're gonna go and play
0:20:54.933,0:20:56.533
you know North Berwick or Galeane
0:20:56.533,0:20:58.366
next week it's gonna be a bit more bouncy
0:20:58.366,0:20:59.833
than gonna go and play a golf course
0:20:59.833,0:21:02.100
in northern Chicago you know the next week
0:21:02.100,0:21:04.466
so all within this 200 square meters
0:21:04.466,0:21:06.500
we we can create all these environments and then
0:21:06.500,0:21:07.566
around the side
0:21:07.566,0:21:09.433
we're like well we well we can put in a cool
0:21:09.433,0:21:11.733
season grass we can do a a warm season
0:21:11.733,0:21:15.433
Kikuya a cool season fescue we can have a tight line
0:21:15.733,0:21:18.100
you know
you know so you can do a lot more within a smaller
0:21:18.100,0:21:20.800
environment and that to me is quite cool um
0:21:20.866,0:21:23.233
so yeah I mean that's very cool
0:21:23.533,0:21:25.966
you know I don't think it's impossible uh
0:21:25.966,0:21:28.533
that that you can't do something really cool it's just
0:21:28.533,0:21:31.766
it's just who's got got the money um you know
0:21:31.900,0:21:34.166
you could do it maybe maybe in bloody Saudi I I
0:21:34.166,0:21:35.300
you know I wouldn't know but
0:21:35.300,0:21:37.233
but you could certainly do something cool
0:21:37.700,0:21:39.300
you would think that somewhere like
0:21:39.300,0:21:40.733
Saudi or Abu Dhabi or
0:21:40.733,0:21:43.066
UAE would be the right right place yeah
0:21:43.333,0:21:44.933
where grass is hard to grow
0:21:45.833,0:21:47.600
yeah well that I mean
0:21:47.766,0:21:52.266
artificial turf battles more in the heat versus the um
0:21:52.566,0:21:56.033
cold you know so it can be set in 300 degrees
0:21:56.266,0:21:58.900
Celsius minus and it's absolutely
0:21:58.900,0:22:01.933
fine but if it's in I think if it gets beyond I think
0:22:02.333,0:22:07.000
70 degrees Celsius and I'll have to check that or 100
0:22:07.366,0:22:08.833
and I guess out in Saudi
0:22:08.933,0:22:11.366
with the sand and what what not you know
0:22:11.366,0:22:13.933
it get quite hot but again uh
0:22:14.633,0:22:15.733
with this artificial turf
0:22:15.733,0:22:17.433
now some of the turf has heat blocks
0:22:17.433,0:22:20.533
so they reduce this the the heat of of of the turf
0:22:20.633,0:22:22.833
you know so there's ways much much like
0:22:22.833,0:22:24.833
I guess much like when the first apple phone
0:22:24.833,0:22:27.066
came out it was it was very basic
0:22:27.333,0:22:31.266
and then you know all this kind of input and feedback they're kind of going OK well
0:22:31.366,0:22:33.133
if we're gonna do stuff in Saudi Arabia
0:22:33.133,0:22:34.633
well the the the heat of the
0:22:34.633,0:22:36.300
the the heat and the and the turf
0:22:36.300,0:22:38.466
temperature is high so how do we
0:22:38.533,0:22:40.100
reduce that so you know they'll
0:22:40.100,0:22:42.166
they'll find a way I mean they're a lot more smarter than
0:22:42.166,0:22:42.900
than me
0:22:42.900,0:22:45.633
let's move on to your journey and your bit about your
0:22:45.700,0:22:48.666
um how you got into golf course architecture cause I've
0:22:48.666,0:22:49.566
just spent 20 minutes
0:22:49.566,0:22:52.233
talking about artificial turf and it's Paul
0:22:52.466,0:22:53.266
on your part
0:22:53.700,0:22:57.166
you could not pay me to talk to about artificial turf
0:22:57.166,0:22:59.100
before this conversation
0:22:59.100,0:23:01.866
genuinely but that was fascinating really interesting
0:23:02.333,0:23:04.500
um let's talk about a wee
0:23:04.500,0:23:06.466
bit about how you got into golf course architecture
0:23:06.866,0:23:08.133
wow when it all start
0:23:08.533,0:23:10.766
where it all started well I when I was born in
0:23:10.766,0:23:12.866
Zimbabwe I mean back then it was uh
0:23:13.266,0:23:14.533
it was Southern Rhodesia
0:23:14.533,0:23:16.600
so that's how long ago I was born although
0:23:17.633,0:23:20.333
and then I uh yeah you know and then and then the
0:23:20.333,0:23:22.366
family moved down to Durban South Africa
0:23:22.366,0:23:24.433
I mean I'm not sure if you've ever been to South Africa
0:23:24.566,0:23:26.866
but Durban yeah I mean with the
0:23:27.033,0:23:30.466
you know Durbs is on the uh the um East Coast
0:23:31.033,0:23:32.833
um lovely lovely city
0:23:32.933,0:23:35.933
probably two or three million folk and uh
0:23:35.933,0:23:37.066
schooled there uh
0:23:37.333,0:23:42.400
and that's I mean that's where I started so there was a
0:23:42.833,0:23:45.633
there was a a municipal course next to Durban Country
0:23:45.633,0:23:47.133
Club so if if
0:23:47.133,0:23:49.400
you know you're probably know Durban Country Club
0:23:50.300,0:23:51.100
um
0:23:51.966,0:23:53.666
but there was a municipal course
0:23:53.666,0:23:54.866
next next door called Windsor
0:23:54.866,0:23:56.300
I'm not sure if it's called that anymore
0:23:56.300,0:23:58.033
but they had a little mashie course
0:23:58.266,0:24:01.133
a mashie course being a little par 3 a little
0:24:01.366,0:24:04.066
almost a little chip and putt course 50 to
0:24:04.666,0:24:08.766
100 yards and I lived um well at least we lived um
0:24:08.966,0:24:10.700
up on the hill in Morningside and I
0:24:10.700,0:24:13.600
used to trek down with my sticks
0:24:13.666,0:24:15.166
and just play this little mashie
0:24:15.166,0:24:17.233
course and it was almost free to play I think you
0:24:17.233,0:24:19.633
you could just about walk on and then they had a pro
0:24:19.633,0:24:22.466
shop
just across the road and they had a little green there and I used to
0:24:22.533,0:24:24.133
hit it shots and then um
0:24:24.866,0:24:26.433
uh I went to Durban Boys High
0:24:26.433,0:24:27.466
which was a good sporting
0:24:27.466,0:24:28.933
school a good a great great cricket
0:24:28.933,0:24:31.433
school a great Rugby school and also a great golf school actually Rory
0:24:31.433,0:24:35.733
Sabbatini was a year above me at school and um
0:24:36.033,0:24:37.600
a few others um
0:24:38.033,0:24:41.466
you know so they had had had a golf team and um
0:24:41.933,0:24:44.300
I played a bit of golf there uh with
0:24:44.300,0:24:47.033
with the golf team and then I became a member at Royal
0:24:47.433,0:24:48.233
Durban
0:24:48.466,0:24:50.700
which again shouldn't be mixed up with Durban Country
0:24:50.700,0:24:52.266
Club Royal Durban is based
0:24:52.266,0:24:55.033
in the gravel racetrack so it's got a
0:24:55.033,0:24:57.666
an actual horse racetrack around the course and uh
0:24:57.666,0:25:00.800
it's actually somewhat linksy actually it's very open
0:25:01.233,0:25:05.066
I mean it's not on the sea um and it's kikuyu grass so
0:25:05.500,0:25:07.833
uh you know it's it's you know it's not a very
0:25:07.833,0:25:11.800
linksy bounce but um yeah Sawyer was a member there
0:25:11.900,0:25:14.866
uh and when you were a member at Royal Durban you had
0:25:14.866,0:25:16.366
reciprocity at just about every golf
0:25:16.366,0:25:18.466
course in South Africa so when we travelled
0:25:18.500,0:25:19.533
beautiful sport
0:25:20.100,0:25:21.266
or you know a break
0:25:21.500,0:25:24.466
I would uh I would try and play play golf and it was
0:25:24.466,0:25:26.566
it was certainly very very cheap playing playing golf
0:25:26.566,0:25:29.866
um back back then I mean if I recall
0:25:29.866,0:25:32.200
a membership and this would have been in the late eighties
0:25:32.733,0:25:34.166
early 90s a membership at Royal
0:25:34.166,0:25:36.033
Durban would have been something like 200 rand
0:25:36.033,0:25:38.033
and if you look at I mean I think
0:25:38.033,0:25:40.566
200 rand today is about £10
0:25:40.866,0:25:43.366
and that and that and that gave me
0:25:43.366,0:25:46.433
access to to the club every day um
0:25:46.700,0:25:48.233
except for Saturday morning
0:25:48.466,0:25:51.300
you know and I could go out and just you know put some
0:25:51.300,0:25:52.466
practice and then go and play
0:25:52.466,0:25:53.966
nine holes and of course I had friends
0:25:53.966,0:25:56.033
around and yeah so so that was it
0:25:56.233,0:25:57.866
that was it and kind of you know
0:25:57.933,0:26:00.000
you know I got caught the bug and uh
0:26:00.166,0:26:01.900
I guess the you know the rest is history
0:26:01.900,0:26:03.766
I'm you know I love love sport I mean I love
0:26:03.766,0:26:06.600
love Rugby growing up and I love cricket and
0:26:07.533,0:26:10.066
these
sports you have to love if you're South African right
0:26:10.433,0:26:11.533
yeah yeah
0:26:11.633,0:26:13.766
how did you become a golf course architect then
0:26:14.266,0:26:17.066
hell that's a great great question and you know
0:26:17.400,0:26:18.100
I guess when
0:26:18.100,0:26:20.433
when I think about the guys today and they're talking
0:26:20.433,0:26:24.533
about you know oh I I knew I knew you know
0:26:24.533,0:26:26.466
Mackenzie and Donald Ross and
0:26:26.466,0:26:29.666
Hodgkin and you know Colt and all of those guys
0:26:29.933,0:26:33.200
I probably didn't even know though those guys until I
0:26:33.266,0:26:35.766
I probably you know started to
0:26:36.433,0:26:38.866
you know I kind of started my what's the degree at in
0:26:39.433,0:26:41.433
well not of my degree I
0:26:41.533,0:26:43.566
I started my work out in Washington DC
0:26:43.566,0:26:45.533
but I did a degree in town planning
0:26:45.533,0:26:47.966
because I've always been fascinated in big scale design
0:26:47.966,0:26:50.466
big scale landscape design um
0:26:51.166,0:26:55.333
you know kind of city planning um and I guess
0:26:55.833,0:26:57.866
by my second or third year I was like shit
0:26:57.866,0:26:59.966
I don't wanna be stuck in the office here
0:27:00.366,0:27:03.066
you know doing dumb permits or site plan approvals
0:27:03.066,0:27:05.266
I mean that's just not not stuff that I enjoy
0:27:05.333,0:27:07.366
and how can I merge design
0:27:07.366,0:27:08.933
with with a with a passion for sport
0:27:08.933,0:27:11.166
and you know particularly golf and I guess
0:27:11.166,0:27:13.566
back then it was the early days of the internet
0:27:14.066,0:27:17.400
and I I did some research and there was you know um the
0:27:17.866,0:27:19.500
American Society of Golf Course Architects
0:27:19.500,0:27:22.333
and there was the I think it was back then it was the
0:27:23.066,0:27:25.600
British Society of Golf Course Architects is now the
0:27:25.666,0:27:28.000
you know European and I wrote to um
0:27:28.766,0:27:30.300
a number of members
0:27:30.300,0:27:32.933
and I ended up doing an internship in Washington DC
0:27:32.933,0:27:33.933
for a group called
0:27:33.933,0:27:36.300
Alcock and Associates so just outside of Washington
0:27:36.300,0:27:39.766
DC in a town called Kensington and I recall
0:27:39.766,0:27:41.700
flying into Washington DC I would have been
0:27:41.700,0:27:43.233
so this was after four years of studies
0:27:43.233,0:27:44.833
I would have been probably 22 or
0:27:44.833,0:27:47.066
23 that was the first time I actually seen snow
0:27:47.633,0:27:49.866
uh so I remember landing in um
0:27:50.300,0:27:53.466
in the Dallas airport in Washington DC and getting
0:27:53.866,0:27:56.633
picked up in this white white snow but yeah so that was
0:27:56.633,0:28:00.066
kind of my my first uh introduction to
0:28:00.933,0:28:03.266
to to I guess golf course design
0:28:03.266,0:28:06.666
what was the time I spent with with the guys at uh at
0:28:06.666,0:28:08.966
uh
you know Al Clark and Associates and I'm still friends
0:28:08.966,0:28:09.966
with um with
0:28:09.966,0:28:11.133
with a few of them I mean Tom
0:28:11.133,0:28:13.233
Clark I saw Tom Clark I mean Tom could be probably
0:28:13.233,0:28:15.600
80 now I saw him last year I was down in
0:28:15.933,0:28:18.533
Virginia with him and then Jim Savonne
0:28:18.533,0:28:19.566
who was one of the architects
0:28:19.566,0:28:23.300
at the time he's just bought a golf club in Pennsylvania and I spent a day with him last
0:28:23.300,0:28:25.233
last year so you know I'm still I'm still
0:28:25.233,0:28:26.800
I'm still friendly with them um
0:28:27.466,0:28:28.333
and then yeah
0:28:28.333,0:28:30.966
you know and then from from there I ended up in the
0:28:30.966,0:28:34.366
in the UK so I had a I had a year internship
0:28:34.900,0:28:39.166
um in DC and I obviously I came into the US um
0:28:39.433,0:28:42.066
on a certain visa so I had to leave uh
0:28:42.066,0:28:44.166
and then come back on another visa
0:28:44.166,0:28:46.466
and and they were applying for for that and then
0:28:46.833,0:28:48.566
you know you had the Twin Towers
0:28:49.133,0:28:53.333
effect and uh I was I was kind of stuck in uh in
0:28:53.333,0:28:56.100
London UK without much much bloody money
0:28:56.100,0:28:59.366
and I was like shit you know uh what do I do
0:28:59.566,0:29:01.233
and um you know I I
0:29:01.233,0:29:03.766
back back then I had spoken to a few course architects
0:29:03.766,0:29:05.533
and I was you know uh uh
0:29:06.233,0:29:08.933
steel and uh horticulture
0:29:09.566,0:29:12.433
uh
and there was no work and I guess through my studies
0:29:12.433,0:29:13.266
I um
0:29:14.233,0:29:18.000
you know I done GIS geographic information systems
0:29:18.033,0:29:22.233
and back then uh it was it you know it was new um
0:29:22.633,0:29:23.366
and it was basic
0:29:23.366,0:29:26.566
I mean now when when you think about you know maps and
0:29:26.666,0:29:29.666
ways and all of these great great systems but back then
0:29:29.666,0:29:32.566
it was new and I was employed as a consultant
0:29:32.566,0:29:35.900
for the railways to help them build their JS systems
0:29:35.900,0:29:37.633
so I mean I think about Scotland
0:29:37.833,0:29:39.800
I used to work out in Houston
0:29:39.933,0:29:41.333
in London in King's Cross
0:29:41.333,0:29:44.000
and I I worked on that the West Coast main line
0:29:44.066,0:29:47.433
but I kind of uh I was involved in in all the
0:29:47.433,0:29:50.466
the the mapping and the mapping intelligence on that uh
0:29:50.566,0:29:52.733
and I was making good good money and whilst
0:29:52.733,0:29:54.166
I was not in the
0:29:54.833,0:29:56.633
design field I was out in London
0:29:56.633,0:29:57.966
buying all the golf books
0:29:58.333,0:30:01.300
you know so I was at sports pages and foils and
0:30:01.300,0:30:05.133
Waterstones so you know so in that in those few years
0:30:05.533,0:30:07.033
between me working
0:30:07.933,0:30:09.833
as a course designer
0:30:09.866,0:30:12.533
I was still doing a lot of that stuff and then
0:30:13.100,0:30:15.733
most most weekends I was flying around I was up in
0:30:15.733,0:30:17.633
Scotland I was in Ireland I was in Holland
0:30:17.633,0:30:21.066
I was in France you know so I so so I really good got
0:30:21.066,0:30:22.333
got a really good grounding
0:30:22.333,0:30:24.700
in in in in the two or three years that I was
0:30:24.700,0:30:26.200
outside of the business
0:30:26.366,0:30:28.500
in the sense that I got to see all the great golf
0:30:28.500,0:30:29.533
when I say all of them
0:30:29.533,0:30:31.133
a lot of the great great golf courses
0:30:31.166,0:30:32.433
and I probably didn't have any
0:30:32.433,0:30:33.933
mentorship you know so there was no
0:30:33.933,0:30:35.700
you know top 100 saying
0:30:35.700,0:30:38.266
hey these are the top golf courses so go and see them
0:30:38.266,0:30:40.766
it was kind of me just kind of you know hey
0:30:40.766,0:30:42.533
it'd be quite cool to go and see the stuff around
0:30:42.533,0:30:42.933
Presswick
0:30:42.933,0:30:44.566
it'd be quite cool to go and see the stuff out
0:30:44.566,0:30:46.400
and you know the ring of Kerry and
0:30:46.500,0:30:48.166
quite cool cool to go and see see the stuff
0:30:48.166,0:30:51.833
out of Daddy Holland um so yeah so that and then
0:30:51.833,0:30:52.500
then yeah I mean I got
0:30:52.500,0:30:55.866
got a call in 2000 I think early 2004 um
0:30:55.866,0:30:58.500
you know to get back into things and I started to work with
0:30:58.500,0:30:59.733
with the photo group
0:31:00.233,0:31:05.133
and no one was going out to Holland in 2000 no no no
0:31:05.466,0:31:09.333
like what I know well I mean now you know now now
0:31:09.333,0:31:12.233
when when people say oh you took Japan and Canada
0:31:12.266,0:31:16.000
and Norway and Denmark and Sweden and helvishum
0:31:16.266,0:31:17.433
you know I was like well
0:31:17.433,0:31:19.933
yeah I mean I'd seen all of those and then I was in Belgium
0:31:19.933,0:31:21.800
I went to um
0:31:21.900,0:31:25.233
knocker you know raw zoot uh and obviously a roll
0:31:25.233,0:31:28.200
and tap and you know tubes a few few others and um
0:31:28.333,0:31:30.033
yeah I mean back back then it was I'm
0:31:30.033,0:31:32.233
you know there was no kind of guidance
0:31:32.233,0:31:34.133
it was kind of just you know and I'd obviously
0:31:34.133,0:31:37.166
spoken with Wizard folks and when when I was actually
0:31:37.166,0:31:40.266
actually the Dutch trip actually um I'd
0:31:40.266,0:31:41.300
you know cause I'd
0:31:41.300,0:31:44.766
gone out a few times I'd spoken with uh with Nick Faldo
0:31:44.833,0:31:48.966
uh about this and you know I'd said I you know um went
0:31:49.133,0:31:51.066
I went and looked at a at a golf
0:31:51.066,0:31:53.933
project right next door to the airport in Rotterdam
0:31:53.933,0:31:55.266
and I said to him I said
0:31:56.233,0:31:59.166
you know what are your favourite golf courses uh
0:31:59.166,0:32:02.366
in you know the kind of well in those baddie countries
0:32:02.366,0:32:04.433
and he said oh he really loves raw Zut
0:32:04.700,0:32:05.966
you know cause he had won there
0:32:05.966,0:32:07.700
before and then he said he liked
0:32:07.700,0:32:09.433
I think it was Nord Nord Nord by
0:32:09.433,0:32:12.033
so you know so those were 2 2 that I had seen
0:32:12.033,0:32:13.966
before and I went went back and uh
0:32:14.733,0:32:16.300
yeah you know so those are all places
0:32:16.300,0:32:18.100
now that are all the rage but back
0:32:18.100,0:32:20.566
back then it was kind of like yeah you know who are
0:32:20.566,0:32:22.033
who you know who who who
0:32:22.100,0:32:24.000
who are you and why are you very
0:32:24.300,0:32:26.333
interested in in in a mama club
0:32:26.500,0:32:28.433
and I think think back then I think Frank Ponti
0:32:28.433,0:32:31.166
just just started to do work and stuff so yeah
0:32:31.166,0:32:33.966
so what was the next journey after that you've done your
0:32:34.300,0:32:35.733
time and then
0:32:36.033,0:32:38.833
where was next well you know you know shit so I worked
0:32:38.833,0:32:41.200
um I worked with Nick um
0:32:43.133,0:32:46.133
and then I still do do work with Web and Nick but um
0:32:46.133,0:32:48.800
I I started my own company so so what would
0:32:48.866,0:32:50.033
so what happened was I
0:32:50.033,0:32:53.066
I was based in in London so when I started with uh
0:32:53.066,0:32:55.766
Web and Nick it was the office was in Victoria
0:32:55.833,0:32:58.400
and then they moved to Putney and then they moved to
0:32:58.966,0:33:01.133
uh uh Windsor um
0:33:01.133,0:33:03.066
and around about the time they moved from Putney
0:33:03.066,0:33:04.533
to Windsor uh
0:33:04.533,0:33:07.066
my my wife got a job opportunity
0:33:07.066,0:33:10.733
so she was with uh Proctor and gamble uh and
0:33:10.733,0:33:12.733
and they were like hey you know we got a senior
0:33:12.733,0:33:14.433
position for you in Geneva
0:33:14.433,0:33:17.066
so I then approached Nick and uh
0:33:17.066,0:33:19.933
and his manager at the time I said you know listen um
0:33:20.033,0:33:23.766
this is a great opportunity for my wife you know uh
0:33:24.233,0:33:27.066
I'd like to to move across there um
0:33:27.566,0:33:30.033
and I and you know you know still still work with you
0:33:30.033,0:33:33.100
um and you know you know we came to some
0:33:33.100,0:33:34.366
agreement that I would
0:33:34.366,0:33:36.666
still work with them as a as a consultant
0:33:36.666,0:33:37.833
and I still had had
0:33:37.833,0:33:40.833
had work that that I was doing with them and I guess
0:33:40.866,0:33:41.533
I had the
0:33:41.533,0:33:45.333
you know the opportunity to start my own company too so
0:33:45.700,0:33:50.266
uh we moved to Switzerland I think in 2,008 and um
0:33:50.366,0:33:52.733
and I started Jansen Golf
0:33:53.833,0:33:57.233
roughly around about 2009 or or or 10 um
0:33:57.300,0:34:00.200
while still doing stuff with the Nick um
0:34:00.866,0:34:03.933
and yeah you know and then then and then you know
0:34:04.233,0:34:07.033
continued to do work as dancing golf and then
0:34:07.100,0:34:09.766
in 2011 um
0:34:10.066,0:34:12.633
we decided you know cheapest man we had kids and we
0:34:12.633,0:34:14.166
decided to move out to
0:34:14.333,0:34:16.966
North America so we we we we chose
0:34:16.966,0:34:19.733
Canada and that was my mostly because of my wife
0:34:19.733,0:34:21.233
she was a big big fan of
0:34:22.433,0:34:25.533
I was I was here and uh yeah you know and then
0:34:25.933,0:34:28.266
yeah you know I guess that that LED into the whole pal
0:34:28.266,0:34:30.266
stuff back in 2017
0:34:30.266,0:34:32.666
what projects did you work with Nick on and
0:34:32.700,0:34:34.933
was there any what was the one you like I mean
0:34:35.333,0:34:36.866
yeah you know you know
0:34:37.266,0:34:39.833
uh and most course architects will say this uh
0:34:39.866,0:34:40.933
there's a lot of projects
0:34:40.933,0:34:43.733
that we work worked on that that never got finished
0:34:43.866,0:34:44.500
but uh
0:34:44.500,0:34:47.633
you know some of the more memorable ones I mean I worked on Cornelia
0:34:47.633,0:34:49.366
down in Turkey um
0:34:50.133,0:34:52.733
uh that was a a really fun one um
0:34:52.733,0:34:54.966
I helped out some of the associates uh
0:34:55.266,0:34:57.600
with a Ledra Borg in um
0:34:58.266,0:35:00.000
Denmark um
0:35:01.133,0:35:03.966
I did uh Vietnam uh Lanco
0:35:04.166,0:35:07.233
um you know so those were kind of memorable ones uh
0:35:07.233,0:35:07.766
the one that
0:35:07.766,0:35:10.100
that I'm still work working on now with Nick Ponted
0:35:10.100,0:35:14.433
Depargo that that one started back in 2005 or six um
0:35:14.833,0:35:16.933
you know so those word would be the the
0:35:16.933,0:35:19.366
you know the the more memorable ones I guess
0:35:19.366,0:35:23.233
I guess early days it was more you know Europe and
0:35:23.266,0:35:25.766
America and then when you had the market crash the work kind of
0:35:25.766,0:35:27.400
moved out to you know Asia
0:35:27.400,0:35:29.333
this episode is brought to you by the Lockhart
0:35:29.333,0:35:30.200
Travel Club
0:35:30.533,0:35:34.000
we believe golf is more than a game it's a journey
0:35:34.333,0:35:35.766
a journey we've made across
0:35:35.766,0:35:38.866
34 of the world's top 100 courses last year
0:35:38.966,0:35:41.000
and now is your turn
0:35:41.566,0:35:44.233
we create bespoke travel experiences
0:35:44.233,0:35:47.166
for passionate golfers who expect nothing but the best
0:35:47.166,0:35:49.366
membership is limited so join us
0:35:49.366,0:35:51.333
at Locker Travel club.com
0:35:51.833,0:35:53.333
uh what was the unique
0:35:53.433,0:35:55.933
uh difference between Asia and Europe and America ha
0:35:55.966,0:35:56.766
ha ha
0:35:57.633,0:35:58.700
well I mean was it
0:35:58.700,0:36:01.300
Asia's a bit more Wild West I mean you know Europe
0:36:01.300,0:36:02.733
Europe and um
0:36:03.433,0:36:06.033
America I mean a you have access to
0:36:06.133,0:36:09.333
a lot more specialized people and machinery and
0:36:09.566,0:36:13.500
you know uh you know there were a lot more examples
0:36:13.500,0:36:14.133
of golf
0:36:14.133,0:36:16.366
whereas Asia it was like you know you were like trail
0:36:16.366,0:36:17.966
blazing you know they you know
0:36:17.966,0:36:20.533
you were kind of working with people out there that
0:36:20.533,0:36:22.866
had never seen a bloody golf club and you know
0:36:22.866,0:36:25.566
you know hard hard to find certain equipment um
0:36:25.700,0:36:27.833
you know sometimes it was tough to get certain shapes
0:36:27.833,0:36:29.733
out to you know certain parts
0:36:30.233,0:36:31.833
of of the world out there um
0:36:32.333,0:36:34.966
I guess there was sometimes travel challenges I mean
0:36:34.966,0:36:37.033
a lot of these projects um
0:36:37.300,0:36:38.800
when when I think about it
0:36:39.033,0:36:41.100
I mean when we went in there I mean shit
0:36:41.100,0:36:43.766
I I think about uh Laguna Lanko
0:36:43.766,0:36:47.366
uh in in Danang and if you go to Danang now
0:36:47.433,0:36:49.666
like you know there's every single nice bloody
0:36:49.666,0:36:52.233
hotel there but when we first went into Danang
0:36:52.233,0:36:53.300
there was like only two hotels
0:36:53.300,0:36:56.533
that took bloody credit cards and there was one uh we
0:36:56.533,0:36:57.866
stayed in called the Green Plaza
0:36:57.866,0:36:59.800
I mean it was like you know it was like
0:37:00.033,0:37:02.166
just very very very you know very very basic
0:37:02.300,0:37:03.166
and actually
0:37:03.500,0:37:06.000
when we got to the the site of the first time
0:37:06.133,0:37:09.200
um you actually couldn't access the site
0:37:09.666,0:37:11.966
by road you had to get to you know
0:37:12.500,0:37:15.400
you know catch a baddy boat around and then
0:37:15.766,0:37:18.166
it was it was kind of nuts and um
0:37:18.300,0:37:20.366
you know you know so there was a lot of those kind of
0:37:20.366,0:37:23.533
you know challenges you know infrastructure people
0:37:23.533,0:37:24.166
you know I
0:37:24.166,0:37:27.133
I mean I say people but you know people with experience
0:37:27.133,0:37:30.066
um language language barriers
0:37:30.100,0:37:33.566
you know you had a lot of translators um but you know
0:37:33.566,0:37:34.733
but but for me it was
0:37:34.733,0:37:36.666
it was fun I mean you know if you kind of
0:37:36.666,0:37:39.033
look at my life and my history
0:37:39.066,0:37:40.800
I mean I love love travel
0:37:41.033,0:37:42.966
and I've been all around the world and
0:37:42.966,0:37:44.566
and I and I particularly like
0:37:44.566,0:37:47.066
I guess what what most people would say is probably
0:37:47.166,0:37:48.533
you know a bit more challenging
0:37:48.533,0:37:49.933
travel you know going to places
0:37:49.933,0:37:52.066
that are a bit more off the beaten track
0:37:52.066,0:37:54.300
and I love that I mean I love that sense of adventure
0:37:54.300,0:37:55.166
and discovery and
0:37:55.166,0:37:57.266
and maybe that was you know based on on me
0:37:57.266,0:37:58.966
growing up in bloody Africa but
0:37:59.033,0:38:00.966
you know you know kind of going to these places
0:38:00.966,0:38:03.566
and kind of experiencing a bit of the culture
0:38:03.700,0:38:06.266
and you know when when I think about um
0:38:06.433,0:38:10.066
you know the the inspirations to to me it's it's it's
0:38:10.066,0:38:11.033
you know it's not just the golf
0:38:11.033,0:38:14.033
courses I've seen it's the kind of the the land and
0:38:14.033,0:38:16.900
you know if I think about Vietnam I mean I mean we
0:38:16.900,0:38:19.333
I mean we had about five hectares of rice paddy fields
0:38:19.533,0:38:20.966
weaving through through the
0:38:20.966,0:38:23.900
the golf you know and I got that idea by just driving
0:38:23.900,0:38:25.500
around and through the Baddie Mountains
0:38:25.500,0:38:26.500
and just seeing all these rice
0:38:26.500,0:38:29.133
paddy fields and and folks working you know and
0:38:29.300,0:38:32.033
you know I love that I mean I love love going and uh
0:38:32.433,0:38:34.033
exploring um
0:38:36.333,0:38:38.866
yeah so that would be yeah I I mean those would
0:38:39.833,0:38:42.600
be the big big challenges and
0:38:42.833,0:38:45.833
yeah I mean but fun great great fun I mean now
0:38:45.833,0:38:48.000
I mean now when when I hear
0:38:48.166,0:38:50.100
folks going to Asia I'm like well it's a lot lot
0:38:50.100,0:38:52.566
easier than than back back in my days I mean
0:38:52.866,0:38:55.633
shit I mean you know some of the roads and the planes
0:38:55.633,0:38:58.100
and the airports I mean I mean the first time again
0:38:58.100,0:38:58.933
going back to Danang
0:38:58.933,0:39:00.166
the first time we flew into Danang
0:39:00.166,0:39:02.000
I mean the the airport was like a shed
0:39:02.266,0:39:04.400
it was it was like it was as basic
0:39:04.466,0:39:05.933
as it came and now if
0:39:05.933,0:39:08.033
you know not none of the airports got a Burger King
0:39:08.033,0:39:11.133
and hotels and uh you know and all of that
0:39:11.533,0:39:13.566
out of interest what was the most difficult
0:39:13.633,0:39:15.666
moment you had when you were building out in these
0:39:15.666,0:39:16.466
Asian
0:39:16.866,0:39:19.633
areas Sri Lanka Sri Lanka actually uh
0:39:19.633,0:39:21.933
and this is a story and I'm and I'm not sure whether
0:39:21.933,0:39:26.900
you you're gonna delete it or not but I I I um so I
0:39:26.900,0:39:28.566
I don't know if you've heard of the Royal Columbia
0:39:28.566,0:39:30.266
Golf Club um
0:39:30.366,0:39:33.366
I've not but I do no well you know again
0:39:33.366,0:39:36.266
it's part of of the Royal you know
0:39:36.266,0:39:38.633
kind of group of clubs so I I don't know it's
0:39:38.633,0:39:41.333
I don't know how many there are maybe 75 or so
0:39:41.733,0:39:43.900
but but Royal Colombo is a really cool club
0:39:43.900,0:39:45.066
it's in the middle of Colombo
0:39:45.066,0:39:47.433
which is the capital city of Sri Lanka
0:39:47.666,0:39:48.933
and what's cool about it
0:39:48.933,0:39:52.533
well a few things one it's on like 93 acres of land
0:39:52.533,0:39:55.733
and they do about 100,000 rounds of golf which is nuts
0:39:56.066,0:39:58.333
um but they got a railway track
0:39:58.333,0:40:00.533
a live railway track running through
0:40:00.533,0:40:03.666
the middle of a golf you know so it's not like daddy
0:40:03.666,0:40:05.933
Scotland where you know yeah you got railway tracks
0:40:05.933,0:40:08.466
but it's off of to to the side
0:40:08.500,0:40:10.500
so they've got a live railway track
0:40:10.500,0:40:12.333
and you know during peak hour
0:40:12.333,0:40:15.366
trains are are coming through every 15 20 minutes
0:40:15.466,0:40:17.166
often jam packed um
0:40:17.900,0:40:19.733
and you can stand there on some tees
0:40:19.733,0:40:21.966
and you can actually touch the the train
0:40:22.033,0:40:25.200
I mean it's absolutely absolutely wizard daddy bananas
0:40:25.500,0:40:29.933
uh but I um so I was with the commission to
0:40:30.033,0:40:31.833
build them some new practice holes
0:40:31.833,0:40:33.500
so they had this piece of land
0:40:33.500,0:40:35.366
off to the side of the one hole
0:40:35.366,0:40:37.733
and they were concerned that if they didn't use it
0:40:37.733,0:40:39.433
the government would take it back
0:40:39.433,0:40:40.766
or you know at least uh
0:40:40.766,0:40:44.966
would you know develop on it so um so they wanted me to
0:40:44.966,0:40:46.233
to build an extra hole
0:40:46.233,0:40:48.466
that they could use for a practice hole
0:40:48.466,0:40:50.166
but they could also shut down a hole
0:40:50.433,0:40:53.200
um and then you know you know do do maintenance
0:40:53.333,0:40:55.066
uh on on the other 18 holes
0:40:55.133,0:40:57.866
and then also come in and do all their um teeing
0:40:57.866,0:40:59.333
areas as well as their practice
0:40:59.333,0:41:00.700
range I mean this would have been
0:41:00.700,0:41:02.066
more than 10 years ago
0:41:03.633,0:41:04.733
and I bought
0:41:05.433,0:41:09.466
and I bought an um a shape of PM
0:41:09.466,0:41:12.400
I had I had a friend who worked with me he was based in
0:41:12.433,0:41:13.933
Nepal of all places
0:41:13.933,0:41:16.666
and he actually came in and then in a few others
0:41:17.000,0:41:18.733
but he he got sick
0:41:18.733,0:41:21.633
and had to go back and I didn't have anyone
0:41:21.633,0:41:23.866
on on the ground there for about eight weeks
0:41:23.866,0:41:25.933
so I actually flew in there and I love
0:41:25.933,0:41:27.833
love Sri Lanka I love it I mean it's an absolutely
0:41:27.833,0:41:29.933
superb place I mean if no one's been it's it's
0:41:29.933,0:41:32.833
it's an unbelievable place and just so much variety within this small
0:41:32.833,0:41:36.233
small island but I remember going in there and um
0:41:36.566,0:41:39.666
you know I mean again no one there wanted to work
0:41:40.133,0:41:42.000
no one there knew about golf
0:41:42.533,0:41:45.233
you know and we needed to get this bloody thing built
0:41:45.366,0:41:48.566
at least this at least this hole built um
0:41:48.833,0:41:51.966
before the the monsoon and Sri Lanka's got two monsoon
0:41:51.966,0:41:54.733
periods and um so I
0:41:54.733,0:41:57.666
so I so I came in there and I think the second day
0:41:57.666,0:41:59.733
I got rid of all the standard workers
0:41:59.966,0:42:02.266
and um along the railway line
0:42:02.633,0:42:07.666
um you know every day driving into to the golf club um
0:42:07.933,0:42:10.366
you know there's all these guys that would come off
0:42:10.433,0:42:11.766
off of the railway lines
0:42:11.833,0:42:14.500
and they would ask you for golf balls and money and
0:42:14.500,0:42:14.900
and what
0:42:14.900,0:42:17.166
what not and and you know and they're all drugged up
0:42:17.366,0:42:18.266
and um
0:42:19.266,0:42:20.066
and um
0:42:20.600,0:42:23.566
and you know me being me and you know I
0:42:23.566,0:42:24.733
I guess you know when
0:42:24.733,0:42:26.466
when you work in all these kind of places
0:42:26.466,0:42:28.933
you know you just know how to kind of
0:42:29.366,0:42:31.566
you know look look to problem solve quickly
0:42:32.100,0:42:36.333
um
and I was like well we gotta get this done so what if I just bring in all these kind of drug addicts
0:42:36.333,0:42:38.966
off of the railway lines and get them to come and work
0:42:39.300,0:42:44.066
and so yeah so so so I I I remember calling up a few
0:42:44.066,0:42:46.066
few guys I said how many of your friends
0:42:46.066,0:42:47.433
do do you have and they said
0:42:47.966,0:42:48.700
whatever
0:42:48.700,0:42:52.566
and I remember that the next day about 15 of them
0:42:52.666,0:42:55.566
turning up and and and what they wanted
0:42:55.566,0:43:00.233
first up was was half their pay first up so I used to
0:43:00.733,0:43:03.233
I used to hand them whatever it was 10 bucks
0:43:03.933,0:43:05.066
first up and they would
0:43:05.266,0:43:07.733
leave for about half an hour and then come back
0:43:07.733,0:43:08.666
drugged up
0:43:09.433,0:43:12.233
that they would work like absolute machines
0:43:12.233,0:43:13.866
for about four hours and we're like
0:43:13.866,0:43:15.733
their eyes were like this and they would just dig dig
0:43:15.733,0:43:17.033
me out with the trench and
0:43:17.033,0:43:18.366
shit it was done or you know
0:43:18.366,0:43:20.633
kind of tap this and it was done or or you know
0:43:21.300,0:43:21.766
and
0:43:21.766,0:43:24.933
yeah you know so that kind of work worked a a a charm
0:43:24.933,0:43:26.933
but that was but that was kind of um
0:43:27.166,0:43:28.700
you know she was one of the challenges
0:43:28.700,0:43:30.133
that that you had to find a quick quick
0:43:30.133,0:43:31.666
solution or else she would come come
0:43:31.666,0:43:34.400
unstuck and of course you know out there you know there wasn't like
0:43:34.633,0:43:37.966
here or in Europe where I could call upon a shaper
0:43:37.966,0:43:39.766
you know that's an island and come come across
0:43:39.766,0:43:42.766
you know tomorrow or you know
0:43:42.766,0:43:44.333
so it was kind of one of those ones
0:43:44.333,0:43:46.733
where where I had to find find a bloody
0:43:46.733,0:43:48.733
solution quick quickly but yeah so that
0:43:48.733,0:43:50.033
would have been been that
0:43:50.033,0:43:52.633
you know the one good good thing about that was that
0:43:52.633,0:43:53.900
it was Sri Lanka it
0:43:53.900,0:43:56.433
you know it wasn't the middle of bloody China
0:43:56.433,0:43:57.833
you know it it was a nice
0:43:57.833,0:44:00.233
nice place to go you know I had a nice flat
0:44:00.466,0:44:04.066
uh on on the beach there and I had a nice little space
0:44:04.066,0:44:06.700
at this clubhouse that was 150 years old
0:44:06.700,0:44:08.166
and it was old and kind of colonial
0:44:08.166,0:44:10.433
and I used to have my tea and butter cake
0:44:10.533,0:44:12.733
and I used to go and get get the guys to
0:44:12.866,0:44:16.566
you know you know but but well I guess you know
0:44:16.866,0:44:19.033
go and buy me fruit and veg
0:44:19.100,0:44:21.066
and then I would bring it to to the club
0:44:21.066,0:44:23.366
and then they would cut it all so you know it it
0:44:23.366,0:44:25.833
yeah it's a great time but it was kind of challenging
0:44:26.066,0:44:29.433
uh in terms of of the construction and then you know we
0:44:29.533,0:44:31.833
we probably got about 85% done with
0:44:31.833,0:44:33.533
with with with the holes and with the tees
0:44:33.533,0:44:34.700
and then and then the the rain
0:44:34.700,0:44:37.033
started and of course that that became a bit of a mess
0:44:37.033,0:44:37.833
um
0:44:38.166,0:44:38.933
for for
0:44:38.933,0:44:41.733
a while but yeah you know we eventually got it done
0:44:43.166,0:44:44.833
yes it caused a huge amount of erosion
0:44:45.833,0:44:46.633
the
0:44:47.166,0:44:51.333
uh well not not so much uh erosion you know the the
0:44:51.600,0:44:53.933
the issue we had there was that uh
0:44:53.933,0:44:56.833
it was it was very clay heavy soil
0:44:57.100,0:44:58.866
um so we had machines
0:44:58.933,0:45:01.233
getting stuck and it was hard to do shaping
0:45:01.233,0:45:02.333
and dump trucks getting
0:45:02.333,0:45:04.066
stuck so we had you know excavators
0:45:04.066,0:45:07.600
behind them pushing them out of all these MUD MUD traps
0:45:08.366,0:45:10.833
no not not much much uh erosion actually
0:45:10.833,0:45:13.366
a place where we had a lot of erosion was uh
0:45:13.366,0:45:15.266
Vietnam actually in uh Lanka
0:45:15.266,0:45:17.500
you know they had a few serious storms there and
0:45:17.500,0:45:19.866
and that was a sand site um
0:45:20.133,0:45:22.066
and we had big big sections of sand
0:45:22.066,0:45:23.100
you know move quickly
0:45:23.100,0:45:25.533
there you know sand sand is a great great medium
0:45:25.800,0:45:26.966
to towards a Bill golf
0:45:26.966,0:45:30.333
but it's a shit medium to to to obviously grow golf um
0:45:30.533,0:45:35.333
you know and and an arts in Vietnam where you have
0:45:35.333,0:45:36.833
you or at least arts in Asia
0:45:36.833,0:45:38.833
where where you have some serious serious weather
0:45:38.833,0:45:41.000
you know um if you're not
0:45:41.133,0:45:43.600
grassing or you don't have grass established
0:45:43.766,0:45:46.466
and it's exposed and you have the heavy heavy uh
0:45:46.466,0:45:48.733
rainfall there you know and it's you know it's
0:45:48.733,0:45:51.766
it's seriously heavy you know you you could lose
0:45:51.766,0:45:54.033
thousands of cubes of wood so dirt of these sand
0:45:54.066,0:45:56.266
so yeah I mean you know Sri Lanka what was well
0:45:56.266,0:45:57.033
what was tougher
0:45:57.033,0:45:59.233
in in the sense that that the water just didn't drain
0:45:59.233,0:46:00.866
and it just kept on bloody raining
0:46:02.633,0:46:04.466
which which made it you know a lot lot
0:46:04.466,0:46:06.033
slow you know a lot lot slower
0:46:06.533,0:46:09.233
yeah very much so there's um
0:46:10.466,0:46:10.866
God
0:46:10.866,0:46:13.733
that I'm still computing the fact that you just bought
0:46:13.933,0:46:16.966
got a bunch of guys off the live train ha ha ha
0:46:17.366,0:46:20.433
you know
shit man so I'm not sure whether I should tell that
0:46:20.433,0:46:21.900
that story you know I told my
0:46:21.900,0:46:24.266
my team that and they and they laugh
0:46:24.500,0:46:26.166
but that's a true true story and yeah
0:46:26.166,0:46:28.500
again I mean that's I mean that's the one thing that
0:46:28.500,0:46:29.033
that I've learnt
0:46:29.033,0:46:31.366
the most I think by by working in these
0:46:31.366,0:46:32.566
in these challenging
0:46:32.566,0:46:34.766
places is that you gotta make make a plan
0:46:34.766,0:46:37.966
and make a plan quickly you know and I think think
0:46:38.233,0:46:40.366
I think that if I just worked in North America
0:46:40.366,0:46:42.933
or in Europe I probably been a bit more spoon fed
0:46:42.933,0:46:44.966
and when you know the shit hits the fan
0:46:45.033,0:46:46.933
it might have taken me a bit bit longer
0:46:47.033,0:46:49.333
you know so now now I don't get as stressed
0:46:49.333,0:46:51.433
if if something goes down cause I'm like well
0:46:51.533,0:46:53.900
it can't be any bloody worse than you know what would
0:46:53.900,0:46:54.500
what would went
0:46:54.500,0:46:56.966
went down in bloody Sri Lanka or Indonesia or
0:46:56.966,0:46:57.866
shit wherever
0:46:58.266,0:47:01.366
do you find do you find that um South Africans
0:47:02.266,0:47:05.100
I've just for some reason I've looked
0:47:05.100,0:47:07.666
into this there's quite a few golf courses out
0:47:07.700,0:47:11.166
in the modern new builds that would be in Asia or um
0:47:11.766,0:47:13.366
Turkey or wherever
0:47:13.366,0:47:15.233
a lot of South Africans have been involved in those
0:47:15.233,0:47:20.433
constructions is that because of there's a ring fence
0:47:20.433,0:47:25.833
of American and UK architects or in kind of in the
0:47:26.033,0:47:27.233
mature markets
0:47:27.233,0:47:30.133
well I mean in terms of of of workers I mean
0:47:30.666,0:47:33.566
I mean South Africans tend to be quite quite good
0:47:33.633,0:47:37.966
chameleons by that I mean they they tend to adjust to
0:47:37.966,0:47:41.166
certain environments fairly quickly and fairly easy
0:47:41.533,0:47:43.000
you know they're
0:47:43.166,0:47:45.766
they're they're very hard hard working uh
0:47:46.100,0:47:50.466
you know so you know so that that helps uh and I guess
0:47:50.566,0:47:51.666
I guess you know there's
0:47:51.666,0:47:54.533
probably not as many opportunities in South Africa
0:47:54.533,0:47:55.700
as is there are abroad
0:47:55.700,0:47:58.200
so when they get the opportunity you know it's
0:47:58.600,0:48:00.066
you know you know they're
0:48:00.066,0:48:02.100
you know they they would just grab it um
0:48:02.100,0:48:03.433
I mean I've got two South Africans
0:48:03.433,0:48:05.633
who work for for for me based based out
0:48:05.633,0:48:07.066
uh in Cape Town and they're absolutely
0:48:07.066,0:48:09.466
brilliant and I send them around the world uh
0:48:09.500,0:48:12.300
and you know and they and they can fit in very very
0:48:12.300,0:48:13.800
I mean very very quickly um
0:48:13.966,0:48:16.366
and you know they're yeah you know
0:48:16.900,0:48:17.666
they're uh
0:48:17.666,0:48:19.766
listen I'm not gonna say that they're tougher than
0:48:19.766,0:48:22.300
my other work you know other guys because
0:48:22.300,0:48:23.466
you know she is my
0:48:24.033,0:48:26.833
my what's your team's good um but they
0:48:26.833,0:48:29.366
yeah you know it doesn't take them long to adjust
0:48:29.533,0:48:31.866
and they don't mind about working you know
0:48:32.133,0:48:34.433
16 hours a day for seven days a week
0:48:34.466,0:48:37.166
and yeah you know you know they don't complain
0:48:37.166,0:48:38.433
and they're good and they're tough
0:48:38.433,0:48:39.666
and they're you know they they
0:48:40.133,0:48:41.700
they they they got a great great
0:48:41.700,0:48:45.866
attitude so I think think that that helps um you know
0:48:45.866,0:48:47.566
and maybe maybe because they haven't been as
0:48:47.566,0:48:51.500
spoon fed as perhaps you know a lot of the west
0:48:51.500,0:48:53.566
west of the world you know and that's gonna sound bad
0:48:53.933,0:48:57.166
but it's but it's but it's probably true on a
0:48:57.466,0:49:00.600
on a different note if you met yourself 25 years ago
0:49:00.633,0:49:05.166
in DC or London what would you tell yourself oh wow wow
0:49:05.166,0:49:07.633
so I've done so much I've done so much travel
0:49:07.633,0:49:08.366
I mean I've done
0:49:08.366,0:49:10.833
70 countries but I haven't really enjoyed
0:49:11.433,0:49:13.900
a lot of that travel and that's because I've just flown in
0:49:13.900,0:49:15.300
gone to site and left
0:49:15.300,0:49:17.566
and I think think that I would say to to myself
0:49:17.566,0:49:22.200
just just spend a bit more time enjoying yourself and
0:49:22.333,0:49:24.300
you know taking in the sights and sounds
0:49:24.300,0:49:28.066
and you know maybe maybe uh yeah you know um
0:49:28.566,0:49:31.233
I mean that would certainly be one um
0:49:31.700,0:49:34.933
I think uh what would be another one um
0:49:35.933,0:49:38.266
you know I mean patience you know there's
0:49:38.266,0:49:40.033
there's been times where I've where I've obviously
0:49:40.033,0:49:41.866
tried to push things too too quickly and
0:49:41.866,0:49:43.166
and I think you know I mean I think
0:49:43.166,0:49:45.366
think that if you have a a process and
0:49:46.300,0:49:47.733
uh you know you kind of
0:49:47.733,0:49:49.733
stick stick by it and you're positive
0:49:49.733,0:49:51.666
and and that you know you know
0:49:51.766,0:49:54.266
you know you're gonna do do fine um
0:49:55.233,0:49:56.900
yeah I you know I think think just
0:49:56.900,0:49:58.233
you know you know time
0:49:58.500,0:50:01.366
I mean when when I sit here here now and with my team
0:50:01.366,0:50:03.466
and me being almost 50 um
0:50:03.533,0:50:05.566
and a lot of the guys around me are
0:50:05.633,0:50:08.900
you know late 20s 30s and I think man you know I'm
0:50:08.900,0:50:10.133
I'm more than halfway through
0:50:10.133,0:50:12.000
through my my life I'm you know probably
0:50:12.166,0:50:15.133
whatever it is two two thirds of of the way through
0:50:15.366,0:50:17.733
you know I probably probably should have yeah
0:50:17.733,0:50:18.633
you know spent
0:50:18.633,0:50:21.566
a bit more time enjoying things very versus just being
0:50:21.666,0:50:23.933
pretty pretty full on um so I think
0:50:23.933,0:50:24.833
think that would be
0:50:24.833,0:50:27.233
be the the one just kind of you know take out
0:50:27.233,0:50:28.866
a bit more time and and
0:50:28.866,0:50:31.133
enjoy things versus just being so
0:50:31.633,0:50:33.966
focused on kind of moving forward
0:50:34.500,0:50:36.700
no it's fantastic so now so now
0:50:36.700,0:50:38.933
so now I'm actually doing a lot of more of that so for
0:50:38.933,0:50:40.200
instance I was in uh
0:50:40.733,0:50:45.600
Madeira last month um and versus flying right back
0:50:45.766,0:50:48.066
I was like no I'm I'm gonna fly into the the Azores
0:50:48.066,0:50:50.000
cause I've always been keen to see Furness
0:50:50.866,0:50:52.033
um which is I think an old
0:50:52.033,0:50:55.066
Mackenzie Ross course he did with Sir Turnberry and um
0:50:55.100,0:50:59.833
so obviously I've I reached out to uh the folks who
0:50:59.833,0:51:00.833
who run that golf course
0:51:00.833,0:51:03.500
which is the government and I said hey I'm gonna come through you know
0:51:03.500,0:51:04.733
can you introduce
0:51:04.733,0:51:07.433
me to the guys I like to spend a few few days there and
0:51:07.433,0:51:09.933
and that's exactly what what I did I flew in
0:51:09.933,0:51:12.333
I had I think four days I rented a car I drove
0:51:12.333,0:51:14.066
around the island I went and saw the two golf
0:51:14.066,0:51:16.333
courses I just took in the sights and sounds and
0:51:16.333,0:51:18.066
it was fun yeah
0:51:18.300,0:51:19.633
what did you think of the golf course
0:51:20.966,0:51:23.333
I liked it a lot like so you know
0:51:23.333,0:51:25.733
you know cheaper is the one thing about these
0:51:25.766,0:51:27.700
you know when when you think about these old
0:51:27.700,0:51:28.866
these very old school golf
0:51:28.866,0:51:31.733
courses and you know Furness Murielia
0:51:32.066,0:51:33.666
you know places like like that
0:51:33.833,0:51:35.800
you know they don't have a lot of money
0:51:35.900,0:51:37.566
so they haven't changed a lot
0:51:37.566,0:51:39.233
so it's got a lot of character
0:51:39.233,0:51:43.133
and a you know and and there's a lot of fun and um
0:51:43.133,0:51:45.666
yeah so when you kind of play it it's very old school
0:51:45.833,0:51:48.900
and you know you know the the the greens are wild
0:51:48.900,0:51:51.600
I mean I suppose if they had had a lot of money
0:51:51.700,0:51:52.933
they would have got some
0:51:53.133,0:51:54.566
someone in there and kind of you know
0:51:54.566,0:51:56.933
flatten the greens and made it a bit more
0:51:57.100,0:52:00.166
you know kind of like rule based and you know
0:52:00.166,0:52:00.966
I don't know
0:52:01.133,0:52:03.733
what's the word you know so so it's it's it's it's
0:52:03.833,0:52:05.066
it's kind of non rule based
0:52:05.066,0:52:06.633
and it's a bit you know you know
0:52:06.966,0:52:08.900
there's like things there that that you wouldn't do
0:52:08.900,0:52:10.866
today but it's cool and because they have
0:52:10.866,0:52:13.133
you know they haven't had money to change it
0:52:13.133,0:52:16.033
you know you have these kind of a really cool routing
0:52:16.033,0:52:18.900
and then you have some really cool greens and holes and
0:52:18.900,0:52:20.066
you know you got the
0:52:20.166,0:52:22.166
the kind of sights and sounds of was it furness
0:52:22.166,0:52:25.566
around you which is which is really cool um and then in
0:52:25.766,0:52:27.066
the other course there you know they
0:52:27.066,0:52:29.566
you know they have all these rock walls and ruins and
0:52:29.966,0:52:31.033
you know I love that
0:52:31.033,0:52:32.833
you know I really love that so they have a really
0:52:32.833,0:52:33.966
strong sense of belonging
0:52:33.966,0:52:35.666
and again I mean that's because they
0:52:36.033,0:52:39.766
well I mean you know I think it's quite cool design
0:52:39.766,0:52:42.266
that they've kind of incorporated a lot of that within the golf
0:52:42.266,0:52:42.766
and
0:52:42.766,0:52:45.366
it just you know they haven't had had money to kind of
0:52:45.633,0:52:47.366
you know you know change things
0:52:47.366,0:52:48.633
what do you think is the most important
0:52:48.633,0:52:51.033
thing to you when you're designing a golf course
0:52:51.033,0:52:53.066
sense of place I mean I think um
0:52:53.766,0:52:57.533
you know for me um you know
0:52:57.533,0:52:59.233
I would want want my wife
0:52:59.233,0:53:01.366
my kids to walk the course and enjoy it
0:53:01.366,0:53:03.966
and you know as much as I love Shenandoah Hills
0:53:04.433,0:53:06.966
you know or baddy Saint Andrews I'm sure
0:53:06.966,0:53:08.500
sure that if they play that they'll go like well
0:53:08.500,0:53:09.433
you know or at least walk
0:53:09.433,0:53:10.733
through that they'll go like oh shit a brick
0:53:10.733,0:53:12.700
this is just you know I mean they
0:53:12.700,0:53:14.500
I mean they great great courses in terms of you know
0:53:14.500,0:53:17.033
strategy and and all all of that
0:53:17.033,0:53:19.166
but I just love you know the the kind of
0:53:19.166,0:53:20.733
the the sense of adventure
0:53:20.733,0:53:22.966
so again going back to Lanka going you know
0:53:22.966,0:53:25.133
you know looking at the course we're doing in
0:53:25.466,0:53:26.966
Madeira with all the rock walls
0:53:26.966,0:53:29.066
and the levadas and stuff you know just
0:53:29.066,0:53:30.633
just that well you know rooting
0:53:30.633,0:53:31.833
you know clearly you know
0:53:31.833,0:53:34.466
the route taking you to all the cool spots
0:53:34.833,0:53:36.666
and then just just you know incorporating
0:53:36.666,0:53:38.766
all of that within the golf you know be it
0:53:38.833,0:53:41.033
on on the site or off the site you know and
0:53:41.233,0:53:42.500
again you know it'd be a place
0:53:42.500,0:53:44.700
where I could walk with my wife and she goes like wow
0:53:44.700,0:53:47.333
that's cool what great views and I love the rock walls
0:53:47.333,0:53:50.833
and you know oh there's a mango tree there let
0:53:50.866,0:53:52.633
you know let me just grab grab a bit of mango
0:53:52.633,0:53:54.833
actually I was actually speaking with um
0:53:54.833,0:53:56.433
a golfer the other day and I
0:53:56.433,0:53:58.900
you know and I said to them oh I used to play a lot of golf at
0:53:58.900,0:54:00.000
Durban Country Club
0:54:00.466,0:54:02.700
and he said to me he said oh I love Durban Country
0:54:02.700,0:54:03.666
Club because there's all these
0:54:03.666,0:54:05.800
bloody banana trees there and bloody monkeys
0:54:06.333,0:54:06.900
and I was like oh
0:54:06.900,0:54:08.933
okay you know so so you didn't like like the course
0:54:08.933,0:54:11.566
but but that was the thing that that stuck with with
0:54:11.566,0:54:13.533
with him was that hey you know you know all the kind of
0:54:13.533,0:54:14.800
Nat naturalism
0:54:14.866,0:54:17.266
and the kind of wildlife was really cool
0:54:17.366,0:54:21.233
um and that that to me is probably probably well it I I
0:54:21.833,0:54:23.766
it it certainly not probably it's the most
0:54:24.233,0:54:25.466
you know important thing
0:54:26.066,0:54:26.500
yeah
0:54:26.500,0:54:29.100
the uniqueness of environment you can build a golf course and really
0:54:29.100,0:54:31.800
build something experience yeah 100%
0:54:31.933,0:54:34.866
you know and I've seen some really really cool ones
0:54:34.866,0:54:36.600
around the world I mean if I think about it
0:54:36.733,0:54:38.066
I mean a place like Burma
0:54:38.066,0:54:40.766
you know I went out to Burma James um
0:54:41.633,0:54:44.566
OK I mean it'll be more than 10 years ago I you know I
0:54:44.733,0:54:45.533
um
0:54:45.900,0:54:49.466
I used to do a lot of speaking events and uh
0:54:49.466,0:54:52.033
the RNA did this Asian
0:54:52.666,0:54:55.366
tour where where we did like Delhi and
0:54:55.466,0:55:00.066
Tokyo and Seoul and um and I made the mistake
0:55:00.500,0:55:03.866
saying to Dominic Wall who's still the head of bbrna
0:55:03.866,0:55:05.766
for Asia Pacific I said oh
0:55:05.833,0:55:08.600
you know I'm I've always been fascinated by Burma
0:55:08.633,0:55:10.666
you know and I've heard that there's a few golf courses
0:55:10.666,0:55:13.266
there and he said oh don't don't worry Paul I'll uh
0:55:13.266,0:55:14.200
arrange it all
0:55:14.466,0:55:17.633
for you and there's and there's 130 golf clubs in Burma
0:55:17.866,0:55:21.333
um which which you know which kind of like blew me
0:55:21.333,0:55:22.900
Mimi away and
0:55:22.900,0:55:24.500
anyway a few few months months later
0:55:24.500,0:55:27.366
he had arranged for the Burmese or whatever
0:55:27.633,0:55:30.700
what's a Myanmar Golf Association to meet me in Yangon
0:55:30.700,0:55:34.200
you know the old Rang Rangoon and we flew um
0:55:34.866,0:55:36.633
so we so we looked at golf
0:55:36.633,0:55:38.566
courses around Yangon you know
0:55:38.566,0:55:40.666
I think I think they're all Yangon I think it is
0:55:40.666,0:55:41.666
which is which is
0:55:41.666,0:55:44.866
more than you know 100 years old and then we flew up to Mandalay
0:55:45.100,0:55:46.833
and then we flew into the Old Town
0:55:46.833,0:55:49.400
Bagan which is unbelievable I mean if you
0:55:49.566,0:55:51.033
if you haven't seen Bagan
0:55:51.266,0:55:53.433
it's kind of one of the the great places
0:55:53.466,0:55:55.133
in the in the world I mean you you would
0:55:55.133,0:55:58.233
so fly in and they got about 5,000 ancient pagodas
0:55:58.533,0:55:59.666
there they have these like golf
0:55:59.666,0:56:01.233
courses that are just the worst
0:56:01.233,0:56:02.633
maintained golf courses in the world
0:56:02.633,0:56:05.033
but you're playing alongside these ancient pagodas
0:56:05.033,0:56:07.066
and you've got these volcanoes
0:56:07.366,0:56:09.166
you know out of my pump pop pop
0:56:09.433,0:56:10.433
and all these kind of weird
0:56:10.433,0:56:12.400
weird kind of cool cool things and
0:56:12.566,0:56:14.833
you know and I look back at that and I'm like wow
0:56:14.833,0:56:17.700
I mean that was just so cool or you know you kind of go and play golf
0:56:17.700,0:56:19.366
in South Africa
0:56:19.366,0:56:22.533
I mean you go and play golf at skukuza or Sabi River or
0:56:22.533,0:56:24.933
bloody elements and you got you know electric fences
0:56:24.933,0:56:26.466
around the bloody greens cause you got
0:56:26.466,0:56:28.966
crocodiles and bloody you know
0:56:29.533,0:56:30.533
hippos in the uh
0:56:30.533,0:56:32.533
you know the the baddie baddie water features
0:56:32.533,0:56:36.033
and you know you got zebras and giraffes walking across
0:56:36.033,0:56:38.633
so yeah you know so that's kind of stuff that I love
0:56:39.500,0:56:40.700
yeah yeah I
0:56:40.700,0:56:43.866
I completely understand that I played golf in Mathega
0:56:43.966,0:56:45.100
and I never in South Africa
0:56:45.100,0:56:47.766
and this is actually a Tom Dux store story actually
0:56:47.766,0:56:51.066
I I don't know if Tom's been been on your um and
0:56:51.066,0:56:53.033
we haven't had Tom we had a lot of his disciples
0:56:53.033,0:56:54.566
so we've had yeah so what's
0:56:54.566,0:56:56.733
it Tom you know so what's it Tom Tom did
0:56:56.933,0:56:57.433
you know what's it
0:56:57.433,0:56:59.733
Tom Tom does his book what's his book called The
0:57:01.866,0:57:05.333
and
he reached out to me and stuff and you know about doing
0:57:05.333,0:57:06.033
some stuff
0:57:06.033,0:57:09.000
in Africa and I said listen Tom I said I'm going down to Kenya
0:57:09.433,0:57:10.733
the the Kenyan Golfing Union
0:57:10.733,0:57:13.600
have invited me to go down and do a speaking event
0:57:13.633,0:57:14.666
down there I said well why don't
0:57:14.666,0:57:16.800
why don't you come down to Kenya with me
0:57:16.833,0:57:20.133
and we'll also go into northern Zambia and we'll
0:57:20.133,0:57:21.466
and we'll and we'll see something
0:57:21.466,0:57:23.266
golf cause I've always been keen to see
0:57:23.366,0:57:26.366
in particular the courses in northern Zambia and in the
0:57:26.366,0:57:28.566
you know the old Copper Belt region
0:57:29.666,0:57:30.833
so you know I mean I mean
0:57:30.833,0:57:33.100
great great on him you know I would have met him in uh
0:57:33.100,0:57:34.933
in was it Nairobi and we spent
0:57:34.933,0:57:37.233
yeah we spent about 10 10 days we
0:57:37.433,0:57:39.533
you know the uh the Kenyan Golf
0:57:40.033,0:57:42.733
Union took us out to all of the golf courses around
0:57:42.733,0:57:43.633
uh around was it
0:57:43.666,0:57:45.866
you know that in Nairobi Karen Golf club
0:57:46.433,0:57:48.833
uh Sigona Lemarue
0:57:49.900,0:57:52.033
uh the Railway Club um
0:57:52.366,0:57:54.833
which was great I mean I think what's at saigone
0:57:54.833,0:57:56.966
could be a Tom Simpson course I mean that's certainly
0:57:56.966,0:57:59.700
the ground zero for Kakuia grass
0:57:59.700,0:58:01.133
I mean that's where Kakuia
0:58:01.133,0:58:02.933
grass come comes from I mean that's in the
0:58:02.933,0:58:04.066
district of Kakuia
0:58:04.066,0:58:06.333
and that's really cool cause you gotta think all those tea
0:58:06.500,0:58:08.733
plantations around um
0:58:09.266,0:58:10.566
and then and then from there we
0:58:10.566,0:58:13.033
we flew into northern Zambia and were taken
0:58:13.033,0:58:14.933
around to a few of those really cool
0:58:14.933,0:58:17.400
courses there in Dola in Kanna
0:58:17.933,0:58:19.633
um I kind of full
0:58:19.633,0:58:21.033
forget get a few of the other names
0:58:21.033,0:58:22.466
but I mean those were these kind of
0:58:22.466,0:58:25.000
you know cause northern zambias got these massive big
0:58:25.100,0:58:29.933
mines um uh open cast mines and all these expats
0:58:29.933,0:58:30.566
that would come
0:58:30.566,0:58:32.166
come in would kind of stay in all these
0:58:32.166,0:58:33.433
all these kind of compounds
0:58:33.433,0:58:36.033
which had all these country clubs and tennis courts
0:58:36.233,0:58:39.866
and and and a really cool old school uh clubs
0:58:40.133,0:58:42.466
uh so you would so you would drive through the towns
0:58:42.466,0:58:44.666
and it was like potholes and a bit kind of manic
0:58:44.833,0:58:46.633
and then you would get into the doors
0:58:46.633,0:58:48.866
and I'll be like what the hell this is like you know
0:58:48.866,0:58:49.633
gustational
0:58:49.633,0:58:52.466
and no no I mean what's the seriously I mean uh uh
0:58:52.866,0:58:54.766
you just gotta look up in Cana
0:58:54.966,0:58:57.300
you know to see where what I mean I mean
0:58:57.300,0:58:58.566
you know it's really cool cool course
0:58:58.566,0:59:01.233
and a lot of wildlife and you know well maintained
0:59:01.233,0:59:04.366
fairways and greens and um yeah you know you you
0:59:04.366,0:59:06.500
you would have felt like you were in Africa
0:59:06.500,0:59:07.433
too cause it's just very
0:59:07.433,0:59:09.466
very open and you could just see the kind of sir sir
0:59:09.933,0:59:11.166
banner and stuff and
0:59:11.166,0:59:13.966
yeah you know Tom Tom was a great sport I mean we had
0:59:14.066,0:59:16.766
I think we had two or three flat tires and
0:59:17.100,0:59:18.033
stopped by cops
0:59:18.033,0:59:20.733
and paying off cops and stuff and he was yeah he was
0:59:20.733,0:59:23.000
he was a yep he was great
0:59:24.066,0:59:26.766
so there's a there's something very special about uh
0:59:27.500,0:59:30.133
Africa and just the way you have to deal with things and I can
0:59:30.133,0:59:31.166
imagine for someone
0:59:31.166,0:59:33.133
Tom's done a lot of travelling well what's it Tom Tom
0:59:33.300,0:59:37.166
Tom Tom couldn't bloody drive a bloody manual car
0:59:37.166,0:59:39.266
and of course out there it was on the well
0:59:39.266,0:59:43.366
I'm sure she'll say he can but uh out there is on the
0:59:43.366,0:59:44.733
what what's it the left hand
0:59:44.733,0:59:47.066
side of the the road and of course the
0:59:47.366,0:59:49.633
sticks are on the right side and I can drive down
0:59:49.633,0:59:51.766
manuals so I was driving a belly manual
0:59:52.100,0:59:54.933
uh you know and um yeah I mean I
0:59:55.466,0:59:58.000
which was which was quite quite funny but no
0:59:59.233,1:00:01.333
yeah it was fun I mean you know and
1:00:01.866,1:00:02.233
again
1:00:02.233,1:00:05.033
I mean that's stuff that I love and I think think
1:00:05.166,1:00:06.866
it was I'm sure it was a lot
1:00:06.866,1:00:09.300
easier for him because I kind of knew the scene
1:00:09.300,1:00:12.966
and you know the food and how to eat the food and
1:00:13.033,1:00:15.633
maybe there were things there that he stressed about
1:00:15.633,1:00:20.033
that I said you know don't stress about um you know
1:00:20.033,1:00:22.266
um I think think the biggest stress there was
1:00:22.266,1:00:24.733
really was um it was a big
1:00:24.733,1:00:27.866
big malaria zone at least in northern Zambia and then
1:00:27.866,1:00:29.166
around about the time
1:00:29.166,1:00:32.666
about 100 miles away in in the Congo they had an Ebola
1:00:33.333,1:00:35.166
outbreak and of course you know
1:00:35.266,1:00:38.366
Ebola doesn't know yup borders just as like uh
1:00:38.433,1:00:39.366
just like with some malaria
1:00:39.366,1:00:41.033
so you know so those are things you know you need
1:00:41.033,1:00:42.800
need to kind of watch out for but
1:00:42.833,1:00:45.733
yeah I mean it was all good no it was great he had fun
1:00:45.733,1:00:46.600
I think
1:00:47.533,1:00:48.633
ha ha ha I can imagine
1:00:48.633,1:00:50.833
there would have been some incredible conversations
1:00:50.833,1:00:51.633
that would have
1:00:52.100,1:00:54.733
on those long drives yeah
1:00:54.733,1:00:56.733
I mean what's the Tom Tom's a great guy
1:00:56.733,1:00:59.166
in in the sense that he's very very open book
1:00:59.166,1:01:01.466
you know um and I enjoy
1:01:01.466,1:01:04.233
that you know and I'm very much the same I mean I just say it
1:01:04.466,1:01:06.566
ha ha I see it and you know
1:01:06.566,1:01:08.566
you know he's really cool when it comes to sharing
1:01:08.566,1:01:11.166
information and sharing ideas
1:01:11.166,1:01:14.266
and and you know listening and you know I guess
1:01:14.500,1:01:15.466
you know his feed
1:01:15.466,1:01:18.366
feed feedback's great and yeah just just just a really
1:01:18.366,1:01:20.333
you know really cool cool guy it was it
1:01:21.500,1:01:24.533
do the whistle stuff with you know on these whistle
1:01:24.533,1:01:27.100
trips
you know and we and we still stay in touch in fact I
1:01:27.100,1:01:30.266
we've we've we've just completed a project in
1:01:30.266,1:01:31.300
Paraparumu
1:01:31.300,1:01:35.166
in New Zealand which has a great golf course there um
1:01:35.633,1:01:37.666
a paddock course and two of my guys
1:01:37.666,1:01:38.566
wanted to play golf
1:01:38.566,1:01:40.466
and so I just reached out to Tom I said Tom
1:01:40.466,1:01:42.433
can you just arrange some golf so he arranged a Cape
1:01:42.433,1:01:44.233
kidnappers for them teriyaki
1:01:44.566,1:01:48.100
and I could have been Arrow Town I think anyway
1:01:48.100,1:01:50.333
you know so he you know so he's always good at that
1:01:51.266,1:01:54.000
yeah uh so yeah so um
1:01:54.733,1:01:55.500
yeah fun
1:01:55.500,1:01:57.933
I mean you know those those are all trips that I love
1:01:57.933,1:02:01.433
and and and cherish the most you know and
1:02:01.766,1:02:03.066
and just going on those trips
1:02:03.066,1:02:05.233
with someone else I think it's really really cool
1:02:05.233,1:02:06.366
you know cause I've been on
1:02:06.366,1:02:07.933
on a number of trips by myself
1:02:08.433,1:02:11.166
and I'm like oh it'd be really cool to kind of share this with you know
1:02:11.166,1:02:12.400
buddy someone I mean my
1:02:12.400,1:02:14.866
I mean my wife's not not that that keen um
1:02:14.933,1:02:15.900
you know my wife uh
1:02:15.900,1:02:17.233
keeps on saying to me to just just
1:02:17.233,1:02:19.833
just be careful and make me sure I don't come back with
1:02:19.966,1:02:23.233
with a a baddie parasite or you know something but uh
1:02:24.100,1:02:26.500
you know what I don't don't do much of those anymore
1:02:26.500,1:02:27.366
I mean I now
1:02:27.366,1:02:30.366
send my teams out to these places you know and they
1:02:30.466,1:02:32.733
and they keen keen to go so
1:02:33.333,1:02:36.033
yeah I can imagine sounds like an absolute adventure
1:02:36.133,1:02:38.866
especially if you got a bunch of guys are 25 30 running
1:02:38.866,1:02:39.666
around
1:02:40.033,1:02:43.133
I've been yeah all over that like a rash when I was
1:02:43.366,1:02:46.433
yeah well I would have took out um so
1:02:47.100,1:02:48.266
again before
1:02:48.433,1:02:52.366
Covid we were doing some work out in Dakar Bangladesh
1:02:52.933,1:02:56.466
uh and I took out one of my guys there and he was
1:02:56.533,1:02:58.133
petrified but of course um
1:02:58.466,1:03:01.633
when we got there I mean just you know we had guys I
1:03:01.900,1:03:04.800
I have to send you some some pic pictures but you know
1:03:04.966,1:03:06.133
we had guys walking
1:03:06.133,1:03:09.133
behind us with umbrellas and chairs and it it was like
1:03:09.133,1:03:11.533
it was like you know shit man you know 100 years
1:03:11.533,1:03:13.800
ago we had like guys coming with coconuts
1:03:14.033,1:03:16.433
and peeling our Betty oranges and uh
1:03:16.833,1:03:19.666
yeah please send me photos of that I will
1:03:20.333,1:03:23.100
that
make a great I'm having a great great one with myself
1:03:23.100,1:03:27.433
and the clients uh the his his name was
1:03:27.433,1:03:28.666
the Brigadier Salam Akhtar
1:03:28.666,1:03:30.766
who was probably the second or third most
1:03:31.100,1:03:32.566
important person in Bangladesh
1:03:32.566,1:03:35.266
he was the head of the UN during the war in
1:03:35.533,1:03:39.966
in Bosnia in in the whatever the 90s wonderful guy um
1:03:40.233,1:03:43.433
and I got a picture of him and me sitting there
1:03:43.433,1:03:46.066
and the shapers are out doing the work
1:03:46.833,1:03:50.766
and there's him there and me on two chairs
1:03:50.766,1:03:52.966
and a guy behind with an umbrella
1:03:53.233,1:03:55.500
behind us both and then there's a guy there with like
1:03:55.500,1:03:58.800
some food it was like anyway but yeah it is a
1:03:59.033,1:04:01.166
you know but those are all thing things that I love and
1:04:01.633,1:04:04.200
you know kind of yeah kind of cherish
1:04:04.666,1:04:07.266
I've got one last question for you that I always ask everyone
1:04:07.266,1:04:11.400
on their first pod and what's your top five favourite
1:04:11.433,1:04:14.533
golf courses so not the best your favourites
1:04:14.533,1:04:18.233
yeah West Sussex uh is my number one
1:04:18.666,1:04:20.933
um I love that that place um
1:04:22.133,1:04:24.300
Kawana in Japan just
1:04:24.300,1:04:26.166
just because I think that that's the best golf course
1:04:26.166,1:04:28.333
I've seen on a really tough parcel of land
1:04:31.033,1:04:32.833
Komati Port in
1:04:32.833,1:04:35.100
South Africa just because it's it's a nine hole course
1:04:35.100,1:04:38.033
and it's super natural and it's super African
1:04:38.033,1:04:38.633
cause you're right up
1:04:38.633,1:04:40.766
against the national park and you got wildlife running
1:04:40.766,1:04:41.933
around in fact you got a
1:04:41.933,1:04:43.300
you got the national park fence
1:04:43.300,1:04:45.933
right next to it and you got the Limpopo
1:04:45.933,1:04:47.433
River so you can stand there on the one
1:04:47.433,1:04:51.833
tee and you can see you know lines attacking you know
1:04:52.033,1:04:53.900
flipping giraffe and you can see crocodiles
1:04:53.900,1:04:55.266
coming up from from the
1:04:55.266,1:04:58.466
the you know bloody river and stuff so that's there
1:04:59.900,1:05:01.866
I like I like Shenandoah Hills
1:05:02.366,1:05:04.566
I guess for you know just the
1:05:04.566,1:05:06.766
you know kind of strategy and the land and
1:05:06.933,1:05:11.633
and you know how it looks um so that's four um
1:05:12.433,1:05:15.333
oh gosh what would be be be the fifth um
1:05:15.766,1:05:18.033
but I mean I like Royal County Down
1:05:18.033,1:05:20.500
I mean that was a place I think when
1:05:20.500,1:05:23.333
when I went to the first time I was probably the most blown
1:05:23.333,1:05:25.933
away by like wow this is cool and this is different
1:05:26.166,1:05:27.566
so probably those five
1:05:28.700,1:05:32.400
it's um that's the most eclectic group I've ever had
1:05:32.666,1:05:34.133
okay hahaha
1:05:34.633,1:05:38.166
so you want that really awful ones that that are often
1:05:38.500,1:05:39.833
bring up is a course
1:05:39.833,1:05:42.433
in the jungles of Indonesia in a place called Bogor
1:05:42.433,1:05:46.433
called Jagawari which is an old Peter Thomson course
1:05:46.533,1:05:48.466
and that's and that's awesome I can't believe
1:05:48.466,1:05:49.700
it would be cool and that's got
1:05:49.700,1:05:50.900
you know got these like massive
1:05:50.900,1:05:52.666
rivers running through it and
1:05:52.666,1:05:54.366
you you could just imagine pythons
1:05:54.366,1:05:56.233
coming out of the bush and
1:05:57.266,1:05:59.666
but
but that's a really cool cool cool one too that I've
1:05:59.900,1:06:00.700
you know
1:06:01.500,1:06:02.233
often on my head
1:06:02.233,1:06:04.766
and then one one more I guess sorry and this is 7
1:06:05.066,1:06:08.533
for like absolute absolute crazy uniqueness
1:06:08.766,1:06:12.666
would be nurelia in the tea plantations of Sri Lanka
1:06:12.666,1:06:15.066
you know so what would happen there was you know
1:06:15.266,1:06:16.033
the English built
1:06:16.033,1:06:18.766
this golf course 130 years ago and they definitely
1:06:18.766,1:06:21.933
didn't have any money uh to do work uh
1:06:22.266,1:06:26.700
and um so nothing's changed uh except
1:06:26.700,1:06:30.366
the city's now got bigger and it's now up against the
1:06:30.366,1:06:33.100
golf and it's now you know intertwine
1:06:33.100,1:06:34.300
within the golf so you got holes
1:06:34.300,1:06:36.966
there I mean I think about the fourth hole I think it is or the fifth hole
1:06:36.966,1:06:38.666
where you where you hit your tee
1:06:38.666,1:06:42.366
shot over the main road into the but the national park
1:06:42.366,1:06:44.100
you know so so so I guess
1:06:44.100,1:06:45.900
part of the the golf course has kind of also
1:06:45.900,1:06:46.666
become like a park
1:06:46.666,1:06:48.666
where folks play cricket and badminton
1:06:48.700,1:06:51.033
and then you right angle into the green
1:06:51.033,1:06:52.733
which is now surrounded by the city
1:06:52.966,1:06:54.566
so you got these five or six story
1:06:54.566,1:06:56.533
skyscrapers and they're right up against the Greek
1:06:56.533,1:06:57.266
so you know I
1:06:57.266,1:06:58.066
mean that's sort of stuff that
1:06:58.066,1:06:59.566
that you wouldn't see anywhere else
1:06:59.566,1:07:01.300
or certainly wouldn't be able to design
1:07:01.300,1:07:03.733
these days but that's a really cool cool one that also
1:07:04.166,1:07:06.966
uh you know I often often think about that's so unique
1:07:06.966,1:07:11.200
that's really cool I I really do uh want to
1:07:11.233,1:07:13.166
go out and explore these wonderful
1:07:13.633,1:07:17.366
oddities of golf yeah um yeah you know
1:07:17.466,1:07:18.333
there are so many golf
1:07:18.333,1:07:20.833
courses I mean that's the thing I mean you know yes I
1:07:20.833,1:07:23.333
you know you you guys do I'm sure a great great job
1:07:23.333,1:07:25.933
advertising some some unbelievable golf courses
1:07:26.100,1:07:28.433
but every golf course has a great story to tell
1:07:28.433,1:07:31.066
and you know there's whatever 30,000 golf
1:07:31.066,1:07:33.366
courses and and there's always something you can learn
1:07:33.966,1:07:34.900
from from a course
1:07:34.900,1:07:36.766
at least most most of them I would think uh
1:07:36.766,1:07:39.133
you know but certainly these these like ultra unique
1:07:39.133,1:07:41.633
ones too that are I mean they you know
1:07:41.700,1:07:43.666
you know they're really cool and certainly
1:07:43.666,1:07:46.233
certainly from my perspective too it's kind of like
1:07:46.233,1:07:47.666
it's almost given me the confidence
1:07:47.666,1:07:50.166
that I can kind of do a bit more kind of unique
1:07:50.166,1:07:51.800
wacky things because it's been done
1:07:52.100,1:07:53.700
whereas I think that if I hadn't
1:07:53.700,1:07:54.833
seen that I'll be like yeah
1:07:55.766,1:08:00.000
it's inspirational right so there's a
1:08:01.366,1:08:04.066
there's lots of different examples of that
1:08:04.366,1:08:09.866
that across golf historically you know you look at the
1:08:10.300,1:08:12.033
uh 18th at Saint Andrews
1:08:12.733,1:08:14.633
it's a great example of a golf hole
1:08:14.733,1:08:15.900
that no one would have built
1:08:15.900,1:08:17.433
that golf hole unless someone
1:08:17.633,1:08:19.366
bravely did it first yeah
1:08:19.633,1:08:21.100
yeah hundred percent hundred percent
1:08:21.100,1:08:23.700
you know you know there are so many great examples
1:08:23.700,1:08:25.966
in the first world if if I can use that
1:08:25.966,1:08:27.233
that that term I mean you look at the UK
1:08:27.233,1:08:30.100
Brancaster is a great one you know Rowells
1:08:30.100,1:08:31.533
Norfolk I mean that's pretty
1:08:31.533,1:08:33.300
pretty unique and different I mean that's pretty
1:08:33.300,1:08:34.100
unique and different
1:08:34.466,1:08:35.433
I mean I mean I
1:08:35.433,1:08:37.500
I don't know if it's still there but I mean when I went there
1:08:37.500,1:08:38.300
20 odd years
1:08:38.300,1:08:40.066
ago I mean it looked like it was gonna fall down
1:08:40.066,1:08:41.666
but you know the very fact that you walk
1:08:42.066,1:08:44.733
through the beach to get to the first hole in the first hole in the 18th
1:08:44.733,1:08:46.600
like crossing holes and then it's just like a
1:08:46.700,1:08:48.633
you know and that's it's it's cool you know there
1:08:48.633,1:08:50.433
you know there's all of those kind of cool examples
1:08:50.433,1:08:51.266
Hoy Lake
1:08:51.700,1:08:53.733
although that's been I think kind of dumbed down a bit
1:08:53.733,1:08:56.233
um you know but there's so many great
1:08:56.233,1:09:00.033
examples around the UK and the US and you know
1:09:00.266,1:09:03.233
so there's it's interesting of course you name our um
1:09:03.266,1:09:04.466
well this Hilux is
1:09:04.466,1:09:07.466
another example and West Sussex I know is an example
1:09:07.766,1:09:10.466
of um you ask someone their opinion
1:09:10.466,1:09:11.700
and they say they don't like it
1:09:11.700,1:09:13.566
their opinion isn't really worth much
1:09:14.100,1:09:14.900
and
1:09:16.766,1:09:17.466
that's someone
1:09:17.466,1:09:20.833
I've heard that a few times from people that if you don't like those golf courses
1:09:20.833,1:09:22.500
and you don't find something that you
1:09:22.500,1:09:25.033
enjoy in it then it means you're not looking at the golf
1:09:25.033,1:09:26.500
you're looking at the surrounds
1:09:26.500,1:09:28.866
and the mountains or the whatever or the
1:09:28.933,1:09:31.366
you want something spectacular rather than quality
1:09:31.733,1:09:32.533
that was quite
1:09:33.333,1:09:34.900
I mean and again sorry
1:09:34.900,1:09:37.100
sorry for for this but I mean I mean West West Sussex
1:09:37.100,1:09:41.033
is is a bit of a an outlayer because it's not you know
1:09:41.066,1:09:41.433
you know
1:09:41.433,1:09:43.900
next to Sunnydale and Saint George's Hill and Walton
1:09:43.900,1:09:45.666
Heath and you know it's kind of a bit
1:09:45.733,1:09:47.733
out of the way so if you didn't know
1:09:47.733,1:09:50.266
about it you probably would kind of miss it
1:09:50.333,1:09:53.533
but I recall my my good friend Nick Edmond
1:09:53.633,1:09:54.900
who's written many books
1:09:54.900,1:09:57.666
golf saying to me you know back back early on for
1:09:57.666,1:09:58.766
you need to go to West Sussex
1:09:58.766,1:10:00.433
I mean that's a really great bread space
1:10:00.433,1:10:03.500
and yeah you know that it is it's but but
1:10:03.500,1:10:06.133
but I can see how some p people can diss it I think it's a par
1:10:06.133,1:10:09.533
68 so you know if I think about some of the golf
1:10:09.533,1:10:10.733
people that I
1:10:10.733,1:10:13.533
speak speak to here you know if anything is not a par
1:10:13.533,1:10:16.900
72 it's it's shit it's got back to back par threes
1:10:16.900,1:10:18.666
there you know there's
1:10:18.933,1:10:21.200
I mean there's a ton of variety there I mean
1:10:21.666,1:10:24.100
you know it's each each scene is somewhat
1:10:24.100,1:10:26.500
different there's some water there's up and down holes
1:10:26.500,1:10:29.033
there's long holes short holes there's humps and bumps
1:10:29.066,1:10:31.333
trees no trees you know so
1:10:31.533,1:10:35.366
it you know to me it kind of epitomizes a place that I could play and
1:10:35.433,1:10:36.966
you know it's it's a really cool journey
1:10:36.966,1:10:38.733
through the property and it's visually
1:10:38.733,1:10:40.833
strong and there's so many cool little features
1:10:40.833,1:10:42.566
there that again that that my wife and kids
1:10:42.566,1:10:45.233
would I think go wow that's cool so yeah
1:10:45.366,1:10:46.666
and and then it's not
1:10:46.666,1:10:49.233
and then on top of that it's a good strategic
1:10:49.233,1:10:51.366
fist you know you know fist too you know they're
1:10:51.366,1:10:52.966
some strongholds that you gotta think well
1:10:52.966,1:10:55.233
that's great that's exactly what we look for and
1:10:55.300,1:10:55.766
and that
1:10:55.766,1:10:59.433
we rank it 31st in GPI or something like that so it's in the
1:10:59.433,1:11:00.500
it's right on that edge
1:11:00.500,1:11:03.033
whether it's in the top 100 or not in the world
1:11:03.500,1:11:06.733
and obviously there's beasts like raw
1:11:07.233,1:11:10.466
Saint George's or you know things that are just
1:11:10.966,1:11:12.200
are famous
1:11:13.366,1:11:15.600
for lots of different reasons you know
1:11:16.100,1:11:17.733
we should probably call it there
1:11:17.733,1:11:20.500
thank you very much Paul for coming on it's been an absolute
1:11:20.500,1:11:23.566
pleasure to hear a very unique
1:11:23.566,1:11:26.566
perspective on golf course architecture because of
1:11:26.566,1:11:29.633
your life experience and what you're doing now is very different to what
1:11:30.033,1:11:32.166
a guy trying to make it just making 18 holes
1:11:32.166,1:11:35.433
in the UK and America you know it's much more it's so
1:11:35.433,1:11:37.733
interesting it's fascinating so thank you very much
1:11:37.733,1:11:40.700
well thank thank you yeah I mean you know I do tend to
1:11:40.700,1:11:43.566
waffle a lot at least at least my team say
1:11:43.566,1:11:46.233
that so I hope if I haven't done too much waffling
1:11:46.333,1:11:47.100
and it's been fun
1:11:47.433,1:11:49.966
top 100 Golf courses.com has set the standard
1:11:49.966,1:11:51.433
for golfers worldwide
1:11:51.433,1:11:53.666
and now you can wear that standard proudly
1:11:53.866,1:11:55.933
premium apparel and exclusive gear
1:11:55.933,1:11:57.733
for those who truly know the game
1:11:58.066,1:12:00.400
shop now at Top 100 Golf courses.com