The Intersection of Design and Wellness in Outdoor Living

This comprehensive podcast explores the principles and practices of designing outdoor spaces, highlighting the benefits of these spaces on occupant health and wellness. The podcast will cover a wide range of topics, including the latest industry trends, design considerations and high performing materials for outdoor living spaces and how they enhance the outdoor experience for occupants. In this episode, we are joined by Jeff Surovi, Architectural Sales Manager for Keylink, Jason Foura, VP of Marketing Development of WOLF Home Products, and Mike Beaudry, Founder and Executive Director of NADRA. The podcast will explore the multifaceted impact of outdoor environments on both physical and mental health and offer insights into how thoughtfully designed spaces can promote overall well-being. Through detailed interviews on practical applications, participants will learn about technological advancements, design challenges, and emerging products influencing outdoor living in both residential and commercial applications. At the end of the podcast, participants will be equipped with the knowledge, materials and techniques available to design outdoor environments that strike a balance between aesthetic and functional requirements while bolstering the health and wellness of their occupants.

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Transcript

Hello, and welcome to the SpecShaman podcast, the show that explores the world of building product manufacturers, architects and engineers, sustainable design and technology and trends. We engage in thought-provoking discussions with renowned experts, industry pioneers, and visionaries who are making a significant impact in the construction industry. Join us as we explore groundbreaking ideas, revolutionary concepts, and the latest advancements shaping the built environment.

The SpecShaman podcast is hosted by Laura Elliott, the lead instructional designer at Ron Blank and Associates. Laura is a seasoned interviewer with a passion for uncovering the untold stories behind success. I hope you enjoy this week's episode.

Let's get started. Welcome to the Blueprint of Outdoor Living podcast. I'm your host, Laura Elliott, and today I'm joined by Jeff Cirovi, Architectural Sales Manager for KeyLink, and Jason Fora, VP of Marketing Development for Wolf Home Products.

Combined, these gentlemen have decades of experience in manufacturing and wholesale building materials distribution across various product lines. They bring a wealth of expertise to the table. Welcome to you both.

Thanks, Laura. Thank you. So I'm really excited to kick this series off with you two.

Could you tell us a little bit about what inspired you to start the Blueprint of Outdoor Living podcast? Well, Laura, Jason and I had an opportunity to work together for a number of years recently, and we saw the need for getting the word out to the design professional community about the opportunities in outdoor living. Oftentimes we're brought in at the end of the project, and it seems to be oftentimes products overlooked or opportunities overlooked. And with that in mind, we decided that with our knowledge of the industry and our passion for the industry, that we would like to just kind of have a conversation about it over a number of podcasts.

You know, in the past, my dad, 30 years ago, would have taken a deck and flipped the boards, you know, and it was just a deck, right? You need to treat the boards, he would turn them over and then repaint them. And that's very frugal, and I appreciate his frugality. But the reality of it today, right, is people are just willing to spend way more money to utilize that space.

We have less space available. And Jeff and I really just wanted to kind of elaborate on what we've seen in the last several years of seeing that growth and seeing it blossom into a much bigger category. It's not just a deck anymore.

Yeah, there's a lot of focus on going outdoors, too. In the last decade, I think people have had a new awakening for how important it is to build great outdoor spaces. Very true, very true.

I know one of the one of the topics that Jason and I wanted to address was how does outdoor living impact everyone? And, you know, we spoke this morning briefly about simple as grounding every morning and being outdoors and being able to ground and the benefits for your health, vitamin D and just having fresh air. I think I feel strongly that COVID had a lot to do with this, this new attention to outdoor living. We were cooped up for two years approximately, maybe depending on the region of the country, maybe more.

And again, it's what we all went through as a society, as an international as well. I mean, it just wasn't the United States, but everybody went through this together. And I think there's there's something there to take away from that.

And it's refocusing on healthy living, outdoor exposure and the like. So can you share some of the main goals you hope to achieve with this podcast? Yeah, the main one for me, you know, reach a broader audience and help the design professionals understand that there's a lot more options that they may have been aware of. You know, we see like Jeff had mentioned, you know, the end of these projects, they end up getting bumped off the job or they end up getting value engineered out because they're not no one's taking, I think, a bigger angle at the at the potential of those projects.

You know, we kind of joke, you know, starter home builders, you know, will board off the back door with a dummy door and really leaving a big opportunity missed where, you know, again, 20 years ago, it was just a deck, somebody put a deck on later and they didn't want to bother with it was low margin, you know, low volume. And, you know, they're missing a big opportunity because it is really an extension of someone's home. So that might, you know, my main goal would just be, again, to broaden people's horizons, maybe use some of what we've seen in the industry across many different states and really just learn from other guests that we potentially have on.

You know, there's a lot of difference between West Coast, East Coast, the Southeast, the Southwest. And so really just learning from it. And hopefully we can just use this as, you know, as a way for other folks to learn from from what we've learned, too.

To Jay's point, we do see a lot of regionality in products we supply to what markets Jay mentioned earlier. Traditionally speaking, black railing has been the predominant color of railing throughout most regions in the country. But you go down south, the lighter colors, white in particular, has been very popular down there because it doesn't hold the heat like black and some of the other darker colors would.

But there's many things that one has to consider about with the regionality of that. And we're finding that with the builders that we interact with, the architects and design professionals that we interact with as well. So it's just sharing, sharing knowledge, sharing best practices.

Hopefully we all learned something to have a takeaway from it. And I'm excited about we have we've had some great collaboration to date about some of the guests that we're going to invite across different aspects of outdoor living. It's not just all about railing and decking.

It's it's going to be encompassing a lot of different topics. And that's exciting to us. Yeah, I can't express how excited I am about this series and just the topics alone.

And I think for each episode that we have coming up, there's a lot of takeaways here and there's a lot of different things to consider when we're talking about the outdoor living space. So how does outdoor living impact occupants? Because at the heart of it, that's what it's built for, is for people to go out and enjoy the outdoors. I think it impacts by just making an extension of your home.

Again, it's it's really the viewpoint or maybe there's the change in how it was being viewed as just a deck as now, you know, really an addition of your home. Right. I mean, you know, people putting TVs in them, they're putting flat roofs, pitch roofs, you know, these type of pergolas that have shade capacity.

They have waterproofing systems that are louvered lights and just giving them an addition to their house. Really, I mean, really a usable space. You know, Jeff and I were kind of joking.

I've been in Norway a few times and it's amazing because they have a colder climate and they utilize that outdoor space way better than what I think we have been conditioned to. You know, they have heaters outside 50. I was telling Jeff, right, 50 degree weather, you'd have a sheep wools blanket for your lap and you'd be sitting on sheep's wools.

It's warm. Right. So utilizing more heaters, just utilizing that space and understanding that, you know, we're going to to feel better about our day.

We're going to sleep better if we get sunlight, we get outside. If we if we just utilize that space, I think it's going to make make us to be, you know, have happier lifestyles in general and just enjoy our homes better. So how does the demand for outdoor living spaces, how has it changed since COVID? What are the most significant things that we're seeing? We have seen as an industry, I'll use the term skyrocket, the interest in outdoor living materials, products, design, focus on that.

We've we we it's just taken off like a rocket. And it's exciting because, you know, we're in that industry. However, and that kind of ties back to the fact that people are realizing today that having exposure to the outdoors is important.

We spoke earlier today about screen time and how many people today just spend their entire day in front of a phone screen or whatever it is. And even when they're walking, you know, I just it's amazing to me. I like to if I go out to take that walk, I want to go out and just enjoy.

I know I'm not I might be listening to something, but I'm not sitting there, you know, looking at a website or something to that effect. You know, it's we need to be outside. And the COVID has really taught us that need to reinforce that need to be outdoors and to enjoy that space.

And we see it to continue. It's not slowing down in any stretch. Now, COVID definitely there wasn't anything really good that came out of it, of course, but if there was anything somewhat positive, it was just the reorganization or the reinvigoration of, you know, being more outside, utilizing your kitchen more.

And really, the outside is kind of more of an extension of the kitchen. Kitchen's now a hangout place. And to Jeff's point, you know, we just need to be outside more.

You know, our kids need to be away from screens. They need to be outside. They need to be enjoying the fresh air.

Get sunlight. You know, I was telling Jeff, even if you had to watch your favorite football team on a Sunday, if you're sitting outside, you know, throw a yoga mat down, do some push ups, you know, do some exercise, you know, if nothing else, sit on the couch while you and breathe some fresh air while you're outside. You're going to feel better at the end of the day.

Agreed. When I reflect on that on a personal level in my childhood, I spent a lot of time outside. And then I think when I became a young adult, I was so indoors and I had a similar experience.

I went to Scotland in the early 2000s and they had those the same heaters. And like it was, you know, it was pretty cold outside. But I mean, everybody was outside and enjoying themselves.

And I started to see those big heaters come through on decks of patios at restaurants and things like that about five years after that trip. And I was like, this is remarkable. Like we should have been doing this for quite some time.

Fire pits also kind of hit a really great stride about 15 years ago where they became really, really popular. So I agree. Being outside is so important, especially for our kids and how much time they spend on computers and ourselves.

I mean, almost everything we do is digital. Yeah. Incorporating that fire, like you mentioned, is so huge, right? I mean, it's in our DNA.

There's something about fire that, you know, just mesmerizes most people. And it's just it's something that we all should go back to. Right.

I guarantee your kids will be happier if they sat on a fire and you made some marshmallows or just sat and watched the fire. There's something about it. It's fairly, you know, reasonable price point to have a solo fire pit or, you know, one of those, you know, those smokeless pits that you can buy now and just set it up on your deck.

Right. So yeah, great, great points. Brings back the primeval nature of human to sitting around fire and enjoying that space with with your community, whether it's your family or extended family and the like.

So it's really good. There's a there's a lot tied to it. You know, it's a simple thing you think you could overlook it pretty easily.

But there's a there's a lot to benefit from from outdoor spaces. So with this new focus of of let's go outside, let's really make an integral, you know, move towards designing for outside. What are some of the challenges that owner teams and clients are facing when they go out to build an outdoor space? I consult with design professionals setting expectations for not only materials or outcomes, but also budgeting purposes.

And really, it's key. Those are the challenges that we all face when working to design something or build something is just making sure that we set proper expectations and proper budgeting to get the desired outcome. Yeah, and to Jeff's point on that, you know, the main reason, right, Jeff, is that we just don't we don't want to see you go through the design process, which is very, very important, and then have it value engineered at the end because nobody planned for it.

Or, you know, the design gets overlooked. It's the end of the project, right? It is a very valuable space and put the priority behind it. But then understand how those products are also very striated.

I mean, product where it's five different price points or more. There's price points to hit. So kind of working with your manufacturers to understand where those price points are at so you can better design with a budget in mind.

There's nothing worse than seeing that design go to fruition at the end and then they they kill it and it gets value engineered out. Right. And to that value engineering, oftentimes they're looking to use the term cut corners and cutting corners really is not something that's allowed in this space because there's very specific written code.

The ICC prescribes certain codes for both residential and non-residential building. And railing has to has to meet or exceed certain requirements. And there's no way to cheat that.

Oftentimes we're forced up against an uncomfortable position that we have to then, you know, work with the the builder and the owner and the architect and working through some of these details because there was budget overruns. I can't tell you there's a project I've ever worked on in all my years that came in on budget. I mean, there's always there's always scope creep or something to that effect that causes the budget to go slightly awry.

And and that just happened. So but locking things down and making sure that we have that conversation up front will yield the best possible project outcome. And railing has, I think, a little more right, a little more specifics behind that code side because of it being a guardrail and height issues and restrictions and you have inward force, downward force for decking.

It's you know, it's more of a span and most of them will fit the span. So from my side, Jeff, you know, it's really more of probably just more aesthetics. And just assuming you're going to pick something as it looks nice and pretty.

It may not be either on the low high. It could be on the low side or the high side. It's just there's a lot inside that decking world that's somewhat cluttered, you know, between boards that have the bottom chiseled out where it's more hollow to cap composite.

You have PVC broad range there. And even inside those those categories, there's a broad range. So really just consulting with your manufacturer as a consulting partner and lean on them to help you with those.

I think it's just it's so important because we love the design space. And it's so important to get these projects built and looking correct, you know, and looking like they were meant to be in that space. But at the same time, there's nothing worse than seeing it subbed out at the end and it all goes awry because, you know, that planning wasn't done on the front end.

So how can design professionals better focus on that outdoor living space in their design? Well, I think by just utilizing manufacturers in general, right? You know, be open to it, have people come in on a regular. I mean, I have a local firm in town that I meet with probably at least every quarter, and it may not even it may be for continuing ed or just to catch up with just one item. But they use it as a PK session, right? A product, not product knowledge session where, you know, they're just getting up to speed, you know, build those relationships, reach out to the people that you gravitate towards that are that are solving problems for you and then maintain that relationship.

Right. It's important. It's important because, again, you can't know it all, right? You have to lean.

You have to lean on people. I agree. There's there's way too many things that architects and design professionals in general and in our in my involvement with the design professionals, I work with architects.

I work with landscape architects. I'm even seeing the opportunity to work with interior designers because today we're seeing we're seeing the transition from exterior to interior, interior to exterior with our railing styles, our infills in particular cable is a really popular design infill today for railing. So, again, working with us, asking questions.

We're here to give advice and guidance. It's the best sale I've made is sometimes the sale I don't make. I'm not really interested in if it's not the right fit.

I'm going to tell you it's not the right fit. I, you know, just was doing something earlier today with it, with one of our customers, and I said, just don't feel right about that. And it's this is maybe the way you should take a look at at this option instead of the way you were going.

It's really just giving them the guidance and the and earning the respect of that design professional. You're speaking my language. The Trusted Advisor University, I think, is is the best route to go.

Your integrity and your and your relationships matter so much more than that quick sale. And I, you know, I couldn't agree more with that take. Most of my career, I've been working directly with architects, but I've told them.

So at the end of the day, I want to put my head down at night and sleep comfortably because I know I told you the right thing. Yeah, great. Gray hair and experience are helpful, right, Jeff? But it's not it's nothing without integrity every time.

I can say that because I do have some gray hair. So that is that is fair. I have no idea what you speak of.

I don't either. I don't know what you're talking about, Jason. So what are some really cool design ideas that we can use to maximize outdoor spaces? It's it's so varied.

I mean, I think I think it's a great question. And I think if we can give a teaser out for maybe future, you know, for future podcasts, our goal would be to bring in, you know, professionals where they can we can lean on them for some specifics and then get them excited about how they solve those problems. Jeff wanted Jeff and I both wanted really to probably have a whole a whole entire podcast on just solving unique problems.

And I think that's my favorite part, right? I just I enjoy problem solving. And that part of my job, I really, really enjoy where, you know, I gave Jeff an example, one of those that I worked on years ago with, they had problems with setbacks, right? They couldn't attach a deck to a house because it inhibited setback, you know, regulations. And so they were too close to this to the property line.

So they said, OK, fine, we'll think outside the box. They pushed the deck all the way to the back of the lot. They parked it right on the setback lines and they made a nice little path right back to the doorway that had steps going back into their house.

They didn't they follow the law, right? They stay within code regulations. But I love hearing innovative ways to solve problems like that. And so that would be our goal for a future podcast.

If we can put a teaser out there, it would be to solve some problems and just get examples from other design professionals and other contractors that have dealt with this from, you know, for their entire career. Again, there's so many different things that we've talked about. And we want to introduce to the design professional community about outdoor living.

Lighting has become a very popular topic, for example. It could be as simple as just a little we call accessory lighting that may go on on a riser to provide a lighted path of egress. That's the technical term.

But there's many other options for lighting today from from brightness to intensity to color, all of the all of the different aspects. Working with the architects right now on a project where we are providing the lighting for a ADA ramp, a path of egress. And we have to measure out the appropriate foot candles of lighting so that we meet the ADA requirement for this path of egress.

So, again, there's so much more than just putting a light on a post or under rail lighting, as it would be. There's some really unique things. Jay and I spoke about kitchens and Jay can speak far more far more detail about kitchens and and appliances that go outside.

And some of the cabinetry, other accents like fire and water. We see so many different things. I've been recently involved in a very large project that for a railing aspect of it, but they tied in virtually everything.

They had a dive pool. They had fire accents. They had waterfalls.

It was just it was just an amazing project. How do you bring the indoors to out? I spent most of my career in the window and door fenestration industry. Large opening, multi-slide or bifolding doors allowing that transition from interior to exterior screening systems are very popular today.

The seasonality of the space Jay mentioned earlier about heating. And how do you how do you especially in the northeast and maybe the north central parts of the United States, even the northwest? How do we get the most mileage out of that outdoor space and do providing warmth and heat? And and how do we tie that all together? There's a lot of unique aspects of that. And I feel I have a lot of excitement about the opportunities to bring some of these ideas and maybe quantify the ideas for the design professional community in the coming months.

I know we talked about building this out over six to eight months with different episodes and more to come. Yeah, I can't tell you how excited I am just listening to you talk about it. Some of the building materials that we're going to talk about in these episodes are stellar.

You know, I don't think there's anything better than a great evening outdoors. I mean, and especially with an environment that's curated and thoughtful and intentional. There's a lot here that we're going to uncover and it's going to be great.

How do we balance aesthetic and functionality? I love the ADA example. Is there anything else that we can consider? Well, I think, again, it's back to kind of back to budgeting and price point. You know, it's aesthetics and functionality are wonderful.

But if you can't budget it properly, then everything else is compromised. So, again, I don't want to go full circle back on that, but it is just important to understand how they do play together. And you can find some very nice products that are in that price point side.

So, you know, just be open minded. Again, find someone who you can lean on to give you some real good consultative advice. And there are price points.

I mean, for example, decking can go anywhere from that like high to $3 range of foot. Typically decking is priced in foot all the way to right now over $9. You know, and so even in that lower three range, you can find some very aesthetically pleasing products that are functional.

They just have different, you know, different means, I guess, to the ends. You know, cap composite has a composite matrix inside, and that's primarily made up of some type of wood flour or wood particle. And then they have a great resilient cap that goes over top.

And conversely would be PVC. PVC has no organics inside of them. And the two, you know, are very distinctly different.

PVC does much better near water. And then cap composite would have a lower price range to get into those lower budget, you know, potential projects. So just important to know, you know, people think decking, and they probably think of maybe two or three names nationwide, but there's a much larger range even inside of any of those categories that people need to be aware of.

Agreed. Where I go with the aesthetic, really manufacturers, I give presentations regularly. In fact, I just did a national webinar yesterday for design professionals.

And I speak about aesthetics. And the manufacturers today in our category, and I speak of all the ones in the aluminum railing category, we all have a variety of different profiles and infills. And that kind of speaks to the aesthetic.

Functionality for me, ease of installation, and I speak a little bit further down channel with the contractor, or sometimes we even have a do-it-yourselfer that wants to put product, you know, install product. But most importantly for me when it comes to functionality is the topic of safety and making certain that the railing that is being selected for you meets or exceeds those codes that I spoke about earlier. That's very critical.

There's some manufacturers that will lead with new product and then bring the testing in later. There are other manufacturers that test first and then put product down on the market. So it's very important to make certain that you go into the selection of the product with your eyes open and willing to understand what's out there and ask proper questions.

I think that's a very critical part of that design and construction aspect of the project and then helping you to set the appropriate budgets. Jay brought a lot of information regarding decking. I've been with Jay and some of his colleagues, and it's overwhelming to me on how much there is out there with regards to decking and the like.

And it's very good to have all that knowledge. And to add one point, Jeff, also to your point on code restrictions and just code regulations, you know, making sure that you're up to speed on your local municipality, right? There's folks that will follow the 2018 code, they'll follow the 2021 code, obviously we're in 2024, but there's usually always a lag there. And then there's some municipalities who are very, you know, more forward thinking and they're ahead of the game and they want to adopt the closest, you know, and most recent, you know, regulation.

And if you're post, especially on railing, right? Because if your post connections and your overall code ratings don't match, a lot has changed. The 2024 code has required a lot more stringent, you know, requirements than what they've had in the past. So just being aware of those is very helpful.

But to your point, Jeff, you know, everybody's working with a company who's testing that stuff ahead of time and staying ahead of the curve instead of being behind the curve. Right. And again, that's so critical.

We run into a couple of counties throughout the United States that have really ramped up their review on outdoor living. We're working with them very closely to make sure that we're speaking the same language. In fact, I have meetings next week to discuss some aspects of this conversation that we're having now.

Again, it's important. We all have the same concerns. It's just how that knowledge is shared from authorities having jurisdiction, the code officials and the manufacturers, so that we understand that we're all working on the same goal is to create a safe space, whether it's indoors or outdoors.

And that's our hope here today, too, is to get that information out to as many people as possible. With this series and the upcoming episodes, I think that we're going to be able to create a great knowledge share point for everyone to, you know, have some great takeaways. Who are some of the key players that are involved in the outdoor living space? Is there somebody that normally takes charge or takes the lead, or is it a collaborative design experience? Getting downstream, you know, getting in front of designers, whether it be the design professionals at the AIA Institute, you know, or it's just simply a deck builder who obviously needs help and needs an understanding, whether it be maybe a deck visualizer.

That's a whole other discussion maybe for another podcast we had discussed. But the key players really, I think, is just, again, folks that are helping to get to those key influencers, which would be the architectural community and the contractor base, you know, that contractor, landscape, you know, architect, but installer, contractor, landscape architect. Training, educating, being out on job sites, working with contractors and other tradesmen to make certain that we raise the level of knowledge of how product goes together, how it works, what to do, what not to do, tips and tricks as it would be for installation.

Time is money. Product today, it's very important to have a product that's easy to install, especially with some of the more complicated infills. I mentioned cable before.

Some of the manufacturers out there today have cable. Not all are created equal, and we make certain that we are working to answer the needs of the people that are installing them. Again, it could be a contractor that has 20 years of experience or it could be a homeowner for the first time.

We want to make certain that the product is easily understood and how to install it, and more importantly, have the resources available if, in fact, they have a question or a need in the field that we can answer. Speaking of answering questions, would you like to introduce our next expert guest? Laura, I'd like to introduce to you Mike Boudry, the founder and executive director of the North American Deck and Rail Association, also known as NADRA. He is an industry thought leader and organizer, making certain that all parties involved in building and design of outdoor living environments have a place to communicate, to advance safety, innovation, and excellence in the outdoor living space.

Hi, Mike. How are you? I'm real good, Laura. How are you? I'm great, and I'm so excited to have you here.

Could you tell us a little bit about your role with the North American Deck and Rail Association and the organization's mission? Sure. I'd be glad to. So the North American Deck and Railing Association started back in 2004.

It kind of came together where we needed a voice. This was when CCA lumber was being discontinued and ACQ lumber was coming in. And the manufacturers of fasteners were pointing at the chemical companies and the chemical companies were pointing at the lumber companies.

And we were just trying as deck builders to be like, look, just what do you want us to use and how do we do it? And so we kind of had a problem across the country that pulled us together. You usually have to have something that kind of brings you together. And that's what it was.

And we were at Deck Expo. It was the second one ever back in 2004. And 19 guys put 100 bucks in a hat.

And I was holding the hat. So I ended up being the guy, right? So after about three or four years, we put everything together. We had it set up as a nonprofit, 501-66.

And basically, I was ready to move on and go back to building decks. And they said, Mike, if you don't keep doing this, this isn't going to fly. So I begged my wife to support me.

And she did. So here we are 21 years later. And I would tell you that we're an overnight success, because it literally was a very long struggle until about COVID, right? And COVID was kind of the perfect storm.

It made us embrace technology. We really learned about how to do Zoom and talk to everyone. And from then on, it really took off.

And so NADRA has become pretty much the voice of the deck and railing industry. And we're expanding into all of outdoors. So we have the pool and spa people we're working with.

And really, our mission is to raise the bar, right? When you look at other industries like electricians and plumbers, they're all certified and well-respected. When you're a deck builder, it's kind of like, you got a truck and a toolbox? Well, you must be a deck builder. More than that, right? I mean, these are people's lives.

They're 20, 30 feet up in the air sometimes. And how is it being built? And is it being built to code? So our goal was to help raise the bar. And now, with over 1,500 members across the country, we're growing.

We represent manufacturers, distributors, dealers, the contractors, inspectors, architects, engineers. It's crazy how many people actually, how many hands touch what goes on outside on the deck. And so we've been really blessed to just have such a wonderful group of people.

And our mission is to not only bring it all together, but makes decks safer. And that's a big thing for us. And we'll talk about that as we progress.

But deck safety is a very big part of our mission. So how does NADRA support the outdoor living industry? Well, basically, by bringing everyone together, we started to come up with, OK, what are the codes in this state? What are the codes in that state? What are you guys doing to solve this problem or that problem? And then, really, through creating a peer group, we brought, in many ways, the industry together. I can tell you 15 years ago, most deck builders didn't know what a rep was.

And a rep had no idea how to find a deck builder. And now, oh my goodness, they know each other on a first-name basis. They help each other all across the country.

We work with those manufacturers regularly, coming up with testing products, having real field testing, not just being done in a factory or being done in a lab. It's, what did the guys come back with? And like, well, it sounded good, but, man, we can't do it in the field. So, so much of that has happened because, like other industries, we're not creating anything new here, right? We're just looking at other industries and saying, what are good programs there and how can we bring them into the outdoor living industry? So, I'd love to tell you I'm super smart and come up with all these great ideas.

No, I'm just basically looking at what's going on and trying to bring that together into the outdoor living industry. So, those are some of the ways we do it. Yeah, the space has definitely grown.

And I can tell you, that was, you were the first person when Jeff and Jason got together, they were like, we have to get him on because you're making such a big impact with this organization and connecting people together. And so, it's really inspirational to see what you're doing. What are some of the biggest challenges that's facing the outdoor living industry today? It's almost like, it's almost like we don't have them.

It's like, how can we keep up with demand, right? When COVID hit and people realized they could stay home and were forced to stay home, they wanted to have a better space at home. So, the whole idea of whether it was a pool or a fence or landscaping or a golf green or a deck, how can we bring in a hot tub and a spa? It's amazing how it just took off. Now, that's not to say outdoor living wasn't growing all along these last 20 years, but it certainly accelerated it.

And now, it's almost like the sky is the limit. We run an annual competition. It's actually coming up in the first week of January.

Everyone comes into Florida. We meet at Clearwater. We have this incredible awards for all kinds of different levels of decks and pricing of decks.

And every year, I look at these. I mean, we're talking thousands of different projects. And I go, how can it ever get better than that? And then the next year, they come up with new ideas.

And so, I just think that the new technologies and the new materials that are coming into the industry are allowing the builders to be more creative than ever. So, I think we're just going to see more and more growth in this area. And it's just exciting to watch.

Have you seen the building codes and regulations shift also with this new focus on the outdoor living space? When we started, literally, the deck code section of the ICC, and this is the IBC, so whether it's commercial or it's residential, it was like two pages. And we were like, you know, there's a lot more to decks than this. And now, look at the decking section.

I can tell you, we started in 2008, was our first one. And then it was 12, 15, 18, 21, now 24. We're literally working on 27 codes as we speak.

It takes that long to go through the, quite frankly, bureaucracy of all this stuff. But it's amazing. Now, you look at it, it's got an entire section.

And it's really about just making sure we're doing things safer. And it's not that we didn't try to build great decks before. We just didn't simply have, you know, the fasteners and the connectors and the understanding of the materials that we have now.

So we don't want over-regulation. Believe me, code is supposed to be minimum, right? It's supposed to be based on affordability. And how can I build it and still be safe, right? And so we cover code.

And NADRA literally is the voice now at these hearings. We collaborate with all kinds of organizations ahead of time, see what they're planning to bring into code, talk to them ahead of time so we don't get there and like get blindsided by somebody who wants to do something really radical, right? And then you have to fight it. Who wants to do that? So by kind of being the organization that's allowing collaboration, it has really built the brand of NADRA into kind of a voice.

And believe me, it's not NADRA. It's the members and the people that have gotten involved. These are all PhD guys and wonderful builders that are just, they're given a place where they can communicate with one another.

And that's why we're now so effective in the code arena. Well, that's a remarkable advocacy story. You know, I don't know that I come across that very often, so I really appreciate it.

Besides code, just keep this in mind, like code's great, but then there's the best construction practices, right? Like, okay, code is really important and it is a minimum. But, you know, there's also, what else can you do? Could you go above code? Yeah, you can. So when you start looking at some of the things we're doing now, some of these areas are so new, whether it's, you know, composite infused with glass with a steel framing or whether it's aluminum framing.

There's so many new products coming that we didn't really use before. And then even wood, wood is enhancing. They're getting better all the time.

So it's just really, really fun to watch. And then, so best construction practices are also a big part of what we do. We educate on both levels, from a code standpoint and then also a best construction standpoint.

What are some of your favorite trends that you're seeing right now? It's no longer your grandfather's deck. You know, when we look back and put a 10 by 15 on the back of the deck, you know, and it would be a big wooden rail and there'd be like pickets in it. It would look like a jail cell, right? Now it's so creative and you're literally creating rooms within the outdoor living.

People always talk about, you know, we want the indoors outdoors. Well, they do. And so there's more pergolas.

And in many parts of the country, if you don't have some kind of roofing system, it's just too damn hot, right? So many. And then these louver sections, my goodness, you could hit a button and all of a sudden it opens up when you have sunlight or you can close and it's a dry below system. And then, of course, fire pits and hot tubs and outdoor kitchens.

Um, it's just so fun to watch that it's really creating so much more enjoyment for the home. My personal thing is I got eight grandkids, right? And when I watch them on their stupid devices, it makes me crazy, right? And when they're around the when they're with the family and they're around the fire pit and they're cooking s'mores and dad's on the grill, right? It's like, I just love the fact that we're getting back to family and we're putting down electronics and we're giving them opportunities to do things that that we need to have. We need to be us.

Yeah, I can't agree with you more on that point. That's I think that's such a fundamental thing. And some of my favorite memories are on decks and in outdoor living spaces.

I mean, there's such a draw and they're so communal, you know, and that's such a great, a great aspect of what they have. I really love the glass. Anytime they integrate glass, you can see the sunset over an ocean.

I mean, that's just, oh, that was so smart. And not only glass, not only glass, like think about the openings now, you know, a French door, the French door, a sliding door, sliding door. But now it's like, hey, we're going to create this door that's literally 20 feet long.

That's going to fold into itself. And it's a beautiful day. So now the outside is inside, right? Yeah.

Oh, and then listen, we don't want we want to look at the mountain or the ocean or just, you know, the backyard. I don't want to have necessarily a railing system. Can I have glass? Now we can have glass.

You touch the glass and all of a sudden it goes opaque. So let's say it's by the hot tub. Right.

And, you know, I have teenage girls. I don't want everybody looking in bikinis. So you press this thing and all of a sudden it's private.

It's private. Well, or you open it up and it's glass. Or how about this? You can literally put designs etching into the glass and then it's lit from below and it shows whatever that is.

So whether commercially you're in a restaurant, you're doing logos or whether it's at home when you're doing, see, it is just. And who knows where this is going to go? It just keeps getting better and better. Curved glass, right? Like actually now they're curving the decks.

Imagine curved glass section. So it's just every time I think there's no way this can get better. Somebody comes up with something creative and it's just like, wow, who would have thought of that? Yeah, it is definitely a wow factor aspect of design.

So how do you educate on all these new trends? How do you help the consumers and the contractors to know about outdoor living? So we've created kind of a couple of things. One, the Nadja blog, right? You can go into the Nadja blog, a consumer, anybody, and you can look up whatever. Let's say you're looking up what are the local codes? What are new in code? You put that word in there.

We've been doing this now 20 years. It's probably the largest searchable database out there. And I'd love to say, wow, AI.

Dude, this was before AI. Like this is happening because we were just putting everything in there, right? And then you can click on manufacturers. You're looking for decking and all of a sudden there'll be Trex and Azek and Fiberon and Wolf and whomever, right? And you can get right to it rather than having to surf the whole net to try to find each one, which is fine.

There's links once you get there. If you want to go directly to that, you can, right? But then you'll also see articles about trends and just pretty much anything to do with outdoor now is beginning to grow within that Nadja blog, right? And then of course, we have manufacturers portals so they can put on whatever they want. You'll often hear in construction, it'll refer to manufacturers installation specifications, right? Our goal is to get all of them up within this website.

That's going to take time, right? But at least it has a link to the website so you can try to find it. Even on Nadja, it's like, I can't even tell you how many, I would say tens of thousands of pages now, right? It's like, how can you find anything? So as we get more and more sophisticated, you're going to be able to go to one place, find the information you're looking for. And that's our goal.

Not only to help the industry professionals, but to help the consumers because consumers are more educated now than ever. And we want to continue that. We want to give them a place to find that information.

I love that resource catalog idea. That's fabulous. Anytime that you can streamline research and make people land in the right places because the search sometimes can be so, you go down so many wrong turns.

So how do you- Yeah, we try to make that simple, you know? You can just go to the website, you can find most of the stuff you're looking for. That's awesome. So how do you see the future of outdoor living spaces? So I got a personal goal.

I look at what goes on and outside we're very lucky, right? Because in most parts of the country, topography kind of demands a deck, right? You know, certain parts of the country, it's flat. You can walk right out. But in many parts of the country, you have topography changes.

So you're going to come out of your deck first. So that means we get the customer first. So why aren't we taking on the responsibility of making it easy for the customer and bringing all of outdoors to them? They don't want to have to go after you to a pool company and then a landscape company and then a fence company and a lighting company.

So we're really in a really great position as far as manufacturers and dealers and contractors and designers, architects, to be that all-encompassing up front. So a personal goal that our board of directors has and NADRA and the membership is, all right, how do we help bring pool and spa, fencing, lighting, landscape, and then, oh my gosh, they're building greens in the backyard now, right? You have your own golf green. It's crazy what's going on.

We want to try to bring all of those other associations together so that you're not having to go everywhere. You know, they'll still do their thing. God knows I can't do fencing, right? Let's fencing do fencing.

But let's create something where we're all working together because once the consumer has someone they trust and they've built a relationship, they don't want to do it over and over and over again. So that industry professional can build those relationships, become the facilitator. They can all do their thing, right? But it's just going to make the experience that much more enjoyable for the consumer.

Well, I love that too. The connection and collaboration point, I think, is really key to what you're doing and making sure that there's cohesion amongst planning and ideas and access too. Nobody's in a silo.

And that's, I think, one of the greatest things that's happening right now. I see it in so many places where we're breaking down these silos and having everybody come together. And I think it's impactful.

So do you have any closing thoughts for us today? Yeah, we can't close. I have like so much more to cover. I have a big list here that I started.

Wait a minute. If I had to close, I would close with this. The innovation that is happening so incredibly fast now is not something you want to miss.

You don't want to, you know, unfortunately, materials are expensive. It's not just like throwing it up like you did before, right? It's an investment. And you want to get it right the first time.

You don't want to go, oh, geez, you know, I got to change that, right? So I would just say that I believe the consumers need to do their research. They need to make sure that they see ideas. One quick thing.

The years and years of our tech competition is on the website. So you can see thousands of projects and be like, oh, I really like that railing. But I like that.

I like that tech over there. Look at these steps. And you kind of put together your perfect idea.

So when you meet with a designer or your builder, you have a much better idea of what you want. And that's something I'm really, I really encourage consumers to do, you know, to get an idea of what they want. So when they do meet with a builder, they have some good ideas of what they're looking for.

Yeah, something to come to the table with. Yeah. And then lastly, I'm just, I'm excited.

Listen, this is nothing special. I'm really more of a facilitator than anything else. I just love bringing people together and then watching what happens.

And I'm excited for these next years when we start bringing the other associations together. And then, yeah, then I'm looking forward to spending a bunch of time with my grandkids and enjoying my deck. That's a great plan altogether.

And I would love to talk to you again in a couple of years or in the next season and see what new growth and change you've seen. Because I think there's a lot that you're doing here and it's really impactful. And I'm excited for the future of the outdoor living space, really.

We're just so blessed to work with so many amazing companies and people. So yeah, we love it. We consider Nodger kind of an extended family.

And when we get together, it really is like that. I can tell you a million things with programs we've created. Nothing is more beneficial to the members than the other members.

That's where they learn. You know, that peer-to-peer is like, Mike, you're great, but shut up. I want to talk to so-and-so.

It's wonderful to see that because that's really where the magic happens. Yeah, that collaboration is, you can't replace it with anything else. I think that we went away from talking to each other there for a minute.

And I feel like there's a flourishing of that again where everyone's like, okay, okay, okay. We want to hang out and learn from each other now. And that's really cool.

And you know what else? It's not where most people would think that. I mean, we have areas in New Jersey and Atlanta where we have, let's just say 50 builders in the same market area, right? And you'd think, oh, they'd be so competitive and they're going to not like this guy. It's actually the opposite.

That's cool. Who could you talk to that would be more in tune to your own lifestyle and the other families than someone doing the same thing? And what's happened is they've gotten together and said, you know what? I can't handle that job. That's more at your level.

Let me send this customer to you. Or, hey, you know what? That's just a little bit, I don't want to do the fencing as well, but how about you do that? And so that's cool. And no one ever saw that coming.

And I can tell you that people, they're being invited to weddings. They're being invited to bar mitzvahs. They've really become really true friends.

And that's the biggest gas I get out of everything. Yeah, what a community. All right.

That's very cool. Well, thank you so much for having me. I wish you tons of success with this show.

It's so great that people like you guys are out there doing this. Yeah. Anytime we can help, please call on us.

Like I said, we don't, I just know a lot of great people, so I can certainly help point you in the right direction. Well, that's great. I'm into that.

They're really the smart ones. Understood. I think you had a great vision though, and I'm glad you held the hat.

All right, Laura. Thanks so much for your time. Okay, now.

What a memorable guest. I really enjoyed talking to Mike, Jeff, and Jason. Let's get right back into the conversation.

The only thing that you might be saving is the illusion of cost, you know, lowering your costs. But when you don't have knowledge of product and the means and methods of how to get product to the job site, what did you really save, you know? And again, Jay had an excellent example that he shared earlier today on a conversation about a client in the Midwest finding a product and now trying to get it from the East Coast to the Midwest for this project and trying to balance it all out on time and in budget. And it just doesn't work that way all the time.

If it does, you're lucky. It's been my experience. Yeah, right.

No, I mean, buying stuff in bulk and truck is great, right? We'd love to ship you a truckload of material from direct from the factory. But the reality of it is if you need, which is always going to happen in our business, right? You're going to need those onesie twosies. And how do you get a fill-in product, whether it be three deck boards or eight deck boards or two sections of railing into an area where you have no trucking, you have no real clean distribution.

So it is an old system. It is very efficient at what it does. And there's a reason why it's still around.

It's extremely efficient to break down multi-skewed products into smaller skewed, obviously, orders and get them to you in a reasonable fashion. Most good distributors are going to distribute in an area two or three times a week. And having that consistency, reliability, right? It's cash on the ground.

Contractors need to finish jobs. Architects need to finish jobs that they're working on to get paid and they don't get paid unless they're finished. So everybody loves the lure of buying in bulk and getting those discounts.

But I can tell you, you're exactly right, Jeff. It is an illusion because if you can buy in bulk and you can magically pick the color you're going to need and never have to have any info later on, fair. But that's a complete rarity.

It's just, it's not worth the cash on the ground. It's not worth tying up your cash for. So it is an older system.

The two-step is, but it does work very, very efficiently. It works really well, mainly because, you know, you can't just snap your fingers and get a product somewhere overnight if you're waiting on a truck to get there that you don't have the means for trucking. So it's logistics, really good logistics meets great sales team to Jeff's point, force multiplier, you know, add it all up and you can get product very effectively to jobs and let dealers, you know, finish projects where they now don't also have to sit on all that inventory because there's eight colors and 14 SKUs.

And when you start multiplying those SKUs together, they add up real fast. You'd have to have massive amounts of sales and a sales team on your own end to make it efficient. And it's just, it doesn't work.

It just, it really is an illusion. So great question. So then you all are sitting on that piece of information, but how do we get that to the consumers? How can consumers be better educated about the possibilities that encompass outdoor living? Great question, great question.

Whenever I train contractors or talk to architects, I always ask them, ask whoever you're buying from, if it's a dealer, right? Lumber dealer, a one stepper, ask them when their distribution comes to you so you know when your days get there and know what your distributor stocks. If you're gonna do a special order, know that it's gonna probably be a three to five week lead time, right? If you order something that distribution has on the ground, it's delivered to you twice a week in most markets, in some cases, three. So just knowing what your distributor locally has as a design professional or a contractor and installer is extremely important for finishing jobs in a timely manner.

So then how should the owners or clients consider planning when they're looking at an outdoor living project? Well, I think just determining what colors are stocked and what ones aren't, right? What is a stock product versus non-stock, right, Jeff? Asking questions up front, making informed decisions about their wants and needs for their outdoor space. It's sad that we get into projects where they have a certain idea in mind, a color in mind or what have you and all of a sudden they're up against the, they gotta get their project done and a color that's not stocked in the distribution channel has to be ordered, we refer to it as made to order product categories and there's a three or four week lead time to that. By the time it gets to market and now that's up against the clock, they can't get their CFO and all of a sudden they're sacrificing their goal of having this particular look or style because they didn't properly plan and proper planning is always the keystone of any project.

And I'll parlay off that too, Jeff, because it's so important to set the right expectation, right? We see that all the time and this is happening. This is something that I would say is a massive trend that I've seen over the last five plus years, 10 years, as these products have gone from just a deck, just a 16 by 12 or a 16 by 20 and a basic handrail to now a truly an addition of your house that can utilize that outdoor space, those expectations have gone through the roof. Rightly so, you're spending, you went from 25 grand as an average to now 50 or 80.

Of course your expectations are gonna go there but you have to temper that. It's not a rocket ship. It's still susceptible to the freeze and thaw cycles in some markets, it's still susceptible to weather, special order delays, there's timing there.

So to Jeff's point, just tempering expectations is really, really important. And I think I would only add to that, when we talk to contractors, I love training contractors and it comes back to me asking them, who here's a salesperson? And I think a lot of contractors, they don't always view themselves as a salesperson and sometimes sales gets a bad rap or maybe a negative stigma, but it's just persuading and influencing somebody as a consultant. So I always try to tell them, you have to temper those expectations.

If you oversell it, you're probably going to also have more problems on your hands. You're not being upfront as a consultant to talk about the pros and the cons. There's no perfect product.

Feel confident knowing that there's pros and cons and that just takes somebody that's again, in the professional arena to help walk you through what the right product is for your situation. Correct. Because durability is huge, right? Those products that are going in and outdoor living spaces, they have a high call for durability and that's a lot riding on that.

And it's not something I think that we can continue to compromise on, just saying, well, let's not make an outdoor living space because I think it's pretty clear, would you say that integrating health and wellness into an outdoor living design is like key, right? There's a real need for our mental health, our physical wellbeing to be able to be outside and to create these spaces for occupants where they can be healthy. Wouldn't you say? Agreed, agreed. I oftentimes talk about in my presentations with design professionals about the life cycle assessment of products and meeting the longevity, the maintenance and the repair of said product.

And again, that's for the entire outdoor space. I mean, what is that life cycle assessment? We're talking about a substantial investment. It was back to Jay earlier, he said, 30 years ago, it wouldn't be out of the question for his father to take the deck boards out and flip them and repaint them and reuse them again.

I get that and we're not doing that anymore today. There's a lot of choices out there, far more than 30 years ago, making informed, educated decisions, sharing that knowledge with the homeowner or end user client, could be a commercial installation. Commercial is a whole different, non-residential commercial is a whole different aspect.

We're looking at just a use factor, tenfold. We oftentimes speak with commercial clients that are designing or architects that are designing outdoor living spaces for commercial entities, hospitality type things. And we look at the use factor of that material and it's very important to make right decisions upfront.

And sometimes you end up spending a little bit more. Coastal applications, we see a tremendous amount of opportunity along the East Coast today and down into the Gulf as we expand in the Southeast markets. Manufacturers require within a mile of the coast, coastal waters or brackish waters for that matter, an upgraded finish.

And having those conversations with the end user, because you're setting expectations. They love to use product right along, cable product, for example, stainless steel cable. I said, stainless steel cable still was going to rust and they look at me, I said, it just stains less than other materials.

I mean, you still have maintenance and it's describing what maintenance is involved with that to make sure that their expectations are met, not just the initial 30 days or 60 days, but two years from now, 10 years from now, that the product has met their expectations. And we spend a lot of time making sure that they understand the need for maintenance, especially with the proper lubricating or oiling of the cables so that they don't rust and or corrode and the like. So it's very important to have that knowledge going in there.

Setting expectations is key. No, I can't agree more as a beach kid. I grew up in a beach town and you know the difference between somebody that took care of their materials and ones that didn't.

There's so much outdoor living in those kinds of places and people can get hurt if you don't maintain those products well, that is for sure. And the liability factor is huge. Oh gosh, it can be really, especially for commercial spaces where the outdoor living space is the draw that gets people to stay for the weekend or come for the dinner or whatever.

It's a huge deal. So what are some emerging products that we're seeing right now in the outdoor living space? We covered a broad range of that, right? I mean, like Jeff mentioned and we'll tease the rest of the audience with giving them hopefully other manufacturers and categories that will go a little more specific on down the road. But fire, water, heating elements.

I had a company who put in, this is kind of cool, they had on a deck, they had a second story deck and outside of the walking space, outside their sliding glass door, they have this system now where you can get its impact glass and you build it as almost a see-through, pass-through to get daylight down through there. To add sun below your deck. Really cool wow factor.

I mean, you're walking on top of air, it looks like, when it's clean. But it really, the sky's the limit. And I think what's happening is, and I hope I'm right with this trend.

Nobody has a crystal ball, but I hope I'm right. I'm hoping that people are just trading some of their disposable income in for some of their material possessions to spend more money in a space that is giving them happiness, right? There's only so much happiness your car is gonna give you. But if we're outside and we're actually enjoying our home in an outside environment, I just think it's a better use of your money.

That's just my opinion. But I hope my trend is right. And you're seeing that, just you're seeing it blossom into Jeff and I's point.

I would have never thought, Jeff, maybe you can prove me wrong, right? 30 years ago, if you would have said someone's just spent 80 to 100 grand on an outdoor living project, I said, you're crazy. But I think it's for the good, right? I think that people, you only have so much money to go around. But if you're gonna utilize that, we know in America, we have a happiness problem.

I don't think, and if that can help alleviate some of that and people are happier, that's a great thing. With the cost of housing, the cost of money, mortgages, for example, people are now investing instead of trying to move up to the next home. We're seeing, because it might be out of the price range, we're seeing people now are making that investment into the additions to their home.

It could be outdoor living. It could be an addition to their house to expand for an in-law suite or what have you. We're seeing more of that investment going back into the home.

Outdoor living has certainly been, this sector has been certainly benefited by that, that thought process. We're seeing incremental growth into different infills, be it rod, be it cable, be it glass, be it what have you, the next trend. Screening, lighting, cabinetry, kitchens, outdoor cooking.

We mentioned accents like some fire and water, the large opening doors. Commercially speaking, we see a lot of these big swinging doors that now open out onto like a patio, outdoor patio that now provides so much more space. I know of a couple of personal examples.

I used to, like I mentioned, I lived in a beach town and we would get hit by hurricanes pretty frequently. And it would always cause tidal and coastal flooding in the areas that we lived. And I knew someone that took their deck as an opportunity to create protection from flooding in their home.

So they put like sandbags and water infiltration materials in and around their deck and built berms as well. And they actually successfully mitigated flooding in the next hurricane because of some of those outdoor living choices that they made. So I think that there's like just such a comprehensive ability for these spaces to not only offer us health and wellness, but in some cases protection against pretty routine flooding issues.

So I think it's a really great space, but how do the specifications play a role in these outdoor projects? Do you feel like there's enough education on the materials that should be chosen? Could we do a better job? The space, a lot of architects, I feel like maybe they kind of still feel like, think that the category is an afterthought a little bit. I'm not broad brushing this, but I think it's because of how the past was viewed. I think that it was kind of one of those things where again, it was like, if the budgeting has enough in the end, we'll build a deck.

And it's like, no, use part of your budget to actually build that. You may end up- Start with the deck. Right.

I mean, you could, it would hurt. Absolutely. I mean, we would like that selfishly, but of course for happiness factor and just being outside, we know that that trend's there.

So you maybe feel the same way, Jeff, but I feel like it's getting better, getting better, but definitely still I think needs some room for improvement. It's just, it kind of, I see some architects interested in it and some design professionals, and I see others that kind of just view it as kind of like, you know, it's someone else will take it. Like the deck builder will just add that on later, but it shouldn't be viewed that way.

It's really a different space now. It's a space all into its own. And is that part of the vision of this podcast? Just to kind of incorporate this part of design a little bit more into the main event? Yes, yes.

New light to this topic, the outdoor living topic. Jay and I live this every day. We're seeing the opportunities for product and projects.

It's something to be considered. So how do you decide on the guest list? Well, we discussed earlier, and I think that, you know, I think it'll organically happen. And I mean, we have an idea of just being in the industry for so long and, you know, fire, like we mentioned, we know people in the paper space, fire, outdoor grills, you know, kitchen, outdoor kitchen lines, lighting, all those I think are extremely designed.

We have several contacts that we can work through with some visualization that I think with AI could be really a game changer as far as how people can view that outdoor space before they actually even spend the money to do it. So I think organically, it'll unfold on its own. But, you know, we have enough, I think, folks that already lined up at the door, shall we say, to kind of, you know, to be involved with adding, you know, value to this.

And really just getting, really getting the word out and just giving examples of how they've solved problems, neat spaces that they've been able to incorporate, solve challenges with maybe a code. Yeah, we're excited that we definitely aren't any shortage of guests, I think that would be interested to jump on. As you may have noticed, Jeff and I usually aren't lack of words.

Our intention would be this is where we peak as far as what we have to say. And we're not in any shortage of words, but we really just want to bring in our knowledge of the industry and then bring in those experts to let them help to make this a more dynamic presentation and more of a, you know, passing along information than just us, you know, sitting here, you know, waxing. No, and I think that's one of the things that I really, when you guys first, when we collaborated on this idea, it feels like a vendor night, right? Like it's, we're touching so many different materials all at the same time.

You know, I do a lot of course writing and I talk a lot about building products and it's really cool when you get to utilize all of those different products and really have a comprehensive conversation about how we design this well. How do we consider the occupants? How do we consider our budget and our distribution? And I think everybody benefits. There's not a loser in this conversation.

You know, everybody just kind of wins across the board. So, and I think that probably in your experiences over the last few decades, there's gotta be a favorite project that you have. Is there something that sticks out to you that's just really memorable that you would love to share? I would say yes, but we're going to save that for the episodes.

I would like, I would like our, I would like our powder dry. I would, I would love for them, honestly, to be the ones that talk about it because you can see the passion. It's great for us.

We love it. I love honestly to see how they succeed and it really is a partnership. You know, we really value our end users, the design professionals and the contractors.

And I think that that'll be a really good way for them to highlight some of what they have brought to the table. Agreed, agreed. No, I'm excited.

I know that we have some, we have some ideas around bringing in project types and how they've solved, whether it was a site issue or how they created a certain feature or how did they deal with a difficult client, you know, and unrealistic expectations. You know, my background, working in fenestration, some of the projects I worked on in my past, there was sometimes a 36 to 42 month build on some of these custom homes that I worked on. And, you know, I had one close colleague of mine who was a construction manager for some of these high-end residential projects.

I would ask him, I said, you know, everybody's happy day one. You know, when you sign the contract and you put the shovel in the ground for the first day, what happens 36 months from now? Are you still at that same joy? I mean, you know, you really, it's again, it's about setting expectations and partnering with your clients. And I just want to make sure that, you know, we share that and the knowledge that we have, the excitement we have about the industry, hopefully provide value to those who participate in listening to our podcast.

Well, I'm really excited to start this with you guys. And I can't think of two better gentlemen to be a part of this. And I'm just really thrilled about the whole project.

And I look forward to seeing you guys on the next episode. Thanks, Laura. Thank you, Laura.

Appreciate you. See you soon. Elliot and Brad blank.

A huge thank you to our guests who made this show possible building product manufacturers who want to increase their specification opportunities. Please visit spec shaman.com or Ron blank.com. Thanks all for this episode, folks. See you next time.