The Intersection of Design Approaches and Trends in Outdoor Living – Part 1

Outdoor living spaces have become an integral part of residential and commercial design, requiring careful planning and execution to ensure functionality, durability, and aesthetic appeal. This podcast provides design professionals with essential project management strategies to navigate the complexities of outdoor living projects, from initial planning to final installation. Participants will explore key considerations such as balancing client expectations with budget constraints, addressing logistical challenges, and integrating sustainable, regionally appropriate materials. Additionally, the podcast will emphasize collaboration with industry professionals and trusted advisors to optimize project outcomes.

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Transcript

Hello, and welcome to the SpecShaman podcast, the show that explores the world of building product manufacturers, architects and engineers, sustainable design and technology and trends. We engage in thought provoking discussions with renowned experts, industry pioneers and visionaries who are making a significant impact in the construction industry. Join us as we explore groundbreaking ideas, revolutionary concepts, and the latest advancements shaping the built environment.

I hope you enjoy this week's episode. Let's get started. Welcome to the Blueprint of Outdoor Living podcast.

I'm your host, Megan Vipond, and today I'm joined by Jeff Sarovi, Architectural Sales Manager for KeyLink, and Jason Fora, VP of Marketing Development for Wolf Home Products. We also have special guest, Travis Reyes, Sales and Designs Representative with Oasis Pools and Patios. Combined, they have decades of experience in manufacturing and wholesale building materials distribution across various product lines.

Since these three gentlemen bring such a wealth of expertise to the table, today's episode will be part one of a special two-part episode. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, Megan, for having us.

Well, to kick things off, Travis, could you talk about your history in the industry and how you came to be in the role that you're in today? Yeah. Again, Megan, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you guys.

I'm so excited to talk through some of these things with you guys. I'll be honest with you, I started my career out in 2009, but I grew up in a family of builders. I've always been fascinated with building and providing a good service.

I guess maybe in 2019, I identified a huge gap in the market spot and saw an opportunity. When somebody hires a contractor, there's always been this negative feed that, hey, I'm going to get screwed or something like that. I designed a process and put processes in place to minimize that.

It's all based on putting people first, leading, advocating, and communicating with homeowners to ensure that the process throughout building their dream is nothing but exceptional. It's been phenomenal. I've had great success with it, everything from interiors to outdoors.

I'm happy to be here. I'll give you my thoughts on any part of my processes and let's get started. Great, Travis, thank you.

We're excited for you to join us today. When starting an outdoor living space project, what are the key planning steps that design professionals should take to ensure a smooth process from concept to completion? In my opinion, it starts with understanding your homeowner or your client, for that matter. All too often, people contact contractors like me and somebody comes out and gives them an ultimatum, whereas I like to come out and I just give options.

I like to understand what they're trying to do. My initial contact with a homeowner is to gather as much info as I possibly can before scheduling an on-site meeting. What do you want? How are you going to use the space? What's your priorities? Is this an investment property? What's your five-year plan? Or is this your forever home? All of these are key to understanding what I can do to help.

And it's not uncommon for me to ask a homeowner or a client, period, what do you expect of me and what do I need to do to over-deliver? And it starts with discovery, design. I can come up with a desk estimate initially. My process revolves around let me gather all the information that I can get and then let me start on it before I come out on-site because I don't want to be stuck in a notepad when I come out there.

I want to be engaging with my potential client and I want to have all my questions figured out side items. Let me go out here and verify. If I get out on-site, I want to say, hey, have you ever thought about doing something like this? Or these are my concerns here.

What about this? I want to be able to come out and give options versus ultimatums. And then from there, that's when the design process can be refined and I can go back to my desk and I can take everything that I just verified and I can start formalizing a scope of work, details. Now I understand.

Now I met you. I wasn't stuck in my notepad the entire time and then I can turn over an initial proposal a lot quicker. Now how can design professionals manage the balance then between client expectations, budget constraints and material durability in an outdoor design? Well I would say the key to that is education and transparency.

I mean, many homeowners just don't understand long-term costs of cheap materials. For one, like when I present options in terms of investment value, highlighting durability and maintenance alongside with warranties, instead of saying, hey, here's the cheapest option, I say, here's the long-term solution for what's within your budget. And let me explain that a little bit more.

Do you have any questions? Because I don't want to sell somebody anything that isn't going to last. I'm going to put my name behind it. We're going to stand behind manufacturers that help us out in terms of if something were to go wrong.

It's all about value, really. What can I do for you to add value to your property? I don't want you to spend a single dime on anything that I do if I can't lead and advocate for it being worthwhile. I just wanted to add the same thing, Travis.

Part of why we really wanted to have you on here is I always appreciated your approach to discussing budget jobs and giving people options. Options allow you to go down in price based off of someone's budget. And budgets are realistic.

The difference is if you go with the wrong contractor, they will start out with a price point only in mind. And then you end up getting corners cut because they don't understand the proper process. And I think that's really, really important because people do buy on value.

You also don't know what you don't know. So if you can offer me something that I can find is more value, you know, I built my own house 20 years ago and I'm doing an addition now. And I found myself having a budget and also going a little over the budget because there were certain things that I just wanted.

And I'll come up with the money and make it work. But the point is homeowners do the same thing, right? They don't know what they don't know. So if you go in solely going off by price driven proposal, you know, you're really cutting yourself short because you're just not you're not selling and you're not bringing value.

I cannot agree with that more. And that's what I'm getting at with, you know, a lot of contractors will go out and provide ultimatums. Like, hey, here's your quote and here's what we're going to do.

But there's no education. There's no transparency behind it. You know, let's say I always like to come up.

I never ask the budget question to homeowners right off the rip. I always formalize that initial desk estimate because then I can say, hey, here's my starting point. Where do you want to go up, down, sideways? It doesn't matter.

But one thing that's extremely important to me is like, check this out. Look, if your budget, let's say it's fifty thousand dollars for something. I think there's like a I think a lot of homeowners assume that if they tell somebody my budget's fifty thousand dollars, that somebody is going to start at fifty thousand dollars.

That's not how I operate. I want to come in. If your budget is fifty thousand dollars, I want to come in and I want to plan and design a project that that is probably about forty to forty two thousand dollars.

But within planning and designing that project and creating that scope of work, I want to find every issue that I possibly can to eliminate any surprises along the way. I don't want to build jobs off change orders. I want to build jobs and eliminate those surprises.

That way, when something does come up and I say, hey, we are about to install this railing. Would you like to upgrade? This is your last chance. Anything that they do, they can upgrade.

And that's a perfect change order. I don't mind writing those, but I don't want surprises or anything that's going to happen. Listen up and you got to be professional.

We know that there's going to be changes. Make those changes, upgrades, if anything else along the way, because that's how homeowners operate. And I don't want you to give up your vacation this year.

I don't want you to go work overtime just to afford whatever it is that you want. My whole entire goal is to give you everything I possibly can to make that living space phenomenal and everything that you wanted and without disrupting your typical lifestyle or your budget. Absolutely.

So it sounds like a budget is one of the potential setbacks. Are there any other logistical challenges when executing these outdoor projects and how can design professionals help mitigate those setbacks? I think I would say that that it's all about setting expectations. I mean, our biggest logistical issue right now on the East Coast, you know, I'm in Maryland, and I have meetings every Saturday.

This past Saturday we had a meeting and our permit lead time is at 92 days. So we had an hour meeting within my office and it's like, how do we mitigate this? So it's all about setting the expectations ahead of time. And it's like, number one logistical issue is permits.

When do you want to have this job completed? Did you notice that I said, when do you want to have it completed? I didn't ask them, when do you want to start? Homeowners all the time ask, hey, when can you start? I can start tomorrow. I can tear this whole place apart tomorrow. But when do you want to be finished? That's the key.

So I think our biggest logistical issue right now that we're facing is simply permitting. But you also have to consider issues such as material lead times. You know, again, we present options.

Some of our material has to come special ordered. And it's like, you have to focus on guiding the homeowner as far as, hey, when do you want to be done? This is what we're planning. This is how long it's going to take to get this material.

But then again, last year, for example, in the month of April here, and I'm a data freak. I take all kinds of data. But I can tell you last year in the month of April, it rained three to four days out of every single week.

And there's a lot of stuff in the outdoor living space construction that you just can't do because there's too much moisture in the ground, or there's too much of this or too much of that, and you can't work in the rain. And sometimes it's not just a one-day delay. It could be a three- or four-day delay, especially when you're laying hardscaping.

So those are the three things. I would say material lead times, permitting, and of course, your weather is, you can't control it. So with all of these challenges and potential setbacks, how can design professionals effectively collaborate with trusted advisors in the industry to achieve their design goals? Yeah, I mean, collaborating is literally everything.

And it's funny because a lot of people always think that there's some sort of competition between contractor to contractor or anything. And the thing is, nobody knows where to start. You know, I get so many calls that say, hey, I want to build a Taj Mahal, essentially.

And it's like, all right, well, we can't do that next week. We have to plan this. But it's so important.

I find that there's a humongous gap. And I see another great opportunity because it's important to work closely with engineers, especially material suppliers, to ensure that the project is optimized for performance, aesthetics, and longevity. A contractor should never have to operate in isolation.

But by leveraging expertise from different trades, we can create smarter, more efficient solutions. I think there's a huge opportunity for designers in particular to work with different contractors, especially with material selections and budgeting, and making sure nothing is overlooked during the scope of work. I mean, can you imagine? Like, I get plans on my desk throughout the year from architectures and designers and things like that.

And I'm like, I wish we could all formalize a better connection. Because as these design professionals are putting this stuff on paper, there's nothing wrong with having a second set of eyes on anything and saying, hey, what do you think about this? And making sure that even the designer is working for the greater good of their client at that point. Because I can come in and very quickly review some plans and things.

And I'm like, hey, have you thought about maybe doing this instead of this? Or, you know, and it just helps out from everything from material selections to budgeting and things like that before it even hits a contractor's desk. You know, I value relationships so much. And I would, like, for me personally, I would love to see more integration between, you know, designers and contractors that could help everybody for the greater good.

Jeff, I mean, what do you think about that? Thanks, Travis. And we've had, and Jay and I have spoken about trusted advisor relationships in our previous podcast and how important they are. I feel very strongly about the trusted advisory role that I play in the marketplace with architects.

I've only been in the outdoor living space for just a few years, but prior to that, spent nearly 35-plus years in the fenestration side. I still have architects today contacting me about a window or door fenestration-related issue. And it's because of that trusted advisor role that I had created in my relationships with them that they still feel that they can contact me, even though I'm not in that part of the industry today.

It's important for architects, designers, landscape architects, interior designers, contractors, all of us to develop those roles, and those advisory roles, and have advisors come to us and be willing to openly share information back and forth. I think Jay can shed some light on this. I mean, I've reached out to Jay numerous times for things.

And here's the deal. Ego is a big thing in the contracting world. You got to let the ego go, because you need to be able to look at any situation and any issue that you foresee and handle it immediately.

And there's nothing wrong with picking up the phone and saying, Hey, here's what I'm looking at. What do you think about this? It's all collaboration is so important. I call other contractors almost every other day.

And I had a great conversation. Another contractor called me yesterday, and I was on the phone with him for an hour and a half. It wasn't planned.

It wasn't part of my schedule yesterday. But he was telling me what he had going on with a certain project. And it's like, we got to lean on each other and know.

And we could do the same thing in the design industry. Hey, if we're going to design somebody's six-figure backyard, let's get people involved. That doesn't start until you get the right people involved and you let the ego go and put people first.

Jay, what do you think? I would just recommend reaching out. All of your manufacturing partners have contacts in the architectural world. So reach out to your dealer partners.

Those are the folks where you're buying materials from. Ask them who their better architectural design folks are. And ask someone in the space like Jeff and I, where we have connections for 20 years with architects.

We may not have one in every city, but I know that my hometown, I know really well, probably four or five really good architects. And again, collaborating is the key. So that's what they do for a living.

There's a reason why they make good livings in what they do. They're great at bringing products together and making them look good. Contractors aren't always the best at that.

So again, to your point, Travis, collaborating is key. Putting your ego aside and using those trusted advisors to then lean on other people who are better at what they do. Absolutely.

Those are all fantastic points on the upfront, the project management strategy to the side of things. Switching a little bit more to the design approach itself to year-round outdoor spaces, how can design professionals create outdoor spaces that function seamlessly across all four seasons? So you have to be flexible. And I think this is one of those deals like, I could tell you about East Coast, and it's completely different from Midwest or even the West Coast.

But flexibility, integrating the flexibility in your design, like this means incorporating features like maybe a retractable screen, a covered area, maybe heating elements, depending on where you're at. So that space adapts different, you know, to different weather conditions as you use that space throughout the year. If you're in a colder environment or a hotter environment, it's how do I make adaptions through that? Like think of if you go to the beach and you walk down to the water, the water is always coming in towards the beach.

You can anticipate that wave coming in. How do you adapt to it, right? So, and it's the same thing with when you're designing a project. Make, you find out what you got to anticipate and how do you adapt so that it's functional throughout the entire year.

So what role does biophilic design play in enhancing outdoor space usability throughout the year? The idea that humans have that innate connection to nature, incorporating natural elements built into the built environments and how they positively impact well-being, health and productivity is really what biophilic design is all about. It's been popular over the last 10, 15 years. I may be off on my timing, but as Travis mentioned, incorporating natural elements such as plants and greenery, natural materials are very popular in this thought process.

Maximizing views of nature, finding the space with unobstructed views of gardens or just forest water, water body, so on and so forth. Water features, we'll be talking about that in future podcasts. Incorporating water features such as fountains or ponds, streams, introducing that calming sound of water, natural lighting, indoor-outdoor flow.

I think that in many of the designs that we're seeing today in our office, we're seeing a lot of that flow, and I speak to this in my presentation to architects. We see a lot of railing designs complementing each other from that interior to exterior, exterior to interior, as I often say, that interconnectedness with that transition from interior to exterior, as well as the natural environment. Sustainability, incorporating eco-friendly practices, rainwater harvesting, sustainable materials, native plants, and of course, sensory stimulation, taps into multiple senses, sight, sound, touch, even smell.

It all plays into that design, and I think very strongly today, we have a greater sense of biophilic design coming post-pandemic. Jay and I spoke about that previously. These play such an important role in design.

Outdoor space, we're spending much more time outdoors. We find the benefit of that, and I'm glad to see that it's playing a greater role in the design and execution of projects today. We got stuck inside for two years throughout the COVID issue, and everybody went home and wanted to identify the problem that they wanted to fix.

I didn't like this door. Let's open the kitchen. Now, I think people are becoming more like, I don't even want to be inside all day, you know? I mean, can you imagine? So now it's all about extending that outdoor living space, and when you bring in and use the nature around you, it's health and wellness, and there's so many positive things that people get out of that, you know? So I agree 100%, and it's very important to implement that within your designs and options.

Absolutely, and one potential element is heating. So how can heating elements be integrated into outdoor designs without disrupting the aesthetic harmony? Of course, my favorite's going to be fire. I love fire.

I think everybody secretly is a pyro. Everybody loves fire, right? I mean, and it brings people together. There's a, especially in the fall, winter time, there's a fire there.

Everybody congregates around it, and it's always fun. And again, bringing the nature outside, if you go camping and you're within nature, what do you do? You start a campfire, right? So that's one of my favorite ones. I mean, we do everything from fire bowls to fire pits to extreme fireplaces, but one thing that is becoming more and more popular is the outdoor heaters.

They can be discreetly placed in pergolas or pavilions. You have gas heaters. You have electric heaters, infrared heaters, and they put off so much heat that it makes coming outside even better.

And the last thing that I would say that's really growing in popularity, especially on the East Coast and kind of further north where it's a little bit colder at, is the in-ground radiant heating that we're placing under our patios now or within our concrete driveways. Everybody loves their bathroom floors to be heated, and now we've taken that from inside and we've put it outside. And it's been a phenomenal turnaround.

And I think that's going to start really growing in popularity over the next couple of years around here. When it comes to product selections for heating, I just had a situation where someone had used a PVC B-board for their ceiling and they had put in those electrical heaters, obviously above overhead, mounted in the actual ceiling of that project. Just be careful, obviously, with certain products that came to my attention and with PVC because of it being a plastic product and depending on, again, spacing and heat, it warped considerably and we wouldn't recommend that.

So again, it's important to know what products you're using. We have certain products that can do that. There are synthetic products that hold up really well in the water and elements that can take the heat.

There are situations where you can use certain products. Again, back to calling the manufacturer. All this contractor had to do was say, what do you think about this? And I would have recommended not to do it based off of the deflection and the distance that that heat was mounted.

And those were really big, they were electric heating mounts, infrared, right on top of the product. And it buckled, unfortunately, pretty severely. I'm so happy you brought that up.

I mean, it literally goes back to collaborating. Collaborate. I mean, I've seen so many contractors.

Listen, the reason I care so much and I try to push as much good out into the world, especially when it comes to contractors, everybody thinks it's so easy to become a contractor, but what they don't understand is you gotta live and learn. And sometimes living and learning turns into a huge expense or a big miss. And you don't wanna portray yourself that way.

But it's so funny you bring that up. It's like, maybe whoever designed it, if they had maybe spoke to the manufacturer or the contractor or vice versa, you could twist that in any way ever, but we could have caught that and we could have saved time, we could have saved money and we could have eliminated the issue, right? I've seen it happen a million times. I mean, even in the vinyl fencing industry, everybody wants a black ranch rail fence now.

Black is like a new in style color, but in order to do it, and I see it around here, people were painting their vinyl siding black, but in the summertime, that stuff welps up just based off of the sun. I mean, even blue or tan can welp up if it's reflecting, if the houses are too close. So being able to just collaborate and ask the question, hey, this is what we're planning on versus this is just what the homeowner wants or our client wants, and we're gonna do it.

Professionalism, let's get it. What do you think, Jeff? No, agreed a hundred percent. And where my mind went in this portion of the conversation today is our most recent participation in the North American deck and rail deck competition in 2024.

I would say the large majority, probably two thirds of the projects that were submitted had some type of heating and or fire aspect to the project. So it is a very popular add-on feature in these projects today. And I would highly recommend, and Travis, you probably agree, if you wanna consider heating or fire, consider it upfront so that the proper steps can be taken, whether it's gas feeds or electric feeds, or as Jay mentioned there with the PVC, the proper materials are used to support the project are considered upfront as opposed to, oh, by the way, I wanna put fire into my project and now everything's been done and we have to go back and reinvent some stuff or add costs, unnecessary costs.

I mean, I've even seen outdoor kitchens go directly under pavilions and of course, you think it's gonna be phenomenal, right? And it seems like it's gonna make sense, but the first time you go out and grill under that enclosed pavilion and there's smoke and it just goes up into your ceiling, where does it go? You have no ventilation. So there's always considerations. Everything has a reaction and it's up to us as professionals and designers to set the expectation one and to mitigate, but fire is phenomenal.

It's one of my favorite things aside from lighting. It's just a matter of eliminate the surprise, but let's do it. We put fire pyrotechnics and concerts and indoor theaters and everything.

There's just a way to do it that we have to bring that outside and do it smart. So with bringing in those heating elements, how do adjustable louvers or dynamic roofing systems influence the thermal comfort in these outdoor spaces? First and foremost, it allows for seasonal control. It doesn't matter if it's raining, if it's super sunny, it gives again, flexibility, but letting in the warmth during the winter and providing the shade in the summer, these systems maximize usability without requiring heavy modifications.

I mean, you started seeing these louvered systems initially in the restaurant industry when they extended their indoor dining to the exterior dining. And now you're seeing them more and more and more popular as they grow into the residential industry. And it's phenomenal.

You can flip shades. I'll be honest with you. I have like a little bit of, like I'm always devil's advocate on some things.

And I'm like, I just like pergolas and things like that, but the technology's taken over. So like the first couple of times I was asked about them and to incorporate them, I was like, why do we need this louvered ceiling? I'm not gonna have a conversation with you standing here and who's gonna tell me like, hey man, it's kind of bright in here. Can you just close the ceiling? I'm gonna be like, what are you talking about? Like, or vice versa.

It's kind of shady in here. Can you open the ceiling so I can get some sun? I'm like, walk three feet out, but the more and more of these things come about, they provide protection from rain. And again, it's a seasonal control.

You have the ability with new technology and these louvered ceilings to do anything you wanna do and make it an outdoor environment that is comfortable. So what innovative screening solutions then in maybe conjunction with these adjustable louvers help balance the airflow, privacy, and weather protection? So the motorized retractable screens, first of all, are definitely decorative privacy panels and louvered systems allow the homeowner to adjust their environment based on specifically their comfort. Just like we just talked about, it gives you seasonal control.

If the sun, if you wanna go out to your patio area or outdoor space at 11, the sun's gonna be at one place coming up and then it's gonna transfer around and you can use that pavilion or outdoor space to whatever extent you want. And literally with a push of a button or obviously they're not all electric, you can control your entire environment. Whether you're working outside, you need to see your computer screen, whether you're in just enjoying the outdoors and relaxing.

So that's how those things can play a key role in that outdoor environment and make it more comfortable. I just wanna add one thing real quick too. When it comes to experience and looking for that person who you can get those proper answers from, a good example, there is actually an LED misting type of electric fire pit when you're in a very hot climate.

If I'm in Arizona or possibly Florida, you may not wanna have heat all the time. So there are electric options that give you the look of fire without having to also deal with potentially smoke issues. And you mentioned that great example, Travis, when you're cooking and you don't have a proper ventilated area, you can use an electric type of fireplace.

So there's a lot of different options in there as to which way you wanted to go. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, that's a great point.

I mean, and it's, I'm just in one state. And I think that's the value within this podcast is sharing different experiences, but we're building a 24 by 24 pool house right now. And we don't necessarily need the heat element.

I mean, cause it's gonna be wide open. But they love the fire. So we're doing an insert fireplace.

And I've done about three of these inside and outside of homes. And it's just, it's the look. So there are, again, just like you mentioned, there's options.

Go for it. I mean, what do you think, Chase? Yeah, no, and there are ventless options too, right? So depending on, again, what you're trying to work around, expertise, right? Gray hair isn't just getting old. It's, they say it's experience, right? So having someone that you can go to, like Travis and his situation, he's going to either reach out, he's gonna research it, or he's gonna talk to people in the industry that he can get a good answer from.

And so by sharing and collaborating, you get different options instead of someone just jamming square pegs and round holes, you're getting the best option available for those client needs. To that point and heat and just picking the right materials or being able to do a job in general. I mean, a homeowner will call me and say, hey, can we, I wanna paint my house black.

All right, well, what kind of siding do you have? I have vinyl siding. All right, are there trees around? Is there plenty of shade? I mean, it's not impossible to do it, but if you're right in the middle on top of the hill on a farm, it's my job as a professional to say, hey, I don't know if this is gonna work out well, like, but there's other options. I know what your goal is.

I know what your style is. Now talk to me a little bit more and let's talk about it because I can come in here and you could pay me a ton of money. We'll paint this whole house black, but here's what you're looking at in the month of August.

And here's what it's gonna cost to fix that. You know what I mean? So it's options, it's planning, and it's collaborating with people, one, that have experience, two, that have dealt with some of this stuff, and then three, the manufacturers, obviously, and the suppliers. Like, you gotta know, you gotta live through it and experience it to put people first.

So with all of that being said, what are the steps that can be taken by the client and the design professional to ensure there are no missteps in these outdoor living spaces? In my experience over the years, it comes down to communication. Have open, honest communication, transparency. Travis mentioned a few times earlier in the podcast.

Be certain of your questions. Do not cheat yourself out of the answers because you're afraid to ask the question. Just work very carefully with the contractor, the design professional, to ensure that everything is meeting your expectations, and having that clear communication, which will help set the expectations or reset expectations for a successful project.

I couldn't agree more with that. Like, clear expectations from day one and conducting thorough site analysis and comparing those to your job designs prevent so many issues, you know, every detail, you know, and just understanding what, you have to understand what is the goal, what's the problem, and how do we mitigate that problem within the scope of work? And honestly, communicating the entire time. Communicate, communicate, communicate.

Expectations and communicate. That's, I couldn't stress that enough. So we've talked about outdoor living design, kind of in a general approach.

Let's narrow it down a little bit to coastal and regional considerations. How does regional climate impact the overall design of outdoor living spaces? So I'm pretty sure, I've talked to Jay about this. Oh, God, how many times, man? It's unbelievable.

But you got to understand, climate dictates literally everything when we're talking about outdoor living spaces, from material selection to structural reinforcements. You know, a design, I'm stealing this from you, Jay, like a design that works in Arizona doesn't last in the Northeast without modification or a solution of some sort. And it boils down to product selection in most cases.

Jay, what do you think? One of my frustrations probably across the board of most manufacturers, they love just selling it across the board. And there are absolutely climates that are extremely humid. There are areas where products don't get warrantied near water.

There are projects and products that just don't mesh well in heat. Fire code is one of those on the West Coast. You know, the Southwest part of the country is very dry and very hot.

And there are products that fit in better climates. And, you know, unfortunately, if you talk and have the wrong, you know, advisor, they will unfortunately give a bad, you know, rap to maybe the industry in the sense where they're maybe recommending things across the board. And it just doesn't work that way.

You just have to find people that have, you know, the right, your intentions at heart and have solutions that fit the scenario and not just blanketing, you know, the overall approach. And that's, again, back to testimonials, referrals, find people that you can trust as an advisor and link up with them. There's a lot of times often where they think it's industry, but it's really cultural.

And they'll push certain products in certain different areas that have just been marketed in a way that, you know, this is normal. This is what everybody wants. And again, it's up to us as professionals to provide transparency, get the information, make sure it's going to be, it's going to withstand the test of time and put the right things in place to over, you know, to achieve the goal that we're trying to build.

So one regional aspect that areas have to contend with is the cold, the winter. What role does winterization play in making outdoor areas durable and comfortable in harsh climates? A couple of things, in the winter, first of all, I hate winter. The older I get, the more I hate the cold.

I used to love it as a kid. So I try to make outdoors as comfortable as possible. Like where I'm at, climate has changed so much.

We used to get 13 to 14 inches of snow at a time here where we're at. And so a big thing with winterization was snow loads and things like that. One thing you have to always consider is drainage first and foremost in any project outdoors, but it's the material selections and then your snow loads, of course, like structural reinforcements are key to ensuring longevity.

And then of course, if you have outdoor sinks and if you have maybe an outdoor bathroom, some of those things have to be winterized. No different than a boat or an RV or something like that. So those are some of the things we've faced.

I mean, what are you seeing out in the industry, Jeff? Well, again, and Travis, you make some great points. There's things that I haven't even considered when it relates to winterization. With the desire to have multi-season, whether they're three season or four season spaces, outdoor spaces, all of these ideas have to come into play.

Especially we don't want to have any long lasting damage from a harsh winter where the homeowner is then required to make extensive repairs to use the materials, the outdoor bathroom or what have you. Kitchens are very popular today. They want to make certain that they will survive the harsh weather and be able to be used the following spring or summer.

And it's important, again, back to those are setting those expectations and building accordingly will help one make it through with the winterization, and especially in those harsh climates and harsh climates. We talked about cold, but there's also the harsh climates of the Southwest and the like. Again, we're thinking regionally here, Mid-Atlantic, Northeast.

However, you get down into Florida and I think we'll have some conversation about that coming up as it relates to color. But I just want to make certain that it's not just where we live. It's across the entire United States, all 50 states for that reason, and into Canada if we have some of our friends from the North joining our conversation today.

Another good example would be snow, right? You know, if you put your railing down by code at, you know, just at two and a half inches, which is, again, to your point, Travis, kind of an industry standard, but it doesn't really fit because if you get snow and you have a shovel and you need to push snow underneath your rail, it can also get trapped. So you have some guys who put it really narrow. They drop that rail two inches, maybe in some cases, you know, around two inches plus.

But I found that in areas with snow, if you can push that up to about three and a half inches, you're still within code and you can now flush snow underneath your rail. So it gets us back to examples that are helpful. Another, you know, another good one could be when it comes to, you know, just seasonality, like you said, is what you put in for windows and venting that makes it, you know, a little more appropriate, you know, based on that snow.

One example we would also have would be wheels on the bottom as a mobile drink cart, right? Obviously in the winter, you're not entertaining anybody if there's snow on your deck. So, you know, some folks like the idea of a mobile kitchen or a mobile entertainment area where you can, you know, maybe put your drinks on it or have wine on it or have some area where it's a mobile cart. And then you can move it to the corner when it's, you know, December or January and it's, you know, 20 degrees out.

Thankfully, we don't get as much snow as we used to here in Maryland, or at least my part of Maryland. But even like thinking about leaves, the same thing I see, I see decks get built with these elaborate steps and it's just a leaf collection area. You got to keep in mind, like for us here, when you're around those trees, that can alone create an issue if you have a bunch of leaves built up in the corner of a space along the side of your house and things like that.

All of these things have to be considered and it's virtually impossible to consider everything at once when you're designing a project. That, what you just said about the railing and bumping it up a little bit. Yeah, you can go up to, you know, three and seven eighths on that bottom rail, but there's a reason your builder that you're trusting is telling you, hey, this is what we need to do and this is why I'm doing it.

So maybe your rail's not 36 inches high, it's 37 and three quarter high, right? But there's a reason for it, you know, do you, you know. So I love that point. That's a great point.

Yeah, fantastic. Those are all really great points on climate considerations. But what about coastal? What design strategies could help mitigate the corrosive effects of saltwater in those coastal applications? Well, it comes down to selection on this particular topic.

In fact, many manufacturers, including my company, Keelink, we require a particular coastal finish on materials that are within a mile of the coast or brackish water because of the salt, the corrosiveness of the salt air and salt water. We go as far as a special process in priming and then using a different finish, a fluoropolymer finish instead of just a standard polyester finishes to mitigate, help mitigate some of the destructiveness of that salt air and salt water in those spaces. Today, with the desires of having cable railing, there's a certain amount of maintenance that's required.

We recommend, you know, regular maintenance, interior, you know, Midwest or the mountain areas. We're talking about maintenance for the cable product, maybe twice annually. I often say spring and fall, kind of a starting and linearizing type of process.

If I'm coastal, I'm having that same conversation with somebody probably four to five times a year where I'm out there regularly coating the cables with a penetrating oil to make certain that they help reduce the effects of the corrosive effects of salt water. And that's very important. I think that goes, it ties into what the contractor has to share with the homeowner that this is not a set and forget.

There's a certain maintenance requirement that they are going to have to take on or have somebody come and do for them to stay in compliance with warranty. And not only for products, warranty for products, but also the warranty that's extended by the contractor himself. And safety.

I mean, I agree 100% with that. And here's what I find around my area. I mean, we live right next to the water.

I'm on the Chesapeake Bay and I love the Chesapeake Bay. But this, I mean, this extends down the entire coast. I mean, you can go to North Carolina and be the same thing.

I'm a huge boater. I love, my main hobby is being on my boat. I love it, right? And so I always deal with similar issues in the contracting world where I'll get the call or somebody has, you know, they'll say, well, we just got a price that's, you know, 15%, 30% cheaper than yours, you know, and it's like, well, we're not comparing apples to apples.

We need to compare apples to oranges. But I, and this is what kills me. It's because a lot of the contractors out there and they focus on tangible items versus education.

And what I mean by that is they'll, they automatically assume that the homeowner wants the cheapest thing at all times. And that's not the case. If you tell me that there's a chance that my boat will break down for any reason or anything's wrong with it, I promise you, it doesn't matter.

The boat's working today, but fix it. I want it done. So when I come in, I'm like, well, listen, we need to have stainless steel hardware here.

I mean, we're 500 feet away from the water. And also, you don't want to necessarily put this product here. You need to kind of upgrade because of the circumstances that we're at.

And it's being able to set those expectations. And everybody around here in my area is a boat owner. And so all I, stop focusing on the tangible items because that's when a railing becomes a railing, a deck board becomes a deck board, a roof becomes a roof, a window becomes a window.

Educate your homeowners and don't be afraid to add the value of what you're going to give them. Because all you really have to do is say, hey, you deal with salt on your boat, correct? And you know the corrosion and you know the issues that it can produce. I'm going to eliminate that problem because I'm going to use this type of fastener.

I'm going to use this type of railing. And if you're looking for low maintenance, this is what I suggest, you know. And it's making, it's creating that relationship and being able to tie in their experience with their, maybe their boat or being next to the water in general to what you're about to sell them for their outdoor space.

So how do color choices and material selection vary by region? Just had a meeting with a homeowner today that lives in Nashville. They're building a house here in Annapolis and they wanted, they wanted to use a roll-on over top of their concrete when they redo their whole decking. We use it on a lot of rooftop decks, but I think Jay can answer this a lot better.

But, and in my case with the homeowner this morning, I was like, listen, if we use that material up here, it's, you're going to be prone to an issue unless it's installed with extreme care because it's not the same as in your region in Tennessee. But on top of that, it's, here's what we do to kind of mitigate some of that. We use lighter colors.

Everything's going to get hot. Your asphalt driveway is going to get hot. I get this question a lot.

You know, how hot is it going to be on our feet? And, but nobody asks like how to get it cooler. So, you know, we incorporate lighter, lighter colors in our designs here and things like that. But we do it like a nice dark border.

Jay, I mean, what's your experience with that question? Yeah, you know, it comes down to physics. Dark colors are going to get hotter. PVC decking usually dissipates heat faster.

Cap composite boards will hold heat longer. They're more of a heat sink, kind of like what concrete does, right? Density will hold heat longer. And the farther you go south, the more and more I run into foot-friendly colors, and they're usually all light colors.

There's a reason why they're lighter, right? They reflect more heat. And so we have folks that want to maybe lean towards using some of the darker colors. And my professional opinion is a lot of the better contractors will do the right thing, and they'll make a dark border, but they'll make the majority of the deck a lighter color.

I know that dark colors are attractive. I know they're the trend. But in direct sunlight, four hours of sunlight or more a day, you are going to get crushed regardless of the brand.

Dark colors, it's physics. There are some marketing tips that you can utilize that are going to be a little more helpful, you know, maybe by certain companies, but they're all going to get hot. I don't care which company, which brand, dark colors get hotter.

Dark colors will always get hotter. Anything is going to collect heat. I mean, one of the things that I've seen a couple of years back, it was around here.

Everybody was having their docks done, and they were doing the, they were doing, first of all, it was cap composite decking in most of them, which I was like, oh, good God. But they were doing such dark colors. And I'm like, you really, like, you're in the water right there.

And it is, you're getting beat on, and so the biggest complaint was like, we're getting off of our boat, and of course you don't have shoes on when you're on your boat. And it's, it's hot, you know. Those are all design aspects that, you know, just because the homeowner thinks that they want a dark color, it's up to us as design professionals, contractors, and things like that to guide them and advocate and lead a project that they're not going to hate when it's all over.

Absolutely then. So what are the common concerns that design professionals should have when designing for coastal or extreme weather environments? Again, I think I would take it back to color considerations. You know, of course, there's scientific technology and some deck boards and things like that, that, you know, cooling, cooling.

That's when it kind of gets, that's a whole different subject. I've personally never installed it. There's cooling technology issues, but color, color options, material, you know, do you want to use standard concrete or do you want a blue stone or do you want an ACA caps, cap decking, or do you want a PVC decking, things like that.

It all boils down to material selection to mitigate as much as you can. I mean, we can't mitigate it all. There's always going to have to be some sort of compromise here and there, but it's understanding what their goal is and what their concern is and what we can put in front of and install appropriately to make their living space optimal.

Again, I'll just finish up with Travis's thought there and I'll speak from the railing perspective. And as I mentioned just moments ago about the coastal upgrade finishes that are offered by railing manufacturers, oftentimes referred to as an AMA 2605 finish. It's a fluoropolymer finish.

Oftentimes a prime, most if not all the time, a primer is used first and that fluoropolymer finish is used on top of that. It's required by manufacturers for warranty purposes. I can speak to those who manufacture composite railing materials as well as PVC railings.

Just make certain that when you're making your product selection, that they can address the concern that you have, coastal or extreme weather. Make certain that there's no warranty restrictions or what are the maintenance requirements for this material so that you can stay in compliance for the manufacturer, with the manufacturer's warranty. And just the last thing you want to do is put a product in there that won't be warranted down the road because of a failure that is an act of God or just an environmental issue.

And just want to kind of reemphasize that. Thank you. Now, Jeff, I agree with that.

I mean, and unfortunately, I wish there was a way to, like, it's not just about educating the client, the end receiver. It's, I wish there was a better way to educate the contractors and things and just get away from the tangible item of it. I see a lot of people that they focus so much on the tangible item that they think this is what is best.

And again, it goes back to ultimatums versus options, but it's education at the end of the day because I see stuff get installed all the time. And I'm like, oh, if anything happens, what recourse does the homeowner have at this point? Because it's not that it was installed improperly. It's just not the proper material for the right application.

You got to read the fine print. I encourage anybody that is a builder or installer to sit down and look through things. And that's why, again, going back to collaborating, get with your local suppliers and get with anybody.

You're never too smart, I promise you. Get with people and get their thoughts and understand your environment and your 30-mile range of where you're installing things so that you can put the right stuff and do good to your client at all times. I mean, Jason and I have talked about that a hundred times, I think.

Well, another good example of that is a substructure, right? No one would buy a high-end vehicle without a warranty on their frame of their vehicle, right? You're spending $50,000 to $100,000. Yeah, there's a price point for everything. But if you're not going to get a warranty on that, and that's an investment on your home, think of it as an investment.

The days of the backyard deck are over. It should be now viewed as an extension of your home. And you wouldn't put something on there as a frame that could potentially rust out or be compromised in 10 or 20 years, right? You're going to buy it to last.

And so you'll see that be the next phase of investments, I think, going into the substructure where they're more resilient. There's a plastic product that has fiberglass reinforcement that I really like that's out there where it's impervious to moisture and you get a consistent warranty across the entire structure. So with all these points that we've discussed in this episode, how would you summarize the impact of adequate project planning and regional considerations on effective outdoor design? Here's what I try to put out into the world for anybody, whether you're a designer, whether you're a contractor, whether you're a homeowner, whether you're the client itself.

You can't come into my office and pick something off the shelf, take it home, plug it in, and it works. Everything that we get into is a dream. And here's the thing, dreams don't exist.

It's imagination, right? They don't exist until you put the right people in place to get the job done, get it done in a timely manner, get it done efficiently without disrupting the client's home, right? So these great outdoor spaces that we build don't happen by accident. I mean, proper planning ensures that a space is not only functional, but it's durable and it's tailored to the environment. And it's up to us as professionals to get involved and educate, provide transparency, communicate, but add value.

Value is key. Value is key in this whole entire thing because, I mean, have you ever seen like the commercials on TV where it's like, it'll have an entire five-piece bedroom set and it's like 9.99, you know? You could have a five-piece bedroom set and it's like value. Let me tell you something.

Everybody looks at that. If you think that's value, that's junk. That is complete junk.

You think you're gonna turn that five-piece bedroom set, that's not a family heirloom, that's junk. Add value to what you're doing. You're gonna use that bedroom set for a year when you get ready to move or whatever.

It's no good. It falls apart, right? Our job is to add value. Don't focus on tangible items because we don't have tangible items.

You can't come buy the stuff and take it off a shelf and plug it in. We have to build it. We have to plan it.

We have to design it. We have to make sure that it's everything you guys want. At the end of the day, it's about putting the right people in place to get the job done and provide an exceptional experience.

That's how I look at things. When you put people first, you can really dial in. When you actually care about people and understand them and stop just trying to sell a particular product or get a job, you can do so much better for anybody that you're working for.

It comes back to you. That's what I've learned. As we wrap up part one today, I would like to hear from all three of you what you think a key takeaway is that a design professional should consider when designing functional, durable, and client-focused outdoor living spaces.

Thanks, Travis. Again, the takeaways for me would be going back to that trusted advisor role that we spoke about earlier in a previous podcast. Ask questions, whether you're the design professional, the client, or the contractor.

Be willing to be vulnerable. Ask those questions. It's okay not to know everything.

There's so many material changes and product changes that are in the market today that what was maybe the material of choice three to five years ago, there's a product out there that may be performed better or act differently. That may be the solution that your client is needing. So just, again, be open, be vulnerable.

Ask those questions. Be willing to have a trusted advisor. Take that advice to build the best possible project for all those involved.

Yeah, I think it's just interesting. I've been to so many trade shows and so many tabletops and people are just reticent to reach out and just talk to people. And if you open up and you just, like you said, let your ego down a little bit, you just find trusted advisors.

We keep harping on that, but it's time and time again. I go to a trade show when you talk to maybe eight people in an entire weekend or 20 people when 500 people walk by you. I know you can't talk to everybody, but if you're in the market for certain products, find the right answers.

If you talk to enough people and you get enough opinions, they will start to create in your own mind a collective arrangement of the right answers. And that's all I can say. You gotta find the right people and the right people will collaborate and you'll find the right answers in those connections.

You can't collaborate enough. I mean, as a contractor, if you're worried about taking a job from somebody else or stealing a job or I got that and outbid them or whatever, you're doing it wrong. We're not competitors in this market, man.

We really aren't. Nobody is. Put the ego away and make relationships.

Relationships are so valuable. And it's funny because I get asked all the time, like, why? How are you helping other contractors? Don't you compete? We're not competing. If there's anything I can do for anybody across the nation, for God's sake, if I could save you what it costs me in time, I will turn over anything that I've ever learned.

And that's how you kind of lead. I think it's a big leadership thing. You have to be able to.

I want to prevent issues, not only for contractors, but for homeowners alike. There was a, I think during COVID, it was like I seen an article and it said, what, you want to see a $40,000 kitchen renovation turn into a $72,000 nightmare? Hire a contractor. And that's where I was like, there is a better way to set expectations and do business, do business correct.

I mean, so I would, I would add on to what you said. It's like, you just have to understand your client's needs, plan for the long term or plan for what they are doing. You know, prevent the surprises, talk through it, collaborate with others so that everybody has eyes on something that you could say, hey, we see this or I identify this.

And you can prevent those surprises, which turns into costly expenses for people. And then just lead, lead with education, put people first. Advocate, communicate, and lead.

I can't stress that enough, ma'am. Fantastic. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us today.

And I look forward to meeting back up with you to continue this discussion in part two. Thank you for listening to the Spec Shaman podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to our show and leave us a review.

A huge thank you to our guests who made this show possible. Building product manufacturers who want to increase their specification opportunities, please visit specshaman.com or ronblank.com. Thanks all for this episode, folks. See you next time.