The Intersection of Design Approaches and Trends in Outdoor Living – Part 2

This podcast explores the evolving landscape of outdoor living design, focusing on material advancements, structural integrity, sustainability, and user experience. Participants will examine how innovations in material science, privacy solutions, smart technology, and low-maintenance strategies enhance outdoor spaces while safeguarding occupant comfort, safety, and environmental quality. Additionally, the podcast will address how post-pandemic lifestyle shifts and emerging trends influence residential and commercial outdoor environments. By integrating technical expertise with aesthetic considerations, design professionals will gain the knowledge necessary to create durable, functional, and sustainable outdoor spaces that prioritize occupant well-being.

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Transcript

Welcome back to the Blueprint of Outdoor Living podcast. I'm your host, Megan Vipond, and today I'm joined by Jeff Sarovi, Architectural Sales Manager for KeyLink, and Jason Fora, VP of Marketing Development for Wolf Home Products. We also have special guest Travis Reyes, Sales and Design Representative for Oasis Pools and Patios.

Combined, they have decades of experience in manufacturing and wholesale building materials distribution across various product lines. These three gentlemen bring a wealth of expertise to the table. Today's episode is part two of a special two-part episode.

Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us again today. Thanks, Megan. In part one, we touched on project planning and regional considerations.

Part two, let's take a little bit deeper look at the technical material considerations, trends, and future directions. So, starting off, what advancements in material science are shaping the future of durable outdoor living design? Megan, it's Jeff, and I'd like to answer that one. Jay mentioned in the previous podcast episode that today there's so many new materials coming out, and we attend trade shows and regional events regularly.

In fact, I'll be attending one later this week, where new materials and the science behind those materials will be introduced to the contractors and architects attending. So, it's important for our design professional colleagues, as well as the contractors and Travis and we all are involved with, be open to do materials, ask questions, research, and just be open to that opportunity. What we're seeing today is new materials, such as different types of framing materials.

Metals became very popular a few years ago. There's lightweight steel, there's aluminum, there's new composite materials that are used for structural integrity to build a deck or space with structural integrity that far outweighs of traditional lumber design and strengths and capabilities. Material sciences, as it relates to decking, there's new advancements in composite lumber and composite decking, as well as railing materials.

Aluminum has been very popular lately, but I can also state that vinyl has improved significantly, as has composite railing systems have improved as well. So, there's many new choices out there and material science is leading the way. And I'm anxious to hear what Jay and Travis have to say about that.

I'd say, you know, it's really interesting because you always hear this from the same contractors, right? That whole adage, well, I've been doing this for 35 years and my dad showed me this. And my answer to that is, it's great. You know, you have a lot of experience and experience is very helpful.

I would also say, however, you know, the industry changes so fast. Every five years, there's new advancements in polymer science and technology. And so, you know, again, back to the last episode, lean on your people that get around, right? Usually every year, most of your professionals are going to the builder shows.

There's one this weekend or next week at the JLC live up in the New England area in Boston. Great show. You don't learn by not getting out, right? You learn by talking to these vendors, getting out and seeing the new advancements and then, you know, and then testing them for yourself and, you know, working through maybe, you know, your sniff test and making sure that they're fine, but you got to get out and see new products.

And those are usually available at some of the regional shows and or, you know, the builder shows like the show in Vegas or Orlando every year. Yeah, I mean, for me, I see this all the time. Probably anywhere from January to March, I traveled the entire East Coast and I check out and it's all about educating.

You have to be acceptable to learning. That's what it's all about. Because in this industry, people get so constrained into what they know and there's like a big fear of some sort of they don't want to change.

Nobody in this industry likes change from the contractor's point of view. But change is happening all around us. I mean, everything from how we market to how we communicate to how how we complete jobs is changing.

Technology is taking over. The science behind products is just phenomenal. And there's a lot of people that just don't they're so stuck on their way and what they do and how they do it and what they use.

Be open. Open yourself up. Go learn about things.

Educate yourself because if you get constrained into one thing in particular of everything we do, you're going to be left in the dust. You have to learn. You have to grow with the industry.

And this industry, for one, is making moves and it's going to be hard to keep up with. You have to stay. You have to stay up with it.

One material selection is obviously railings. How do steel railings compare to alternative materials in terms of structural integrity and maintenance? Well, thanks for that question, Megan. And steel railings have been around.

I mean the material, the history of materials, we started off with the cast and wrought irons as a technological advancements occurred over the centuries. Steel came into play. We still see steel commercially used oftentimes in heavy equipment or roadways.

I don't see it too much today in residential and commercial construction. Maybe something that's very heavy duty. But there are some alternative materials that have come out that will certainly give steel a run for their money as it relates to the integrity, the structural integrity and maintenance.

Steel, obviously, because it requires a great amount of maintenance and needs to be finished or painted on a regular basis. It has the opportunity, if not finished or painted, to rust. Whereas materials such as aluminum, naturally corrosion resistant, finished with a durable powder coating or maybe even a liquid applied finish that will last for 35-40 years easily.

The opportunity for composite materials, again, using wood flour and resins, creating composite railing systems properly capped with a durable coating will give similar life expectancy as well as PVC. PVC is not the PVC of old. Some of the new resins and compounds that are introduced into the material itself were getting great results with PVC.

And I'm speaking as an industry as a whole. The conversation Travis mentioned about black, and I know while that is the predominant color in aluminum railing still today, there's been great advancements in black PVC. And again, there's great, great opportunities.

So steel is a great product. It's been around for centuries. It's tried and true.

It requires a fair amount of maintenance, painting, and some type of repair or mitigation if it starts to rust. However, the weight of steel product versus that of others needs to be considered as well as part of that installation. And I'd be open to your comments, Jay and Travis, if you've seen anything else like that, anything else I should say.

The big thing, I mean, the big challenge we have on steel, I think, you know, we didn't have a lot of options 50 years ago, but steel. I remember growing up and having to paint my grandmother's wrought iron railing, which is steel, right? Wrought iron is what we had used back in the day. And we just have better advancements today.

You know, the steel is going to eventually corrode and push paint away. And so with the onset of a lot of really popular powder coatings and successful powder coatings, as well as powder coatings that you can get as an upgrade for the coast, like you mentioned, you know, those are going to be just a better option. You know, we see a lot of it regionally.

You see a lot of, you know, three level, four, you know, four-story multifamily with somebody local providing the steel. And if you want to maintain it, that's a fine option. But again, you know, nothing's ever no maintenance, but powder coat aluminum in general is a much better option than steel long-term for sure.

You know, we talked about material science and advancements and things have come such a long way. I think Jeff and you said you remember repainting your old wrought iron. I mean, we've come such a far away from there.

Even in historic districts where you have to maintain the look, there's new materials that can be used. And the fact is, you know, you can get aluminum. It's more light.

It's lightweight. It's rust resistant. And composites and vinyls, virtually maintenance-free, but you can't customize it as much as, you know, bending steel and bending metal and the strength of steel.

But it's just another option. At the end of the day, it's a more affordable option, I think. And, you know, we also have to take that into account as designers moving forward over the next couple months with what's going on.

We always have to adapt in our world with terms of, you know, we went through COVID. We went through shutdowns and stuff. Now we're, you know, we're going through tariffs and things like that.

But I've always seen steel, railings, wrought iron more industrialized than in commercial projects. It's not even something, for me personally, I even put out as an option very, very often. It's more or less, my favorite is the aluminum rails, depending on the design or the project that we're working on.

I always will drop down to a composite rail or vinyl. They're all great rails. I've pulled the skirts up on steel railings and seen the corrosion.

That's a big thing, like Jeff was talking about, you have to maintain it. And today's market, we want maintenance-free, essentially. We're never going to have necessarily maintenance-free, but we're always going to have better options, especially as science evolves and these products continue to get better and better and better.

Now we touched on louvers a bit in part one, but to take just a little bit of a deeper dive, how do louvers contribute to both the functionality and style in modern outdoor spaces? So for me personally, I've seen these louvered systems, and I think I said it in part one. These things started out on outdoor restaurants where they extended their interior dining space to the exterior. And again, especially after COVID.

I mean, right now, personally, I think I have three aluminum-framed pergolas with louvered systems, lighting, heating, and everything going into job sites in the next month and a half. But you got to understand, it's because they created the dynamic outdoor experience, and it allows homeowners to control the sunlight, ventilation, weather protection. Some of the benefits that you could get, you got customized shade.

We talked about that in part one, where you can control the screening. You can reduce the heat build-up while maintaining an open feel. Weather resistance, you can louver those systems and knock away the weather.

Architectural appeal, I think, is probably number one in designing, because it adds a sleek and modern aesthetic that blends seamlessly with just about any outdoor space. They come in different colors, white, black. Black isn't trending right now, but you can get them white, and they're powder-coated, and the longevity of them.

I mean, what have you seen in your travel, Jay, anything? Yeah, I'd say louvers are definitely more and more popular, for sure. One of the big things in trends that I've seen from other builders is utilizing a pitched roof into your contracts, and adding a pitched roof. I use this sales example for the contractors that every three days it rains on the East Coast.

If you added a pitched roof to your selling options, you're basically just giving someone a better investment. If I can use my outdoor living space 30% to 35% more, because when it does rain, I can sit outside and read a book. I can be in nature in that biophilic environment, and I can enjoy utilizing that space.

I mean, who doesn't like listening to the rain? But you're not going to sit on your deck and get rained on, right? So, the point of it is, is whether it's a louvered system or it's a pitched roof, a great way to add value and add really an increased investment for that structure or that space. I agree with that. I mean, Jeff, you can probably back me up on this as well.

I mean, that's a great point. I mean, look, remember back in the day when we used to have metal roofing, that was normal. And the pitters of rain, it's an oasis in a sense.

And also, it's lightweight, so we're not worried all the time about snow loads and things like that that we deal with. It's lightweight. We can put those structures on a standard deck that can withstand 40 pounds per square inch easily, and we have the ability to flex it open, flex it shut, and turn that indoor living space to an outdoor living space very easily.

What do you think, Jeff? No, I agree. And just, again, kind of goes back to our conversation earlier about the seasonality or making the space, the outdoor space usable in multiple seasons. Jay mentioned the amount of we may have on the east coast, the amount of just heat on the west coast or southwest as it would be just provides that extra opportunity to enjoy that space even more by offering adjustable louvers or shading systems, as we've just discussed.

How has the demand for turf or artificial landscaping changed the way that outdoor living spaces are designed? Today, I find, and I speak as a father of adult children now, many of them don't want to cut the grass. And I'm finding that in certain, especially in certain urban areas, growing grass or cultivating, cutting grass or actually growing grass or other landscaping, especially in the greater New York City marketplace for quite some time, you didn't grow grass or you had artificial landscaping to help define your space. So, again, that kind of made me chuckle when I thought about the question and how I wanted to answer it.

But no, and it's certainly fine. There's some parts of the United States where grass cannot grow. I have some friends that live down in New Mexico.

Everything's pebbled over, stoned over, just because they don't have the ability to grow traditional grasses. Down in Florida, there's different species of grass as there are up in the New England area. I live in Pennsylvania.

We have a certain type of grass that grows better here than maybe in Florida or the west coast for that matter. Now, I'll touch on that. I mean, and I love what you brought up.

We're dealing with an industry of, or not an industry, but our clientele is always looking for maintenance-free. And they don't want, especially in these smaller, smaller plots where they don't have that much grass. But it's not just New Mexico you can't grow grass, maybe.

If you have a lot of shade, it's virtually impossible to grow grass around here. And let's put all that aside. You're absolutely, nobody wants to cut their grass anymore.

That is so funny that you brought that up because it's something I've never even thought of. But we utilize turf in a lot of our designs because, one, like in particular, around us, everybody's looking for a Hampton-style pool, which is just a pool. And then you're nice coping going around it and maintaining your yard.

But you don't want to get out of a pool and walk through grass or walk through grass and get into a pool. You don't want to cut the grass and have the shavings going into your patio or anything where it's got to be blown off and all that. But then furthermore, wellness living and your hobbies, we're doing more like putting greens than ever before now.

Don't get me wrong. This artificial turf is expensive, but there is so much value that it adds. I can think of two parties, even at our office, our office Christmas party last year, our entire backyard or our out front area or whatever, it could be front, back, it doesn't matter.

But we have fire pits and things like that set up. And everybody, nobody was inside and it was 62 degrees outside. Everybody was outside.

We were huddled around a fire and then it was beautiful because the turf we're in, you know, so artificial turf is, it pays for itself over time. But it's the comfortability, the less maintenance. I love it.

And it's come so far. I mean, it came out years ago. I mean, if you go down to Florida, they got to the point where they had companies come in to paint grass because it burned up.

And they were, they were literally painting your yard green. So it looked like, yeah, good grass. This stuff is, is amazing.

Not only for sports plexes or high schools and parks, it's, we're bringing that into the homeowner's space. And it's, it's phenomenal. How do outdoor privacy solutions contribute to the user experience in these outdoor spaces? So privacy solutions enhance, I would say, both functionality and ambience.

I mean, some of the best methods you could do for, you know, privacy is living walls, vertical gardens that provide natural screening and improve air quality. Decorative slat fences, like I'm getting into, we're doing a lot of horizontal fences to be honest with you, but it allows airflow while creating, you know, visual barriers, even around spa areas and things like that. Or, you know, in some of these tight knit properties where they're just so close together, even on decks, where maybe one side or the other, instead of a railing, we have that, we have that barrier, but we're incorporating that into the design.

Retractable screens offer flexibility between opening closed spaces. Trellises, we don't do them very often anymore. I think, I think they're kind of going out, but, but what we are seeing is a lot of natural landscape going in behind it.

And people like the trellises with the, with those climbing vines and things like that. It's not just about like replacing natural elements. That's the thing.

It's, it's about smart integration and where artificial solutions make the most sense in some cases. Yeah, I would add to that just with the nature of having less land, right? No, we're not making more of it. The reality of it is we have high density, you know, developments and with high density, you're going to have six foot setbacks in a lot of areas.

And six foot setbacks means 12 feet between neighbors. So you're going to have a need for privacy regardless. People want their own space, whether it be around a hot tub, whether it be around a cold plunge tub.

I mean, privacy isn't just about blocking views. It's about creating a sense of comfort. You know what I mean? And that, it, that can be done in multiple different ways.

So, but, but I love it. So you touched a moment ago about clients, the end user wanting a low maintenance design. How can design professionals plan for that minimal maintenance while preserving a high aesthetic standard? I'd like to answer that, Megan.

And again, it, it goes back to what we talked about earlier, research, finding, finding a trusted advisor to provide guidance to, to that end and be open to trying new materials that are designed with the aesthetic in mind. It did today. I don't, I don't know of any, every product that's out there, whether it's a decking material or railing or, or a privacy screen or a louver, they all have their own aesthetic and, and it, you know, beauty's in the eye of the beholder.

Some, some materials may be more attractive than others to certain people. And that's why there's selection out there. So just again, be open, visit trade shows, ask questions, ask for samples, ask for advice, and, and, and we're always open to providing design professionals information, and especially as it relates to maintenance, because as Travis just spoke to, to that end, many of his clients are looking for that low maintenance.

I never say no maintenance, but low maintenance product in their, in their backyard space or their, in their home space in general. Yeah, I would say, I would say that I, every time I talk to somebody, I think there's like, everybody's been marketing, products that have marketed like no maintenance. That's what I hear, no maintenance.

I wish there was a little bit better with like low maintenance, because let's face it, there's always going to be maintenance. I think I've said this just a little bit ago, like I'm still waiting to figure out how my bed can make itself. You can't build a house and make it zero maintenance, you know, but, but there's a misconception, and you just got to understand that.

So I think the secret in the sauce is choosing the right materials at the end of the day, but designing for long-term durability, you know, key strategies within that is, is weather-resistant materials, one, obviously, and then we have everything from, it's not self-cleaning surfaces necessarily, but if you seal your, your patio space or, or anything like that, it helps tremendously. But one of the key things that, and this is like the most scariest thing for everybody, and it's because nobody understands it, and you can't, I can't go to somebody and say, you're going to have a drainage problem. I can tell you that, but nobody understands it.

Drainage is, drainage is a big deal. So if you don't have proper drainage, you're, I mean, your mulch beds are going out into your patio, you're, you're creating these moisture traps and things like that. I said it in part one, you know, about leaf buildup and corners and things like that.

It's, there's always going to be some variable of maintenance. However, how do we as design professionals and installers mitigate that to make it easy to maintain those spaces that we build? And it's, and it all boils down to being part of the initial design plan. You know, it shouldn't be an afterthought.

It should be, it should be kind of planned on, on the front end. I like to use the term mitigate, but I also like to add, you know, anticipate. Right.

Cause you mentioned that about leaves and I didn't even think about it, but if you build a boxed in stair, you know, tread and, and you have a lot of leaves back there with trees, you're going to get tons of leaves accumulating there, where if it was just open, the leaves would fall through. So it may look better boxed in, but anticipation of that is part of where the experience comes in and understanding that the same with snow load, the same with, you know, my personal example here, I'm building an addition out back and I have a driveway coming in and the builder's like, Hey, I got my excavation equipment here. Why don't I just put the, you know, your downspouts underneath the driveway or your landscape.

That's a novel idea, right? So it flushes out halfway out in the yard into the grass where it's not flushing out right on my driveway, which is again, going to cause more, more water flow. And then it's going to push all my mulch and it's going to push other things out of the way, or maybe ruin flower beds. So, you know, that's, that wasn't even, I didn't even think about that, but there's a lot of things going on in projects.

And when you're not always experienced, you don't always think about it. So it really comes back to that, right? Anticipation and the mitigation. Anticipate and adapt, adapt it.

You know what I mean? Yeah. I love that. How do smart technology integrations enhance outdoor spaces? So everybody is, and I think we even touched on this.

It's like, we want to enjoy our outdoor space, but everybody's glued to a phone or a tablet or technology is just, just phenomenal to me. It's, it's insane. You know, so technology honestly is just redefining the outdoor living.

Like, I can't even imagine how it must've felt the first time somebody could walk into a room, I don't know what year, 1930, God knows when, and flip a switch and the light came on. I mean, and that's what we're, again, when we're talking about getting people outdoors and creating their outdoor living space and, and extending their outdoor living space and, and things like that, it's, it's the same exact stuff. So when you have smart lighting outside that's either motion activated or, or app controlled for, or energy efficient for that matter, it's, it's, it's becoming a thing.

And if you're not, if you're not including it in your designs or, or your services, you're, you're missing out on a huge opportunity, but not only that you're, you're doing a big disservice to your clients. I mean, I said it before, and I'm stealing this from a, from one of the trade shows that I went to earlier this year up North, you know, not adding lighting if you're to your outdoor space, you know, you're going to buy a $60,000 deck or, or, you know, space six figures for an outdoor living space. You know, if, if you don't add lighting, it's like buying a car with no headlights.

It doesn't make sense. And, and so when you can, when you can integrate the technology and have the lighting or automated irrigation or heat surfaces and integrated audio systems for that matter, entertainment, the smart tech break bridges convenience with sustainability, which makes the outdoor space more, more user friendly, in my opinion, you know, there's so much technology. I got fireballs going up on my projects that you, you click your phone and the fireballs come up.

I mean, what do you, what, what have you seen in your travels, Jay? Anything in particular that you want to point out? Yeah. I mean, like I said earlier, you know, the fire section at the IBS show in Vegas was just fascinating. You know, there's, it's amazing.

There's some that don't produce any heat. It's all visual from 20 feet away. I mean, it gives you a very, very similar and realistic appearance of fire.

They use a whole bunch of different colors to blend and they have you know, those products that are, that are creating almost like a misting effect. There, there are ones that are ventless, right? There's absolutely vent. You can actually put it inside.

They run on alcohol or ethanol. They burn a hundred percent clean. But in general, I would say the biggest thing I see is probably lighting as it pertains and goes back into landscaping.

A lot of companies don't offer that. It's a huge area. I think that needs to be grown, you know, it needs to have some growth in, but those spaces don't always play together.

And if you can bridge that, I know as a contractor, I'm sure you already have answers, but for us, you know, seeing that unfold in the industry, you know, everybody always asks, you know, it's great. You know, my lights are controlled by the, for the deck, but you know, going around the house and wrapping back into my path or whatever I'm going into my landscape, they don't always play together. And so I know that's that I would love to see happen.

Yeah. I've, I've made strides on that this year. I've made strides in two particular areas personally, and that's, that's outdoor kitchens.

That's a huge, huge problem in this industry is so many options and things like that. So I've simplified that, but also in the lighting industry, it's, you gotta have it working. And in our, in my past over the last couple of years, two of the things that have stopped, it seemed forever, like it was the hardest thing to get taken care of was landscape lighting.

I mean, we're coming out of 1999 in the 2004 where it was solar panels, you know, and they would just come on, but they were dim. This stuff has evolved. Technology's taken over and it's low voltage.

It's energy efficient. And it adds so much value. Could you imagine? I mean, that's, and, and it's like the hardest thing to do is find somebody to install it.

So what, what do you do? How do you solve that problem? You figure out how to install it. And then how do you, you know, where am I going to source it from? You talk to your suppliers and you figure, and then you do their training and then you figure out what the warranties are so that you're not just selling lights. You're selling an outdoor living experience at the end of the day.

Walk outside at night. Am I home? Personally, I'm never home during the day. And when I get home, I've either been in an office all day or I've been in my truck all day on the road.

Right. I love being outdoors. I love it.

Bring it to life. And so again, going back to, you know, partnering and getting the information. Technology is key.

And, and don't get me wrong. It's, you can't specialize in every single thing that you do. I hate when I see guys that, you know, they do roofing and decks and bathrooms and basement remodels.

It's, you can't specialize in everything. But what you can do is specialize in providing a good service and providing a good service means putting the right people in place to get the job done and figuring out the solution to sell it and get it out to your homeowners, your clients, your people. You know what I mean? So you briefly touched on sustainability in regards to technology.

How do you incorporate sustainability into your overall designs without having to compromise style or function? Well, sustainability is not about sacrifice. Okay. That it's about smart design choices.

So you have to focus on selecting long lasting materials, reducing waste and, and frequent replacements. Okay. Using reclaiming like materials where possible and optimizing your natural ventilation, your shade, implementing water conservation techniques, such as rainwater, harvesting and permeable pavers.

But you have to do this in a way to where you're not, it's more of a compromise versus a sacrifice. And just, again, I'm going to say it a million times, value, value, value. If I'm going to give here, what am I going to value from it? Putting the right material choices in place and being willing to learn about other materials that could potentially be better that you're not used to is a great option.

You know, collaborate with others again and again, and again, to provide the best opportunities and options for your, for your design. It's not very often for me personally that somebody comes to me and says, Travis, I want to, I want this, I'm going to just refer to decks, you know, or even a fence. Like I want, I want to, I need a fence around here, but it's got to be sustainable.

And how are you going to make that happen? But I only, I only want to use this or I only want to spend this. I have a good answer probably to that. You know, sustainability in the architectural community can be, you know, somewhat challenging to answer only because I think everybody has a different mindset of what sustainability is.

Most of the time it's, you know, the way I see it is, it's, it's kind of viewed as me being more of a natural wood product. A lot of design professionals may or may not, you know, like to see certain synthetics because they may be plastic derived, or maybe they're oil-based derived or gas-based derivative. And so when it comes to sustainability, my only challenge is if it doesn't last, if you use a natural wood product and it breaks down and you replace it or paint it every five years or 10 years, that isn't very sustainable either.

So with that being said, if you're looking to incorporate, you know, wood into your, your functionality, maybe it's a privacy wall or a ceiling, we see a lot of that now. We actually have been part of working with some companies who do thermally modified wood. And what you're doing is you're taking new growth wood, which is mainly hybridized lumber and grown more like a crop with bigger growth rings.

And you're thermally modifying it, putting it into more or less like a kiln where you're drying up those cells and you're shrinking the cells so that it performs more like old growth. So to me, that's about as sustainable as it gets, right? You're using a wood species that's very viable, that's easy to source, you know, it's typically ponderosa pine or hemlock. They do it in poplar now, you can do it in ash.

So I've seen different folks do it for different applications, but a really neat opportunity, I think, again, to use a wood product and truly give those features of benefits that would be sustainable. I mean, you're not having to replace it like you would with wood today, because unfortunately, a lot of the old growth has been cut down. That's just the reality, right? It's at the bottom of Lake Erie or the Susquehanna River, the Chesapeake Bay, and we're not making old growth anymore.

Well, I've seen the same thing in siding choices. You know, a lot of designers have always kind of geared towards cement fiber boards for siding options. And that, you know, we've talked about this before in the past, and it's like that might work out in the Midwest or something, but it doesn't work here.

And this is, again, collaborating with people around you and understanding your area and your geographic location, whereas I could take the ACA cap that's put on a 50-year PVC decking and put it on the house with the proper drainage and everything, and it will last a lot longer here versus other products. You know, so sustainability, it's like, do you want to paint it? Do you want to caulk it? Like, how much maintenance-free do you want? Because cement fiber boards probably ain't going to work where we're at. Long-term, you're going to have to maintenance it more than you're actually anticipating, and sometimes that boils down to how it was marketed.

Again, today with this selection of materials, the sustainability, the long-lasting, you know, life-cycle assessment of materials, manufacturers have come a long way to ensure that the materials today will work with designs, both style, function, aesthetic, easy to maintain, and the like. I'm confident that we've addressed, we're continuing to address these issues of sustainability and to allow the incorporation of materials to that end goal. Yeah, and I would just add quickly to that, sometimes it's not even just the material itself, it's the installation.

You got to, you have to also, we have to also account for, is it being properly installed in some cases for manufacturer recommendations, or I can install a piece of trim around a door casing and somebody can do it three different other ways, you know what I mean? What's the right way? And again, going back to collaborating with trusted advisors and knowing that something's going to be done correctly. I want specs, I want everything to be built with specs and everything, so don't ever put yourself, if you ever find yourself in a position where you're, you don't have the answer, I don't want you to just do it the way you think you would do it if it was your project. I want a phone call and I'm going to get you the right answer so that it gets installed properly.

Proper installation is key in a lot of this stuff. Absolutely, so a lot of really good points made on the technical and material considerations in outdoor living design. Let's talk a little bit about trends and influence.

How has the post-pandemic era reshaped the demand for outdoor spaces? We've spoken about this several times, both in this present, in this podcast as well as the previous one, about the pandemic and the effect it had on us being locked down and so on and so forth, that today we demand that outdoor space for both residential and that commercial design. I travel a fair amount and I noticed that the hotels that I frequent have expanded their outdoor living areas to allow for the commuting, as it would be with the outdoors. Restaurants today, a large majority of restaurant spaces today have indoor and outdoor dining.

It's become very popular. Just having traveled recently, personally, we ate outdoors, I think, all but one occasion. So again, the need to be outdoors is being addressed today in many different ways.

Travis just mentioned, he comes home, he's cooped up in his truck or working all day. I as well, working in an office or on the road, I do like to get outside when it's weather appropriate and spend some time just relaxing. I need to focus on that a little bit more, as many of us do.

Post-pandemic, yes, there's been a big focus on that. I think it's just going to remain a large focal point with design for all aspects of residential, commercial architecture. Back in the day, for the outdoor living space, we didn't have, keep this in mind, we didn't have Facebook, we didn't have internet TV, we didn't have the social media platform that we do.

You know what we did have? We had front porches. That's what we had. We had front porches and everybody was outside.

When they say history repeats itself, it's not a lie. History repeats itself because our Facebook was on our front porch. People walked down the street and you knew everything that was going on because you waved to your neighbors, you waved to everybody, nothing got past you.

Then we lost that connection through the internet and social media, and then all of a sudden COVID happened and we were forced inside. People had pots and pans over their head. Then everybody went home and identified an issue inside and they wanted to make this office space and things like that.

Now, just like you said, and I said earlier, I used to actually go home, believe it or not, before COVID. I would get more work done at home in two hours on a computer versus being in the office because I had so many questions that came to me. Now, I can't go.

I don't even want to go home because I just don't want to be in another room. We want to go outside. We want to go back outside.

Here we are again. With everyone wanting to be outside more, what are some of the latest design trends in indoor-outdoor living and how do they redefine that spatial boundary? When you transfer the inside of your home to the outside, I mean, we've done everything from accordion doors that just open up and transition into the outside to extending the flooring. Again, I'm seeing more and more outdoor kitchen spaces.

People want to dine outside. We're creating these functional areas where that living space just transfers outside seamlessly. For us, I think I said it a little bit ago, one of my biggest goals this year was to make designing and providing an outdoor kitchen easy for my clients.

And I'm like two weeks away from it. I've worked with, again, collaborated actually with multiple suppliers and multiple manufacturers to ensure that I can just go in. I don't overwhelm anybody when I produce anything.

Here's how we design our outdoor kitchens and just made the entire process from sale to installation 10 times easier. I often think of the outdoor living space today as an extension of the interior living room. It's now becoming the outdoor living room.

And with some of the designs and projects that we've viewed over the last number of months, and I reference back to the deck competition from the North American Deck and displayed, and I believe there was well over 300 entries in a variety of different topics or categories, excuse me. They were just amazing use of talent, of design work, aesthetics, lighting. Again, blending that interior, exterior living transition, breaking down those boundaries from many years ago where you did not have the design tools or the materials to create some of these beautiful spaces.

They're just stunning, absolutely stunning. And they certainly come with a price, but that's the opportunity. Today, people are with the economy, interest rates being what they were, going back to pandemic, it was harder for people to move, find a space that fit their needs, a home that fit their needs.

So they decided to invest in the current home by adding additions and or modifying outdoor living space to have that outdoor living room. And it's really kind of fun to watch this. And I'd love to have people listening today go on to the website.

We referenced NADRA, North American Deck and Rail Association, in our first podcast. It's nadra.org. Those listening today want to take a look at some of the entries that were listed or highlighted in 2024. There's a link right on the homepage of that website that I just mentioned.

Thank you. Another trend that I'm seeing is, you know, remember when everything started increasing, interest rates started increasing and things like that. Where I'm at on the East Coast, I'm starting to notice a lot of multi-family living spaces taking over.

So it's not just single family homes. I'm seeing a lot of families conjoined again. And so now, mother, father, daughter, you know, in-laws, whatever, and then grandkids.

And they're conjoined in one house and they're sharing things and everything. And everybody needs their own space. And again, it just goes back out to the outdoors.

But I'm seeing so much more of multi-family homes versus single family homes now. And that's another thing that's been helping individuals cope with economy changes. And so that's another important thing.

And then when we talk about privacy, everybody wants their own privacy and everybody wants their own space, you know. So I agree with that. I can relate as one of my colleagues just recently built a home and it was a multi-generational home as well.

Parents, brothers, sisters, so on and so forth. Very interesting. It was part of their culture for that home to be designed and for that intended use to have, again, multi-generational.

Kind of neat. A very neat concept. Yeah.

So I think that's where we're going to head to. I think that's kind of a different wave. It's one thing that I've never seen actually coming.

But when you can get that multi-family home together, and I think it's based off of, again, I think it's more based off economical issues as far as, you know, being able to share expenses, especially, you know, with a lot of uncertainty, you know, it just makes it easier. So now we're building homes and outdoor spaces, indoor spaces, everything for multiple people. It's not just for a single, you know, family home anymore.

There's a lot of people that are enjoying this together and sharing the expenses, you know, however that works out. But, you know, it's been a fun journey to see everything from 2009 to today. It's just a completely different ballgame.

And it's up to us, you know. I'm on a mission to change this industry from a contractor standpoint and lead by example, I think. And it boils down to just putting people first.

Put people first. Lead, advocate, and communicate. And that's not just the homeowner, your client.

That's everybody. That's the guy behind the lumber counter. That's the guy that's in the field working, you know.

Absolutely. So with all the changes in the trends over the recent years, what do you think the future of outdoor living looks like? And how could design professionals stay ahead of evolving trends? Folks don't want to do a lot of maintenance anymore. They definitely, you know, I'm looking at doing a Japanese garden and doing nothing but gravel.

I don't want a nice area to look at. I don't want to mow grass. So, you know, it's just interesting to see those things change.

And I think that if nothing coming out of COVID, people realize that we have less space and we have less, possibly less time in your life. You know, we don't know. You got to take advantage of it, right? There's no expiration for any of our lives.

We don't know when it expires. So I think if anything came out of COVID, it put things in perspective where it's like, let's utilize the space we have and make it more friendly, make it more usable, make it more enjoyable. We don't have to always go out to dinner and restaurants somewhere.

We can actually entertain and be here and being in a nicer, you know, comfortable space. So that whole idea that when I grew up 35, 40 years ago, you know, when I was a kid, you know, that was just a deck. It was a means to get from your garage to the pool, you know, in an above ground pool, perhaps.

So, you know, my dad's idea, again, very frugal, but fixing the deck was flipping the boards and restating them where, you know, today, no one has that kind of leisure time. They want to use, they're so overworked. And unfortunately, you know, we're, we have less and less time.

We don't want to deal with that. So I think that's one, you know, that space becoming really more of an extension of your home. It's just a remodeling project.

It's not a deck anymore. It's a remodeling project. It just so happens to be exterior, right? And then too, a lot of the trends coming from commercial space, you see a lot of items that are on the West coast, that more courtyard area, you know, a lot of front porches have come back, utilizing the front porch and utilizing more of a courtyard area, building that back area.

And I'd say, you know, just seeing a little more contemporary design. You see a lot of that, that contemporary design, you know, taking hold from commercial space into, you know, residential. Yeah.

I think from my perspective, this is a more hope than anything. I mean, we talked about getting back outdoors and things like that. And I, I think that's going to trend help, you know, health and wellness is on the top priority list for homeowners and getting outside.

And I hope that everybody is kind of like you and I, and, and we want, we want to get the kids outside and we want our family to get outside. But my, my fear, my fear is the social aspect of some of this stuff. Whereas, you know, people need to be able to congregate and have a, have a congregating place to share with, with their friends and family.

And so when, when I think about like the future of outdoor living, I think about making it, making it that social atmosphere where people actually literally come together and get, get behind the closed doors. Let's get outside and let's be together. I remember I was part of the project after Hurricane Maria went through the islands and tore it up.

I was a superintendent for, for the power company for a little bit. And, and I got dispatched to go down there and help out with the restoration efforts. And I, I remember going to the US Virgin Islands and I got put on this island and I remember being down there and it was Thanksgiving and nobody on St. John Virgin Islands had their own inside in their house Thanksgiving.

They, everybody literally went down to the center of the town. It's only a four mile wide by six mile long island and everybody was outside. Everybody brought a dish and they shared outdoors together.

And it was the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life. Absolutely. So looking back at our discussion between part one and part two here, what's the one critical lesson you've shared about designing outdoor space for year round usage? My entire process and what's made me so successful over the years is that I've, I've designed this process that solves problems, achieves goals and eliminates surprises.

That's how we create an exceptional experience for, for our clients. And there's a lot that goes behind that, but it's built off the core values of putting people first. Put people first and you lead, advocate and communicate.

We have the power, there's so much power that we have to be able to do good to people. And I know that in the contracting side of, of the industry, there is a negative rap per se, but that's only because a lot of our newer clients, they don't even know how to work a drill. They don't know how to do things.

They don't know what to expect. It's our job to set the expectations and guide them, lead them through, through the, any project and, and lead them with gumption and, and, and be humble and be able to take accountability when, when things go wrong. It's in my contract.

If something's not done right the first time, I will make it right. And people were like, what does that even mean? And I'm like, you got to understand, I'm here to provide service for you. And we do.

So I, I, I will end it with, with lead, advocate and communicate. And the, and the whole process coming into a job, meeting a client and getting ready to design their outdoor space or anything for that matter needs to be based off of what is the goal? How do I achieve it? And how do I eliminate the surprises along the way? Awesome, Travis. Thank you.

Jeff, Jason, do either of you gentlemen have a kind of final word of advice or tip for our homeowners and designers? Again, do research on the products and the materials that one would like to, to, to incorporate in the outdoor design. I would suggest researching, using the internet to look at different design options, whether it's an outdoor kitchen, smart home integration technology, lighting, as we've mentioned before, just do your research and ask lots of questions, whether it's from your architect or designer, your builder, manufacturer's representative, just ask the questions, make sure that you get exactly what you want. There's, there's always a do over, but you want to minimize those opportunities.

And by redoing the research, asking questions and partnering with the right people, you'll have an excellent outcome for your outdoor living project. Yeah, great, great answers by both you guys. I just wanted to add one thing, you know, a lot of manufacturers will have some type of training program or a certified program, look into it, see which companies have that, that can always help maybe extend some of your warranties.

Those are always extremely helpful. Awesome. You guys, thank you so much for that wonderful discussion today.

That is going to conclude this special two-part episode of the Blueprint of Outdoor Living podcast. Travis, Jeff, Jason, thank you again. It's been a pleasure.

Thank you guys for having me. I appreciate it. And thank you.

Thank you, Travis. Thank you, Megan, for your guidance today. Jay, as always, thank you as well.

Of course. Thank you, folks.