The Intersection of HOA’s and Design in Outdoor Living

Designing within HOA-governed and multi-family residential environments presents a unique set of challenges that require technical knowledge, strategic communication, and a deep understanding of regulatory and structural constraints. In this podcast, we’ll share insights on how to effectively manage the intricacies of working with HOA boards, multiple homeowners, budget limitations, and varied design preferences. Attendees will explore the differences between commercial and residential code requirements, understand the approval and change order processes, and learn how to ensure durability and consistency in both new construction and renovation contexts. This podcast course empowers design professionals to create compliant, cohesive, and high-quality living environments through smart planning, clear documentation, and collaborative decision-making.

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Transcript

Hello, and welcome to the SpecShaman podcast, the show that explores the world of building product manufacturers, architects, and engineers, sustainable design, and technology and trends. We engage in thought-provoking discussions with renowned experts, industry pioneers, and visionaries who are making a significant impact in the construction industry. Join us as we explore groundbreaking ideas, revolutionary concepts, and the latest advancements shaping the built environment.

I hope you enjoy this week's episode. Let's get started. Welcome to the Blueprint of Outdoor Living podcast.

I'm your host, Megan Vipond, and today I'm joined by Jeff Cerovi, Architectural Sales Manager for Keylink, and Jason Fora, VP of Marketing Development for Wolf Home Products. We also have special guest, Craig Hannum, President of Marsh Creek Contracting. Combined, they have decades of experience in manufacturing and wholesale building materials distribution across various product lines.

In this episode, we will explore the unique design, communication, and project management challenges of working on HOA and multifamily developments. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you.

Thanks for having us. Craig, to get us started, could you talk about your history in the industry and how you came to be in the role you are today? Sure. Well, I was born into the construction field.

My dad started and ran a construction company since he was 18, and I think I was free labor for a few years there for him. But I went to Penn State University, and after that, I started at a small technology company to try something different. And then I went into and started working for NVR, which is Envy Homes and Ryan Homes, as a project manager.

To get back out into the field, into the passion that I love, I was there for about two years building production homes. And then I went from there to Toll Brothers. And Toll Brothers, I helped run their entire stucco remediation division to help remediate the homes that they were failing, essentially.

I was there for a couple years, and then my dad came to me and asked if I wanted to take over the business. So I jumped at the opportunity, and after a short conversation with my lovely wife, we took the jump. We started March Creek Contracting in 2016, and we started with four guys.

We started with myself, my dad, my uncle, and my brother-in-law. Now we are up to 34 guys, and we have multiple crews up and down the East Coast. And we predominantly work with HOA communities and multifamily projects, but we also sprinkle in single-family homes as well.

So that's kind of a quick 30,000-foot view of who I am, what we do, and what we specialize in. Amazing. So it started as a kind of family business, now working on multifamily projects.

Yep. So what unique design challenges, then, have you seen arise when working on HOA and these multifamily projects? So the uniqueness of the HOA space is everybody has a different opinion. So once we go into these HOAs and multifamily projects, we actually come alongside of the engineering firm that builds out the project manual.

So when we help them build out those project manuals that get sent out to bid, we give our suggestion, but ultimately, the design professional, the engineer on that project will finalize everything. And we typically come and we give the overall pros and cons of each product that they are desiring to put in their HOA project. And we help them see long-term longevity of the product, but also what are the downstream effects of putting different products on there.

Ultimately, personalities, I would say, is one of the most unique challenges that we come into because there's vast personalities that we deal with on the HOA board that certain people want certain things and other people want other things. So that's kind of really our biggest challenge, our biggest hurdle, is to try to get everybody on one page and get everybody moving in the right direction. Yeah.

And you mentioned you guys sprinkle in a little single family there as well. How does that compare? So single families are a little easier to, I wouldn't say necessarily persuade, but they're looking to us as a professional and our experience in the market and what we do with the construction aspect of things. So as they look to us as the expert, we do the same thing.

We do an analysis of initially we ask them what they want, what they like to see on their homes. My biggest sale to them is I have PVC composite siding on my home. So I do this for a living and I don't want to come home and maintain my house because I do this every day, all day long.

And the typical homeowner doesn't enjoy maintaining their house. They want a product that's going to last, that's not high maintenance. And once I get them on board with allowing them to do their own research and give them the tools to do their own research, I ultimately allow them to make the decision because it's their home.

They get to see what they picked every single day. We don't. We don't see it every day once we're done the project and we give them the ability to really take ownership and take part in some of the selections with a little nudge here or there to try to stay on the right path to get the end goal of a great return on investment for their property, good luck and then ultimately a low maintenance product that they don't have to maintain with a great warranty.

So that's why we land a lot with a wolf portrait siding. It's kind of a no brainer for a lot of the homeowners because of the attributes that it has. Absolutely.

So you might see this a little bit with single family homes, but absolutely with these multifamily projects. But how do you navigate then the complexities of managing multiple homeowners and their preferences within that single project? Great question. So every we'll start with the multifamilies first because sometimes single family, the husband and wife disagree as well.

So it's a different we navigate differently through that. But in regards to the multifamily work, sometimes the board has to vote. You know, ultimately we give them options and, you know, depending on what their what their HOA documents say.

Sometimes it's majority. Sometimes it's a percentage of a vote of what it needs to be. It's in unison.

It's fairly rare that we find after providing all the information that we provide for them and equip them to make a wise decision for their community as a whole. We allow them to ultimately make the decision based and based off of that information. And they usually come to a census that everybody on the HOA board has decided and will vote in the same direction.

There are instances more rare that they the board is split and they actually have to go out to the community and provide a survey for the community to vote on. So that's more of a rare occurrence. But ultimately, you know, a lot of it, you know, we've decided on the product.

A lot of these decisions are what type of accents are we putting up? What are some other variables like such as, you know, railing, decking, gutters, downspout, soffits? What do they want to put into that aspect? I know we'll get into budget a little later, but a lot of it has, you know, budget constraints as well. But, you know, ultimately they go on and they vote on it and they're basically guided by the president of the HOA board. You mentioned the budget constraints.

So are there strategies that you employ to address those? I wouldn't necessarily say strategy. We essentially, you know, ask what their budget, what they feel their budget is. We allow each of them to speak.

And then it ultimately comes down to their financials and their multifamily world. So, you know, have they done a reserve study in the past five to 10 years? Have they used that reserve study to prepare their community for a exterior capitalization project like this? Do they have the proper reserves for that information or for that project? So it all depends on those variables. We have a project that their financials weren't very great.

There wasn't a bank that was going to give them lending for the project. So they did a full assessment throughout the whole community. Other communities that we've worked with that have been more financially stable, they have had banks allow to give financing that's basically off of like a 10 to 15 year balloon plan that increases their HOA fees by a couple hundred bucks to get the project done.

So it depends on the HOA, but ultimately, you know, that there are and can be budget restraints because naturally it depends on where they stand financially as a community. And when addressing constraints or navigating different complexities, where does collaborating with reps come into play? I mean, I've gone to Jason a couple of times and beat him over the head and say, hey, we need some help here. And, you know, obviously we can do what we can do and also go to our manufacturers.

And, you know, we have three to four manufacturers that we have bought Wolf with. And you quickly find out which manufacturer is hungry for the business. When it comes to approvals and the approval process with HOA boards, does that influence design decisions at all? Yeah, I mean, I think this kind of goes hand in hand with their with the budget.

Right. So the approval process, typically what happens is there's a project manual that was put together by a design professional, an engineer for the project that essentially is sent out as an RFP to the contractor. So the bid on.

But we don't necessarily have too much involvement in this approval process just because we don't really see the engineer and the design professional usually takes care of this. Awesome. Thank you, Craig.

Now, Jason, can you shed some light and maybe share an experience where a homeowner feedback significantly altered a project's design? Well, I think like Craig mentioned, you know, getting involved with your reps makes a huge part in this process. Craig has always leaned back on me and with a great partnership, you know, we work together to really convince that HOA, of course, the board is comprised, you know, usually of owners from the community. So getting in front of them is really, really the key process and winning them over by just, you know, explaining the process, which Craig clearly has well defined.

Right. As far as contingency processes for, you know, for backup in case there's problems, that's probably a bigger one to lean on. Right.

If there's issues, you never know when you peel the onion away, you know how many problems are behind it. So I think that's really important. I think leaning on your reps, you know, to help with credibility, you know, your question there on how to declare communication, of course, is just really just working with partners and working with people that you feel confident that can provide integrity and deliver a very concise, concise message.

You know, it's it's selling is really just about persuading and influencing people to do what you want and not in a bad way, but in a way that is helpful for them and they can see the value in it. Right. People buy on value.

I've always tried to explain this when I train a lot of contractors. You know, people there's there's no question price is very important, but people want to see where their where their money goes further and where the value is. And so that's, I think, really the key role there and in discussing how this thing lays out is just being upfront and explaining, you know, how these different price points need to be hit and contingencies.

If if the you know, if you go over budget, what you can do, you definitely don't always get better design with less, you know, with less materials. And that's just it doesn't always work that way, unfortunately. But there are there are things you can do to, I would say, to conveniently it's not really necessarily saying the term cutting a corner, but it's you can do some things to to value engineer in some ways to get a compromise to be met.

But there's no point in putting the lipstick on the proverbial pig. Right. So, you know, you pay for it in the end either way.

And that's one thing I think a lot of times with clear communication back, Craig does a great job in general of articulating that process where, you know, it's it's going to cost more in the long run. The maintenance costs in these products and multifamily long term, you know, depending on who owns the property can really add up. And if they're not managed properly, you know, I know working with Craig on several of these in around the eastern Pennsylvania market, you know, I've really caught up with unfortunately with the board and they end up, you know, and they end up in a lot of litigation because there's no money left in the coffer to kind of manage it properly.

So definitely clear communication, I'd say, is paramount in getting those getting those homeowners on the board that are that that are leaders, the leaders of that community that have unfortunately taken a very thankless role. Right. They're they're nonpaid board members with with a tremendous amount of responsibility to act in accordance for the rest of that development.

And it's a lot of weight on their shoulders. And so we try to sympathize with them and understand the perspective that they're coming from, but, you know, also influence them in a way that, you know, we can help to better their community and also spread those costs out and understand that maintenance costs long term. Yeah, absolutely.

Communication is definitely key. I just want to comment one more thing on on communication. And in addition to communication, setting clear expectations of the project, I'm sure I know working with Jay and Jay working with Craig, expectations are critical.

Proper expectations are to need to be set, whether it's an HOA, as we've been working with Craig on a project recently, or just with a family unit, you know, an individual family, always setting that expectation and that level so that, you know, and then striving to meet or exceed the expectation that's mutually agreed upon. That's that's very important, in my opinion. Absolutely.

So with communication and expectations, what are some best practices then for presenting these design proposals to the HOA board? So what we like to do, it's a simple, we have a little four by four sample board that we bring to our expo shows. And it's essentially that we have house wrap on it and then we have a PVC wolf trim around the outside. But then we also have the siding that is in the pockets of the sample board.

So when, you know, especially in these expos, they come and see it, they they're like, wow, this is this is something different. It really looks like cedar siding. You know, and then it gives us the ability to share and show, you know, the seam system and the seam plate system.

So we use those boards when we present design ideas to the HOA board. But we also allow our past projects when they when they're interested in the wolf, the wolf portrait, they'll go through and they will come and they'll go to past past communities that we have worked on. And and when they see it and they can go up and touch it and see how sharp it looks to to the ability to to really visualize what they're paying for, then they get behind it rather quickly.

This is why when we work with HOA boards, if they're stuck, we just ask to do one building. Let's just do a prototype building so your community can get behind what they're essentially paying for over time. Because if you can't see it and you just see it online and you can't touch it and feel it, see the end product, then it's hard to really go through and essentially see the value in it.

So, you know, when they go through and they see the value in it, they quickly jump on board. And this is where we give other options as well. And it's kind of an analysis that we give other other other communities that we haven't haven't done wolf portrait siding on.

And they'll go to those communities as well. And we we really like to pound home the long term maintenance savings that they're going to experience. But not only that, the getting the old cladding off and the new cladding on, especially with the wolf portrait siding and the new details that we're doing, the return on investment, you know, sometimes pays for the assessment.

So a lot of the homeowners have. This is a perfect example in the one project we had in Eagle View up here in Downingtown area, Pennsylvania, they they wanted fiber cement, fiber cement, fiber cement. We were able to give them other options just to have them allow to make an educated decision because they own the outside of the buildings and they were spending an astronomical amount of money on the maintenance costs for their stucco.

So my simple question was, you know, let's try to get that maintenance costs down as low as we can. And these are these are some options that you have. They ultimately landed with Wolf.

So there was about 10 percent of the community that still wanted stucco and or fiber cement. A couple of those homeowners that were in that group very quickly changed their minds once they got their home reassessed and they sold it for almost triple what the assessment was. So, you know, that's just a prime example of of what a exterior capitalization would will do to a multifamily community, a single family home by getting the old product off and putting a new product on.

And they see the value in that. And that's essentially just going back on our history and our experience with this specific niche that we're in with the with the HOAs and the multifamily work. We we we like to hit on that and hit on that hard because not everybody really understands and can grasp that aspect.

So if the homeowners would go after their project is done and obviously if the interest rates are are appropriate, but they could go and refinance their home and pay off their assessment and the value of their property has gone through the roof where then the biggest issue that they experience is the assessment office stopping by. So this is just some of the practices we use to to present to the HOA boards, to the expos and through the individual meetings that we have with them. So now talking about commercial versus residential from a design perspective, what are some key differences in those projects? From a design perspective, we see a lot of crossover today, a lot of the multifamily commercial projects that KeyLink is seeing today are copying the residential detail or style of railing, both infill and rail profile and the like.

The biggest difference being the scope of the of the project itself, multi-story versus single deck on the back of a property. So, quite frankly, the lines are a little bit blurred as far as the design perspective today. A lot of that is trying to be copied over.

I do recommend, though, based on cable's been a very popular infill of late, both vertical and horizontal cable. And I suggest that, you know, consideration of use and for that matter, abuse be considered when selecting the proper the proper infill for a project. I wouldn't necessarily recommend the horizontal cable on a five or six story building just because one, it's a maintenance issue and two, while it's not in the code, the opportunity to climb said cable and hurt is certainly there.

So that has to be weighed out carefully in that in that application. But again, we see a lot of different things. Square baluster still remains the most popular infill or just the baluster in general or picket as maybe some people refer to it.

It's still the most popular infill today for railing manufacturers. I can speak for that and for KeyLink as well. Again, I think really it's just the lines get blurred a little bit and it's just really the scope change.

Yeah, I would want to add to that also, you know, when it comes to commercial versus residential, there's always different codes that will apply. So that will change some of your design. You know, when you think of railing commercially, it needs to jump to 42.

You know, decking needs to be 12 inches on center and your warranties will change. Our decking warranty for commercial is is definitely different because of the wear and tear you experience on a commercial job versus residential. So so look into that.

You know, there are some exceptions to that rule when it comes to Craig working on our siding. We do some supplemental warranties that we would otherwise not do because we want to capture that in the multifamily market. But in general, I'd say, yeah, just pay attention to the warranties and any of the code changes that vary between commercial and residential.

Agreed. Thanks, Jay, for clarifying that as well. Durability and maybe even aesthetics vary between commercial and residential or single versus multifamily.

How does that alter material choices? Well, again, similar to what Craig had spoken about before. We want to make sure that we're selecting the correct product to get the longest life cycle out of that product, whether it's a homeowner making a decision for his personal property or an HOA making the decision for multiple buildings on a particular site, sitting down, looking at materials, comparing, contrasting materials, finishes on materials, warranties, comparing, contrasting that, ideally looking at the durability. Last thing I've often said to people, if I sell you railing today, this year, I'm not selling it to you again next year.

It's a product that's going to last multiple decades, properly maintained and much like today's decking. Jay and Craig can speak to decking and some of the Wolf's signing products as well. They're designed to last multiple decades.

And again, just the durability is key and you pay for that. It's a small cost overall, but it's still a cost that has to be considered. Jason, a moment ago, you briefly mentioned warranties.

What considerations are there for warranties in these commercial projects? And does that influence the design decision? It can. It really comes down, I think, again, to back to budget, like Craig said, and explaining and expressing the value play. For example, I use the example in selling this to a single family home, but it would apply to commercial jobs.

If you're putting decking down and you're putting it on a substructure made of wood, I'm not knocking wood today, but unfortunately it doesn't hold up like it once did. And so you're putting these 35 and 50 year warranties on a product that doesn't carry any warranty. So there is alternatives.

There is a product that Owens Corning makes that's a structural plastic product that has a fiberglass mesh inside. There's some steel options out there. There's aluminum subframe.

And while you do pay more for it, you have to look at it as an investment. To Craig's point at the very beginning, you're penny wise, pound foolish. If you don't manage the warranties across the whole scope, then you're being compromised by putting a really nice product on a very weak, weak frame.

And we know that that wood's not going to hold up. So you just got to really manage it properly and I think be up front and explain it to the owners, explain it to the board, explain to the developer, whoever's involved, explain to the engineers and then let them choose. But it's one of those where it never makes sense to, again, to put your investment out there and then have the substructure, your frame be the weak component.

So I was frustrated to see that. Other things to consider with warranties, and I'll speak specifically about KeyLink and our railing product, why we offer a warranty on all of our product. We offer a waiver warranty, as do many manufacturers in our space.

Oftentimes, it's most likely it's prorated. Residentially versus non-residential, there are different lengths of time that they are covered. In residential, there's a five-year prorated warranty.

And in commercial applications or non-residential applications, it's a two-year prorated warranty where we have a technical team that goes out and if there's a service issue, we handle it. So those are other things that, for peace of mind, and some of the things that we like to do and offer to do on a regular basis is work with the contractors early on doing site visits, pre-installation site visits to make certain that the product is understood and that the ease of installation that we design into our product is easily attained by a contractor. Today, we're finding more and more contractors are using our product, KeyLink product, for the first time in some of these non-residential applications.

And we work very carefully to ensure that the ease of installation is there so that they can maximize their time and not, again, use of materials, shop drawings, all those details that we get involved with. Very important. So how does certain requirements like maybe 12-inch on-center decking in commercial projects impact your design approach? It shouldn't really affect the design too much on a 12-inch center.

You know, it really comes down, I think like one example would be for, you know, as far as decking goes, most folks that install PVC decking would install it on a 12-inch center anyway. You have far less deflection and more control. So those are kind of best practices that we always incorporate on the training side.

But, you know, when it comes to a good example of that would be actually on Jeff's side where he has this fascia mount where those fascia mount brackets can push everything to the outside. So when you're thinking about a requirement on a commercial project that may impact the design, you know, if you have a small balcony type of application and you want to get a little extra space on a tiny balcony, it will make a considerable amount of difference. And that pushes those all to the outside.

So knowing that those items even exist, I think is half the battle. You know, it's definitely a war for information out there. And, you know, it's our job to, you know, explain the options that people do have and obviously do our job and sell that.

But having examples like a fascia mount where you can push your railing to the outside is very, very helpful. And we see that oftentimes in these multi-story projects, as Jay mentioned, where you have a small outdoor balcony or deck space, by putting the post on the ledger using a fascia mount bracket, the rule of thumb is that you pick up a half a square foot of usable space for every lineal foot of railing. So, again, you can pick up 10, 15, 20 square feet of usable space rather quickly.

There's a tradeoff. Of course, there's some expense to the brackets, but it's not something that is cost prohibitive. The other times that we see that type of approach of using the fascia mount bracket is when on a second floor or multi-story deck and where they have a finished ceiling underneath, the requirement or the desire by both the architect and the contractor to minimize water infiltration onto that ceiling vis-a-vis a leak, the opportunity to use the fascia mount bracket, you're not directly mounting above it to minimize the opportunity for that water infiltration to possibly ruin that finished roof space or ceiling space underneath that deck.

But again, it's kind of another reason that we see that oftentimes specified and then installed. So another potential impact on your design is building codes. Can you discuss how building codes might differ between commercial and residential projects and how that affects the overall planning? If you reference going back to the ICC, the International Code Council, they update every three years, as all our design professional colleagues know that.

Currently, we're in 2024 code year. At this point, the ICC then breaks out into the International Building Code for non-residential or commercial applications and then the IRC, the International Residential Code. As Jay alluded to earlier, the biggest difference visually would be that of the height requirement.

Thirty-six inches is the requirement for residential, forty-two inches is the requirement for commercial or non-residential. We also look at the deflection standards. Deflection standards, when we look at test data, there's a design standard and then there's a testing protocol or safety factor, I should say, that's incorporated in that.

That safety factor is two and a half times the design requirement. So we're looking at minimum of 500 pounds of pressure on some of these on the post and the railing sections. I've witnessed a number of times, I know Jay's been into our facility as well, when we test products, we test products to the loading requirements and we test to ultimate failure.

And we're getting significant loading on these posts and as well as the sections. And then it's all recorded by a third party structural engineer and then written into a final report. We've recently uncovered with some manufacturers, and I brought this up to a few architects in some recent conversations, there's been some manufacturers, and I don't have any names off the top of my head, that have been doing testing via mathematics.

And they've taken basically the alloys and then they've done mathematical equations based on wall thickness and length of posts and some other factors that go into it. And they basically state in their reports that the material tested, albeit mathematically, by a mathematical equation, will meet or exceed the code. Manufacturers like KeyLink and many others will physically test the materials and then have both written and videographic evidence of those testing processes and photographic evidence as well.

So it's very important to make sure when specifying this, what materials that you're specifying and do they meet or exceed the codes that are required for the project. So let's hone in now on multifamily, specifically HOA projects. What makes the process of managing those HOA projects lengthy or tedious when it comes from a design standpoint? I'll touch on this.

You know, just working alongside of the design professionals, the engineers, and really, you know, the first point of communication is typically to us in the expos and some of the HOAs that we have worked with. And then we advise them that they need to get a design professional on board to make a project manual. And from what we have heard and seen is everybody is running a million miles an hour.

And it's hard to get everybody on the same page, to have meetings, to work through different aspects of it. So it's not like you have a husband or wife that can sit down at, you know, at one time to review everything. It's based off of monthly board meetings.

So this is what typically takes it so long is, you know, they have very high paying jobs as a HOA board member, as we joke, and their time is valuable. And typically, they try to get everything crammed in into an hour to two hour meeting once a month. So I'm sure you guys can imagine the challenges behind that.

And then, you know, you loop in, you know, schedule conflicts, stuff of that sort. But ultimately, what we help with the design professional is we like to provide deadline dates. And if we provide deadline dates to keep them focused and keep them on track, then there are certain milestones that you can hit in regards to getting the project to construction.

Typically, a process like this in the design standpoint could last six months, it could last two years. So it all depends on the availability of the board members because naturally they aren't from the construction background. So they're learning this process as they go.

And, you know, the community has voted them on the board to be a representation for the entire community. So they want to make sure that they're diligent in what they are communicating to the design professional, but then ultimately to the community. And we just had a pre-construction meeting with a multifamily project we're starting in September.

And we walked with the board through the entire community and not surprising at all, they forgot where some of the products were going. They're like, oh, we didn't know that was going there. We didn't know that was going there.

When just a year and a half ago, they're the ones who designed it that way with the engineer. So, you know, naturally, you know, everyone's lives are very busy, busy, busy. So trying to slow it down and document everything just so there could be minutes or notes of reference back on.

I'm a very systematic kind of guy. So anything or any HOA or any person I deal with has their very own folder. So the way that I can maximize what we do at Marsh Creek is I have them in different folders and aspects.

And through that, we can maximize what we're doing and who we're talking to and to try to get that process quickly move forward. But typically the best part or the easiest way to do this is to set an expectation, set a deadline and have milestones for the board to hit. Because if they don't have that, it could go on for years and years and years and years.

Absolutely. So it's one thing if everything goes as planned, but then how do you handle change orders? So typically the change orders when we do projects with the multifamily space, we provide unit costs to different change order items. So if they want to add extra siding in this space or that space, or even if we take the exterior cladding off and there's damage underneath of it, the HOA from the point of the contract knows how much a sheet of plywood is, how much a square foot of extra wolf portrait siding would be, how much per linear foot key link railing is to add additional in, which we have come across in our Myrtle Beach project that we have going on at Myrtle Beach Resort.

They wanted to add more key link railing. So they just referenced back to our unit cost. We're able to get the linear footage and put together a change order with the design professional in the AIA format and get it all signed off on.

And it was super easy and super smooth. So the most important part is just giving them information up front, allowing them an easy place to go reference that, aka the contract. And then it gives them the ability to know that, all right, well, if we want to add this here or here, we can just go to the unit costs and they don't even have to reach out to us.

Obviously they do because they want us to confirm the pricing on it so they can go back to the community to add or deduct from the contract. So it gives them the ability to do so. But everything's up front, which really does minimize the disruptions of the entire process, not only just design, but also into the construction phase.

Craig, can you share maybe some examples of compromised construction that you've encountered and how you went about addressing that? Well, every project we find compromised construction. It just is based off of the severity of it. A project we finished in 2022, Bucktown Crossing in Pottstown, PA, when we were taking off the stucco on the front balconies, there was actually no lumber at all behind the stucco.

The stucco was holding up the front balconies. So as we were starting to take off the stucco, we had to immediately abort that and shore up the decks and get so it didn't collapse. That was pretty significant, obviously, where we had to move immediately to make sure that the units were safe.

These were three-story decks. There's no doubt in my mind if they didn't do the remediation work on their complex that someone would have been hurt within six months. Absolutely.

So as soon as we found that on the first building, they told the entire rest of the community you cannot use the decks until the remediation project was done. So going through that, not knowing that we had to work hand in hand with the design professional to quickly get us a design over and that we could collaborate on and work through rather quickly. What's nice that helps us expedite it is we've done this so much, we've really seen it all.

So we really come to our design professionals or engineers that oversee the project and we give them solutions and they see if it works for them and their design. We don't want them to spend a week trying to figure it out where maybe we've already come across this in a past project, might have been a little different. But we always want to come to the design professional with different options of what we feel would be an appropriate fix and waterproofing method for those areas.

So how important is it then to work with experienced and trustworthy partners? I'll answer that. I'll answer that for you, Craig, because it kind of segues right in, right? It's so important, right? It's everything. And it's Craig's made my life much more pleasurable to live when you have really trustworthy people.

And I know he'd probably say the same for both me and Jeff. But the whole point is to have people with integrity, right? You know, it's the whole the whole process, unfortunately, as we've gotten, I think, into this busier and busier, you know, corporate setting and just lifestyle people in general moving faster and faster. But, you know, just slow down and work with the people that you can trust.

It is still a people's person, you know, business and work with the people that solve problems, right? I think there's too many situations. The same compromised deck that Craig was referencing in that in that multifamily project was due to extremely shoddy install and they didn't flash any of the ledgers. The ledgers were not flashed properly.

Water was getting in behind. Stucco, we know, will hold water. There was no flashing detail on the back of any of those ledger boards.

And so it just comes down to working with people with integrity. You know, it's we need to be viewed as trusted advisors. And if your reps are not acting as a trusted advisor, you need to move on and find someone who can.

That's the unfortunate reality. I mean, you need to be a consultant. You know, if it's outside your lane, you need to you need to make people be aware of that.

But, you know, be a consultant across the board. I trained so many reps that when I work with them to to try to explain to them that, you know, learn other systems and be a resource. You may not even get a sale on it, but be a resource.

People will always lean on you if you are acting, you know, with their best interests at heart. Yes, absolutely. Now, with all of these processes and challenges, what role does documentation play in managing design changes and ensuring accountability? I mean, really, it's everything right.

I mean, we we we document our documentation. You kind of have to in this world because it's not just managing design changes and ensuring accountability, but it's really like managing the community members. It's, you know, managing the and setting expectation with the engineers, the, you know, the townships, the banks that these these associations work with.

So what we do at Marsh Creek that has worked really successfully is, you know, we do pre-construction pictures, everything. We also document, you know, once we open up a wall, pictures before and after pictures of everything. It's a it's a CYA, but it's also just something that is good for the association to have after the project's over to know essentially what they were paying for in the in the additionals.

So it gives the ability for them to to do all that. But then it also gives the association the ability to share with the community, hey, this is why we're doing this. This is this is what we are talking about.

You know, overall documentation really is everything. And, you know, we I constantly try to find different programs that can hold all the space of all the pictures and documentation, because really we just need to do that to make sure that everybody is held accountable, accountable just in case something happens. We've had community members come up and say, oh, you damaged X or you damaged Y. And then I go back to the pictures and I'm like, oh, well, can you look at this picture before we started? It was damaged then.

You know, there are a number of of homeowners that will take the construction phase as an opportunity to get as much free stuff as they possibly can, even if it was damaged before construction. So that's why we do it that way. That's why we document that in that sense.

And then also the design professionals, they come out once or twice a week for typical projects and they'll also document pictures as well. So and, you know, a lot of the projects we work with an engineering firm called BECS on two projects. They do a phenomenal job at documentation, but we also have production meetings and progress meetings once a week that they lead, that the board is a part of, that we're a part of.

It kind of goes back to the communication aspect of it. So we work through as we go through the project, setting expectations, giving them an update, working on budgetary. Hey, are we hitting our budget with our contingency money, stuff of that sort? So it's super important across the board.

Yeah, absolutely. And you talk about before and after photos, which is going to be absolutely key in renovations. But, you know, there's also new construction projects where you don't have the opportunity for those before photos.

How does your design approach differ then between new construction and renovation projects within HOAs? Well, we don't do two. We do my wife and I, we build new construction homes. You know, we probably do one every three to five years or so.

I love doing it. She loves designing the homes. So we try to, you know, at least do that together every three to five years just because that's something we really enjoy doing together.

What's nice about that is we ultimately make all decisions and we don't have to wait on anybody. Her being the designer, I sometimes have to ring her in, too. A little bit because, you know, we do have to stay on budget as well.

But I would I would say with the design aspect of it, we're just starting to partner up with custom home builders in our area for Wolf Portrait Siding. I was just talking to Jay yesterday about a builder that we're partnering up with. And as soon as they see the warranty, the long term maintenance costs or lack thereof of the portrait siding and the trim work, then they're like, wow, this is kind of a no brainer if we're going to slap our, you know, over and above our warranties as well.

So new construction, custom home builders are really starting to catch on to this as well just because of the longevity of it. You know, it's not vinyl, it's not fiber cement, but it's another option that is I would say towards the higher end quality of of of materials that we have out there that that lasts. It looks identical, in my personal opinion, a lot of others to cedar siding.

So if they want to have a cedar siding look and not have the maintenance of cedar siding, this is an awesome opportunity for them. So focusing on renovation projects, then what are some unique challenges in designing multifamily when designing in multifamily settings compared to maybe those single family homes? I'll answer that real quick. Just my take on it would be is you have a lot of moving parts that you have to tie in.

Right. So if there's one feature, whether it's a roof detail or a certain gable detail that had recessed windows versus proud windows, there could be numerous amounts of different options that you have to consider relative to, again, peeling back an onion where if it's single family homes or new construction, you're dealing with one person versus maybe 50 or 100 and you're dealing with a project from the ground up where you can you can change some of your details as you go based on an architect's recommendation. So definitely utilizing it, number one, a design professional is extremely helpful.

They can help get a lot of the details kind of sorted out before things, you know, before the dust has to settle. So then how do you integrate modern design elements into renovations while respecting that existing architectural context? Again, that's where I'd stay in my lane. That's where an extremely helpful and resourceful design professional architect would come into play.

They do that for a living. They can make things look integrated. They have a great knack for it.

It's their lane. So contact someone that you can through references or through a testimonial or even just asking folks in the trade if you don't have one. But the AIA Association has listed architects.

But it's great to find a professional like that. They will help to seamlessly bring those projects together. And that's definitely not my lane.

And what are some considerations for material selection in renovations to ensure compatibility with the existing structures? Well, I think like Craig said, you know, items that look like a traditional material, it's good to always lay out like a storyboard and maybe give different options to the board. You know, I know, Craig, you mentioned that one project where they just didn't have the budget to go with the higher higher end siding and they ended up going with vinyl, which most architects would probably cringe over. But there is a there is an unfortunate balance between budget and reality.

And I think laying it out and seeing a storyboard, you know, having having your I know like Craig would do is build, you know, sections of samples so that the board can see it. You know, you need to be able to see it, not just see it off of a rendering. I mean, with the multifamily front, like Jason just said, it really does come down to budget.

You know, it depends on what kind of financial financial shape the community is in. So trying to turn around and, you know, give them like for like the one thing that we don't want to try to do too much is have such a transformation because they have been looking at their home. They've been looking at their community for 30, 40, 50 years.

And sometimes when you have such a drastic change, some may love it, but it might take some time also to get used to. But ultimately, just like Jason said, at the end of the day, it depends on what their finances are. And we still want to try to provide the best quality product for the least amount of cost.

Right. So but also keep the warranty aspect in it as well. Now, if we can that, you know, that project that Jason just referenced, it started off with Wolf and they just they didn't have the stomach for for the call, the overall cost for their project.

But it wasn't just Wolf. It was a bunch of other variables as well that then they had to scale down. And when they scaled down, then they found a price point that they could work with and the community was happy with.

And then they voted on it and got the 67 percent vote to move forward with the project. Now, with those communities, what's nice is we can go in and we have the ability to work with each individual homeowner to then work on their decks or their railings. You know, that is specific to the homeowner, not the HOA board.

So we can come through and we have in the past that if we can't get the porch or siding involved in a community that we can get the serenity decking in or the key link and people see the quality of it and they can afford it and they appreciate the longevity and how long it is or how long it lasts and a warranty aspect of it. And and they they jump on that and they love it and they put that on their home. And then just like anything else, you know, once one person does it, they're like, oh, we love your deck and your railing.

And then essentially they're they're the sales representative for us and for Wolf because it naturally looks amazing and they're happy with the price points of it. So that's all that I would add to that. All right, gentlemen, as we wrap up this episode, what is one final thought or words of wisdom that you'd like to share with our audience today? Well, I guess I'll start on this from what I from what I learned through our career and building out our our company here is, you know, relationships are key and you want to take care of the the people that are that make you who you are.

Right. So our staff and our management, we really are based off of and trying to run it like servant leaders. You know, I would never give my guys something that I wouldn't do myself.

And I would really think that if we had more of that in this world, that that we would definitely be in a better situation and better off the way we are. And, you know, also being OK to agree to disagree and still respect each other. And move forward towards a common goal, you know, because we even me and my GM, we don't always agree on things, but I've learned things from him.

He's learned things from me. Same, you know, same with Jason and Jeff and and just a collaborative effort that, you know, really try to humble ourselves and really learn from the next person. And and and trying to hand that off to the next generation is really important.

And I think that's what really drives March Creek Contracting and and and our relationship here with Wolf, with Jason and Jeff and Wolf. Couldn't say it better than Craig already has again, just be humble, be willing to learn, be willing to improve, listen and collaborate with with those that those that are around you and to be to be the best you possibly can be each and every day. Thank you.

Fantastic. Craig, Jeff, Jason, thank you so much for offering your perspectives and real world experiences on navigating the design within HOA and multifamily landscape. We really appreciate your time and insights today.

Thank you for listening to the Spec Shaman podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to our show and leave us a review. A huge thank you to our guests who made this show possible.

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