The Intersection of Materials and Safety in Outdoor Living

This podcast explores how modern material innovations are redefining outdoor living design through improved performance, safety, and sustainability. Participants will examine the shortcomings of traditional framing and decking systems and learn how composite and alternative materials address common structural failures, moisture intrusion, and durability challenges. Through analysis of building codes, real-world case studies, and evolving industry standards, design professionals will gain practical insights to enhance occupant safety, extend system longevity, and achieve more resilient exterior environments.

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Transcript

Hello, and welcome to the SpecShaman podcast, the show that explores the world of building product manufacturers, architects and engineers, sustainable design and technology and trends. We engage in thought-provoking discussions with renowned experts, industry pioneers, and visionaries who are making a significant impact in the construction industry. Join us as we explore groundbreaking ideas, revolutionary concepts, and the latest advancements shaping the built environment.

I hope you enjoy this week's episode. Let's get started. Welcome to the Blueprint of Outdoor Living podcast.

I'm your host, Megan Vipond. In this episode, we will explore the evolving world of outdoor living, from decks and railings to the framing systems that support them. We'll explore how material innovation, codes, and sustainability considerations are transforming the way architects and builders approach outdoor design.

Joining me today are three experts who bring unique perspectives on performance, safety, and long-term value in outdoor structures. We have Jeff Sirovi, Architectural Sales Manager for KeyLink and Jason Fora, VP of Marketing Development for Wolf Home Products. We also have special guest Casey Engel, Director of Strategic Marketing and Lumber at Owens Corning.

Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. How are you? Good to see you again.

Thank you. Now, to kick us off, Casey, could you talk to us about your history in the industry and how you came to be in the role you are today? Yeah, absolutely. It's a pleasure to be here and to be able to have this conversation with you all.

I didn't grow up in building materials or products. In fact, I started my career working in innovation and marketing with brands like Nike, Carhartt, Chevrolet, but always focused on using innovation and using marketing more as a problem-solving device, trying to figure out ways to improve products, improve experiences, and ultimately make things better. I joined Owens Corning about 10 years ago, where I've been really fortunate to find a role where I can learn about opportunities within building products and the way contractors build and architects spec, and frankly, the way homeowners live, and identify irritants, identify problems, and try to innovate that with materials.

First example of that was getting the chance to lead development of our Pink Bar fiberglass rebar product, replacing steel, all the way from ideation to the retail shelf. And for the last four years, I've been fortunate enough to work on our lumber business, which included an acquisition of a decking company based out in Florida, and now expansion to structural framing and a recent relaunch of a marine-grade decking brand platform. Always been focused on creating new things and trying to solve problems, and this is a brave new world for me, so it's a lot of fun.

Well, amazing. Thank you for joining us today. How have design priorities for outdoor living spaces shifted over the past decade? Yeah, you know, I think they've shifted a lot, and frankly, either shifting again or continuing the shift.

The idea of a backyard deck, about a pool, a lake house dock even, used to be something that was more of a point-in-time use. I'm going to go here, I'm going to go do this. And what we're seeing now is much more of an expectation that the outdoor experience is simply an extension of the indoor experience.

The spaces work together, life happens inside and outside, and I think with that, there's a lot more involvement in the choice of materials and expectations around what they do. We're seeing people evaluate color and style on their exterior decks in ways we didn't used to. The role of railings and lighting, acoustics, all types of things.

Even in an adjacent category, we're seeing shingles, excuse me, even in an adjacent category like exteriors, we see shingle color mattering now. So I think folks are looking at outdoor living as a true extension of living, and the expectations are consistent with that of indoors, almost comparable to cabinets, countertops, or even furniture in some cases. So new materials have definitely played a huge role in that shift then.

What role do you see them playing in improving performance and safety for decks, railings, and framing? Yeah, you know, as I just said, people expect that outside and inside to be a seamless experience. And with that shift, things have to work better. They have to function better, and they have to last longer.

Those are some of those expectations on the brands and products, and I don't think it's just innovation for innovation's sake or some race to performance to have a stronger data sheet. I think it's much more about improving the way people live, having things that are more durable, higher performing, and frankly, more integrated. Deck safety has always been a topic of conversation, but seeing much more of a shift now from talking about the tragedy, if you were talking about the problem, to more of a conversation around how to avoid it, how to build better, how to build more sustainably, not just sustainable from an eco standpoint, but from a human standpoint, thinking about ways to ensure better connections, better framing, better integration, and to do that in a way that outperforms weather and moisture and other traditional barriers.

At the end of the day, outdoor living means living outdoors, and you want to do that not just for a year or two or for a month of the year. You want to do that on your own terms. Longevity seems to be a reoccurring theme in modern design conversations.

Why is that becoming such a key factor for both professionals and clients? It's a great question, and I think it goes back to that idea of the investment and the expectations. We're not just talking about a small wood deck in the corner of the backyard anymore. We're talking about outdoor living and kitchens, and as I said, lighting, railings, and these true entertainment systems that work together, there's been so much amazing innovation in this category.

I don't know of a time when deck boards looked better, had better design. I think about so many amazing things happening with railing and lighting available. All of that changes the game, and at the same time, you're spending more money to get that.

The design community is really sweating the details around how do I design something and how do I expect something that brings to life the best of those environments? When all those things are innovated together, it's a really beautiful thing. The challenge is if they don't do what they're supposed to do, the level of frustration is much higher. From what we're seeing in the market, both with homeowners at the end of the day, but with contractors and designers or upchain, they expect things to work better than what they're doing currently.

Those set of expectations are really tough for brands. You have to make sure that not only does your product work the way it's supposed to, that it works the way it's supposed to, integrated with those other pieces, and unfortunately, the area of framing and wood specifically as the historical framing substrate just doesn't allow the performance it used to. How does the issue of building materials not lasting as long as they should affect architects' specifiers, and ultimately the end user? Yeah, so I think it just comes down to liability.

When you look at folks, it's their integrity, it's their liability that they're attaching to it when they specify something that may not last as long, and ultimately, you're not going to get a very happy client. So whether it's an architect, specifier, any end user, if it's the weakest part of the link and all those parts aren't congruent in longevity, you're going to end up with someone being dissatisfied. Jason, I think that word dissatisfied is a really good one here, because you dream this concept to come to life, and you design this concept to life, and you build it to spec, and then it lasts 18 months, right? And I think in that level of dissatisfaction, folks want better, and they're not willing to accept something that performs at a lower rate.

Yeah, and I think, coupled with the fact that I think a lot of people are realizing that the disposable society that we do live in is pretty frustrating, right? We all live in a manufactured obsolescence where you buy a water heater, you buy a refrigerator, and you just have an expectation that, you know what, it's going to just break in seven years. And that's just unacceptable. I think most people would realize that they pay a little more money.

I just don't want to deal with the hassle. And if I may add, we're also seeing today, living segment, the increase in spending on these particular projects, and Jay, you know this as well as possibly Casey, with the materials that are available today, an outdoor build is no longer a $10,000 or $12,000 expense. It could be, but we're seeing projects that are well into the six figures, and most recently we just saw with our North American Deck and Rail Association, the competition that's coming up.

They've expanded the categories upwards of a half a million dollars now for project thresholds. So it's not unusual to see that with all the materials that are going into it, the pools and some of the other things. So again, back to that, they want materials that are going to be long lasting because of the investment that's associated with it.

Now, of course, longevity often comes back to the materials we're using, which leads us into the next part of our discussion and how traditional materials are performing today. So how has the quality of pressure treated lumber changed in recent years and what factors have influenced that shift? I think at the highest level, we've seen legislative based changes in the chemical treating process. And while there's a great deal of published science and white papers on this topic, it can be explained fairly simply.

Historically, pressure treated lumber leveraged arsenic to handle that treatment. The arsenic in the treatment process gave it a pretty high level performance. It resisted external environment factors, it resisted moisture, it allowed the wood to perform the way historically we view wood should perform.

After 2004, there were some changes where we shifted to more of a copper based treatment. And that copper based solution, frankly, just doesn't produce the same level of performance. Now, I'm not here advocating for arsenic because there certainly are some, it was a great change for human wellness.

However, that did impact the quality of lumber. So you have your chemical treating change, I think there's been some impact due to fast forestry and other practices. And because there hasn't really ever been an alternative to lumber, I think the industry has just been tolerant of it.

It would probably be a bit too strong to stay asleep at the wheel. But that's the way it feels really from an outside looking in perspective. The industry's done something a certain way forever.

There haven't really been viable alternatives until now. And I think we're actively looking to introduce those alternatives, both from a design build and homeowner awareness standpoint. And I would add a couple with the chemical changes, the engineering behind it, right? We have a lot of engineered lumber where we're treating it like a crop.

And I understand the fundamentals of business and it's treated like a crop, we need to grow it fast and we need to cut it down quickly to be able to turn profits. And what's happened is we've engineered a wood to really fail. We've engineered wood today to be a sponge.

Old growth is a protected tree, all those trees have already been cut down. Those old growth rings had a lot of preservatives built into them by nature. And when you make trees grow fast, you basically make it a very effective sponge with a lot of sapwood.

And the job of sapwood is to move water. And that's what we've done. We've made a very effective sponge and unfortunately the consumer pays for it.

Yeah, Jay, if you go back to second, third grade elementary school science class and challenge anyone listening to the podcast next time you're at a lumber yard or anywhere, take a look at the tree rings. The wood we saw 30 years ago, 20 years ago had very tight rings and usually more than 30 to 40. You'll be lucky to find seven or eight rings in a tree now.

And to Jason's point, that's baby wood, young wood, sapwood at best. And it's literally just a sponge. Now you mentioned arsenic.

How has the move from arsenic-based treatments to a copper-based solution impacted wood performance? Post 2004, the alternatives really heavily rely on copper as that primary biocide. While the copper does effectively kill fungi and attracts insects, it does actually leach more readily than that fixed arsenic. So it's going to leach more moisture.

It's going to hold. And what's really interesting about that is with that moisture leaching, it can actually accelerate corrosion. So if you think about steel, aluminum, any type of untreated fastener or bracket, all of the post 2004 alternatives rely heavily on copper as that primary biocide.

And while copper is an amazing additive in this that does effectively kill fungus, it detracts from insects, one of the downsides is it actually leaches more moisture. And in that leaching, it accelerates corrosion of untreated steel or aluminum accessories. So think about that for a second.

You have lumber that's performing at a lower clip than the past. And because of its moisture retention, it's allowing the accessories to corrode at a faster rate. So you have a faster failing lumber that's contributing to a faster failure of your hangers, your screws, your brackets.

And while, yes, there are stainless solutions for that, a lot of times those aren't used. And I think it's really important to think about not just the wood, but actually what the wood does to those other parts and pieces of the system in that performance decline. And then beyond treatments, what challenges does fast growing forestry practices create for the structural reliability? I think Jason alluded to this and he may want to chime in a bit too, but beyond those chemicals and the treatment, the wood itself used in today's pressure treated lumber differs from past decades.

Most of the treated lumber in the mid 20th century came from older, slower grown trees, often southern yellow pine in the United States. And they had very tight growth rings. So I talked about those tree rings.

Modern production actually increasingly relies on fast growth plantation timber, and it yields lumber with fewer growth rings per inch and a higher proportion of low density early wood, baby wood for short. This shift in forestry and sourcing, it actually impacts the mechanical strength of the lumber and how well it accepts that actual treatment. So it's wood that has a lower propensity to accept the treatment going into a treatment process with a lower effective treatment chemical.

And so you have three or four different degrees of negative performance factors adding up at once. Yeah, and I use the example, you know, when it comes to challenges and structural liability, I always use the example of talking to a client, you know, would you buy a, you know, reasonably priced vehicle today without a warranty on your frame of your vehicle? And that's what we're doing, right? We're buying, we're basically, you know, you're building an investment that is not, you know, it's not carrying a consistent warranty across all levels. So your deck warranties today are 35 to 50 years, but in a lot of cases you're getting maybe 10 on a higher end, you know, southern yellow pine, but in most cases, zero warranty.

So it's clear that while traditional wood has really served the industry well, current performance consistency is definitely a growing concern. Now, performance is something we hear emphasized again and again, especially for elevated outdoor structures. Why does it matter so much when specifying materials for decks and railings? Yeah, I think you heard a second ago, the investment dollars have increased and anytime things get more expensive, I think they get more serious.

The fact that we have a half a million dollar decking category speaks for the growth of that industry a bit. I don't think anyone sets out to design, build, or buy a deck for three years. And I don't think any brand in the industry builds a product for three years.

It's just not a very intuitive thought. I think folks don't expect forever, but we all do have elevated expectations for products. And I think we have equally lowered forgiveness for failures.

It's always important to think about weather, geographical trends, proximity to coastline and speccy materials. But when you think about pressure treated lumber, the industry has done a solid job in developing various grades and specs. You'll see grade 60 or marine grade lumber, things like that.

But as we just talked about, it's still a band-aided best. And unfortunately, you're getting performance that can be measured in months versus performance that can be measured in years. And going back to where I started here, I've yet to met a builder who talks about a two-year deck.

I've certainly never met a design professional who designs for 24 months. And I think that's what you're getting from pressure treated lumber today. Well, it's funny because some of the better builders that I know, they'll also warranty for 10 years.

So those are the folks that really are providing a great service to the client. But to roll the dice and work with a product where your substructure may be compromised in five or less, it's interesting because there's builders who will build with a 10-year and offer a 10-year warranty. And if you're using a compromised substructure, that's not going to give you 10 or more.

You're obviously doing a disservice to yourself. But when we're seeing some of these wood products as a framing system decay in five or less years, you could see other bigger and much bigger problems for your own integrity. Yeah, Jason, we're actually seeing a bit of the kind of opposite end of that trend starting to develop as well, where builders will limit their warranty if pressure treated lumber is used as a framing substrate.

And so if the builder has essentially lost faith in the material, they may build with it. However, they're not going to come back to fix a problem that inherently wasn't their problem to make. And I think that's something that's really going to shape the industry as well, is if more builders make that change, we're going to have to adjust at the spec writing level and the homeowner is going to have to adjust without any real transition period.

Right. You compromise your quality of products and now you're going to not get a consistent warranty carrying through. The last thing on this one is I think it's interesting, and Jason, you may have some data points from your business to share as well.

But one of the biggest challenges with deck boards is actually the frame. And so as deck board manufacturers sort through warranties and work through performance issues, many times that deck board failure, if it's delamination or grinding or any of the industry terms, it's actually happening because the frame is shifting, the frame is moving, and that is creating friction on the boards that are engineered to perform at a very long clip of time. But they can't just outperform a failing frame.

Yeah, absolutely. Most unsatisfied customers when it comes to decking callbacks usually are related to movement and we don't actually cover movement per se by our warranty on paper. We're always willing to help and we'll definitely go back and train contractors and help work with them to provide some support.

But most manufacturers or all manufacturers aren't going to warranty anything based on actual movement. But you're right, it's contributing factor based on extremely wet lumber that's going to go through the natural cycle of drying out. Now, statistics show that 75 percent of deck failures occur at the ledger board.

What should designers keep in mind to mitigate this risk? I want to start here by actually recognizing the North American Decking and Railing Association, NADRA. Mike and Margie Boudry, especially Lainey Slepin, some of the other folks in that organization, they've done a phenomenal job at communicating this issue, bringing to light the common fail points underneath their deck safety platform. They do an incredible amount of education and I'm not trying to evangelize their courses, but if you're in this industry, you really need to pay attention to what they're doing and spend some time with their content.

They talk about the ledger board being the lifeblood of the structure, and it truly is. That ledger board connects the structure to the home and it ensures that seamless transition from indoor to outdoor living that I talked about earlier. So as that ledger board rots and as I noted, potentially the fasteners connected to it corrode, the risk of failure accelerates.

Wood rot leads to thousands of injuries per year and in many cases, fatal injuries because of ledger board detachment. So today we see builders choosing to use alternative framing for ledger boards, even if the rest of the project uses traditional pressure treated lumber. More of the composite structural framing and even innovations such as the protective shields for ledger flashing.

Everyone is continuing to innovate here because we know that's where the failure happens. And just as a deck board cannot perform a failed frame, a deck detached from the structure due to a ledger board failure can be quite catastrophic. And at the end of the day, it's either use a wood replacement or do an extreme amount of work to hide, coat and protect the wood and still not get full performance.

So as you think about that, no one designs to fail and no one creates an outdoor living to not live. And so thinking about how to mitigate that single biggest challenge, start there. Leverage better materials at the ledger board and remove that obstacle and then start thinking about everything else.

So in addition to the ledger board, what are some other common points of failure in deck construction and how can design professionals address those proactively? We've touched on a few of these earlier, but it's really anywhere that the structure comes in contact with ground, moisture, water, the elements. If you are using pressure treated lumber and you're not aggressively protecting them at the first build, but also through maintenance and regularly inspecting that lumber, you're at an extreme risk for failure. Again, Nadra talks a lot about deck inspection, deck safety month, some of those programs, but it really needs to be deck safety week.

You need to think about this on a regular basis. Design professionals can really take advantage of a lot of the education that's already out there in the market and think about ways to expand their knowledge base on the material science and performance side, but also thinking about style and aesthetics. Dive into those alternative framing systems and materials.

You know, today, the market has really great solutions in steel, aluminum, and wood free composite. There are some advantages and disadvantages of each, but all provide a superior performance option to traditional PTO. And I think what's really interesting in this, too, is once you become familiar with the materials, you can do some very interesting design work.

I've seen projects where a wood free composite framing system is used together with a steel beam. That steel beam gave a homeowner a 19 feet span where they can look clear out of their bay window and see nothing but lake. So using those materials together within a single system to unlock truly next generation benefits has been really great to see.

And that doesn't happen without the design community and the engineering community collaborating, thinking outside the box and really putting the project and the homeowner experience first. Let's also talk about what's under the surface, the framing. How does the structure beneath a deck impact both safety and the overall user experience? Yeah, Jason, I'd love your point of view on this one from a deck brand point of view.

However, if you think about it, the framing supports outdoor living. Without the frame, without the structure, your ability to live outdoors is quite limited. When a frame fails, whether it's that ledger board detachment we talked about or joist rotting or anything else related to the substructure, you're going to have board shift.

You may have a structure that is uneven, not stable. You can have things like trips and falls or worse. Also, if you think about railing and the importance of railing attachment to the structure, many times people leverage railing to lean on, to kind of balance weight on.

And if you're leaning on a railing that's supported by a poor performing structure or a rotted structure, the increase for failure, the likelihood of failure, excuse me, is really increased. And so it's really important. It is a bit of a hidden category because literally the material is hidden in most cases.

But thinking about what's under your deck truly is as important as what your deck includes and those accessories around it. And that's really where we're hoping to wake up the industry a bit, but also challenge ourselves as an industry to be more collaborative and think about ways to use these new materials collectively to improve the way we build. Yeah, we have, Jeff and I have the luxury of being more of the sizzle where you have more of the stake right behind it.

And the reality of it is, you know, people choose things more so on color, but you're the meat and backbones behind how that deck stays together and protects their investment. So relying on just the railing and the decking, you know, our product's only as good as the frame below it. And it's equally or more important because of, you know, if your products structurally sound for a longer period, obviously our products stay on there longer and it just gives a better experience for everybody.

I would agree with that as well. And I just want to comment. Oftentimes we get in conversations with architects, designers and contractors about proper anchorage of railing posts.

And today we all of our testing that we provide and test reports that we provide, I mean, we have to do the subsurface of the deckboard and the blocking. And we actually specify that they use a, we refer to it as an underdeck bracket, thinking of an elongated washer where the lags will go through it and a nut and washer on the bottom side. And the reasoning behind that is we find that today's traditional blocking, be it pressure treated lumber or other, because of the inherent challenges with it, the quick growth and all the other aspects you spoke about before, Casey, it doesn't have the holding power.

And again, we have post, I'm not worried about my post failing. I'm more worried about the post anchorage failing. And that's critical.

And I know today with some of the newer materials, the lightweight steel and aluminum and some of the new non-wood composite materials that are out there, we're testing that now and we're not having those issues. Jeff, I'm glad you made that point, because in thinking about how the railings attach and at the end of the day, many homeowners don't see that once it's built. Right.

So you don't truly understand your frame rotting. You don't, you don't appreciate the age of the wood because you don't touch and feel it. Many times you don't know until a railing's loose and that's not the railing's fault.

Right. You all are engineered to perform in a very specific way. And that framing underneath can really create some significant problems, both for safety, but also as I think about brands and railing I trust.

And it's a really interesting challenge for kind of folks who depend on the frame for performance, yet really have no say in its longevity. Now, in what ways can material choices directly contribute to protecting occupant wellness in outdoor spaces? Yes. So I think when you think about material choice and protecting wellness, the first and foremost point is you can wrap lumber, you can coat lumber, you can treat lumber, but you really can't stop rot.

Wood will rot. And a rotted piece of wood will fail in time. And that failure can, and in many cases, results in injury.

Sometimes it's a simple injury, sometimes it's a catastrophic injury, but at the end of the day, wood is going to fail. And for, you know, from day one till today, basically, we've been innovating to slow that down, to delay the decay, if you will. But now we're looking at innovating to replace lumber, looking at materials that can provide longer lasting performance, and that can provide design professionals the ability to do things that maybe wood couldn't in the past as well.

And so thinking about bigger spans, longer performance, better aesthetics, framing that actually doesn't have to be hidden. With many of the wood precomposite, there's a range of colors, steel and aluminum, I've seen some colors. So it's giving designers different options as well.

However, it's that simple idea that you can't stop wood from rotting. And so you either have to tolerate and try to offset that speed of rot or you use a different material. And there's really great products with really great material science and great certification engineering around those new materials.

And it's a great time to jump in. Now, moving into solutions, that really brings us to one of the more exciting areas of innovation and of our discussion today, which is alternative materials and systems that address many of the performance issues that we've been discussing. But what are the alternative framing options that exist today and how do those compare? Yeah, it's a great question and it's absolutely an exciting time, but I also want to dial this in on reality a little bit.

So we did some market research a few years ago and we learned that there's about 16 billion dollars a year of pressure treated lumber installed in outdoor living applications in the United States and Canada. And alternative framing solutions represent one percent of that market. So our excitement, the industry's excitement is incredibly strong.

However, we're a very small part of that piece right now. And so we're excited both about the materials. We're also excited about the challenge and getting in front of people and educating them on a better way.

That's what I'm most excited about, actually, is seeing not just a material, not just a brand, not just a system, but multiple products coming into the market and legitimizing both the solution set and the problem. So at a macro level, we see three main materials and a few players within those materials. I'm expecting it to continue to grow and be a much more crowded marketplace.

Frankly, as someone that works in this space, I couldn't be more excited for the competition in the future and frankly, collaboration. We've talked so much about how alternative framing can impact the industry. And I truly hope more entrants come forward, more innovation comes forward and continue to create something better for builders, engineers and homeowners.

Those three materials are steel, aluminum and a wood-free composite. Steel and aluminum systems are very much what they are. They're metallic based.

They can be coated and painted and they give you some really slick, modern visuals. The wood-free composite is fiberglass reinforced, so it allows some significant advantages against corrosion and strength. That has more of a wood consistent visual, comes in a range of colors as well.

So that's kind of what the baseline is right now. As I said, I expect that to continue to grow. But steel, aluminum and then composite, specifically wood-free composite, is where we see much of the growth happening.

Casey, one of the things I would add to that is the challenge with some of those other items in the metallic form have definitely a disadvantage when it comes to working with standard fasteners. And that's something to be aware of as a specifier. One of the nice things about the wood-free composite material is that you can use typically standard fasteners with any manufacturer.

So there's no change to that. So if you're attaching on Jeff's side, the railing posts and or any of the decking, you don't have to think from a different standpoint of what you're specifying to make sure that those fasteners work in conjunction with the metallic framing. Yeah, I think it's a really good point, Jason.

And I think we're going to cover it later in this conversation. But creating a system that requires proprietary fasteners and brackets the way steel and aluminum does, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. It's just different.

And so that is something to really study and assess. If you're going to move into the metallic framing systems, you have to do your homework on building technique. You're going to require some different trade practices, some different tools, nothing that's going to be problematic, but you'll likely have to design differently and build a little differently as well.

Yeah, so speaking of fasteners, what should design professionals consider when selecting fasteners and connectors for alternative framing systems? Yeah, so I'll start with wood-free composite. That's certainly the substrate I know the best. You approach building with wood-free composite very consistent with how you would approach building with lumber.

The brackets, the fasteners, the hangers, things like that, will all work the same exact way they do with lumber. I always suggest folks to check manufacturer specs, to check span charts and things like that, but if you use a type of screw, you're going to be able to use that type of screw. Start with what's required by code, start with what's required by safe building practices, but anything you use with wood, you're going to be able to use on that wood-free composite.

It's engineered to act like wood, however, without the baggage, if you will. The metal systems do require their own fasteners or specialized fasteners. The other thing to think about with some of the metal systems are things like brackets and corner pieces.

It's certainly a system that has more parts and pieces. When I talk to builders who love using steel and aluminum, they've kind of figured out the parts and pieces that work for their crews. When I speak to designers that know that well, they had to do a little bit of work kind of relearning the standards.

However, it's not incredibly difficult. It's just different. I make that point about being different.

It connects back to this kind of industry that's been asleep. We've never really had to think about framing. And now you do.

And so it's not a curse to be able to think about framing. It's a benefit. You just have to do a little bit of homework and expand your knowledge base.

Warranties are another key piece of the puzzle. How can design professionals ensure that warranties remain consistent across all components of an outdoor system? I love this question and I love this topic. It connects to a few of the pieces that we spoke about earlier from decking and railing.

But first, with alternative framing, you're going to get a warranty for a material from a company as opposed to having to accept the perils of lumber. Now you have to dig into those warranties and understand what they are, what the insulation specs are, understanding when to use steel and think about proximity to seawater, those types of things. But you'll find the warranties of alternative framing products to be very positive for homeowners.

And in many cases, I think they benefit the decking and accessory brands as well. I've said it a few times that there's not a deck board on the planet that can outperform a failed frame. But I know that our decking partners and our peers in lighting and in railing are taking special care engineering products that improve the way people live, that make people happy, and then do so over a long period of time.

And those warranties that are kept by those manufacturers actually can warranty the actual defects their products may have, as opposed to, to Jason's point earlier, trying to work with folks and kind of skip around a warranty based on a failed frame. You're going to have coverage for the structural framing now that allows you more confidence in the decking and railing you put on top of it. Bigger than that, the alternative framing will outperform lumber regardless.

And in the event anything happens, you actually have a great warranty that I've seen residential lifetime warranty, commercial 50 year warranty. So it's actually tangible, real, meaty warranties that you can count on and believe in. One thing to point out on that, that's kind of frustrating in the industry is we have all these long lasting warranties for 35 to 50 years and everyone knows that you're not going to have a frame in wood that's going to last that long.

So, you know, it's almost misleading in its own way. And companies are kind of piggybacking, I think, off a little bit of the effect that they know wood's not going to last that long anyway. And when reviewing a warranty, are there specific questions that design professionals should ask the manufacturers to confirm that warranties are backed by both testing and field performance? Absolutely.

And I think the time right now in alternative framing, there's never been more data available. And so for the listeners of the podcast today and for folks in the industry, take the time to find, review and scrutinize the data. You're going to see very accessible data on spans, material science, chemistry, performance testing, installation instructions, DRJ, ICC, CCMC.

There's great testing bodies doing really great work agnostic to the manufacturers and the manufacturers are doing really great work as well. I've seen some awesome videos on YouTube from all the types, all the substrates of alternative framing, be it aluminum, metal, excuse me, aluminum, steel and wood free composite of builder education, engineer education. There's just never been more information available.

From a technical standpoint, the onus is on those brands, obviously, to bring that information to the audience. But also I want to challenge the audience to go do the work, kind of go find it, go scrutinize it and jump in. It's something we really haven't had to think about for a really long time and now think of it as a gift to think about it and to be able to design something that's going to perform the way your brain intended it and the way a homeowner expects it.

Absolutely. Now, codes are always evolving and design professionals want to ensure that their specifications align with current requirements. What standards or guidelines should they be aware of when specifying alternative framing systems? Yeah, I think first, dig into those certification and performance reports, whether they're DRJ or ICC, those are the governing bodies that establish performance and ultimately establish code approvals.

All of these substrates we spoke about today have code approval. They are published in various code documents and they're also endorsed by NADRA and other industry professionals and certifications. However, again, I think it's important to do the work to dig in and to understand those differences.

And the other interesting thing is think about learning about the materials and then how those materials can work together, because that's where we're seeing some really impactful design happen. I talked about it earlier, but wood-free composite and steel being used together. I've seen wood-free composite and aluminum used together.

There's no right answer here other than those materials all outperform PTL and to take advantage of the software, the data and all the emerging tools that are coming in real time. Now, let's talk about sustainability. What are the sustainability benefits of non-wood framing solutions? When I think about sustainability benefits of non-wood framing solutions, admittedly, I think it's pretty early in having a clear point of view at a deep level.

But I think about it in a few very simple ways. The first is you're creating something to live for an expended amount of time. When you build something that performs at a longer term, when you design something that doesn't have to be maintained, rebuilt, torn down, built again, you're ultimately designing with a more sustainable point of view.

All of these materials systems are inorganic. They're not farmed. They're not forested.

So there is a level of chemistry and production that goes into all of them. I believe that there are domestically produced solutions in all three of those materials that I've seen. So there's a ton of natural benefits there.

But the one area that I think we get caught up on sustainability is what do you do with it when you're done? And I think we get to change the conversation here because the frame doesn't get done, if you will. I know that was a very remedial way to think about it. But a frame that lasts forever, a frame that outperforms weather, moisture, climate is a more sustainable frame.

It doesn't require replacement. It doesn't require maintenance. And I think that's a really important thing to think about.

So the sustainability here is longer lasting, not needing a landfill because it's going to last. And then also human sustainability. You're going to reduce injuries.

All of the substrates have a clear point of view on being easier to build. Each of them have different types of system characteristics that are contractor friendly. So when you get to that level as well, maybe a safer build experience, a safer use experience, all wrapped in a structure that's going to live for an extended amount of time.

That sounds like a really interesting sustainability point of view to me. Basically, I would add to that, it's very similar to your concrete foundation. You know, you add an addition or you change something in your house.

No one thinks about having to re-dig their footers and re-pour the entire concrete foundation, right? Because it lasts a very long time. It needs to be viewed the same way. Now, from a cost perspective, how should design professionals evaluate the balance between upfront material costs and the long term lifecycle value of a structure? I think there's a lot of ways to think about cost.

And you will find that steel, aluminum and wood free composite all cost more than pressure treated lumber. So you're going to have an increased investment there. However, if you think about what you're paying for, Jason referenced earlier, you know, a deck that lasts three years versus a deck that lasts 30 years.

That dollar per year, dollar per time on deck. Those are all soft metrics. But if you think about kind of that from a design point of view, you're going to be designing something that doesn't require maintenance, that's going to have color performance over time.

If you go for one of the color options, no paint or stain needed. It's going to stand tall in the elements. And it also is going to allow some very interesting cost saves related to labor and materials.

I know an engineer or an architect may not be thinking about some things like this, but take that wood free composite system that comes in a range of colors or think about the black that comes with steel. Historically, when you build a deck or another living structure, you're going to put fascia on top of that frame to hide it. You don't have to do that anymore.

So we've seen cases where actually the cost of a wood free composite deck or the cost of a steel reinforced deck is lower than pressure treated lumber plus fascia, plus fascia screws and kind of all that extra stuff that has to happen. The other thing to think about here is time, not just design time, but actual build time and time to completion of the project. We've seen some pretty significant time advantages where contractors don't have to prepare their lumber, they don't have to sort their lumber, they don't have to plane their lumber.

With these new materials, they're engineered to be straight, they're engineered to be an exact length, and they're engineered to work right off the box. There's none of that taking, you know, the third of the lumber pile and saying, here's what I can use, here's a third I can't use, and here's a third I hope I don't have to use, but I may have to. Everything is going to work the way it's supposed to.

It's going to come out of the box to length, to spec, as I said. Many of these systems are coming out in true nominal sizes, so they fit exactly like your pressure treated lumber will, and they really give you a faster, more seamless install experience. So when you think about that, it's going to last longer.

It's going to require less accessory material, less building time, and it's going to allow you to get the real performance out of the decking and the railing, which people fall in love with. I think the cost more than makes sense. Definitely.

And do you have pointers then for how design professionals could communicate all of that value to their clients? Yeah, I think you start with how long are you looking to enjoy the structure and being very clear that with a pressure treated lumber frame, your performance time is likely less than three to five years and being very clear and matter of fact about that. And for some people, maybe that's OK. But I think most folks want to appreciate the time on their outdoor living structures, and they may not be thinking about a forever structure, but they're certainly thinking about the next five years, the next 10 years and not having to do aggressive replacement.

I think another thing to really dial into from this community is think about how tied in that audience is to railing and to decking. They know it inside and out. They appreciate all of the innovations on the side of it and knowing that with a better frame, they can actually unlock those benefits.

That's what gets me excited. For some reason, I love what I see in railing. Maybe it's just my own level of nerdiness, but I walk around thinking how amazing that part of the structure has become and also how it's limited, likely most of all, components by the frame.

And so you can actually get the performance and the dream, if you will, of this industry, what it offers you. You can guarantee that dream. And I think that's a really big shift for this audience and how they design and how they talk to homeowners and structure owners.

Now, to bring these ideas to life a little bit, let's look at how they perform in the real world. Can you share a case study where alternative framing improved the safety, durability or even design flexibility commercially and or residentially? Yeah, I think Jason will chime in here as well, but I want to talk about a pretty unique example. And it's an example that's being built kind of in real time right now.

There's down in the Daytona Beach, Florida area, it's a it's a home deck and dock being rebuilt by a company named Insight Marine. It's actually at the home of a woman named Corrie Bosco. You can look up Corrie on Instagram at East Coast Florida DIY.

I share that because many people have heard of Corrie's story and know her home. Her husband was deployed in the military for about two years. While he was deployed, she rebuilt their dream home.

And when he returned from deployment, the home was destroyed in a hurricane. And so they rebuilt their home and the recent hurricanes took their dock and deck off into the water. And so what Corrie is doing together with Insight Marine is they are taking a really kind of hurricane proof approach to rebuilding that structure.

They're using a wood free composite on the structural boards, also the pilings, and they're mixing a wood free composite decking, a nutritional deck board and also graded decking. So they're kind of doing some really interesting things that allow them to build in a way that is impervious to moisture, impervious to corrosion, but also has a higher level performance against the elements. And that's really interesting to see come to life.

We're also seeing a lot of builders who are starting to use alternative framing both as their base offering, but in parts and pieces. I've met a builder down in the Carolinas area that every build their team does, they start with a wood free composite ledger board. They say they build safely and it's non-negotiable.

That allows the homeowner actually to ask questions and say, well, tell me more about this wood free composite framing if it's so important for the ledger. Is it important for the rest of the deck? And so we're getting kind of so much feedback in real time from folks that it only takes a Google or two to see some of the builders that are really getting behind this. But I really like that project down in Florida because it's taking materials from multiple brands, multiple manufacturers, all of which are wood free to build something that's truly going to perform longer in the face of some pretty extreme weather.

Now, what lessons can be drawn from case studies in different climates such as coastal or extreme temperature zones that highlight composite durability and safety performance? Yeah, I think this is a really key part. And as I said, I really appreciate the performance of all of these alternative framing systems. With steel, the one knock on steel is that it is going to rust.

So you're limited to where you can use steel in a relationship to seawater and coastal zones. Aluminum is going to have a reduced risk for that. However, the wood free composite does provide you with, I'd say, the ultimate in weather and moisture resistance.

It's going to be rot proof, rust proof, impervious to moisture. And what's really interesting is it is not only ground rated, it's underground rated and it can be used underwater as well. So it's something that can really replace wood in any application and then outlive wood in those applications at the same time.

I've seen the wood free composite used across Florida. I've seen it used in four season climates up in Toronto and New England. We're seeing some extreme heat usages through Texas and areas, Oklahoma, kind of really kind of bustling that way.

I will say one of the challenges with the wood free composite, just in the spirit of transparency, is from a certification standpoint, it hasn't reached a Class A fire protection. And so if you're in a zone that requires Class A or WUI, the wood free composite currently would not be an option. But for other parts of the country and other parts of climate, it's a great, viable solution, along with aluminum and steel, depending on where you're at in relationship to the coast.

And how can design professionals then translate those lessons into best practices for future projects? You're designing to bring someone's dream true. You know, you're designing to bring a vision to life and being able to confidently tell someone that vision is going to live for an extended period of time, or maybe a better way to say it, that vision remains your vision. You don't have to worry about it.

If you're designing for outdoor living, you're able to offer someone a design, a plan and ultimately an outdoor living application that allows life to be lived outdoors. It doesn't create extra chores. It doesn't create extra maintenance.

It gives a homeowner confidence. It gives them a kind of next level intelligence around they made a choice, both with a designer that knew what they were doing with advanced materials and with those materials to live better. And that gets me really excited.

I mean, being able to not only make someone happy, but keep them happy and allow them to create moments year one, year two, year 15, year 30. That's a really cool thing. And I think that's where we can all benefit from playing in.

Absolutely. Now, to wrap up, I would love to hear from each of you. What is one final thought or words of wisdom you'd like to share with our audience? Casey, thank you.

This was very informative, first and foremost. And I've learned a lot about just the alternatives and framing and just what makes that all happen and how that's going to help us build better railing systems and the light for the outdoor living market. I've said this a number of times in the previous episodes that we've recorded, and it goes back to finding as a design professional, be it an architect, an engineer, landscape, landscape architect, interior design, find somebody, a trusted advisor.

Casey certainly made that point today. I feel very confident in the information he's given us today that he would be a trusted advisor, as I am with railings, Jay with decking and all the materials that he sells and represents. A trusted advisor, somebody you call, I'm going to give you the right answer.

Maybe tell you that their product's not the right product for your application. That's somebody you need to do, need to find and have in your wheelhouse. And that's my final thought.

And thank you again, Casey, I found this to be fascinating. I guess from my perspective, I'll say thank you to you, Jeff and Jason, for the opportunity. You both, you know, not only represent great brands and products in the industry, but represent great point of view and even better people.

So it's been awesome to not only get to know you all through the last year or so and through this experience, but knowing the work you do every day just makes me thankful and humbled to be a tiny part of your peer network. When I think about structural framing and moving forward, kind of to put this entire conversation in conclusion for me, I just want to remind everyone, this is a new thing, but it's incredibly proven, right? I always say there's no two by eight aisle. However, there is a good chunk of data and engineering, three to five years now of performance data, certification data, third party testing lab certification, and all that data is out there.

So take the time, immerse yourself in it. I know many of the brands that represent products in this category have structural engineers on staff. They're accessible, they're easy to find, to reach out to them, do the research and put the manufacturers to the challenge as well.

If you have a question, I think you'll find folks to be very passionate about making better building happen and doing their part to not only evangelize their product line, but to share the data and help create better builds. This is Jay, I'm extremely excited about this category, KC in general, mainly because it makes, you know, it's somewhat self-serving, but it's just better for the industry, right? It's better for everyone, to your point, that rising tide rises, it raises all boats and it helps everyone to grow and build a better product, right? Better framing systems make our products look better, they make them function better, gives them better integrity. We can be more helpful and be a better, you know, steward for an architect or a homeowner when we know that we're doing the right thing and giving them peace of mind.

It is an investment, you know, treat it like one. So I'm glad you could make it, appreciate your time here today. And hopefully we resonated with a whole bunch of folks out there.

And again, thanks for everyone's time. Fantastic. Now, today's conversation really highlighted how innovation in materials and design is giving us new ways to build outdoor spaces that are not only beautiful, but built to last.

So a big thank you to KC, Jeff and Jason for sharing your expertise with us today. Thanks, Megan, for making this happen today. And Brianne as well, greatly appreciate your guidance in this conversation.

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's been great.

Thanks, everyone. We appreciate you joining us on the Spec Shaman podcast as we continue exploring the details that make great architecture possible. Thank you for listening to the Spec Shaman podcast.

If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to our show and leave us a review. A huge thank you to our guests who made this show possible. Thanks all for this episode, folks.

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