The Intersection of Railing Performance and Design Innovation in Outdoor Living

This podcast introduces design professionals to the fundamentals of cable-infill railing systems, covering how materials, tensioning mechanics, fittings, and post selection contribute to structural safety and long-term performance. The session reviews key code requirements, common design and installation challenges, and best practices for documenting compliance under CSI Division 05. Listeners will also explore material sourcing, sustainability considerations, and maintenance strategies that support durability and minimize liability. The program provides practical guidance to help architects specify and coordinate cable-rail systems that perform reliably throughout the building’s lifecycle.

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Transcript

Hello, and welcome to the SpecShaman podcast, the show that explores the world of building product manufacturers, architects, and engineers, sustainable design, and technology and trends. We engage in thought-provoking discussions with renowned experts, industry pioneers, and visionaries who are making a significant impact in the construction industry. Join us as we explore groundbreaking ideas, revolutionary concepts, and the latest advancements shaping the built environment.

I hope you enjoy this week's episode. Let's get started. Hello, and welcome to the Blueprint Outdoor Living podcast.

I'm your host, Megan Vipund. In this episode, we continue to explore the systems, materials, and design decisions shaping today's built environment, and dive into a topic that blends engineering precision with architectural elegance, cable infill railing systems. Joining me today are three experts who bring unique perspectives on performance, safety, and long-term value in outdoor structures.

Jeff Cerovi, Architectural Sales Manager for KeyLink, and Jason Fora, VP of Marketing Development for Wolf Home Products. We also have special guest, Steve Aiken, National Sales Manager for Ultratech Cable Railing. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us today.

Steve, could you talk about your history in the industry and how you came to be in the role you are today? So I've been in the industry for about four or five years now. I was hired by a building products company whose main focus has been acquiring different types of cable railing companies within the past four or five years. I originally started overseeing our residential customer service team.

I basically just jumped in, started building calls, learning about the industry, learning about the customers and the parts. Eventually, a couple of years later, I was asked to oversee the commercial sales team. And within six months, you know, we had a departure for our national sales manager and I was asked to fill that role.

And that's been really eye-opening, you know, for the last year and a half being able to get out in front of customers and really dive into this really great industry. Fantastic. Well, we're excited to really dig into this.

Now let's set the stage with a technical foundation. It's important to understand what a cable system actually is and how it behaves. So for those who might be unfamiliar, what exactly defines a cable infill railing system? A cable railing infill system is just simply put the fittings and the cable that fit between the frame, the frame being the top rail and the post.

So when we talk about cable railing, we talk about runs. That's going to be the horizontal piece of cable that begins and ends between the post. Your typical cable railing system for a 36-inch rail, which is pretty much the standard throughout the United States, consists of 10 runs.

In California, it would be 12 because they have the 42-inch frame. So that's really all it is. It's just simply put is the parts that make up the filling of the frame.

What are the primary components of a cable rail system and how do they work together? Your typical cable rail system has two components. It's going to be your fittings and it's going to be your cable wire. The two types of fittings that you're going to see are going to be your tension and your non-tension fitting.

It's really important to understand that you always have to have at least one tension fitting and one anchor point, though in some systems you can use two tension fittings if you're worried about really high traffic. So the more that you can tension it, the stronger your system is going to be. How is cable strength determined? What factors affect the tension, spacing, and long-term stability? So your cable strength is going to be mainly determined by the type of steel used and the diameter.

The max tensile strength can be determined by pull testing and meeting standards such as the ASTM 92. You know, the tensile strength can also be affected by how you're spacing your posts. Generally, you don't want to have a post that's more than 48 inches apart because that's going to cause the cable to sag if anyone pulls or steps on it.

The minimum tension strength of cable should be around 225 pounds. You know, as we'll dive into later, that's going to adhere to most building codes that apply to applying the 4-inch sphere rule, which you're taking a 4-inch sphere and with a reasonable amount of pressure trying to fit it in to those cables. Max runs are going to be, based on the manufacturer's recommendation, between 70 and 150 feet.

That's going to also play a big part in the tension ability of your cable. What's the difference between swage and swageless fittings and how does each influence installation and maintenance? This is a really great question. So the main difference between the swage and the swageless fittings are how they are attached to the cable.

So your swaged fittings are going to be cold formed using 10,000 pounds of pressure through a special machine called a swager. They come in a few different sizes. So this is what's going to basically machine crimp a fitting onto a cable.

Your swageless fittings are going to be the ones that are easily installed in the field without heavy machinery. They basically work using wedges inside the fitting and you push the cable in and whenever you draw it back out, it locks the cable into the fitting. These are really similar to if you've ever seen a sharp bite fitting in plumbing.

There's one way in and when you try to pull it back out, it locks it in place. So they're a little bit easier to use in the field. Can you explain flexible versus non-flexible cable construction and where each is best applied? So flexible and non-flexible cable is going to be simply that.

How flexible is it? The standard cable to be used in structural applications is going to be your 1 by 19. That means you have one column of 19 individual strands. This is going to be what you're going to see pretty much in any project, whether it be residential, commercial, it's just going to be it's going to be the greatest for heavy traffic. 

You know, it's not going to it's not it's going to be stiff whenever you pull on it. It's going to feel feel like it's solid when you look at. So that was one by 19.

When you look at something flex and something called flexible cable, you look at like a seven by 19. You've got seven columns of 19 strands. This isn't used in structural applications very often just because it is very pliable.

Mostly we see this application in rigging shops or maybe on a ship where you'd be using a hoist or a pulley. We have seen it in some designs just because it does offer a lot more flexibility going around post. But as far as any sort of pedestrian traffic, it's generally not recommended.

How do variations in cable diameter impact not only visual appearance, but also the load capacity? The general rule is the thicker the diameter, the greater the load capacity. So we've talked about, you know, residential versus commercial jobs. Most residential, you're going to see the one eighth inch diameter, which has about a seventeen hundred pound breaking point.

When you go a step up to three sixteenth, this is where the commercial jobs start. Being that it has the thicker cable, it's definitely going to be a lot stronger and it starts at about twenty four hundred pounds and goes from there. There's all sorts of different different cable that you can use in all of it.

You know, it starts at the one eighth inch diameter all the way up to five eighth and beyond. What role does the choice of post material play in the system's overall performance? So we primarily see aluminum and steel. They both perform really well.

I would say aluminum is typically a lighter weight, more economic over stainless steel. Stainless steel is able to provide the heavier load and traffic capacities. Things can be done can be done and aluminum, but the integrity and the regular steel.

I'm sorry, not aluminum. Things can be done in regular steel, not stainless. But integrity can be compromised when you start to use that because you don't get the corrosion protection.

It's also important to remember that the stainless steel posts are not stain free, so you're never going to be completely free of maintenance on that. When designing for safety and compliance, how do engineers calculate the required tensile strength and allowable deflection? So the standard for tensile strength is going to be two hundred and twenty five pounds and no more than three and one eighths apart so it can pass this four inch sphere rule. It's going to be three and one eighth because usually the one eighth is the diameter of the residential cable.

This would be increased to three and three sixteenth if they were using a three sixteenth cable for a commercial project. If you use this combination, you will pass most of the four inch sphere rules from any local building inspector for the horizontal cable. It's also important to remember that the angle on the stair increases to six inches, you know, just to avoid any small pet or child possibly getting their head caught.

How does thermal expansion or environmental exposure influence system performance over time? In extreme environments, you can strain your frame, whether it be extreme heat or cold. I always advise people the best the best way to protect against this is to choose fittings that allow for easy adjustments and also make sure that you're getting the right material specced for your environment, you know, whether it be wood, aluminum or steel. You know, obviously, if you're in San Diego with a little bit more temperature control, it's going to be a lot different than being up in the Northeast where you have, you know, maybe, you know, 95 degree weather in the summer and then all the way down below freezing in the winter. 

So, you know, architects can work with the engineers to spec the right material. I think that's really important, you know, leaning on the manufacturer, getting a trusted spec from an engineer and then also, you know, using the manufacturer's, you know, personnel to recommend, you know, easily adjustable fittings for each project. So what are some early design considerations that can help prevent installation errors or field adjustments later in the process? I believe precision measurements and drawings are key.

You know, whenever it's possible, always consult a subject matter expert. And if you have any, if you have any, you know, recommendations or reach out to your manufacturer for recommendations for an experienced installer, you know, doing both these things, I think is really going to save you a lot of headache in the long run. You know, lean on the manufacturer and their experience.

All right. Now that we've got the foundation laid, let's zoom out a little bit. Talk about where cable railing fits into today's architectural and construction landscape. 

How have cable infill railing systems evolved within architecture and construction industries over the past decade? I believe what we've seen is the industry is just going more minimalistic. You know, it's looking to blend the atmosphere with the actual structure or building to make people feel more connected. I've seen this in several cases from anywhere from an office building to like Allegiant Sports Stadium.

Really getting people involved in their environment, I think, is where cable railing shines. You know, it solves a lot of problems when people are talking about, you know, wanting unobstructed views. They're talking about wanting an industrial look without compromising the environment, using anything from wood and other metals to enhance it.

I think that's what we're really seeing. Of course, we've also seen just about every type of project that you could imagine. So it's something that's really cool to get creative with.

What performance and aesthetic factors make cable railing a popular choice for modern design professionals? Very good question. And going back to the last question, you know, it does a great job of blending in the natural surroundings, you know, in both inside application and outdoors. Offering that minimal obstructed view makes it fit very well into, you know, a nature setting. 

We have down in Houston, Texas, there was a project done at a bird watching canopy that was multiple levels. And, you know, for 50, 60 feet away, you can't even tell that there's cable railing in place. You know, all you see is the birds.

So, you know, when I also see like reference sports stadiums, the Texas Ragers Stadium down in Arlington, Texas, is a great view of that. You know, you walk in and really all you see is the frames until you walk right up to the cable railing itself and notice that, oh, wow, this is actually these are these are metal fittings. But, you know, I saw a game there in April and it was just it was amazing how everything blended in and it just made you feel like you were a part of the game.

Can you explain the ladder effect concern and how current codes and engineering practices address it? Yes. So I hear a lot of a lot of things surrounding the ladder effect, and it's basically the climbability of a railing. I think a lot of concern is that, you know, small children, pets might be able to climb cable railing. 

Therefore, people deem it as unsafe. I think it's a very important it's very important to note that that this is not part of the International Building Code as of right now. It was taken out in 2006.

You know, it's I've heard there's some local there's some local inspectors that still just just hammer at home, but it is technically not a part of the IBC currently. So there's basically what they say is every type of railing is going to be climbable if you want to climb it enough. Right.

So I think that's really important to kind of understand the inspectors, maybe their tendency, you know. So when that comes up, be being prepared to talk about it, you know, and see what your options are there. Sorry, Megan, there are this is Jay.

There are very few areas around the country that actually don't allow it. So by I'd say by majority, by a vast majority, it is accepted and it is his view. Jeff has something to say, too.

Thank you for that, Jay and Steve, I just want again, I oftentimes when speaking with design professionals, we talk about cable, whether it's in this case, most most of Steve's product is horizontally strong, but we also offer vertical cable as a key link option. But I oftentimes ask the design professional what the intended audience or use of this railing system would be. And to, you know, to realize that they're, you know, having raised children, we all have one point.

Kids are going to climb the encouragement not to climb. And but it's not a code, a code issue. In fact, there was a study done not too long ago that furniture was more likely to be climbed upon next to a railing and then climbed over as opposed to or climbed upon to climb over as opposed to the cable itself.

The cable can be while it's on a hot day, you're not going to climb it and so on and so forth. It's just, again, knowing your audience, knowing the application that you provide that design assistance to the ultimate your ultimate client and the use factor. Thanks.

So what are the key differences between using cable infill in residential versus non residential projects? Your main key difference is going to be cable diameter. Now, of course, there's going to be a couple of other factors, but that's where we want to start. Residential products and projects are going to be pretty much 90 percent one eighth inch diameter cable.

This is because they don't expect the high traffic that, say, a bridge or a walkway or even maybe a strip mall front would expect. And it also when you're talking about, you know, houses and mountains or overlooking a lake, that one inch diameter cable is really going to minimize any obstruction. You know, you combine that with some, you know, some thinner posts and you're really going to have a really beautiful view over a patio or something like that.

Another one is going to be that you're in residential projects. You're not going to be held to the same standards as some of these commercial projects such as, you know, state codes, maybe domestically sourced material, which we're going to get into a little bit later, you know, where it has to be melted here in the United States. You're just not going to see those those codes being enforced in a residential project. 

You will have some codes, but generally you're going to have a little bit more leeway. And, you know, it's going to be based on what the consumer wants to do, wants to achieve. What kind of aesthetic do they want to do? They want to go completely minimalistic.

Do they want to go a little bit more industrial? Whereas in your commercial products, you're just really focused on safety and longevity. What are some misconceptions or design hesitations that you often hear from design professionals about specifying cable systems? I think we've seen that a big misconception of cable is that it's difficult to work with or requires a ton of maintenance, which is just simply not true. You know, there's a small learning curve that I spoke with several installers that after a job or two, you know, they state it's actually very user friendly.

I mean, it's come a long way within the past 10, 15 years, especially with their swedgeless options that any DIYer can use on the weekend and have cable railing within a matter of hours. So with anything, especially the environment, you're going to have a little bit of maintenance. And I always point to, you know, when you own a yacht and you dock it, you know, in a slip on the coast, you're going to have to maintain those metal parts because that salt and wind is going to be enough to after a few years with no maintenance, it's going to corrode any type of any type of material.

So, you know, I just think that getting people educated on the fact that with just a little bit of maintenance, you've got a product that can last a lifetime, you know, combined with most manufacturers have a pretty great have a pretty great warranty, 10, 20 years most of the time. So, you know, as long as you're following the maintenance requirements. So, yeah, I think I think the biggest misconception is at first glance, it looks daunting. 

But again, you know, lean on your manufacturer. They can be a trusted advisor. They can help you every step of the way, you know, to make you feel really comfortable throughout the whole process beginning to end.

Yes, absolutely. Now, let's move from industry perception into the rules that govern safe, compliant installation. This is where good design becomes enforceable design codes, testing standards, documentation.

So which sections of the IBC and IRC apply most directly to cable infill railing safety? That's a really good question. And we touched on this just a little bit earlier. I think pretty much the one that you're going to see over and over again is going to be that four inch and six inch sphere rule, basically stating within a reasonable amount of force, you cannot take a four inch sphere and pass it through horizontal runs of cable or a six inch sphere and pass it through the bottom of the stair and the first run of the cable.

This is this is just the most common as a safety factor, you know, going back to preventing small pets or children getting their head caught or a limb caught, you know, maybe while they were trying to climb it or something like that. Having having this in place is going to prevent that. And that's going to be that's going to be the one that you see.

And, you know, oddly enough, I still believe to this day there is not an actual measurement for the pound of pressure that you need to use. Engineers that I've been speaking with all through the industry generally start at 50 pounds and don't like to go any less than that, you know, but try it. Try telling a building inspector to use 50 pounds of force, you know, unless he's got some equipment, he's probably not going to be able to get it exactly on.

So there is going to be a little bit of a gray area there. Some some inspectors are going to push a little bit harder than other others. So I would just say err on the side of caution.

You know, if you want to do 225, if your posts allow it, maybe start at 250 and work from there just to make sure you've got your bases covered. Again, you mentioned about the standard being 50 pounds, and that is the design load. The test load for all of these products would be, in fact, a subject to a two and a half times safety factor.

So I know, for example, a key link when we do our testing while the infill the infill design load test is at 50 is 50 pounds and that's over a one square foot area. That is the basis that is using the safety factor of two and a half times. We're pulling out one hundred and twenty five pounds and then we pull the ultimate failure. 

And that's part of the part of the ASTM E9 935 and 985 codes which cycle back to the ICC ICC 273 acceptance criteria that's been been pretty much code for for as long as I've been involved in the industry. Are there specific ASTM standards governing cable and fitting testing such as pullout or tension performance? Yes, there are. There are several.

One that I see that's very common that actually Jeff didn't mention was the ASTM A 492 standards, which is, you know, based upon strength and the breaking point that's for the cable and the fittings. It is a little bit different when you start to incorporate your own post material because then you're going to have to have some other standards based on how the cable is going to pull out of the post and how that goes to breaking point. Is it going to break the cable first or the post? So, so, yeah, it's just it's all about the substrate as well.

You know, I mean, it can all it can all differentiate. You've got to take all these factors in because, you know, one product is only as good as another product that it's connected to. So it's important to look at the whole project.

Are there any states or jurisdictions that have stricter interpretations of these codes? There are. So as we touched on a little bit earlier, 36 inches and 10 horizontal cable run is pretty much your standard throughout the country. If you're doing anything in California or over two floors, from what I've seen, it's got to be 42 inches.

So in California, everything's 42 inches. So every other state you have, you have that leeway to kind of design it how you want. But even and that applies to resident, residential and commercial.

You know, you're not going to you're not going to get out of it just because it's your own personal backyard in California. So really important to just kind of do a little bit of research. You know, it's going to help it's going to help from beginning to end and bidding, installing that that you understand these local and regional codes.

But many of the manufactured railing systems today may have upwards of 11 to 13 runs of cable based on the design of the top rail and whether or not it may include a bottom rail. So I think it's 10 to 12. It also could be up to upwards of 11 to 13 strands of cable based on that.

And also, again, I'm speaking specifically of eighth inch cable. Now, as you mentioned earlier in the in the conversation, you mentioned that, you know, depending on the thickness of the of the of the specific cable, we might have a different run. Absolutely.

Great point, Jeff. When writing a specification under CSI Division 5 metals, what are the essential details a design professional should include? Steve, I'll take this one. And thanks again for allowing me to join you today.

Again, we oftentimes over the last five or six podcasts, we've spoken about the trust of divisors. Steve mentioned that before subject matter experts, manufacturers, reps and Steve just mentioned just moments ago about installers and those who have field field experience thinking about some of the heavier applications of of of cable and thinking of pedestrian walkways. And I know Steve and I just spoke to somebody about a project recently.

These guys are the installers and they understand the codes that are required. But as far as specifications, that's necessary. I would start with Division 5 metals.

Most likely all of that's going to fall under 0570 or 73. And that's where we're going to start to find that information. But drilling down, there are manufacturers out there that make specific cable component parts, as we've been speaking about.

And I would suggest that you find one, research it. If you have questions, you reach out to the contact information, develop a trusted advisor in that particular role and have them provide you guidance and go from there. What are the best practices for documenting compliance and inspection of field installations to minimize liability? I think that having a great spec and a very detailed spec in the beginning is going to save you a lot of headache in the end.

You know, when you when you know what is expected, you can communicate directly with the manufacturer. Once again, going back to the subject matter experts, you know, we can provide drawings. You know, there's there's several different ways that you can understand from the beginning what is expected before you even get into what kind of fitting or, you know, what kind of cable you're looking for.

And also knowing your regional building inspectors, you know, if there's any way that you can, you know, understand tendencies, certain codes that are going to vary state to state. They're all going to be just a little bit different. You know, as we talked about earlier, too, you know, I've seen projects done in California where the order comes through and it's and it's for a 36 inch railing.

And, you know, immediately you're like that this ain't going to work, you know, even if the customer wanted it, it's not going to pass the code. So, you know, just understanding and knowing that you can ask questions in the beginning and you don't have to know everything, you know, getting getting those subject matter experts involved and letting letting them do the heavy lifting goes a long way. You know, it really does.

And just knowing the local code enforcements, I think, is huge. So you mentioned height specifically in California being a possible liability point. Are there any other areas where disputes or liability issues tend to arise? I would say if the wrong product was specced in the beginning, it could definitely be an issue, especially if it's not designed for something that's, you know, on your second floor or above, or if it's calling for a certain diameter of cable and you don't adhere to it. 

I mean, you could really run into some legal problems if somebody gets hurt. Yet again, I think really, really going back to that initial spec and making sure you've got a respected engineering involved, you know, sometimes I've seen situations where you kind of got to talk somebody out of something just because, you know, it's not going to pass code and it's not going to be safe. And you just have to you just have to level with them and say, hey, you know, we really got to follow these rules.

How do design professionals verify that systems meet structural and accessibility requirements during the design and submittal process? Megan, I'd like to respond to that. And again, we've spoken a couple of times about the International Code Council criteria falls under the acceptance criteria 273, which references ASTM codes 935 and 985, which provide the structural testing for not just cable infills, but all infills. And they all fall under the same guidance and code requirements.

There may be and I know some of these projects are involving pedestrian walkways, maybe adjacent to a highway or traveled, you know, automobile traveled spaces. There might be some state requirements by state that require certain cable thicknesses or certain spans and other unique application or enforcement, I should say. So please reference the local state and state and local authorities for that.

But if we're just looking at ICC, the International Code Council, they have a they speak in great volumes about the particular cable and all for that matter, all infills and again, speaking specifically about cable today. Let's shift from technical documentation to something more holistic, where these materials come from and how they support sustainability goals. So what does the term domestic melt mean? And why is it relevant under Buy America Build America initiatives? This is a really good question, and I get asked this a lot because there's there's a couple of different interpretations of this.

Basically, domestic melt means that the raw material bar stock has to be melted and formed into a final product on domestic soil. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be mined out of a U.S. mine. That that is something that it could be from Spain.

It could be from overseas somewhere. As long as all of the production is happening here, you know, and I think that for Buy America Build America, it's stainless steel. I think it's at about 98 percent of the assembly process.

So there's pretty much no room for error when you're talking about a two inch part. So that's that's exactly what domestic melt means. And I think what we see with the Buy America Build America Act is we're looking for more domestic production, you know, less import from parts from overseas and basically creating jobs here and keeping jobs going right here in the United States.

So, you know, when you find a manufacturer that adheres to all of that criteria, I think it's really important because there's not very many out there that are left in the cable railing industry. Does domestic melt affect lead times or pricing? It does, because most of the parts are not considered stock. They're not, you know, a manufacturer may have some of the popular ones on the shelf, but generally that product, that project that's requiring domestic melt is going to be likely on the larger side.

So I've seen cases to where a manufacturer can make, you know, a very large domestic order within a couple of weeks because essentially it's the exact same part. They're just using a different bar stock. So if they can make the part in two days, you know, you would just add a couple of days to make it out of the same bar stock.

So I think that maybe we would get into a little bit longer lead time when you're talking about ordering a lot of this domestic material. But one of the great things right now about domestic material is it used to be more expensive, but now it's less expensive. So now you've got manufacturers with a lot of this stock on hand because they were buying it anyway, and it's going to meet that domestic code as well.

So you're going to see a lot shorter lead times, you know, in the near future. How does domestic sourcing impact quality assurance, project eligibility and sustainability goals? Well, I think number one, it's not going to be subject to tariffs, you know, being that it's all domestically sourced material. My experience with material that comes from a domestic source is the customer service is much more reliable.

I can get the documentation I need, you know, for each individual order. If I'm looking for something for a customer, every domestic milk order has to be traced by something called a heat number. And that's basically when they're melting it down in the pot and they're pouring it into a form, each batch gets a specific number.

I have myself personally, I have called up, you know, my steel manufacturer and within a couple of minutes, I have a certification that says all beginning to end, this was all done in America. And, you know, sometimes we don't get those requests for documentation until the customer really needs it. Then all of a sudden, you know, we needed it yesterday.

So I've just felt that that domestically sourced material has much better customer service and really goes a long way in helping me serve my customers, you know, and them in turn serve the project needs. How recyclable are these materials and what are some environmental benefits of using steel or bronze cable systems? So both materials are very recyclable and sustainable. Stainless steel, in most cases, is going to be up to 60 to 90 percent recyclable.

Bronze cable, I have seen situations where it's 100 percent recyclable and that's both pre-consumer and post-consumer for the bronze. So both materials are very environmentally friendly and are able to be reused again and again, which makes them just a really sustainable material. Is recycling infrastructure widely available for those materials? It is available.

And in most cases, you've got people looking for it. They will be calling you if they know that you're going to have scrap because it can be very lucrative for them. I mean, I've seen situations where, you know, a manufacturer might be recycling hundreds of pounds of shavings and, you know, they've got people calling on them every week looking for business because it's very, you know, if you've got a hundred customers like that, you're making money off that recycled material, especially with the bronze where you don't have to, it's minimal processing.

So what distinguishes stainless steel cable from a phosphor bronze cable in terms of strength, appearance and corrosion resistance? So the bronze is a relatively newer, newer material to make cable out of. It offers a really unique aesthetic appearance to stainless. You know, you're going to sacrifice a little bit of strength.

I believe that the breaking strength of bronze is about 1250 pounds, which is still quite a bit. But you're definitely, you're going to get a much different aesthetic with that shiny, shiny bronze. It's almost like a freshly, you know, minted penny.

You know, when the sun hits it, it just it just looks so much different than your standard stainless steel. But like I said, you know, you're going to lose a little bit of your strength. The 1250 is still stout.

Corrosion resistance is going to be about the same. You know, you're still going to have to have a little bit of maintenance, as with any type of metal, depending on, you know, the environment, whether you're putting it inside or outside, you know, is it subject to harsh winds and things like that. Does bronze or phosphor cable develop a natural patina and how can maintenance extend its lifespan? It does. 

Yes. So it will develop a natural patina. And like I said earlier, using a two part conditioner designed for most metals with any sort of regularity is going to really slow that process down.

You know, there's going to be certain times where I have seen bronze cable used in an outdoor application and it's just kind of left to be and it did develop a patina, but it actually looked pretty good. And the projects I've seen, you know, you didn't really look at it as a negative. So.

Yeah, it can, you're just going to have to maintain it a little bit, you know, but just like stainless, it's not going to be stain free and that's just it's going to be a part of a maintenance program. And in your experience, do clients typically embrace that natural patina or are they looking to slow it down? What I have seen when dealing with the bronze and outdoor projects, they do embrace it, especially in the 316 when you're talking about a commercial project. If you've ever noticed when you're driving down the highway and you may see some really thick cable railing, it's got that dullish gray tint.

That is actually means it's domestic melt because most domestic melt material is not shiny. But yeah, I think that with the bronze, when you use it on the inside, they really want to get away from the patina because they want to blend it in with the surroundings. They want that cable to shine.

So I think I think that's really where they're going to they're going to shy away from the natural patina. So we'll close out the technical side of things by talking about long term performance because cable systems aren't just a set it and forget it. And you briefly mentioned this, but stainless steel is stainless, not stain free.

What are the most common causes of corrosion or discoloration? What we're going to see when it involves a discoloration and corrosion in stainless steel is going to be your saltwater environments. You know, of course, pollutants can also be a major cause. But when I see when I see something called T-staining, which is brown stains, you know, usually where the stainless steel, you know, meets a different type of material on the post, it's going to be in a saltwater environment.

Nine times out of 10, this is not compromise the steel at all. And it does not affect performance, but it affects aesthetic, which, as we all know, you know, can can be a really big deal. So, you know, even though they're unsightly, they usually will not compromise the safety of the cable. 

And it's just, you know, going back to the boat that's, you know, stored on the slip of a coast, wind and salt are going to deteriorate just about any type of material much quicker. So a little bit a little bit of maintenance is going to be required. How can a structured maintenance plan help meet warranty requirements and extend product lifecycle? What I have found most effective, you know, we can you can use just about anything you want. 

I've seen people use soap and water and it be very effective using using a two part cleaner that's widely available, you know, just about anywhere online is really going to extend the life of your cable. And it's easy to apply and it's very cost effective. What should design professionals know about specifying warranties and maintenance expectations in their project documents? Many manufacturers that are providing assembled railing sections today will prescribe cleaning protocols for their railing systems for both coastal and non coastal applications. 

I could see coastally recommend it maybe every three to every three months at minimum. Inland, as it would be oftentimes, I will recommend in the spring and again in the fall, that would be would be recommended for for maintenance and for just upkeep, general upkeep and for the railing. Again, as you mentioned before, stainless is not stain free.

It will stain and depending on the client's expectations, they'll need to treat it accordingly. Thanks. How can design professionals apply life cycle thinking to ensure long term safety and performance of cable and fill systems? I think the big thing here really is just setting expectations, looking at end users from really any angle and project owners.

Obviously, it varies depending on if it's a stadium or just a residential owner, but setting those expectations by the installer and by the manufacturer and just understanding that we're articulating those expectations properly. Like Jeff and both Steve said, from a maintenance standpoint, from a warranty standpoint, and surely from a life cycle thinking, there have been customers in the past that had called us that we needed to maintain their product because somebody said it was maintenance free and then they needed someone needed to clean it. So obviously, expectations in that scenario weren't set properly, but I'd say just setting those expectations and making sure that they're followed through.

And as we wrap up today, let's talk about what makes these projects successful. How does collaboration and coordination between architects, engineers and fabricators affect the success of these projects? Well, usually, like most projects, it's going to take a village to ensure success. It starts with the architects laying the plans, communication with the manufacturer, making sure these parts and cable are to the correct spec, utilizing a trusted fabricator and installer to make sure they're following the project closely, installing it correctly, precise measurements, troubleshooting and support.

That's another thing that comes from the manufacturer and it comes from being a trusted source, because at the end of the day, we've all seen on any project, you're going to have unexpected scope come in. You're going to have unexpected things happen and you're really going to need someone who's been down that road before. And I think that's what's really important when we talk about all these other things of having all your ducks in a row, but really having that support, having that support to work in tandem, because a lot of the times the manufacturer is talking to everybody.

They're talking to the architect. They're talking to the fabricator, the installer. They're talking with code enforcement people.

So they're getting all of this input. So I think developing a really good relationship from the beginning with the manufacturer is really key. Yeah, I would definitely say, Steve, this category as far as custom cable railing goes, especially on commercial projects, being that my career, a lot of it has been in primarily residential and more of learning this process and learning what's really important.

I'd say from a consultant standpoint, there's so many different substrates that are not, you're going into steel. You're going into different types of wood. You're going into concrete.

Concrete has different PSI. So definitely these scenarios, I'd say, are not of the norm. And so that trusted advisor, as far as any category goes that I see, it's probably most relevant here because of just the scenarios and the customization and really the jobs, the type of jobs that they go into.

If you're talking a stadium or a bridge or pedestrian walkway across a bridge, this is not just a standard post system that's been tested. It's going to end up being some type of custom design, and that is going to require support from the manufacturer. More so than probably any other category.

Could you share lessons learned from large-scale installations where cable infill was used? I can, absolutely. There was one project a few years ago that I was a part of, kind of the cleanup on. It was a very large-scale Airbnb in North Carolina.

And the project went really well initially, and we thought everything was fine. Basically, the problem was the customer had requested a fitting that fits into wood, but they only requested it for the regular size. They didn't take into consideration that the sleeves were made of wood on the column of this very large house, but they had vinyl sleeves that went over it.

So there's a part that is made specifically for post sleeves called an XL part, and it gives you a little bit more holding power in case of a storm or extreme climates. Long story short, all of this cable railing was installed, and it all worked great until the first big storm, and the customer walked out and half of their railing was missing because the winds had literally pulled the cable and the fittings out of the post. You know, going back to the initial quote that was provided, the manufacturer was not told that there was these really thick post sleeves on these columns and that the XL part would be needed.

Eventually, everything was good. You know, there was an installer that came in and was able to correct everything, but had the manufacturer known from the beginning that there was post sleeves, they could have made a really quick recommendation and just said, hey, don't go with the regular size part. You go with the XL lag, and as far as I can tell, there hasn't been any issues in a few years.

So, well, I think of that project all the time, you know, and it definitely, you know, it definitely taught me the difference between the parts designed for post sleeves and the parts that weren't. And what is one final thought or words of wisdom you'd like to share with our audience today? You know, as I got into this industry four or five years ago, I didn't realize how much cable is everywhere, you know, when you start looking around and that's partly because it does blend in with the environment, you know, when it needs to, it can stand out when it needs to. It's just, it's so versatile and I see it in parking garages, you know, sports venues, retail, shopping strips.

I actually took my daughter a few months ago to an arcade where they had used it beautifully on a stair leading up to their birthday area and the way that they put it in, you just, you didn't even know it was there. So, I mean, I would just advise to start looking around, start looking around and seeing how versatile this material can be. I mean, you can literally make it a part of any aesthetic that you want and I just think that for a long time, people thought about stainless steel and they thought cold and they thought rigid.

But we're seeing now that stainless can actually, you know, feed into the warmth of an area, you know, it can make you feel a part of the structure and it could really give it a lot of character that I think maybe 20, 30 years ago, you know, somebody would have dismissed it just thinking, oh, you know, that's just some stainless steel. But the way that it's been used in so many projects today, I mean, there's new ones coming up all the time. So, I would just, you know, say, look around, see how versatile it is.

And the second part is, it's just I can't hammer home enough. Reach out to the subject matter experts. Ask questions from the beginning.

You don't want to do a large-scale project, have it look amazing, and then six months later, a customer is calling you back saying, you know, they're having all these issues when it could have been avoided, you know, by just, you know, asking another question or two. And usually, when you deal with subject matter experts, they know the questions to ask you. So, you don't even have to really know what to ask.

You just need to know what you're doing and what kind of project. So, you know, those two things, I think, is the biggest takeaway from this. Fantastic.

Gentlemen, thank you so much for walking us through the engineering, materials, and best practices that make cable infill systems both beautiful and safe. Your insights really help clarify why these systems require thoughtful design and collaboration. We appreciate you joining us on the Spec Shaman Podcast as we continue exploring the details that make great architecture possible.

Thank you for listening to the Spec Shaman Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to our show and leave us a review. A huge thank you to our guests who made this show possible.

Thanks all for this episode, folks. See you next time.