The Power of Partnership

The Partnership Way with Riane Eisler

• Cherri Jacobs Pruitt/Riane Eisler • Season 1 • Episode 1

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Welcome to the

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introductory episode
of The Power of Partnership Podcast.

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I'm Riane Eisler, founder of the Center
for Partnership Systems.

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This podcast brings
you voices from the partnership movement,

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people using partnership practices
to build a world

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That values caring nature
and shared prosperity.

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the Power of Partnership podcast is hosted

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by Cherri Jacobs Pruitt,

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a health policy and partnership scholar.

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Today's episode describes my journey,

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pioneering the partnership movement.

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And now to today, POP

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Power of Partnership podcast.

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It is such an honor to be interviewing you

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for this first episode
of The Power of Partnership podcast.

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Your research writing
and speaking on cultural transformation

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has changed the lives of so many people
worldwide, and I'm thrilled to be able

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to share so many of their
stories through this podcast.

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Can we begin today by you sharing with us

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what led you to develop
the partnership movement?

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Thank you.

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And it's a pleasure to be with you
and I am delighted

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to do this interview and

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I start wih my childhood
because my passion for this work and yes,

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I have a great passion for it,
is rooted in my early childhood

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experiences as a child
refugee with my parents from the Nazis.

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And we fled my native Vienna at night
just with what we could carry.

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My parents were able to obtain
an entry permit to Cuba,

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one of the two places in the world
that we could go to.

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The other one was Shanghai, China
and there I grew up

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in, the industrial slums of Havana,
experiencing at first.

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Until  my parents, got back on their feet.

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Poverty surrounded by poverty.

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And all of this
really led me to questions

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that I'm sure many of you have asked.

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Does
it have to be this way? When we humans

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have such an enormous capacity
for caring, for

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sensitivity, for creativity,

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why has there been so much insensitivity,
violence, destructiveness

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and fast forward, many years.

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It was these questions that eventually led

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to my multidisciplinary
cross-cultural research

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What did you find with your research?

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Well, what I found was,

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that you have to.

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Einstein said it.

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He said you cannot solve problems
with the same thinking

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that created them
with the same consciousness,

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or lack of consciousness
that created them.

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It was only when I stepped back

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and really looked at the patterns

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forget all about
the conventional social categories

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and looked at the patterns,
the configurations

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that kept repeating themselves
cross-culturally trans-historically

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and yes drawing from many disciplines,
not just one.

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I was able to connect the dots.

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I was able to see two configurations.

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There were no names for them,
so I called one Domination System

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and yes, it’s what we're trying to leave
behind.

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It's what happened in our prehistory.

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The imposition of top down authoritarian

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rigidly male dominated, punitive,

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violent societies

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and what how we lived, how
we lived for millennia.

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And what we're trying to really recover in
many,

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really disconnected ways, but
it’s all part of a movement towards what I’ve called

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A partnership configuration

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in which in families,

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in education,

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in religion, in politics, in economics,

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you have a very, very different

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social configuration.

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So can you speak about how

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these different paradigms,
this domination and partnership

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configuration plays out in societies
today?

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Absolutely

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for millennia, foraging societies

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that the anthropologist and my co-author
of Nurturing Our Humanity.

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The anthropologist, Douglas Fry

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calls the original partnerships societies,

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they conform to that configuration.
In the Chalice and the Blade

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I talk about Catalhoyuk ,
for example.

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The largest Neolithic society ever discovered.

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And the one of the people who excavated

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that society most recently Ian Hodder

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in a film interview.

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And there is a film Human Kind

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being made on my life and my work.

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He says, yes,
these were partnership societies

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glylanic societies to
use one of the terms

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that’s gender specific that I coined.

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Minoan Crete was another example,
an outlier really,

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after the shift to a domination

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system was beginning to really take root

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all over but, it was an island in the Mediterranean.

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No signs of destruction
through warfare

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like in Catalhoyuk

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for a thousand years. In Minoan Crete,
no signs of

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any conflict between the various city
states.

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No armed conflict, no fortifications, women
played a major role.

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It was before women
became really male chattels

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technologies of sexuality
and of reproduction.

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And that's it.

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This was not the case in our pre-history.

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And it is also, again, fast forwarding,

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if you look at Northern European nations
like Finland, like Sweden

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like Norway, like Denmark,

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they're not socialist,

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they are more partnership 
oriented societies, they are first of all

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in both the family and the state
or tribe

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they are really much,
much more democratic, more egalitarian.

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And men

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I mean,
they too have a domination heritage,

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but they're getting rid of it
more and more and more.

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So more men are doing
the so-called women's work today,

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not only in these Nordic nations,
but all over the world really

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we’re finding men doing so-called women

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work, women’s
work of feeding babies, diapering babies.

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I mean, but this relates to the second

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really cornerstone

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of these systems of partnership
systems, women in these nations.

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are 40 to 50% of the national legislature.

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But they really

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are societies in which

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they call themselves
often caring societies.

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They have universal child care

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with good pay, good training.

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You know, we have a very gendered
system of values is so peculiar.

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I mean, we insist that, for example,

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plumbers be trained,
the people to whom we entrust pipes.

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Right.

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But we don't insist that child care
workers be trained and paid well.

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I mean, this is reality stood on it’s head.

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Isn't it?

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And we need to stand reality on it’s

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right side up.

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And of course,

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but it isn't that only that women
are trained to be caring in domination

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systems, it’s a dynamic of these systems that

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as the status of women rises men too,
because it’s men, who also vote

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for these caring policies
but are  very extensive

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paid parental leave for both mothers
and fathers, for example,

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caring for the environment
as the status of women rises men.

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No longer feel is such a threat
to their status, so their

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masculinity, as

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defined in the old domination system.

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So they to vote for caring policies.

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And of course,
if you look at these societies,

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yes they do a value caring for people

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starting at birth and caring
for our natural life support systems.

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They're way ahead of us in combating
climate change.

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Right.

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You know, really
carbon emissions are lower, etc..

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They're not perfect.

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And it is not true
that it's that they're that way

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because they're relatively homogeneous.

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The reality, is that they these nations

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invest more
proportionately in caring for people

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in the developed world, people
who are not genetically related to them

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by any means it’s that they conform more

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to the partnership
domination, social scale

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and really conform more to the partnership
configuration.

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So it's a lot
that I'm trying to communicate here,

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but we do need to free ourselves

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from the categories we have inherited

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from more rigid domination times.

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You are listening
to the Power of Partnership podcast.

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If you would like us
to share your partnership story

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or if you would like to become
a proud sponsor of the POP podcast,

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please contact us at center@partnershipway.org

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And now back to today's episode.

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You know,

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it is really interesting
if you look at modern history

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through this lens,

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what you see
is that every single progressive

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social movement
has actually challenged the same thing

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a tradition of domination,
whether it was the Enlightenment,

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so-called rights of man movement
challenging

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the so-called divinely ordained,
you know,

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I mean, that's it, you know, God fearing
and divinely ordained are the two catch words

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really in domination
oriented religion.

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So it was supposed to be divinely ordained

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that kings and nobles
rule over their quote subjects.

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Then if you look at the abolitionist,
the anti-colonial,

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the civil rights,
the Black Lives Matter movement.

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What are they challenging? Another tradition
of domination, the so called again

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divinely ordained right of the quote superior

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race to rule over an inferior one.

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If you look at the feminist movement,

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the contemporary global
women's rights movement

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They’re challenging another

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so called divinely ordained
right of men to rule over the women

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and children in the quote, castles
you know, a military metaphor

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of their homes
all the way to the environmental movement,

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challenging our once hallowed and idealized

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conquest and domination of nature

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that at our level of technology

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of population is about to do us in

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so but we have failed to pay

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sufficient attention
to these four cornerstones of family,

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of gender, of economics,

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and of story and language.

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And we must we need an integrated

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frame and the partnership domination

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social scale gives us that frame.

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So let's talk just a bit about your books.

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You've authored numerous books.

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You've already spoken
a touch about The Chalice and The Blade,

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and of course the title of this podcast
series is The Power of Partnership,

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and today's episode
featuring you is titled The Partnership

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Way, which are two of the books
that you've written.

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Can you speak a little bit
about how these two books came to be

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and how our listeners can learn from
these books how to move towards

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the partnership end of the continuum
throughout all aspects of their lives?

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Well, these are really

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work books that you’re talking about.
You know, the first two books

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drawing from my research
were the Chalice and the Blade.

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The subtitle is Our History,
Our Future.

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And that's exactly what it's about,
and it really is

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about our history.

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Both halves of,

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you know, there are two forms of humanity,

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male and female,
and if you rank one over the other,

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and if you also have
these rigid gender stereotypes

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which you need for this ranking,

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what you get is what we've got,
which is in-group versus

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outgroup thinking,
whether it’s based in differences

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becomes equated with dominating
or being dominated

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with superiority

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and inferiority
with being served or serving, right,

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the second book that I wrote,
which was called Sacred Pleasure,

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which is in itself a heresy
because think about it,

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the domination systems are really based
on fear of pain

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aren’t they, the second book Sex, Myths,
and the Politics of the Body.

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This is the subtitle

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of the book that applies

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the Partnership domination, social scale

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to both sexuality and spirituality.

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And it's one of my favorite books actually.

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But then I started to turn to
what do we do?

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There are three books
actually dealing with that.

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One that I’ll just quickly touch upon
is called Tomorrow's Children

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and it's about education, obviously.

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And I really think

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that we have to pay
a lot of attention to that.

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I mean, think about it.

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Not so long ago.

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Physical punishment was built

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into even Western education,
and it still is in the United States.

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Children can be paddled, can be caned

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in many of our states still,
according to the law because if you think

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about what happens to children
in domination families, fear

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and a lot of rage and a lot of pain,

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and what happens in

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domination systems is a dynamic, again,

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that this fear, this rage,

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this pain is then deflected
into in-group versus out-group

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thinking against the bad, quote the weak,
just as they were.

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I mean, think about that.

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And so you get this in-group versus
out-group

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violence, rage, anger.

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And we've got to really understand

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that this is not something
that we can blame individual families for.

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This is something characteristic
of families

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of the ideal norm for families
really in domination systems.

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But getting now to your question
which I eventually will.

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Both the Partnership Way,

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which I wrote with my wonderful late husband,
David Loye,

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it's a workbook for both Chalice

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and for Sacred Pleasure

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to really
with a lot of experiential exercises.

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And so forth

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and I really highly recommend it.

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And then there's also
the Power of Partnership like the name

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of our wonderful podcast with you.

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But it is really well, it won

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the Nautilus Award as the best

00;18;26;22 - 00;18;29;21
self-help book of that year.

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First of all

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each chapter has going further,

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you know, questions, exercises, etc.

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It starts
with how we relate to ourselves.

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And yes, it uses the partnership,
domination, social scale.

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Do we have this noise, 

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in our heads, this voice telling us,
we're not good enough,

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you know, etc..

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And it isn't, as I said,
and I want to emphasize this, our parents fault

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I mean, they just pass on what they

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were exposed to and
what they were taught was good parenting.

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And you know that there's still so called
Christian parenting

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guides in the United States that recommend
inflicting pain on children

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so that quote

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that they
learn that the parents word is law.

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I mean think about that.

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Think of how that socializes
us to identify with strong men leaders

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who also are punitive

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and with in-group versus out-group

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policies and actions.

00;19;46;54 - 00;19;50;12
So the really
the Power of Partnership goes on then

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to our intimate relations,
you know, family

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and other intimate relations
to our work and community relations.

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But it doesn't stop there
because it's all of one clause.

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It then goes on to our national relations,
our international relations,

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our relationships
with our Mother earth with nature.

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With our natural life support system
and to our spiritual relations,

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because spirituality can be very much,
you know, religion

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this spirituality of our conventional
religions that we've inherited.

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I mean, think about it you know,
sometimes I say it as a joke

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that when I get really depressed
about what's happening in our world,

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I think of the European Middle
Ages. Why?

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Because they looked a lot like the Taliban.

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They really oriented to the domination
configurations.

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There were some partnership elements
but the Inquisition, the Crusades,

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the witch burnings, human rights forget it,
women and children’s rights.

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I mean, that was just beyond the pale.

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So think about the fact that we have
as I said been moving forward

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but we must have a really coordinated

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social, political,
economic and family agenda.

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Because we really need to come together.

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If you think of the trends
towards partnership they’re all over

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I mean these thousands and thousands
of non-governmental organizations

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that we have working on climate change,
working on domestic so-called domestic

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violence, and it's violence,
it is fundamental violence.

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We have to understand the dynamics
of how systems work.

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And it isn't just simple linear

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causes and effects, it's interactions.

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And we've been taught,
I mean, I know I woke up as if from a long drug sleep

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to suddenly realize that in all my years
of so-called higher education,

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you know, there had been hardly anything
by, about, or for people like me: women

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It is beginning to slowly change,
but much too slowly.

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And it’s all an add-on, you know, 

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I mean, women's studies, men's studies,
gender studies,

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they're an add-on they need to be part of

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every part of the curriculum.

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We need
integrated cross-cultural education.

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And we are working on it at the Center

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for Partnership Systems.
Which is a wonderful segway into

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I wanted to ask you to speak about in
more detail

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is the Center for Partnerships Systems
how that was founded

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and what types of resources and support

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can our listeners find at the center?

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Well, it was really founded
as there was such a response.

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You know, I didn't know how The Chalice and The Blade, 
which challenges

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so many givens, right.

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Would be received, but

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First of all, I mean, one response was,

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I’ve always know this somehow, but you have

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brought forth the evidence for it.

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you know,

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and that has been really marvelous.

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So the center was founded
as a response to that response,

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and the Chalice first came out in

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86, 1986,

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and so the center is over 35 years old.

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And it's pretty amazing for

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a not for profit to last that long.

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And we've done many, many things.

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And if you go to our web site, centerforpartnership.org

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look at history and you’ll see

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how we have really had an impact.

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But to come to right now
and to come to the resources.

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We offer many resources, first of all for families.

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We offer Caring
and Connect Parenting Guide

00;24;07;35 - 00;24;10;28
Alicia Rando wrote it

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based on really the newest,
neuroscience and it has been endorsed

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by top pediatricians,

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but it's available for free
in both English and in Spanish.

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And it's short and it's to the point.

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We have developed

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a technology toolkit,

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because technology is really values
neutral.

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It depends on how it is programmed, right?

00;24;40;03 - 00;24;43;02
We see that very much and how it is used.

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And yes, we also have now

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shortened it and condensed it.

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And you know, they did it

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also for general use. And it’s really

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asking us to really look

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at our socialization and yes, uses

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the partnership domination 
social scale and the four cornerstones.

00;25;10;15 - 00;25;15;30

We are working on a new index.

00;25;15;55 - 00;25;20;41
As I said, I wrote a book,
The Real Wealth of Nations,

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and the subtitle
is Creating a Caring Economics

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caring economics of partnerism

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that really recognizes

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the economic value of caring

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for people starting at birth
and caring for our natural life support systems.

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And there are statistics on this, but

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like our social movements,
we are all over the place,

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like the social progressive movements,

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you know, where it's really all
part of the partnership movement.

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So we
we are trying to bring this together.

00;25;56;25 - 00;26;01;02
So we launched the first iteration
and you can find out about it

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at our website, in 2014

00;26;06;01 - 00;26;09;00
with a grant from the Kellogg Foundation.

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we're trying to really show

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 not just a snapshot of what is

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like other so-called

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GDP alternatives

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also show what investments

00;26;25;54 - 00;26;29;04
what inputs create better outputs.

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And there's no question
like the United States

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has the highest child mortality,
the highest

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infant poverty 

00;26;42;39 - 00;26;45;39
rate, the highest maternal

00;26;46;23 - 00;26;51;45
mortality
rate of any developed quote, unquote, nation.

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And not coincidentally,
we invest the least

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in family support.

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now is the time

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because the old institutions,
the old operating systems

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whether they’re economic or family or social

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and are not responding in this period

00;27;14;57 - 00;27;18;01
of rapid technological, social,

00;27;18;51 - 00;27;21;11
economic, climate change.

00;27;21;11 - 00;27;24;38
I mean,
with so much of the population in denial,

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which is built into domination,
families, by the way.

00;27;29;19 - 00;27;31;35
I mean, it is really

00;27;31;35 - 00;27;35;02
something that we need to understand
and we need.

00;27;35;24 - 00;27;38;24
Well, what we need is a partnership,

00;27;39;21 - 00;27;43;06
social, political and family agenda.

00;27;43;08 - 00;27;46;24
And that's why I keep, you know, really
pushing

00;27;47;00 - 00;27;51;22
for read The Real Wealth of Nations, read
The Chalice and The Blade

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and read Nurturing Our Humanity

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because the evidence is so strong.

00;27;57;55 - 00;28;02;02
In addition,
the center's courses are another way

00;28;02;02 - 00;28;05;02
to dig deeper into this information.

00;28;05;27 - 00;28;08;23
you can sign up at the center's website,

00;28;08;23 - 00;28;11;23
which is centerforpartnership.org

00;28;11;47 - 00;28;15;04
There will also be a link
in the show notes for today's

00;28;16;06 - 00;28;17;05
episode.

00;28;17;15 - 00;28;20;16
So Riane, before we end our discussion,
I wonder

00;28;20;16 - 00;28;24;32
if you have any final closing words
for our listeners.

00;28;25;49 - 00;28;28;58
Well, I believe in human creativity.

00;28;30;10 - 00;28;32;50
And if we know, it's

00;28;32;50 - 00;28;37;23
not just about deconstruction
about disruption.

00;28;37;39 - 00;28;40;39
This work is about reconstruction

00;28;41;10 - 00;28;44;10
and we have historically

00;28;44;31 - 00;28;46;35
learned that people

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respond much better to

00;28;50;03 - 00;28;53;03
if we know what we're trying to build.

00;28;53;58 - 00;28;56;57
That is so very, very important.

00;28;57;46 - 00;29;00;44
And that's what this work is all about,

00;29;00;44 - 00;29;04;45
is to not just show
what we're trying to leave behind, but

00;29;04;47 - 00;29;10;52
what are we trying to build and we’re always back
to the four cornerstones

00;29;11;41 - 00;29;15;20
of family and childhood, of gender
which are marginalized, ignored.

00;29;16;37 - 00;29;17;37
Economics.

00;29;17;37 - 00;29;22;05
But a new economics, a caring
economics of partnerism

00;29;22;28 - 00;29;26;49
and yes story and language
especially our stories

00;29;26;49 - 00;29;31;55
about human nature,
which are false, which are untrue.

00;29;32;09 - 00;29;35;09
And we're finding out
from the neuroscience

00;29;35;27 - 00;29;38;27
and from many, many disciplines, really.

00;29;38;30 - 00;29;43;20
And for example, we feel good,
don't we, when we care for others,

00;29;44;10 - 00;29;47;21
whether it's for a lover or for

00;29;47;55 - 00;29;51;04
a mother or a father, for a child,

00;29;51;14 - 00;29;55;03
even for a pet, that's human nature.

00;29;55;32 - 00;29;59;40
We want caring connections
and we need a social,

00;29;59;56 - 00;30;03;46
economic and political and family system

00;30;04;17 - 00;30;07;15
that rewards this.

00;30;07;15 - 00;30;10;28
And we can have it, we have had it.

00;30;11;01 - 00;30;12;02
And we can.

00;30;12;02 - 00;30;15;09
And there are millions of people in the world in

00;30;15;09 - 00;30;18;09
bits and pieces trying to build it.

00;30;18;18 - 00;30;20;08
So let's do it.