In “Unscrewing Economics” host Cherri Jacobs Pruitt interviews award winning author and journalist Rickey Gard Diamond on money, politics, and how Partnership-based economic systems are spreading throughout the world. Included in this episode is the importance of understanding our personal economic stories, a summary of how economics has driven politics in the United States, and how its roots in the domination configuration ensure that those at the top of the economic pyramid keep all profits but trickle all costs to those beneath them. The show notes for “Unscrewing Economics” include links to resources to learn more and connect to the Partnership economic movement!
The Real Wealth of Nation, Riane Eisler
Screwnomics, Rickey Gard Diamond
Ms. Magazine’s Women Unscrewing Economics series with Rickey Gard Diamond
Riane Eisler’s Social Wealth Economic Indicators (Social Wealth Index)
Invest in Better (Values Aligned Investing)
If Women Counted, A New Feminist Economists, Marilyn Waring
International Association of Feminist Economists (IAFFE)
The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future, Riane Eisler
The Power of Partnership: Seven Relationships that will Change Your Life, Riane Eisler
Center for Partnership Systems
Resilience, Rising Appalachia
In “Unscrewing Economics” host Cherri Jacobs Pruitt interviews award winning author and journalist Rickey Gard Diamond on money, politics, and how Partnership-based economic systems are spreading throughout the world. Included in this episode is the importance of understanding our personal economic stories, a summary of how economics has driven politics in the United States, and how its roots in the domination configuration ensure that those at the top of the economic pyramid keep all profits but trickle all costs to those beneath them. The show notes for “Unscrewing Economics” include links to resources to learn more and connect to the Partnership economic movement!
The Real Wealth of Nation, Riane Eisler
Screwnomics, Rickey Gard Diamond
Ms. Magazine’s Women Unscrewing Economics series with Rickey Gard Diamond
Riane Eisler’s Social Wealth Economic Indicators (Social Wealth Index)
Invest in Better (Values Aligned Investing)
If Women Counted, A New Feminist Economists, Marilyn Waring
International Association of Feminist Economists (IAFFE)
The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future, Riane Eisler
The Power of Partnership: Seven Relationships that will Change Your Life, Riane Eisler
Center for Partnership Systems
Resilience, Rising Appalachia
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Welcome
to the Power of Partnership podcast.
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I'm Riane Eisler, President of the Center
for Partnership Systems.
00;00;29;33 - 00;00;33;38
This podcast brings
you voices from the partnership
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movement,
people using partnership practices
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to build a world that values caring
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nature and shared prosperity.
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The Power of Partnership podcast is hosted
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by Cherri Jacobs Pruitt,
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a health policy and Partnership scholar.
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Today Cherri interviews award winning
journalist and writer Rickey Gard Diamond...
00;01;03;02 - 00;01;09;24
on money, politics, and partnership based
cultural change.
00;01;09;31 - 00;01;19;31
Now on to the POP podcast, showing how we can
create an economic system and structure
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that values caring for each other,
and the planet.
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Welcome, Ricky,
and thank you so much for joining us
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for the Power of Partnership podcast.
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Oh, it's my pleasure to be here.
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As you know, Riane describes economics
as being one of the four cornerstones
00;01;52;18 - 00;01;55;55
that's really critical
in how every society is formed.
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So, you know, economics
along with childhood and family relations,
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the way we look at gender
issues of gender, and then, of course,
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the narratives and stories
that are inherent within a society.
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So why do you think
that lack of accessibility
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related to economics exists?
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Well, I think I'm a I'm a good example
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because when you talk
about the importance of narrative,
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my own story, discovering
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my own story was actually
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it was right under my nose,
and yet I never dared
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even think about it to myself.
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I had begun.
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My radical education in economics began
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as a single mother with three kids.
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I was also going to school.
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I don't know how I did it all,
but a lot of women do and I was doing it.
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And yet I couldn't make my budget work.
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And here I had an extra check.
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I was working full time.
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I had an extra check of child
support of $25 a week
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for my three kids,
and I couldn't make my budget work.
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And I thought there was
something wrong with me
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and I was so ashamed
when I had to go to the welfare office
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to try to get some government help.
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And I did get government help.
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But I also met other women there who were
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mostly women of color, who were
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I could see in,
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you know, worse shape than I was.
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And yet and then that inspired me
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to go into the
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the war on poverty.
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I became an editor of a statewide
paper here
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covering all kinds of government
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policy issues and related to poverty.
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And yet,
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if you had asked me about economic issues,
if you had used that word,
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the economy, I wouldn't have been able
to speak about it.
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I never saw the connection
between my own story and that larger story
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that mostly gets reported in
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terms of what Wall
Street says is happening.
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I never connected the two,
and I think that's true for so many people
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because that conversation
has been dominated
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very much by a particular class
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of a particular gender,
of a particular race,
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which has dominated that realm of
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money and for a long time. So
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they're not....
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Wall Street continues to be a place that
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is not open to
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terribly open to to women
and to people of color.
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It’s purpose, the overall strategy
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for their narrative is winning.
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Winning requires a good many losers.
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And that's exactly what we see
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happening with growing inequality
in our country.
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And can you talk about how
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the story of the economy translates
into our politics?
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I guess I began to think about this
when I....
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when I saw
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the Nobel lecture of Milton Friedman.
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All of a sudden
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what had been called voodoo economics
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by the first George Bush
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was suddenly Reaganomics and was,
you know, very, very popular.
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and, you know,
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All of a sudden,
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this free market economy was
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the only choice you had.
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And I wondered how that came about.
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And I noticed that Milton Friedman,
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who had just gotten the Nobel Prize,
which by the way, is not
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the original Nobel
part of the original Nobel Prize,
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it was added by as a kind of memorial
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by the Bank of Sweden.
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So it's kind of an insider award
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that lifted economics up
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to the high level of physics and
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Milton Friedman, who was
00;06;23;59 - 00;06;27;12
Reaganomics, most favorite economist
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from the Chicago school,
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presented economics
as if it were a force of nature,
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as if it were physics, and wanted to
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remove any kind of
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humane qualities
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other than it was
numbers and graphs and and physics
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and just a matter of momentum and force
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rather than of humans
making certain decisions that
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disqualified some people and
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and made others winners.
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When I saw that, I wondered,
why did he do that? Why?
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Because the previous economists
were Keynesian economists
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and were more humane and considered..
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Mr. Keynes decided that
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if there was a conflict
between renters and landlords
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that it was better
for the government to favor the renters
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because they were the real engine
of the productive economy.
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And all of that was reversed
when the free marketers came in to power.
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So I wonder why was that?
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Why did they kind of
put themselves up on a pedestal
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like that
and exalt themselves to the,
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you know, being a force of nature
and not accountable to
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anyone and
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I learned that there was
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a lot of action
happening at the Chicago school,
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the University
of Chicago, having to do with
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women's
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saying, wait a minute, all the books,
you're showing us,
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All of the stories you're telling us
have been created by a particular class
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of a particular gender,
of a particular race.
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And maybe there are, you know,
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wider realms that we could be looking at.
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And so I think it was kind of a reaction
to people
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demanding in the
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in the sixties and seventies, demanding
00;08;41;56 - 00;08;45;21
some answers,
some accountability from their government.
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And so physics came out in the closet and
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became economics.
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What is working? What are what are you seeing
in terms of models of an economic system
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that is truly partnership based?
00;09;03;44 - 00;09;06;15
or moving to a partnership
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based economics system? Yes,
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I would say that
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I'll point to some other women
authors that I know of
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who are talking about some of these
big changes, Marjorie Micheli
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and talking about cooperatives, worker
ownership
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of Georgia Kelly
talking about taking seminars
00;09;29;25 - 00;09;33;14
at Mondragon,
which is a cooperative corporation
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that is an umbrella for something
like 93 cooperatives
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that when the 2008 crash happened,
did not layoff
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all kinds of workers
because they were the owners
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and they were involved
in making their own decisions.
00;09;48;02 - 00;09;49;38
And so
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they survived
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the crash without all the human misery
00;09;54;25 - 00;09;58;34
that we experienced here
in the United States.
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I can talk about Ellen Brown and her work
00;10;02;12 - 00;10;06;55
in exposing the nature of currency as a...
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creation of debt
and public banking and public money
00;10;12;42 - 00;10;17;38
being another alternative
that is more partnership
00;10;17;38 - 00;10;21;54
based than an exchange based rather than
00;10;21;59 - 00;10;22;53
debt based.
00;10;23;27 - 00;10;27;47
So talking about new ways
of doing business
00;10;27;52 - 00;10;31;37
and new ways of thinking about currency
00;10;31;42 - 00;10;36;18
and debt, new ways of thinking about
00;10;36;23 - 00;10;37;51
caring for the
00;10;37;51 - 00;10;41;05
environment
and making that part of the measurements.
00;10;41;05 - 00;10;44;14
I mean, Riane’s work with Nancy Fulbrae
00;10;44;14 - 00;10;45;48
at UMass.
00;10;45;48 - 00;10;49;13
the social wealth
economic indicators,
00;10;49;18 - 00;10;52;52
which also measures
00;10;52;57 - 00;10;56;47
the caring of community
and the caring in the environment
00;10;56;47 - 00;11;01;33
that happens all around us,
and including that and also showing
00;11;01;33 - 00;11;07;28
how caring about those things,
including that in your measurements. Also
00;11;07;33 - 00;11;09;44
revealed the
00;11;09;44 - 00;11;13;51
good outcome that comes from that caring.
00;11;13;56 - 00;11;20;18
You actually have a healthier economic
results when you invest in those things.
00;11;20;22 - 00;11;22;37
I just did an interview
00;11;22;37 - 00;11;27;08
with a woman named Janine Firpo, who,
00;11;27;10 - 00;11;31;17
along with another woman named Ellen
Rimmer, has
00;11;31;22 - 00;11;34;20
an organization called Invest for Better.
00;11;34;20 - 00;11;38;25
And because women often
00;11;38;30 - 00;11;40;18
often have money, inherit
00;11;40;18 - 00;11;43;18
money, have generational wealth,
00;11;43;30 - 00;11;48;06
and yet they hand it over to other money
managers,
00;11;48;11 - 00;11;50;49
Janine is encouraging women,
00;11;50;49 - 00;11;55;32
Janine and Ellen,
and are encouraging women to
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to study up and to become familiar.
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And they've even created what they call
00;12;03;19 - 00;12;05;39
investment learning circles for women
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to kind of create peer learning circles,
00;12;08;39 - 00;12;13;10
to educate one another, we learn well that way.
00;12;13;14 - 00;12;16;58
And really talking about
00;12;17;03 - 00;12;19;04
something called ESG
00;12;19;04 - 00;12;20;48
ESG
00;12;20;48 - 00;12;24;42
investments are environmental. People..
00;12;24;42 - 00;12;28;35
look at the environmental policies
of a company,
00;12;28;40 - 00;12;33;42
the sustainability of that company
and its context,
00;12;33;47 - 00;12;38;30
the effect that it has on the communities
they serve
00;12;38;35 - 00;12;41;31
and the manner
00;12;41;31 - 00;12;44;31
in which they govern their organization.
00;12;44;36 - 00;12;48;23
And this is
00;12;48;28 - 00;12;53;15
then she calls it
values aligned investing.
00;12;53;17 - 00;12;55;34
There are more people talking
about this now.
00;12;55;34 - 00;12;59;00
And in fact,
it's become something of a political hot
00;12;59;00 - 00;13;04;27
button issue because there are those oil
and gas industries
00;13;04;32 - 00;13;07;15
that see this as very, very dangerous.
00;13;07;15 - 00;13;13;19
And so you'll hear a lot about something
called woke capitalism,
00;13;13;24 - 00;13;19;26
which Texas and Florida
have actually legislated against,
00;13;19;31 - 00;13;24;05
so that pension plans in Texas
00;13;24;10 - 00;13;26;41
are not allowed to invest in
00;13;26;41 - 00;13;30;46
these ESG approved kinds of
00;13;30;46 - 00;13;35;18
funds, which is interesting to think about.
So...
00;13;35;18 - 00;13;40;11
it's a really important movement
and it has its limits.
00;13;40;11 - 00;13;44;29
Investment has its limits,
but it could make a huge difference
00;13;44;29 - 00;13;49;15
in what sorts of companies are
00;13;49;20 - 00;13;51;49
deemed
00;13;51;49 - 00;13;53;26
reliable for investments
00;13;53;26 - 00;13;55;21
and where we want our economy to go.
00;13;55;21 - 00;13;59;58
Rikki, are there any models
that we're seeing from other countries
00;14;00;07 - 00;14;03;17
around shifting economics to value
00;14;03;17 - 00;14;07;20
the well-being of their nations?
00;14;07;25 - 00;14;12;24
Yes. In fact,
there are many and New Zealand
00;14;12;24 - 00;14;18;40
being one, Canada being another, France
having new measures that look
00;14;18;40 - 00;14;22;25
at the value of the social wealth
00;14;22;30 - 00;14;26;42
that we create with caring. And
00;14;26;47 - 00;14;30;16
I have to also credit
00;14;30;21 - 00;14;33;51
the wonderful economist from New Zealand,
00;14;33;51 - 00;14;39;30
Marilyn Waring,
who talked about this with her book,
00;14;39;35 - 00;14;41;01
If Women Counted,
00;14;41;01 - 00;14;44;34
which kind of brought up
that whole subject.
00;14;44;39 - 00;14;47;46
She became a New Zealand parliamentarian
00;14;47;46 - 00;14;51;23
when she was just a young musician,
starting out,
00;14;51;38 - 00;14;54;49
one of the first women
to be elected to Parliament
00;14;54;54 - 00;14;58;47
and learned about how budgets were done
and how the GDP was done.
00;14;58;47 - 00;15;02;48
And she said, Well, that's ridiculous.
00;15;02;52 - 00;15;04;13
And they said, Oh, well,
00;15;04;13 - 00;15;08;14
we know it is kind of goofy,
but it's the way it's always been done.
00;15;08;14 - 00;15;12;55
Nobody was questioning it,
but she did a great job of doing that
00;15;12;55 - 00;15;15;36
and actually bringing it to the public
conversation.
00;15;15;36 - 00;15;17;22
What Canada has been doing,
00;15;17;22 - 00;15;24;19
which is the first step in any of this,
is measuring what isn’t now measured.
00;15;24;24 - 00;15;29;21
And then, you know,
you've got more pieces to the puzzle
00;15;29;26 - 00;15;34;22
to put together
and to connect and see various trends,
00;15;34;26 - 00;15;37;46
which is the value
of these new measurements.
00;15;37;46 - 00;15;39;37
having to do with
00;15;39;37 - 00;15;42;26
so many experiments, for instance,
being done with
00;15;42;26 - 00;15;44;55
grants that come to families,
00;15;44;55 - 00;15;47;55
which was an experiment in Canada.
00;15;47;56 - 00;15;51;16
And then looking at
what effect did it have
00;15;51;16 - 00;15;54;52
on the families,
did they stop going to work?
00;15;54;57 - 00;15;57;57
Did they
how did they do when they went to school?
00;15;58;06 - 00;16;00;59
And then connecting those dots
and seeing that,
00;16;00;59 - 00;16;04;17
well, having some
00;16;04;22 - 00;16;05;25
what do I want to say?
00;16;05;25 - 00;16;13;01
Some regularity,
some relaxation of financial terror,
00;16;13;06 - 00;16;18;35
with a reliable income
is actually a helpful thing.
00;16;18;35 - 00;16;22;16
And you can see it
when you look at the school grades,
00;16;22;21 - 00;16;26;15
when you look at the work participation,
when you look at education
00;16;26;15 - 00;16;31;46
levels being raised as a result of this,
you can see the good outcomes.
00;16;31;51 - 00;16;34;38
That isn't possible unless you measure it.
00;16;34;38 - 00;16;36;34
And I have to say that the United States
00;16;36;34 - 00;16;41;49
has been particularly successful
in resisting that effort.
00;16;41;54 - 00;16;43;58
It just has never
00;16;43;58 - 00;16;47;30
happened here and it needs to.
00;16;47;31 - 00;16;50;43
There is an international association
00;16;50;43 - 00;16;55;42
of feminist economists
that I just met in South Africa
00;16;55;42 - 00;17;01;12
that Nancy Fulbrae was actually part
of founding and
00;17;01;16 - 00;17;04;06
gaining more influence,
00;17;04;06 - 00;17;08;39
although I have to say that in my latest
column,
00;17;08;44 - 00;17;11;40
I noted that
00;17;11;40 - 00;17;15;55
we talk about STEM education,
which is science,
00;17;15;59 - 00;17;18;11
technology,
00;17;18;11 - 00;17;20;22
engineering and math
00;17;20;22 - 00;17;23;35
male dominated fields, that women
00;17;23;40 - 00;17;27;09
have made a concerted effort to enter.
00;17;27;14 - 00;17;32;09
And I said that really
it should be STEEM, not STEM
00;17;32;14 - 00;17;34;27
economics should be that
00;17;34;27 - 00;17;39;50
second E in there,
because in fact, women are making more
00;17;39;54 - 00;17;44;12
inroads
in engineering than they are in economics.
00;17;44;17 - 00;17;50;30
And so even though more women
economists are being listened to,
00;17;50;35 - 00;17;54;06
we have a need for more younger
00;17;54;10 - 00;18;00;12
millennial economists who are taking a new
look at the economy and helping us
00;18;00;12 - 00;18;03;50
to change the story to one that wages life.
00;18;03;54 - 00;18;07;37
let's start talking a bit about your work
directly,
00;18;07;44 - 00;18;12;19
specifically An Economy Of Our Own
and the other coalition
00;18;12;19 - 00;18;18;16
building work you're doing
and writings on economic issues.
00;18;18;20 - 00;18;20;26
Yes, Yes.
00;18;20;26 - 00;18;23;54
Well, when I wrote Screwnomics,
00;18;23;58 - 00;18;27;55
I proposed a column to
00;18;27;59 - 00;18;30;38
Ms. magazine and I now have a series
00;18;30;38 - 00;18;34;46
that Ms. magazine called Women
Unscrewing Screwnomics.
00;18;34;46 - 00;18;38;47
Now Screwnomics was my name for something
00;18;38;47 - 00;18;44;42
I saw all around me
that never seemed to be said out loud.
00;18;44;46 - 00;18;47;39
But is the economic theory that women
00;18;47;39 - 00;18;51;24
should always work for less
or even better for free?
00;18;51;24 - 00;18;52;38
Right.
00;18;52;38 - 00;18;56;01
So I named it Screwnomics,
which my mother would not have been
00;18;56;01 - 00;18;57;52
very pleased by that name.
00;18;57;52 - 00;19;02;10
But that is an expression that you hear
people use.
00;19;02;10 - 00;19;04;03
Well, I've just been screwed.
00;19;04;03 - 00;19;07;39
Well, when you look at the
00;19;07;44 - 00;19;08;58
as a person
00;19;08;58 - 00;19;12;15
interested in language,
which is me very much,
00;19;12;19 - 00;19;16;03
it's not a pleasant allegory at all.
00;19;16;08 - 00;19;20;02
What it's saying is to be
female is to be less
00;19;20;02 - 00;19;25;02
than and to be taken to be used.
00;19;25;07 - 00;19;27;24
Whether you give permission or not.
00;19;27;24 - 00;19;29;33
And that is not pleasant.
00;19;29;33 - 00;19;33;41
And in fact, it's
traumatic for women to think about.
00;19;33;41 - 00;19;37;42
I should give a trigger warning
when I talk about this.
00;19;37;42 - 00;19;43;00
But the wonderful thing about language
is that by changing it to women,
00;19;43;00 - 00;19;46;57
unscrewing screwnomics, all of a sudden
00;19;47;01 - 00;19;50;01
you see carpenters at work, right?
00;19;50;05 - 00;19;51;15
Building things.
00;19;51;15 - 00;19;53;50
And I think that is what women are doing.
00;19;53;50 - 00;19;58;16
They're transforming
what has been a disadvantage
00;19;58;21 - 00;20;02;23
into an advantage because
00;20;02;27 - 00;20;07;01
women's values
tend to be aligned with collaboration,
00;20;07;15 - 00;20;10;27
with networking, with connection.
00;20;11;08 - 00;20;14;56
Screwnomics,
my book was really encouraging women
00;20;14;56 - 00;20;18;57
to talk to other women
about their own economic story,
00;20;18;57 - 00;20;22;21
which is often traumatic, often
very difficult.
00;20;22;26 - 00;20;25;43
There's a lot of shame
connected to talking about money.
00;20;25;47 - 00;20;31;17
And yet, if we begin to do that,
we learn we're not alone.
00;20;31;22 - 00;20;34;22
We're not alone. There are more of us
00;20;34;34 - 00;20;40;04
who are debtors than those who are
00;20;40;09 - 00;20;42;52
money landlords, let's call them.
00;20;42;52 - 00;20;49;03
And women together can
00;20;49;08 - 00;20;52;55
co-create wonderful new solutions,
00;20;53;00 - 00;20;56;09
which is part of
what an economy of our own is about.
00;20;56;09 - 00;20;58;31
It's an organization, a coalition.
00;20;58;31 - 00;21;02;23
which is based on Virginia Woolf's
00;21;02;27 - 00;21;07;01
famous essay about what a woman needs,
she needs two things.
00;21;07;01 - 00;21;10;01
Virginia
Woolf said she wrote this in 1920.
00;21;10;02 - 00;21;14;54
She needs an income
and she needs a room of her own.
00;21;14;59 - 00;21;19;13
And an economy of our own changes
the pronoun
00;21;19;13 - 00;21;24;54
because when women are in a room
of her own and talking about things,
00;21;24;54 - 00;21;28;54
they always are more inclusive
and we are too.
00;21;28;59 - 00;21;32;58
So an economy of our own
is about an economy that serves
00;21;33;09 - 00;21;37;29
all of us better and engages women.
00;21;37;29 - 00;21;42;59
It gives women a safe place
to talk together about economic issues.
00;21;43;04 - 00;21;45;39
Riane has been
00;21;45;44 - 00;21;46;47
a wonderful
00;21;46;47 - 00;21;50;23
conversationalist
in a couple of our zooms of our own.
00;21;50;23 - 00;21;51;28
We call them.
00;21;51;28 - 00;21;54;13
but Riane has talked about
00;21;54;13 - 00;21;56;45
what we call the Invisible Woman,
00;21;56;45 - 00;21;59;48
the woman who just doesn't show up
anywhere, in the GDP.
00;21;59;48 - 00;22;04;32
None of our caring
shows up anywhere in the GDP and also
00;22;04;32 - 00;22;07;47
in creating a safe digital world
00;22;08;01 - 00;22;11;21
that is more inclusive for all of us.
00;22;11;26 - 00;22;14;26
So we have about
00;22;14;26 - 00;22;17;26
a dozen zooms of our own conversations,
00;22;17;33 - 00;22;22;12
and each of those conversations
has an accompanying
00;22;22;17 - 00;22;25;15
for further learning resource
00;22;25;15 - 00;22;29;07
and they're all free because we
00;22;29;07 - 00;22;34;31
we want to make all of our information
freely available.
00;22;34;36 - 00;22;38;33
And we're beginning to develop something
that we're calling we're stealing Ellen
00;22;38;33 - 00;22;43;11
Remmer and Janine Firpo’s ideas
of that investment learning circle,
00;22;43;16 - 00;22;46;59
which we will
host on our website, I hope,
00;22;46;59 - 00;22;49;58
We have a survey on our website,
and we'd love to know
00;22;49;58 - 00;22;54;56
what women say
they most want to learn about because,
00;22;55;05 - 00;22;58;43
we kind of got two things on our agenda.
00;22;58;43 - 00;23;01;47
On the one hand, we want women to know
00;23;01;56 - 00;23;05;16
how to do
well in the economy that we have.
00;23;05;21 - 00;23;08;26
How can you survive
in this present economy?
00;23;08;26 - 00;23;12;02
How can you thrive
in this present economy?
00;23;12;07 - 00;23;16;54
And but also
how can we transform this economy
00;23;16;58 - 00;23;22;10
so that it isn't traumatic for so many
so that it isn't so unequal
00;23;22;10 - 00;23;26;58
and so that our environment
is not destroyed
00;23;27;03 - 00;23;30;29
and our families are not torn apart
00;23;30;29 - 00;23;35;57
by economic issues
and political issues that
00;23;36;02 - 00;23;38;01
the whole
00;23;38;01 - 00;23;40;14
phenomenon of scarcity
00;23;40;14 - 00;23;44;44
too little for too many is
00;23;44;49 - 00;23;47;18
puts all of is at odds with one another.
00;23;47;18 - 00;23;49;06
That's the way it operates.
00;23;49;06 - 00;23;51;34
We don't have to operate that way.
00;23;51;39 - 00;23;52;37
Wonderful.
00;23;52;37 - 00;23;56;09
And as we move,
hopefully towards a more partnership
00;23;56;09 - 00;24;01;31
oriented society related to gender
and we start seeing more single
00;24;01;31 - 00;24;06;53
headed households by men
or by nonbinary individuals,
00;24;06;53 - 00;24;10;56
I assume all of those resources
are going to be just as valuable for them
00;24;10;56 - 00;24;12;11
as well as for women.
00;24;12;11 - 00;24;14;40
Is that fair? Oh, absolutely.
00;24;14;40 - 00;24;17;42
And they are often the sources
00;24;17;42 - 00;24;22;14
of the most exciting ideas because
00;24;22;19 - 00;24;23;27
they see the economy
00;24;23;27 - 00;24;27;16
much more fully than do
00;24;27;21 - 00;24;30;35
Wall Street traders
who only see a small portion.
00;24;30;35 - 00;24;36;10
And they're only thinking
about a narrow realm of ideas. But..
00;24;36;10 - 00;24;40;29
people in the communities
that have been the most marginalized,
00;24;40;34 - 00;24;43;34
those are the ones who probably know
more than anybody.
00;24;43;41 - 00;24;46;41
They have to pay attention,
right, to survive.
00;24;46;41 - 00;24;49;09
So Rikki, thank you again
so much for sharing
00;24;49;09 - 00;24;53;03
all your wonderful words of wisdom
and resource with us,
00;24;53;08 - 00;24;56;49
I wonder if you have any closing remarks
that you'd like to share
00;24;56;49 - 00;25;01;45
with our listeners
about how to create an economy that I love
00;25;01;45 - 00;25;07;03
the way you put it, an economy
that's waged as life, not as war.
00;25;07;08 - 00;25;11;40
Yes, that word wage is really
00;25;11;45 - 00;25;13;37
an economic word, isn't it?
00;25;13;37 - 00;25;17;58
So a lot of the way this economy, current
economy we're living with
00;25;17;58 - 00;25;22;50
is waged as war, winning, being victors,
00;25;22;54 - 00;25;25;18
being money kings, if possible.
00;25;25;18 - 00;25;27;01
Right.
00;25;27;06 - 00;25;29;46
So how do we wage life?
00;25;29;46 - 00;25;34;24
And I think that we're only just now beginning
to think about that
00;25;34;28 - 00;25;38;49
So I think it's an ongoing conversation
that we're just going to have to keep
00;25;38;49 - 00;25;42;47
on talking and talking and talking about
and having brilliant ideas about.
00;25;42;52 - 00;25;48;19
I mean, you know, the idea of
00;25;48;24 - 00;25;54;05
cooperative money, for instance, is often
00;25;54;10 - 00;25;57;44
accredited to the
00;25;57;49 - 00;26;01;53
English weavers who created
the co-op movement that we all know.
00;26;01;57 - 00;26;04;30
But in fact,
00;26;04;30 - 00;26;07;12
there are organizations
00;26;07;12 - 00;26;13;01
that African women call sou-sou
for instance, mutual aid organizations,
00;26;13;01 - 00;26;17;13
which are very casual,
which are part of the informal economy
00;26;17;20 - 00;26;21;31
that is dismissed by so many.
00;26;21;35 - 00;26;26;09
It's been around for a long time.
00;26;26;14 - 00;26;32;20
So I think that going back to look at ways
00;26;32;24 - 00;26;35;46
people have thrived in civilization
00;26;35;51 - 00;26;38;19
outside of European and North
00;26;38;19 - 00;26;42;52
American civilizations
is really an important part of that
00;26;42;52 - 00;26;48;09
research of how you wage life,
how you make life
00;26;48;14 - 00;26;52;35
possible, and enable it to thrive happily.
00;26;52;42 - 00;26;54;30
Wouldn't that be lovely
00;26;54;34 - 00;26;57;36
Thank you so much again, Ricky,
for being with us today.
00;26;57;36 - 00;27;00;25
It's really been a pleasure
interviewing you.
00;27;00;25 - 00;27;03;05
And for our listeners, you can find links
00;27;03;05 - 00;27;07;00
to all of the resources we've talked
about during today's interview.
00;27;07;05 - 00;27;11;02
As well as a link
to Riane’s Real Wealth of Nations book
00;27;11;02 - 00;27;13;16
that was published in 2007
00;27;13;20 - 00;27;16;44
as well as a link to the Center
for Partnership Systems,
00;27;16;48 - 00;27;19;46
where you can find courses and resources
00;27;19;46 - 00;27;24;07
to help you dig deeper
into an understanding of Riane's
00;27;24;07 - 00;27;29;38
Domination Partnership Continuum
and the four cornerstones of childhood
00;27;29;38 - 00;27;33;05
and family relations, gender narratives
00;27;33;10 - 00;27;36;50
in stories and, of course, economics.
00;27;36;55 - 00;27;38;30
Thank you so much.
00;27;38;30 - 00;27;40;15
Thank you. It's been my pleasure.
00;27;40;15 - 00;27;41;03
All The way.