Hopes and Heroes with Robyn Baker

What happens when a young human rights advocate discovers the power of economics to transform society? In this episode of The Power of Partnership Podcast, Robyn Baker shares her journey from studying political science to reimagining economic systems that value caregiving, nature, and equity. Inspired by Riane Eisler’s partnership framework, Robyn explores how tools like the Social Wealth Index and community currencies can help communities thrive beyond the limits of GDP. Drawing on her international experiences in South Africa, the U.S., France, and Sweden, she reflects on the lessons her generation can bring to building a future rooted in care, connection, and shared responsibility. 

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WECAN (Women’s Earth and Climate Action Network International) 

The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future, Riane Eisler

The Real Wealth of Nations: Creating a Caring Economics, Riane Eisler

Nurturing Our Humanity: How Domination and Partnership Shape Our Brains, Lives, and Future, Riane Eisler

Sacred Pleasure: Sex, Myth, and the Politics of the Body, Riane Eisler

The Power of Partnership: Seven Relationships that will Change Your Life, Riane Eisler

Center for Partnership Systems

center@partnershipway.org

Resilience, Rising Appalachia

Chapters

• 0:20 Young Adult Reflections on Partnership Transformation
• 11:26 Exploring Education, Partnership, and Shifting Paradigms

Transcript

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Welcome
to the Power of Partnership podcast.

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I’m Riane Eisler, President of the Center
for Partnerships Systems.

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This podcast brings you
the voices from the partnership movement,

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people using partnership

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practices
to build a world that values caring

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nature and shared prosperity.

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The Power of Partnership podcast

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is hosted by Cherri Jacobs Pruitt,

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a Health Policy and Partnership scholar.

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Today, Cherri interviews, Robyn Baker,

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a master's student

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in International Economic Policy,

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on how we can mobilize a generation able

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to nurture a world that values caring

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nature and shared prosperity.

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And now on to today's POP podcast.

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Welcome,

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Robyn, to the Power of Partnership
podcast.

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You are so far
the youngest person that I've had

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the honor of interviewing
for the podcast series.

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And while I know that none of us can speak
on behalf of entire groups of people,

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I am really excited to get
your perspective as a young adult on

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the promise that a cultural transformation
to partnership holds for our world.

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Let's begin by you
sharing a bit about how you learned

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about Riane Eisler
and her domination partnership continuum.

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With pleasure and Cherri

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thank you for the honor to be here
and to have this conversation with you.

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I first discovered Riane's work
while at an internship

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with WECAN International that’s the Women's
Environmental Climate Action Network,

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and they focused primarily at the time

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on how we can rebuild from the
then very new COVID

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pandemic in a more socially
and environmentally just way.

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Specifically listening to the voices
and leadership of Indigenous women.

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And it was that network
that largely was inspired by Riane's

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discussion and introduction of terminology
such as partnership and domination.

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So just the paradigm
that that presented to me

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to be able to understand the work
and how truly we could come back

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more inclusive, more resilient
and more prosperous,

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and in the most inclusive way as possible
from the COVID 19 pandemic,

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which is an effort that we continue
to work towards, was incredibly

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inspiring for me, who had just graduated
from my bachelor's degree.

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And so I had the ability to fit into

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one of the then Center for Partnerships
Studies webinars.

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And what I heard in terms of the paradigm
and Riane's

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research it lit a spark,
what can I say here we are few years later

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and I remain to be very inspired
by her work and her research.

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So can you speak about those aspects

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of Riane's work that spoke
most deeply to you in terms of that

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hope that you felt
that it provided in terms of creating

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helping us rebuild to a more sustainable
and equitable world?

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With pleasure.

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So I'm a student in a degree
that's a mouthful sometimes.

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International economic policy.

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And within that I specialize in research
methods and agriculture,

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really interested in
looking at how so much of what

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our values and our society is
reflected at the farm level.

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But more

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broadly speaking, I call this
Robyn post-Riane

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because pre-Riane discovering
Raine Eisler’s work I was in a bachelor's

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in political science
and I was deeply passionate about

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working towards human rights law,
pursuing a career in human rights law.

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And here I am doing economics like why is
that I would really say it

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because in my undergraduate studies
I happened to take

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a gender economics course,
and then that largely started me

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thinking, wait a second,
we can create systems with our economics.

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We can there are alternative ways
of doing what we consider so normal

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with GDP that excludes
some of the most life giving work,

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whether it's done by nature
or it's done by unpaid

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unrecognized caregivers
and countless others.

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And so

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when I started to realize
the exciting potential that economics had

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in terms of creating truly far
reaching transformation in our values,

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in the way that we consider business
as usual,

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I then very timely discovered
Riane's work through the internship.

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I mentioned really trying to ask these
questions of how can we do things better?

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And I found a lot of answers to that
in Riane's The Real Wealth of Nations,

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which really finally
is a bit of a response

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poking back at Adam Smith's 1776
work The Wealth of Nations,

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in which he talks
about international trade, competitive

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advantage
these really classical economic theory.

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But Riane very aptly points out

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he also called nature an externality.

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Trees are an externality, even though
we depend on them for life giving oxygen.

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Who cooked Adam Smith's dinner?

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You know,
what was the fundamental

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caregiving household work

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that was tirelessly being done
without pay, without sick leave.

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And so that coupled
with my kind of budding

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economic imagination
after that gender economics course

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got me really excited about the potential
to do things differently.

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And of course, Riane was already calling
that in

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a very broad, systemic way.

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She set forth the four cornerstones
through her years of research,

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which are family and social relations,

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gender and roles and relations,
as well as economic and social relations

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and the narratives and languages
that is used to define that.

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How do we characterize
all of those three preceding cornerstones?

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And immediately I was able to recognize

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that a lot of movements in the past
had struggled to incorporate,

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all these four cornerstones.

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And it's kind of like you're
trying to sit on a chair

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with only three legs or two legs.

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Or at best, one, or at worst in that sense

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it's unfortunately very wobbly
and unstable

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because these are the four cornerstones

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that make up a culture
a civilization truly.

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And if we truly want to evolve ours
in a sustainable and substantive way,

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then we're going to have to need
to acknowledge all of those.

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And I was very lucky.

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I still don't know how this opportunity
ended

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up happening,
and I feel immensely grateful for it.

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But I was able to join the Center
for Partnership, then Studies, now Systems

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as a research assistant with the creation

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of a more holistic

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social wealth index,
which had been a pilot project

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at the CPS for a long time,
and one that I deeply resonated with.

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in the sense
that it was

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for the first time, quantitatively
asking ourselves, okay, nice

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we have these four cornerstones.

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How are we going to put them into practice
to challenge

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things like the GDP,
which is a bit more narrow?

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It's counting numbers, not reality.

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Like how can we better put reality into an
index that people can tangibly use more

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in research, for example in the academic
settings in which I exist in now

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or in policymaking
or how to measure countries improving.

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Because unfortunately and again,
with my love for agriculture

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we're currently measuring countries
progress in terms

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of how extractive and industrial
they become to our environment

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and the

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industries that do better
by the environment are less profitable.

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As someone who's passionate
about my generation's

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role and those to come

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in keeping a living

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healthy planet as best as we can.

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This just felt like the call
that I needed to respond to

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in the sense of dedicating my life
to continuing to try to make these other

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possibilities as concrete
and as manifested on this earth as we can.

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You know, a theme that's very common
in most of the interviews

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that I do for this Power of Partnership
podcast series

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is that once a person becomes

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aware of that entrenched
domination paradigm and that rigid

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ranking of the order of the world
and the othering where someone has to win,

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someone has to lose,
someone has to serve or be served,

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that once you recognize that,
you see it everywhere.

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And so in your ideal world,

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what would it take to help everyone

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recognize
that internalized domination paradigm

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so that we can really help everyone

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shift to a healthier way of
being for the sustainability of the world

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and for each of our own individual
and collective health and well-being.

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What a beautiful question.

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Thank you.

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I think we all

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we and our bodies, regardless
of how young we are

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in our memory remember trauma,

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you know, trauma certainly breeds trauma.

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It makes it very difficult
to break that cycle.

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And that's how domination systems
are so successful in their work.

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But we also never forget the time

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that we were embraced and supported,

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that we were ourselves authentically.

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And we not only survived,
but we felt like we could thrive

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where no matter how short that moment is.

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And so I do really just wish everyone,

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at least for 5 minutes on the earth,
could experience

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that kind of freedom,

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that weightlessness,
where you take a deep breath and it

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and it feels good and you feel full.

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Because if that happened,

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then despite the trauma, we would know

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deep down in our souls
and in our bodies that we can do better,

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that we can experience that again,
regardless

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of how much you've loved and lost it,
it was always a benchmark

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that you are capable of
feeling that emotion.

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You are able to do it and that you can't.

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It's like learning how to read.
No one can ever take that away from you.

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You can't hit a delete button on that.

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It's part of your education
as a human on the planet.

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And no one can ever take away
education from you.

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It's something you learn and you have.

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And it might change the
way you think forever. And so

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at least for listeners, you know, listen
to that song and do yourself a dance

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like or just try to find or discover what
that 5 minutes look like for yourself.

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Because

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no matter what shape it, comes through

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and it hurts no one and it brings you joy,

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then it's kind of reminding your body
and your mind what that compass is,

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where it should take us,
and what I just love about Riane's work

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is that she came
from such immense trauma and

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she's channeled that into

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discovering what brings herself
joy and seeing joy in others.

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And that's partnership.

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It's caregiving.

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It's prioritizing care.

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And that fundamentally

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helps us easier
to get to that state of joy and peace.

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Beautiful.

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So in thinking about helping young adults

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get in touch with that partnership
way of being.

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Yeah.

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What might be some resources or
just first steps that you would recommend

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to young adults
who are completely new to Riane's work

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and have never considered the domination
partnership continuum or social lens?

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I would say,
and I'm not sure if it's because I'm

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a bit of a bookworm myself,
but read it's really striking.

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But there's overwhelming amount
of information out there on social media,

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different people calling
for different changes in different ways.

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And I can certainly relate to feeling
a bit paralyzed.

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because, wow, there's so much to do.

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Like where to begin, how
it's very overwhelming to deal with that.

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And it's also incredibly demoralizing
because we're the ones being told like,

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good luck.

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You know, here’s a bunch.

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Here’s like a little basket
of existential problems.

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And good luck
trying to figure out how you are going

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to be the one to solve it
when everything about our capitalist

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economy and society tells us
otherwise and incentivizes the opposite.

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So it's a very difficult situation
to be in.

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And the beauty of reading, and
especially I recommend Riane's work

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The Real Wealth of Nations
is incredibly powerful for me,

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as well as Nurturing Our Humanity.

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And of course, Chalice
and the Blade followed by Sacred Pleasure,

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just to name a few of her many works.

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I think the beauty of reading
a book on systemic change

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and looking at case studies
that evidence her work

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is that you can start to distinguish,
okay, this worked, this didn't.

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And I understand
why in a way that feels more human,

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more like you can really take it
a bite by bite and chew and digest

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that information
from start to finish in a way that I think

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is way more in alignment
with our neurology as humans

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and less stimulation oriented, which can
then lead to burn out very quickly.

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And if you have a look I mean, that's
how most movements began.

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It was through pamphlets
like the Federalist Papers

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and then having conversations
about that in salon societies, whether that be

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here in Paris or across the United States
and in the early forms of revolution.

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So we can think of

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most movements throughout history
and identify a book

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or a series of writings
that started the wildfire.

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You are listening
to the Power of Partnership podcast.

00;15;35;14 - 00;15;38;39
If you would like us
to share your partnership story

00;15;38;44 - 00;15;43;16
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00;15;43;21 - 00;15;48;49
please contact us at center@partnershipway.org

00;15;48;54 - 00;15;52;18
And now back to today's episode.

00;15;52;18 - 00;15;57;21
So I know you have a fairly
international background, Robyn.

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I wonder if you can speak a bit
about your different experiences

00;16;02;35 - 00;16;07;37
and how they've shaped your view
of the world.

00;16;07;37 - 00;16;09;58

I was born and raised in South Africa.

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When I was around nine,
we moved to California

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and I continued to live my life there
until I was 17 and I came to France

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just to, I don't know, change things
up once again dramatically.

00;16;23;28 - 00;16;27;22
But yeah, so as you said it,
it's a pretty international background.

00;16;27;22 - 00;16;28;56
It's one I'm very lucky to have

00;16;29;04 - 00;16;32;44
But growing up in South Africa,

00;16;32;49 - 00;16;35;18
it was an absolute blast.

00;16;35;18 - 00;16;40;34
But I was exposed
to a lot of mass poverty.

00;16;40;38 - 00;16;42;23
I immediately had an immense

00;16;42;23 - 00;16;45;22
gratitude for being able to go to school

00;16;45;31 - 00;16;48;13
after driving past
a slum and seeing children

00;16;48;13 - 00;16;50;14
playing on a Monday morning.

00;16;50;14 - 00;16;55;54
You know, I was going to school and I couldn't understand why they weren't able to.

00;16;55;59 - 00;16;58;41
And it quickly got me thinking about,

00;16;58;41 - 00;17;03;04
okay, we're starting to see in this system
we have some haves and and we have some have nots.

00;17;03;04 - 00;17;05;23
But of course,
my time in the United States

00;17;05;23 - 00;17;09;18
gave me a immense opportunities,
mostly for extracurricular activities

00;17;09;18 - 00;17;13;19
that really showed me
how to live life so fully

00;17;13;21 - 00;17;17;48
and without the same concerns
that we have in South Africa regarding

00;17;17;53 - 00;17;20;52
personal safety. And

00;17;20;54 - 00;17;27;11
in a way, I was suddenly in an environment
where it seemed more equal.

00;17;27;15 - 00;17;29;18
We have more public services.

00;17;29;18 - 00;17;32;18
Everyone is guaranteed an education,

00;17;32;18 - 00;17;34;50
but as you get older,
you start to notice the cracks

00;17;34;50 - 00;17;39;19
in that system, in that vision,
that American dream.

00;17;39;24 - 00;17;43;43
And in many ways, my decision to come to
France was in pursuit

00;17;43;43 - 00;17;48;49
of a good quality higher education 
that was still affordable for parents.

00;17;48;54 - 00;17;50;28
And so coming.

00;17;50;28 - 00;17;53;59
Here, I mean, my living expenses
and tuition was less

00;17;53;59 - 00;17;57;20
than tuition at any of the universities
that I was accepted to,

00;17;57;24 - 00;18;02;42
and that would have been tuition
alone, regardless of student living and

00;18;02;47 - 00;18;03;46
residence costs.

00;18;03;46 - 00;18;06;51
And food plans that I find so common
in the United States.

00;18;06;51 - 00;18;11;54
And so it was really interesting
to be able to go to, you know,

00;18;11;59 - 00;18;17;16
the now second ranked university
in the world for political science

00;18;17;21 - 00;18;22;23
and to do so at the fraction of the cost
for a university in the United States.

00;18;22;28 - 00;18;23;42
And I'm really grateful for that.

00;18;23;42 - 00;18;27;49
It pushed me to learn French.

00;18;27;54 - 00;18;29;42
And I was able to do a

00;18;29;42 - 00;18;34;06
It's mandatory in fact, it's
mandatory in Europe to do one year abroad

00;18;34;15 - 00;18;38;00
in another country and another university
within the European Union.

00;18;38;05 - 00;18;39;31
And so that brought me to Sweden.

00;18;39;31 - 00;18;44;24
And just the physical experience
of getting to be living so close to nature

00;18;44;24 - 00;18;46;59
and to experience such gender equality

00;18;46;59 - 00;18;48;52
unlike anything
I'd ever experienced before,

00;18;48;52 - 00;18;52;36
even I consider myself to be incredibly
privileged and to be treated with,

00;18;52;41 - 00;18;55;43
you know, generally
a lot of respect and equality there.

00;18;55;43 - 00;18;57;00
It was just next level.

00;18;57;00 - 00;18;59;18
I didn't face those little everyday

00;18;59;18 - 00;19;02;22
microaggressions
that you sometimes encounter as a woman.

00;19;02;22 - 00;19;04;01
And so

00;19;04;06 - 00;19;05;16
it was really interesting.

00;19;05;16 - 00;19;08;51
And I think that kind of also
has for the earlier comment

00;19;08;56 - 00;19;13;31
set my new compass
very North and Riane explains why

00;19;13;36 - 00;19;18;46
she explains how it's those countries
that are performing the best economically

00;19;18;51 - 00;19;23;15
because they value caregiving so well
and that has been shown to yield

00;19;23;15 - 00;19;26;48
the best productivity and innovation

00;19;26;53 - 00;19;29;28
that this economy strives to achieve.

00;19;29;28 - 00;19;33;30
So in this Scandinavian countries,
you're referring to Sweden and.

00;19;33;30 - 00;19;38;17
Exactly, yes, Denmark, Norway, Finland.

00;19;38;22 - 00;19;41;18
So really interesting to have had
that lived experience and then to find

00;19;41;18 - 00;19;46;18
that reflected in Riane's work
and her findings as well.

00;19;46;23 - 00;19;49;20
Where do you see yourself

00;19;49;20 - 00;19;53;54
post formal education?

00;19;53;59 - 00;19;57;40
I would love to see myself
in a researcher capacity.

00;19;57;44 - 00;20;00;28
So at the moment
I'm doing a thesis project

00;20;00;28 - 00;20;02;57
looking at digital community currencies

00;20;02;57 - 00;20;06;16
as an alternative to official currency.

00;20;06;20 - 00;20;11;27
What if rural communities who are very
vulnerable to suddenly having a lack of,

00;20;11;32 - 00;20;16;25
you know, liquid cash
which is necessary to afford their basic

00;20;16;30 - 00;20;20;09
food, water, shelter, firewood,

00;20;20;14 - 00;20;23;45
you know,
and when the kind of fuel and oil

00;20;23;45 - 00;20;28;48
that keeps those engines and gears turning
and that being liquid cash runs dry

00;20;28;53 - 00;20;32;20
and there's a bank run or a trade
policy change, you know, immediately

00;20;32;20 - 00;20;35;55
they're unable to keep their gears turning
when otherwise, you know,

00;20;35;55 - 00;20;37;52
there are still vegetables
growing in the garden.

00;20;37;52 - 00;20;42;09
There is still water
and the goods are still there, but

00;20;42;09 - 00;20;47;41
they're no longer able to be circulated
through that little local economy anymore.

00;20;47;46 - 00;20;50;15
Can we provide them with a community
currency?

00;20;50;15 - 00;20;53;27
Can something be used
for only local transactions?

00;20;53;27 - 00;20;57;05
And then the official currency
is used for non-local transactions,

00;20;57;05 - 00;21;01;57
which is usually of a more serious nature,
such as sending your children to school,

00;21;02;02 - 00;21;06;54
business registration, investing
in that new farm asset that can help you

00;21;06;59 - 00;21;12;32
grind your grain instead of having
to always take that elsewhere to a mill.

00;21;12;37 - 00;21;13;11
It's very

00;21;13;11 - 00;21;16;14
exciting
to start to see these things happening,

00;21;16;14 - 00;21;19;23
and I think we're going to need a quite
a good team of researchers

00;21;19;23 - 00;21;24;06
in my generation
and I hope to be one of them in analyzing

00;21;24;11 - 00;21;29;06
whether or not that's truly helping people
and bringing about a positive impact,

00;21;29;11 - 00;21;32;37
because of course
the research that's being done

00;21;32;41 - 00;21;36;54
is largely funded by people
who want a certain outcome.

00;21;37;06 - 00;21;40;14
So I I'd like to start to challenge
that kind of trend.

00;21;40;14 - 00;21;44;24
that I started to observe
in agricultural research after my degree.

00;21;44;26 - 00;21;48;34
But I think that can be very more broadly
described as development,

00;21;48;34 - 00;21;50;40
economic research

00;21;50;45 - 00;21;53;41
and how we can shift that paradigm away

00;21;53;41 - 00;21;57;50
from an industrialist sense of success

00;21;57;55 - 00;22;01;34
to a bit more of a post industrialist
definition

00;22;01;34 - 00;22;06;57
of what it means to co-exist
and to thrive on the planet.

00;22;07;02 - 00;22;10;16
Robyn well, it's been so enjoyable
speaking with you today,

00;22;10;16 - 00;22;13;21
and I'm so excited
that you're doing the work you're doing

00;22;13;21 - 00;22;16;21
and have taken the time to meet with us
today.

00;22;16;33 - 00;22;20;14
Before we close,
I wonder if you have any final words

00;22;20;14 - 00;22;24;54
for our listeners about creating a world
that truly values caring nature

00;22;24;54 - 00;22;28;55
and shared prosperity,
and especially for those youth

00;22;28;55 - 00;22;33;46
and young adults who are new to Riane
Eisler's work have never heard of it

00;22;33;50 - 00;22;37;53
and certainly have never had any exposure
to the domination

00;22;37;58 - 00;22;42;20
partnership social lens continuum.

00;22;42;25 - 00;22;43;22
Thank you so much.

00;22;43;22 - 00;22;46;45
This has truly been
one of my most favorite conversations,

00;22;46;45 - 00;22;50;42
I think in my 24 years of life.

00;22;50;46 - 00;22;53;59
And it's mostly because I can just feel

00;22;53;59 - 00;22;57;13
how we're able to connect
to a broader audience.

00;22;57;13 - 00;22;59;42
And that is what you're doing
in this work.

00;22;59;42 - 00;23;02;59
And thank you for that. A final word.

00;23;03;11 - 00;23;08;41
I would say it's just more of a cautionary
tale on hope and heroes.

00;23;08;46 - 00;23;09;56
I think

00;23;09;56 - 00;23;13;19
it's so easy to be hopeful.

00;23;13;19 - 00;23;16;10
I try to be hopeful.

00;23;16;10 - 00;23;20;33
However, we kind of
are always given this hero narrative

00;23;20;38 - 00;23;25;00
that I seem to notice
and observe a lot regardless of your age,

00;23;25;00 - 00;23;29;19
but especially perhaps
with the rise of Marvel in our generation.

00;23;29;23 - 00;23;35;09
you know, people who observe the exact
same problems and we then end up

00;23;35;14 - 00;23;41;26
just waiting for the hero to show up
and to come along, and then he fixes it.

00;23;41;37 - 00;23;44;40
And mostly it's
he sometimes now I'm noticing

00;23;44;40 - 00;23;48;26
there are she heroes,
which is really nice.

00;23;48;31 - 00;23;51;30
However, it sends the same message.

00;23;51;43 - 00;23;55;32
Sometimes we see heroes work together
and that's nice as well.

00;23;55;37 - 00;23;58;04
But they are a minority

00;23;58;04 - 00;24;00;07
and it's important.

00;24;00;07 - 00;24;04;52
And we've seen powerfully
through the COVID 19 pandemic

00;24;04;56 - 00;24;09;27
and through the increasing conflict
that's happening on Earth,

00;24;09;32 - 00;24;12;31
that it's people it’s individuals

00;24;12;31 - 00;24;15;55
who make a cataclysmic difference
in one another's lives.

00;24;15;55 - 00;24;21;55
When we choose compassion and we choose
action over watching, over standing by.

00;24;22;00 - 00;24;24;50
And so, you know, it makes sense.

00;24;24;50 - 00;24;27;18
It's how we evolved, it’s
how we’re in 2023.

00;24;27;18 - 00;24;30;47
And if we want
to see a thirty twenty three,

00;24;30;52 - 00;24;31;13
which

00;24;31;13 - 00;24;35;04
I'm sure we will eventually in some way,
shape or form, and we want to do it

00;24;35;04 - 00;24;39;21
in the way that you describe,
then that's going to require

00;24;39;26 - 00;24;42;38
full participation.

00;24;42;43 - 00;24;46;01
And there's a lot of

00;24;46;05 - 00;24;51;44
caution, a lot of uncertainty
on how to take that action.

00;24;51;49 - 00;24;54;13
And I think it's important
to understand that

00;24;54;13 - 00;24;57;29
we never know what side of history
we'll be on.

00;24;57;34 - 00;25;03;38
We never know if our action is right
in the moment, how it's going to transact.

00;25;03;43 - 00;25;06;34
But if you are helping another person

00;25;06;34 - 00;25;12;16
and if you are expressing love
and compassion through that action,

00;25;12;21 - 00;25;17;40
then at least you know that
it was on the right side of yourself.

00;25;17;45 - 00;25;22;29
And it's not about what
that hero represents

00;25;22;34 - 00;25;26;39
in a more social or political way,
but it's you as an individual,

00;25;26;44 - 00;25;30;10
being the best hero that you can be.

00;25;30;14 - 00;25;31;10
And then you're going to find

00;25;31;10 - 00;25;35;10
that your calling, well,
will manifest itself

00;25;35;15 - 00;25;39;09
in a way that feels empowering
and fulfilling for you.

00;25;39;14 - 00;25;42;43
And if you feel anything otherwise, then

00;25;42;48 - 00;25;44;02
it's not for you.

00;25;44;02 - 00;25;46;35
But at least you feel something.

00;25;46;35 - 00;25;48;55
And it's not just hope,

00;25;48;55 - 00;25;52;13
because you can't point to hope
and show that it made a difference.

00;25;52;13 - 00;25;53;17
Unfortunately.

00;25;53;17 - 00;25;58;36
So it's almost like not are you a hero,
but what kind of a hero are you?

00;25;58;41 - 00;26;01;24
Beautiful.

00;26;01;24 - 00;26;03;12
Beautiful. Yes.