Unscrewing Economics with Rickey Gard Diamond

In “Unscrewing Economics” host Cherri Jacobs Pruitt interviews award winning author and journalist Rickey Gard Diamond on money, politics, and how Partnership-based economic systems are spreading throughout the world. Included in this episode is the importance of understanding our personal economic stories, a summary of how economics has driven politics in the United States, and how its roots in the domination configuration ensure that those at the top of the economic pyramid keep all profits but trickle all costs to those beneath them.  The show notes for “Unscrewing Economics” include links to resources to learn more and connect to the Partnership economic movement! 

The Real Wealth of Nation, Riane Eisler

Screwnomics, Rickey Gard Diamond

An Economy of Our Own

Ms. Magazine’s Women Unscrewing Economics series with Rickey Gard Diamond

Riane Eisler’s Social Wealth Economic Indicators (Social Wealth Index)

Invest in Better (Values Aligned Investing)

If Women Counted, A New Feminist Economists, Marilyn Waring

International Association of Feminist Economists (IAFFE)

The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future, Riane Eisler

The Power of Partnership: Seven Relationships that will Change Your Life, Riane Eisler

Center for Partnership Systems

center@partnershipway.org

Resilience, Rising Appalachia

Chapters

• 0:09 Money, Politics, and Partnership-Based Cultural Change
• 11:58 ESG Investments and Transforming the Economy

Transcript

00;00;20;15 - 00;00;23;38
Welcome
to the Power of Partnership podcast.

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I'm Riane Eisler, President of the Center
for Partnership Systems.

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This podcast brings
you voices from the partnership

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movement,
people using partnership practices

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to build a world that values caring

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nature and shared prosperity.

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The Power of Partnership podcast is hosted

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by Cherri Jacobs Pruitt,

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a health policy and Partnership scholar.

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Today Cherri interviews award winning
journalist and writer Rickey Gard Diamond...

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on money, politics, and partnership based 
cultural change.

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Now on to the POP podcast, showing how we can
create an economic system and structure 

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that values caring for each other, 
and the planet.

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Welcome, Ricky,
and thank you so much for joining us

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for the Power of Partnership podcast.

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Oh, it's my pleasure to be here.

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As you know, Riane describes economics
as being one of the four cornerstones

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that's really critical
in how every society is formed.

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So, you know, economics
along with childhood and family relations,

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the way we look at gender
issues of gender, and then, of course,

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the narratives and stories
that are inherent within a society.

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So why do you think
that lack of accessibility

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related to economics exists?

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Well, I think I'm a I'm a good example

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because when you talk
about the importance of narrative,

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my own story, discovering

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my own story was actually

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it was right under my nose,
and yet I never dared

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even think about it to myself.

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I had begun.

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My radical education in economics began

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as a single mother with three kids.

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I was also going to school.

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I don't know how I did it all,
but a lot of women do and I was doing it.

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And yet I couldn't make my budget work.

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And here I had an extra check.

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I was working full time.

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I had an extra check of child
support of $25 a week

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for my three kids,
and I couldn't make my budget work.

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And I thought there was
something wrong with me

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and I was so ashamed
when I had to go to the welfare office

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to try to get some government help.

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And I did get government help.

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But I also met other women there who were

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mostly women of color, who were

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I could see in,

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you know, worse shape than I was.

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And yet and then that inspired me

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to go into the

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the war on poverty.

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I became an editor of a statewide
paper here

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covering all kinds of government

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policy issues and related to poverty.

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And yet,

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if you had asked me about economic issues,
if you had used that word,

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the economy, I wouldn't have been able
to speak about it.

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I never saw the connection
between my own story and that larger story

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that mostly gets reported in

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terms of what Wall
Street says is happening.

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I never connected the two,
and I think that's true for so many people

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because that conversation
has been dominated

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very much by a particular class

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of a particular gender,
of a particular race,

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which has dominated that realm of

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money and for a long time. So

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they're not....

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Wall Street continues to be a place that

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is not open to

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terribly open to to women
and to people of color.

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It’s purpose, the overall strategy

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for their narrative is winning.

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Winning requires a good many losers.

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And that's exactly what we see

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happening with growing inequality
in our country.

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And can you talk about how 

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the story of the economy translates
into our politics?

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I guess I began to think about this
when I....

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when I saw

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the Nobel lecture of Milton Friedman.

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All of a sudden

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what had been called voodoo economics

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by the first George Bush

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was suddenly Reaganomics and was,
you know, very, very popular.

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and, you know,

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All of a sudden,

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this free market economy was

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the only choice you had.

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And I wondered how that came about.

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And I noticed that Milton Friedman,

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who had just gotten the Nobel Prize,
which by the way, is not

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the original Nobel
part of the original Nobel Prize,

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it was added by as a kind of memorial

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by the Bank of Sweden.

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So it's kind of an insider award

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that lifted economics up

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to the high level of physics and

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Milton Friedman, who was

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Reaganomics, most favorite economist

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from the Chicago school,

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presented economics
as if it were a force of nature,

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as if it were physics, and wanted to

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remove any kind of

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humane qualities

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other than it was
numbers and graphs and and physics

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and just a matter of momentum and force

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rather than of humans
making certain decisions that

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disqualified some people and

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and made others winners.

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When I saw that, I wondered,
why did he do that? Why?

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Because the previous economists
were Keynesian economists

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and were more humane and considered..

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Mr. Keynes decided that

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if there was a conflict
between renters and landlords

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that it was better
for the government to favor the renters

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because they were the real engine
of the productive economy.

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And all of that was reversed
when the free marketers came in to power.

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So I wonder why was that?

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Why did they kind of
put themselves up on a pedestal

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like that
and exalt themselves to the,

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you know, being a force of nature
and not accountable to

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anyone and

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I learned that there was

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a lot of action
happening at the Chicago school,

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the University
of Chicago, having to do with

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women's

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saying, wait a minute, all the books,
you're showing us,

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All of the stories you're telling us
have been created by a particular class

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of a particular gender,
of a particular race.

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And maybe there are, you know,

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wider realms that we could be looking at.

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And so I think it was kind of a reaction
to people

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demanding in the

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in the sixties and seventies, demanding

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some answers,
some accountability from their government.

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And so physics came out in the closet and

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became economics.

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What is working? What are what are you seeing
in terms of models of an economic system

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that is truly partnership based?

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or moving to a partnership

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based economics system? Yes,

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I would say that

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I'll point to some other women
authors that I know of

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who are talking about some of these
big changes, Marjorie Micheli

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and talking about cooperatives, worker
ownership

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of Georgia Kelly
talking about taking seminars

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at Mondragon,
which is a cooperative corporation

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that is an umbrella for something
like 93 cooperatives

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that when the 2008 crash happened,
did not layoff

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all kinds of workers
because they were the owners

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and they were involved
in making their own decisions.

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And so

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they survived

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the crash without all the human misery

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that we experienced here
in the United States.

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I can talk about Ellen Brown and her work

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in exposing the nature of currency as a...

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creation of debt
and public banking and public money

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being another alternative
that is more partnership

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based than an exchange based rather than

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debt based.

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So talking about new ways
of doing business

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and new ways of thinking about currency

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and debt, new ways of thinking about

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caring for the

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environment
and making that part of the measurements.

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I mean, Riane’s work with Nancy Fulbrae

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at UMass.

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the social wealth
economic indicators,

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which also measures

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the caring of community
and the caring in the environment

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that happens all around us,
and including that and also showing

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how caring about those things,
including that in your measurements. Also

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revealed the

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good outcome that comes from that caring.

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You actually have a healthier economic
results when you invest in those things.

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I just did an interview

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with a woman named Janine Firpo, who,

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along with another woman named Ellen
Rimmer, has

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an organization called Invest for Better.

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And because women often

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often have money, inherit

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money, have generational wealth,

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and yet they hand it over to other money
managers,

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Janine is encouraging women,

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Janine and Ellen,
and are encouraging women to

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to study up and to become familiar.

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And they've even created what they call

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investment learning circles for women

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to kind of create peer learning circles,

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to educate one another, we learn well that way.

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And really talking about

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something called ESG

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ESG

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investments are environmental. People..

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look at the environmental policies
of a company,

00;12;28;40 - 00;12;33;42
the sustainability of that company
and its context,

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the effect that it has on the communities
they serve

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and the manner

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in which they govern their organization.

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And this is

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then she calls it
values aligned investing.

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There are more people talking
about this now.

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And in fact,
it's become something of a political hot

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button issue because there are those oil
and gas industries

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that see this as very, very dangerous.

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And so you'll hear a lot about something
called woke capitalism,

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which Texas and Florida
have actually legislated against,

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so that pension plans in Texas

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are not allowed to invest in

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these ESG approved kinds of

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funds, which is interesting to think about. 
So...

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it's a really important movement
and it has its limits.

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Investment has its limits,
but it could make a huge difference

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in what sorts of companies are

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deemed

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reliable for investments

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and where we want our economy to go.

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Rikki, are there any models
that we're seeing from other countries

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around shifting economics to value

00;14;03;17 - 00;14;07;20
the well-being of their nations?

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Yes. In fact,
there are many and New Zealand

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being one, Canada being another, France
having new measures that look

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at the value of the social wealth

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that we create with caring. And

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I have to also credit

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the wonderful economist from New Zealand,

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Marilyn Waring,
who talked about this with her book,

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If Women Counted,

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which kind of brought up
that whole subject.

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She became a New Zealand parliamentarian

00;14;47;46 - 00;14;51;23
when she was just a young musician,
starting out,

00;14;51;38 - 00;14;54;49
one of the first women
to be elected to Parliament

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and learned about how budgets were done
and how the GDP was done.

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And she said, Well, that's ridiculous.

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And they said, Oh, well,

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we know it is kind of goofy,
but it's the way it's always been done.

00;15;08;14 - 00;15;12;55
Nobody was questioning it,
but she did a great job of doing that

00;15;12;55 - 00;15;15;36
and actually bringing it to the public
conversation.

00;15;15;36 - 00;15;17;22
What Canada has been doing,

00;15;17;22 - 00;15;24;19
which is the first step in any of this,
is measuring what isn’t now measured.

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And then, you know,
you've got more pieces to the puzzle

00;15;29;26 - 00;15;34;22
to put together
and to connect and see various trends,

00;15;34;26 - 00;15;37;46
which is the value
of these new measurements.

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having to do with

00;15;39;37 - 00;15;42;26
so many experiments, for instance,
being done with

00;15;42;26 - 00;15;44;55
grants that come to families,

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which was an experiment in Canada.

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And then looking at
what effect did it have

00;15;51;16 - 00;15;54;52
on the families,
did they stop going to work?

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Did they
how did they do when they went to school?

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And then connecting those dots
and seeing that,

00;16;00;59 - 00;16;04;17
well, having some

00;16;04;22 - 00;16;05;25
what do I want to say?

00;16;05;25 - 00;16;13;01
Some regularity,
some relaxation of financial terror,

00;16;13;06 - 00;16;18;35
with a reliable income
is actually a helpful thing.

00;16;18;35 - 00;16;22;16
And you can see it
when you look at the school grades,

00;16;22;21 - 00;16;26;15
when you look at the work participation,
when you look at education

00;16;26;15 - 00;16;31;46
levels being raised as a result of this,
you can see the good outcomes.

00;16;31;51 - 00;16;34;38
That isn't possible unless you measure it.

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And I have to say that the United States

00;16;36;34 - 00;16;41;49
has been particularly successful
in resisting that effort.

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It just has never

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happened here and it needs to.

00;16;47;31 - 00;16;50;43
There is an international association

00;16;50;43 - 00;16;55;42
of feminist economists
that I just met in South Africa

00;16;55;42 - 00;17;01;12
that Nancy Fulbrae was actually part
of founding and

00;17;01;16 - 00;17;04;06
gaining more influence,

00;17;04;06 - 00;17;08;39
although I have to say that in my latest
column,

00;17;08;44 - 00;17;11;40
I noted that

00;17;11;40 - 00;17;15;55
we talk about STEM education,
which is science,

00;17;15;59 - 00;17;18;11
technology,

00;17;18;11 - 00;17;20;22
engineering and math

00;17;20;22 - 00;17;23;35
male dominated fields, that women

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have made a concerted effort to enter.

00;17;27;14 - 00;17;32;09
And I said that really
it should be STEEM, not STEM

00;17;32;14 - 00;17;34;27
economics should be that

00;17;34;27 - 00;17;39;50
second E in there,
because in fact, women are making more

00;17;39;54 - 00;17;44;12
inroads
in engineering than they are in economics.

00;17;44;17 - 00;17;50;30
And so even though more women
economists are being listened to,

00;17;50;35 - 00;17;54;06
we have a need for more younger

00;17;54;10 - 00;18;00;12
millennial economists who are taking a new
look at the economy and helping us

00;18;00;12 - 00;18;03;50
to change the story to one that wages life.

00;18;03;54 - 00;18;07;37
let's start talking a bit about your work
directly,

00;18;07;44 - 00;18;12;19
specifically An Economy Of Our Own
and the other coalition

00;18;12;19 - 00;18;18;16
building work you're doing
and writings on economic issues.

00;18;18;20 - 00;18;20;26
Yes, Yes.

00;18;20;26 - 00;18;23;54
Well, when I wrote Screwnomics,

00;18;23;58 - 00;18;27;55
I proposed a column to

00;18;27;59 - 00;18;30;38
Ms. magazine and I now have a series

00;18;30;38 - 00;18;34;46
that Ms. magazine called Women
Unscrewing Screwnomics.

00;18;34;46 - 00;18;38;47
Now Screwnomics was my name for something

00;18;38;47 - 00;18;44;42
I saw all around me
that never seemed to be said out loud.

00;18;44;46 - 00;18;47;39
But is the economic theory that women

00;18;47;39 - 00;18;51;24
should always work for less
or even better for free?

00;18;51;24 - 00;18;52;38
Right.

00;18;52;38 - 00;18;56;01
So I named it Screwnomics,
which my mother would not have been

00;18;56;01 - 00;18;57;52
very pleased by that name.

00;18;57;52 - 00;19;02;10
But that is an expression that you hear
people use.

00;19;02;10 - 00;19;04;03
Well, I've just been screwed.

00;19;04;03 - 00;19;07;39
Well, when you look at the

00;19;07;44 - 00;19;08;58
as a person

00;19;08;58 - 00;19;12;15
interested in language,
which is me very much,

00;19;12;19 - 00;19;16;03
it's not a pleasant allegory at all.

00;19;16;08 - 00;19;20;02
What it's saying is to be
female is to be less

00;19;20;02 - 00;19;25;02
than and to be taken to be used.

00;19;25;07 - 00;19;27;24
Whether you give permission or not.

00;19;27;24 - 00;19;29;33
And that is not pleasant.

00;19;29;33 - 00;19;33;41
And in fact, it's
traumatic for women to think about.

00;19;33;41 - 00;19;37;42
I should give a trigger warning
when I talk about this.

00;19;37;42 - 00;19;43;00
But the wonderful thing about language
is that by changing it to women,

00;19;43;00 - 00;19;46;57
unscrewing screwnomics, all of a sudden

00;19;47;01 - 00;19;50;01
you see carpenters at work, right?

00;19;50;05 - 00;19;51;15
Building things.

00;19;51;15 - 00;19;53;50
And I think that is what women are doing.

00;19;53;50 - 00;19;58;16
They're transforming
what has been a disadvantage

00;19;58;21 - 00;20;02;23
into an advantage because

00;20;02;27 - 00;20;07;01
women's values
tend to be aligned with collaboration,

00;20;07;15 - 00;20;10;27
with networking, with connection.

00;20;11;08 - 00;20;14;56
Screwnomics,
my book was really encouraging women

00;20;14;56 - 00;20;18;57
to talk to other women
about their own economic story,

00;20;18;57 - 00;20;22;21
which is often traumatic, often
very difficult.

00;20;22;26 - 00;20;25;43
There's a lot of shame
connected to talking about money.

00;20;25;47 - 00;20;31;17
And yet, if we begin to do that,
we learn we're not alone.

00;20;31;22 - 00;20;34;22
We're not alone. There are more of us

00;20;34;34 - 00;20;40;04
who are debtors than those who are

00;20;40;09 - 00;20;42;52
money landlords, let's call them.

00;20;42;52 - 00;20;49;03
And women together can

00;20;49;08 - 00;20;52;55
co-create wonderful new solutions,

00;20;53;00 - 00;20;56;09
which is part of
what an economy of our own is about.

00;20;56;09 - 00;20;58;31
It's an organization, a coalition.

00;20;58;31 - 00;21;02;23
which is based on Virginia Woolf's

00;21;02;27 - 00;21;07;01
famous essay about what a woman needs,
she needs two things.

00;21;07;01 - 00;21;10;01
Virginia
Woolf said she wrote this in 1920.

00;21;10;02 - 00;21;14;54
She needs an income
and she needs a room of her own.

00;21;14;59 - 00;21;19;13
And an economy of our own changes
the pronoun

00;21;19;13 - 00;21;24;54
because when women are in a room
of her own and talking about things,

00;21;24;54 - 00;21;28;54
they always are more inclusive
and we are too.

00;21;28;59 - 00;21;32;58
So an economy of our own
is about an economy that serves

00;21;33;09 - 00;21;37;29
all of us better and engages women.

00;21;37;29 - 00;21;42;59
It gives women a safe place
to talk together about economic issues.

00;21;43;04 - 00;21;45;39
Riane has been

00;21;45;44 - 00;21;46;47
a wonderful

00;21;46;47 - 00;21;50;23
conversationalist
in a couple of our zooms of our own.

00;21;50;23 - 00;21;51;28
We call them.

00;21;51;28 - 00;21;54;13
but Riane has talked about

00;21;54;13 - 00;21;56;45
what we call the Invisible Woman,

00;21;56;45 - 00;21;59;48
the woman who just doesn't show up
anywhere, in the GDP.

00;21;59;48 - 00;22;04;32
None of our caring
shows up anywhere in the GDP and also

00;22;04;32 - 00;22;07;47
in creating a safe digital world

00;22;08;01 - 00;22;11;21
that is more inclusive for all of us.

00;22;11;26 - 00;22;14;26
So we have about

00;22;14;26 - 00;22;17;26
a dozen zooms of our own conversations,

00;22;17;33 - 00;22;22;12
and each of those conversations
has an accompanying

00;22;22;17 - 00;22;25;15
for further learning resource

00;22;25;15 - 00;22;29;07
and they're all free because we

00;22;29;07 - 00;22;34;31
we want to make all of our information
freely available.

00;22;34;36 - 00;22;38;33
And we're beginning to develop something
that we're calling we're stealing Ellen

00;22;38;33 - 00;22;43;11
Remmer and Janine Firpo’s ideas
of that investment learning circle,

00;22;43;16 - 00;22;46;59
which we will
host on our website, I hope,

00;22;46;59 - 00;22;49;58
We have a survey on our website,
and we'd love to know

00;22;49;58 - 00;22;54;56
what women say
they most want to learn about because,

00;22;55;05 - 00;22;58;43

we kind of got two things on our agenda.

00;22;58;43 - 00;23;01;47
On the one hand, we want women to know

00;23;01;56 - 00;23;05;16
how to do
well in the economy that we have.

00;23;05;21 - 00;23;08;26
How can you survive
in this present economy?

00;23;08;26 - 00;23;12;02
How can you thrive
in this present economy?

00;23;12;07 - 00;23;16;54
And but also
how can we transform this economy

00;23;16;58 - 00;23;22;10
so that it isn't traumatic for so many
so that it isn't so unequal

00;23;22;10 - 00;23;26;58
and so that our environment
is not destroyed

00;23;27;03 - 00;23;30;29
and our families are not torn apart

00;23;30;29 - 00;23;35;57
by economic issues
and political issues that

00;23;36;02 - 00;23;38;01
the whole

00;23;38;01 - 00;23;40;14
phenomenon of scarcity

00;23;40;14 - 00;23;44;44
too little for too many is

00;23;44;49 - 00;23;47;18
puts all of is at odds with one another.

00;23;47;18 - 00;23;49;06
That's the way it operates.

00;23;49;06 - 00;23;51;34
We don't have to operate that way.

00;23;51;39 - 00;23;52;37
Wonderful.

00;23;52;37 - 00;23;56;09
And as we move,
hopefully towards a more partnership

00;23;56;09 - 00;24;01;31
oriented society related to gender
and we start seeing more single

00;24;01;31 - 00;24;06;53
headed households by men
or by nonbinary individuals,

00;24;06;53 - 00;24;10;56
I assume all of those resources
are going to be just as valuable for them

00;24;10;56 - 00;24;12;11
as well as for women.

00;24;12;11 - 00;24;14;40
Is that fair? Oh, absolutely.

00;24;14;40 - 00;24;17;42
And they are often the sources

00;24;17;42 - 00;24;22;14
of the most exciting ideas because

00;24;22;19 - 00;24;23;27
they see the economy

00;24;23;27 - 00;24;27;16
much more fully than do

00;24;27;21 - 00;24;30;35
Wall Street traders
who only see a small portion.

00;24;30;35 - 00;24;36;10
And they're only thinking
about a narrow realm of ideas. But..

00;24;36;10 - 00;24;40;29
people in the communities
that have been the most marginalized,

00;24;40;34 - 00;24;43;34
those are the ones who probably know
more than anybody.

00;24;43;41 - 00;24;46;41
They have to pay attention,
right, to survive.

00;24;46;41 - 00;24;49;09
So Rikki, thank you again
so much for sharing

00;24;49;09 - 00;24;53;03
all your wonderful words of wisdom
and resource with us,

00;24;53;08 - 00;24;56;49
I wonder if you have any closing remarks
that you'd like to share

00;24;56;49 - 00;25;01;45
with our listeners
about how to create an economy that I love

00;25;01;45 - 00;25;07;03
the way you put it, an economy
that's waged as life, not as war.

00;25;07;08 - 00;25;11;40
Yes, that word wage is really

00;25;11;45 - 00;25;13;37
an economic word, isn't it?

00;25;13;37 - 00;25;17;58
So a lot of the way this economy, current
economy we're living with

00;25;17;58 - 00;25;22;50
is waged as war, winning, being victors,

00;25;22;54 - 00;25;25;18
being money kings, if possible.

00;25;25;18 - 00;25;27;01
Right.

00;25;27;06 - 00;25;29;46
So how do we wage life?

00;25;29;46 - 00;25;34;24
And I think that we're only just now beginning
to think about that

00;25;34;28 - 00;25;38;49
So I think it's an ongoing conversation
that we're just going to have to keep

00;25;38;49 - 00;25;42;47
on talking and talking and talking about
and having brilliant ideas about.

00;25;42;52 - 00;25;48;19
I mean, you know, the idea of

00;25;48;24 - 00;25;54;05
cooperative money, for instance, is often

00;25;54;10 - 00;25;57;44
accredited to the

00;25;57;49 - 00;26;01;53
English weavers who created
the co-op movement that we all know.

00;26;01;57 - 00;26;04;30
But in fact,

00;26;04;30 - 00;26;07;12
there are organizations

00;26;07;12 - 00;26;13;01
that African women call sou-sou
for instance, mutual aid organizations,

00;26;13;01 - 00;26;17;13
which are very casual,
which are part of the informal economy

00;26;17;20 - 00;26;21;31
that is dismissed by so many.

00;26;21;35 - 00;26;26;09
It's been around for a long time.

00;26;26;14 - 00;26;32;20
So I think that going back to look at ways

00;26;32;24 - 00;26;35;46
people have thrived in civilization

00;26;35;51 - 00;26;38;19
outside of European and North

00;26;38;19 - 00;26;42;52
American civilizations
is really an important part of that

00;26;42;52 - 00;26;48;09
research of how you wage life,
how you make life

00;26;48;14 - 00;26;52;35
possible, and enable it to thrive happily.

00;26;52;42 - 00;26;54;30
Wouldn't that be lovely

00;26;54;34 - 00;26;57;36
Thank you so much again, Ricky,
for being with us today.

00;26;57;36 - 00;27;00;25
It's really been a pleasure
interviewing you.

00;27;00;25 - 00;27;03;05
And for our listeners, you can find links

00;27;03;05 - 00;27;07;00
to all of the resources we've talked
about during today's interview.

00;27;07;05 - 00;27;11;02
As well as a link
to Riane’s Real Wealth of Nations book

00;27;11;02 - 00;27;13;16
that was published in 2007

00;27;13;20 - 00;27;16;44
as well as a link to the Center
for Partnership Systems,

00;27;16;48 - 00;27;19;46
where you can find courses and resources

00;27;19;46 - 00;27;24;07
to help you dig deeper
into an understanding of Riane's

00;27;24;07 - 00;27;29;38
Domination Partnership Continuum
and the four cornerstones of childhood

00;27;29;38 - 00;27;33;05
and family relations, gender narratives

00;27;33;10 - 00;27;36;50
in stories and, of course, economics.

00;27;36;55 - 00;27;38;30
Thank you so much.

00;27;38;30 - 00;27;40;15
Thank you. It's been my pleasure.

00;27;40;15 - 00;27;41;03
All The way.