Heartificial Intelligence with John C. Havens

In this episode, host Cherri Jacobs Pruitt interviews John C Havens on the intersection between technology and culture; and how our orientation on the Domination - Partnership social lens continuum impacts this intersection. This thought provoking discussion touches on knowing your values, consent in data usage, combating isolation, and resources such as the Center for Partnership Systems’ Partnership Toolkit. John C. Havens is a writer, speaker, and activist, and Sustainability Practice Lead for the IEEE Standards Association, and Founding Executive Director of The IEEE Global Initiative on Ethics of Autonomous and Intelligent Systems. 

Center for Partnership Systems’ Partnership Toolkit

Center for Partnership Learning Center

Social Wealth Economic Indicators

Planet Positive 2030, Strong Sustainability by Design

The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future, Riane Eisler

The Power of Partnership: Seven Relationships that will Change Your Life, Riane Eisler

center@partnershipway.org

Resilience, Rising Appalachia

Chapters

• 0:10 The Intersection of Technology and Culture
• 12:39 Exploring Technology and Values
• 19:57 Parenting Struggles, Finding Kindness in Nature

Transcript

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Welcome
to the Power of Partnership podcast.

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I’m Riane Eisler, President of the Center
for Partnerships Systems.

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This podcast brings you
the voices from the partnership movement,

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people using partnership

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practices
to build a world that values caring

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nature and shared prosperity.

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The Power of Partnership podcast

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is hosted by Cherri Jacobs Pruitt,

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a Health Policy and Partnerships scholar.

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Today, Cherri interviews John C.

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Havens on the intersection of technology
and culture.

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In addition to being a prolific writer,
speaker and activist,

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John is the Sustainability Practice

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Lead for the IEEE Standards

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Association And founding director

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of the IEEE Global Initiative

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on Ethics of Autonomous
and Intelligent Systems

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And now on to the POP podcast

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showing how we can use technology

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to meet the needs
of people and the planet.

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All right. Well, welcome, John.

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I'd love to ask you to start by sharing
bit about your work with the IEEE

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and your writings and your journey
that's bringing you to today?

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Sure.

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Thank you.

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The shorthand version of it
is the connection between technology

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and wellbeing.

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And when I say wellbeing, I mean both
human and ecological flourishing.

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So I've written three books,
the first was called Tactical Transparency

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about social media and how to be open
about what you do online

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And this is back,
that book came out in 2009

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So it was early on
in the social media realm.

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The second book was called
Hacking Happiness.

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Why Your Personal Data Counts
and How Tracking it Can Change the World.

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And the my most recent book is called
Heartificial Intelligence. Loving the puns,

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Easy writing.  Heartificial Intelligence

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Embracing Humanity to Maximize Machines.

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And my background before that was
I was a professional actor.

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For years I played guitar and I'll play
harmonica later as a musician.

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And did business development

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PR was an EVP of a

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top ten PR firm. I did business development for a podcasting
company, actually.

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And so a lot of my work that's led me to,

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IEEE, the world's largest
engineering and technology association

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is a combination of thought,
leadership, writing and speaking

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community development oriented

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So that's a long answer,
except my work then led me to

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to IEEE where I have since 2016

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have led their largest body of work
on artificial intelligence and ethics.

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And that led to a big document called
Ethically Aligned Design that's inspired

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multiple OECD/UNESCO groups around the world
for their A.I.

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principles, the largest suite of A.I. ethics
oriented standards. The,

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IEEE, 7000 series I helped inspire
was founding chair for two of them.

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How do
you concretely use Riane's partnership

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domination continuum throughout your work?

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Yeah, Riane’s partnership

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versus domination continuum,
especially in her recent toolkit.

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Riane and the authors, the different

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team members have put it together,
just did a beautiful job.

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I think initially meeting people like,
what is this?

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What do these words even mean?

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Domination versus partnership.

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And then right away, her toolkit,

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her indicators that statistically provide
metrics along the lines of what

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GDP does for economics are brilliant
in terms of caregiving economics.

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So those are the two main tools
that I will let people know about,

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but I try to let them understand
after saying, read

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Riane to say, because she says is
the best is partnership.

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The opportunities to unpack that word

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one way or the other,

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you know, you're going to be communicating
with someone and coming to an agreement

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of some kind for any
at least most senses of a partnership.

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And then when you really dig down
into like,

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what would caregiving

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look like with the partnership,
what does community look like?

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or here are
these unintended consequences.

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So with engineers, a lot of times
what I would say is where in the system

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is the funding for the technology
you're building coming from,

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Because a lot of times
engineers are working on

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not necessarily the very, very beginning
of the design of something they're working

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on, something that's got the green light
and the money to back it.

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and all that goes back to what
a beautiful and necessary opportunity

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from the top of any design of policy

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or technology to say, hold
on, let's think about what Riane has said.

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What would this technology look like?

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And the toolkit
that she's put out helps with this.

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If you've started from a place of saying
how would this tool

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be used for partnership
versus domination and it’s great.

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If people are like,
I don't know what that means.

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Well, read Riane’s work, go to the toolkit,

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you could say, well,

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how do we know
we're going to be helping the planet?

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Well, We're not just going to use water
from an aquifer

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and make sure that we don't harm
whatever via emissions or something.

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We're going to do X
to replenish that water,

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working with the community
and all the stakeholders

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So are you seeing any best practices
in terms of the work you're doing with

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IEEE members to help them understand

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this need to base technology

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on the ultimate
well-being of humans and the planet?

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So in terms of work that I'm doing in

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IEEE that I would consider
best practices, hopefully

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and thank you for asking,
is I help lead a program called

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Planet Positive 2030.

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We just released
a paper called Strong Sustainability

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by Design, and the subtitle
is Prioritizing Ecological

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and Human Flourishing for Technology
Based Solutions.

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So what we're hoping
that this document does

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is like Riane’s methodology
and logic in general

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is, first of all, just to come from a lens

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of the term strong sustainability.

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It's a theory
that came out of about 20 years ago.

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I think

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when people use the word sustainability,
they have different working definitions.

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Oftentimes there's one from the United
Nations Brundtland Commission,

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which essentially I'm going to paraphrase,
is making sure

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there's enough resources for ourselves
and those that come after.

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And that's not the best paraphrase,
but it's a wonderful definition

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because it moves from just being like,
how do we have enough for

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right now in ten years
to sort of saying generationally,

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how are we ensuring these things?

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Then this a term called regenerative,
That's really kind of like

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biomimicry oriented
both for humans and the planet.

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How do you make sure that resources
are not just not harmed

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but maintained
and that's part of our planet positive,

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that word positive
we actually mean it's not just neutral.

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You build technology.

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No, I'm giving back to the planet
through circular design.

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What have you. Anyway,

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What strong
sustainability has as a theory, however,

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which I would just say
is like the bedrock of or I call it ground

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truth is an individual or a community
or a company or a government or a country,

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the center circle is economics, right?

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I got to make food. I got to buy food,
I got to eat food.

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I got to earn money.

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Right now at a household level, community
government, country level,

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those economics
are run in a very specific way, mainly because

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who's elected to run the government,
etc., the circle around that.

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So picture that first circle is economics.

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The next circle is the societal,

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which usually is cultural,
which is certainly political.

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But are we talking about the US
and democracy or China?

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And you know, in America,
we call them an authoritarian government.

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They don't necessarily
call themselves authoritarian.

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But the point is, is that
they're those two next circles

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would be very different
based on regionality

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for any of those two inner circles
that you and I could come up with,

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what about an indigenous community?

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What about Global South? Great.

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The circle surrounding them all

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is the environment is the planet.

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And why this actually makes it easier
for any technological design.

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And this is what we're trying
to convince people best practices with

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our paper is as Engineers there’s a term
called boundary conditions.

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It's kind of like a scope.

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And you say to engineers, use the science

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of like the ISSC, the United Nations Sixth

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Synthesis Report
that says these are the things

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we have to focus on in terms of emissions
or the Montreal biodiversity framework.

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Here are some really good stats
and meaty data

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about maintaining nature, right?

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Nature, all of nature
there’s the emissions, it's nature.

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And then recognize
that strong sustainability

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means at the outset of design.

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That's the lot in there.
I understand that.

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But the point is, is that that's
where you start from. In your writings,

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you make a very compelling case
that for many people

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they're not thinking about values
in the actual work they're doing.

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They're thinking about values
in their home life and their relationships

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but not necessarily
bringing that to the actual work.

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And so can you speak a little bit
about that specific to technology

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My book, Heartificial Intelligence
Embracing Our Humanity to Maximize

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Machines. The key question in it is
how will machines

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know what we value
if we don't know ourselves?

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So before I talk,
now I’m going to play harmonica

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and I'm doing this as part of my answer.

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But here we go. Enjoy. Hopefully.

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Beautiful. Well, thank you. It's a treat.

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Thank you. Sure.

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So, two books ago,
I read this book called Hacking Happiness,

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which was really about the intersection

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of technology and human physiology.

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And so one of the reasons

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I just played harmonica,
besides the fact that I just love it, is

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there's a physical reaction to music

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now when taste enters into it, you,
whoever

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listens, maybe they like blues,
maybe they don't.

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But right away the modality
of how we're communicating changed.

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But the technology that's making us

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have a Zoom call
and someone watching this later,

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they're watching
and then all of a sudden they're like, Oh,

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someone’s playing harmonica.

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So it's a whole different part of one's
physical senses that come into play there.

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And physiologically
the sound enters in their ear

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and it starts to deal with the chemicals

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in their body, things, dopamine.

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A lot of people
call that happiness hormones.

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And I bring this up

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because that book Hacking Happiness
is what really led me to understand

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the deep connection
to one's values, lived values,

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and then the physical interaction
with technology

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and how I think a lot of times

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people don't recognize that technology

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doesn't
have to be like the new thing, like

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Chat GPT where they go like, Hey,
everyone, this is technology.

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You're using technology now.

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the lived experience with technology,

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when it first enters your life,
it just does.

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And then when you have apps.

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Now, when I wrote this book,

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Hacking Happiness years ago
was focused on the quantified self,

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that term is kind of morphed into just,
you know, the Apple Watch

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and people are so used
to monitoring their heart rate,

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but you can monitor things like your
your stress level,

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measuring your heart rate or your galvanic

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skin temperature,
your eyes, their pupils dilate

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and you can use it while you watch Netflix
to give ads at the exact right moment.

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Certainly when you go into the metaverse,
which is a term coined by Neal

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Stephenson, the author of Snow Crash,
not Mark Zuckerberg.

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But the point being in that realm,
how we're going to interact

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with people becomes very specific.

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And as a rule, humans are very
easy to trick or manipulate.

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So the
second book, Heartificial Intelligence,

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I worked with a wonderful woman named Peggy
Kern,

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who is an expert in positive psychology.

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She worked with Martin Seligman,
who wrote the book

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Flourish, which is kind of the basis
for the empirical science

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behind positive psychology.

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And we emulated this wonderful guy's

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research and just had about 50 people
in which we were thrilled at

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because it was for two weeks
and getting people to do anything is hard.

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But for two weeks

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we said with using very simple
online sliders in an app

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at the beginning of these two weeks,

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give yourself a life satisfaction
score in general, one through ten.

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And then we said, for these ten values,
very common words.

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And this  psychologist named Joseph
Schwartz, who uses these terms family

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environment work on a 0
to 10 at the beginning of this process.

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Just say this is how important this is.

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So if being outside
is critically important

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to every part of your life,
then make it a ten.

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Then what we asked is at the end
of every day we send an email, Hey,

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how did you live today? 0 to 10.

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Did you go outside?

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I didn’t zero.

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Okay, no judgment. It's just a report.

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Then at the end of the two weeks,
you aggregate and you say for an average

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two weeks of my life,

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like no one died or I didn't change my job
or moving, I’m not on a vacation.

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So a kind of typical two weeks.

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What happened?

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And we had a 95%
ratio of people sent back.

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Of those 50% who said their long term

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flourishing or their life satisfaction
went up from their initial score,

00;15;36;01 - 00;15;41;32
usually by at least two or three points
just by tracking their values,

00;15;41;37 - 00;15;45;26
because then they realized, you know,
I said at the beginning of this test

00;15;45;31 - 00;15;50;07
that the environment was like an eight,
but if this is an average two weeks,

00;15;50;11 - 00;15;53;55
I scored a two,
so I should be outside every day.

00;15;54;00 - 00;15;56;40
And I'm gonna take my work calls outside.

00;15;56;40 - 00;15;58;51
And this was like, Oh,

00;15;58;51 - 00;16;02;11
well, you didn't
need a piece of technology to do that.

00;16;02;11 - 00;16;05;26
You could have done all this.
What we've done in the back of a napkin.

00;16;05;31 - 00;16;07;38
So the tracking, the

00;16;07;38 - 00;16;12;30
values is something that and the reason
I asked the question in the book,

00;16;12;30 - 00;16;15;41
how machines know what we value
if we don't know ourselves, is

00;16;15;46 - 00;16;19;32
we are being tracked
and influenced through very nuanced,

00;16;19;32 - 00;16;24;40
articulated behavioral economics
to mainly buy things.

00;16;24;45 - 00;16;29;02
It's about purpose driven sense of
how do we have partnership?

00;16;29;15 - 00;16;33;43
And those are values that I talk about
in the book in terms of my job.

00;16;33;43 - 00;16;39;04
Now, a lot of what I try to do is to say,
as beautiful as AI systems can be

00;16;39;04 - 00;16;43;22
and any anything that you say
with AI systems, how do we ensure

00;16;43;22 - 00;16;46;38
that there's genuine consent for data

00;16;46;43 - 00;16;49;03
and the people recognize
your data is worth tracking

00;16;49;03 - 00;16;54;51
because you are worth tracking your values
if you know what they are,

00;16;54;55 - 00;16;58;11
there is that fact
I think I mentioned earlier.

00;16;58;11 - 00;17;01;15
But if not, isolation, loneliness,

00;17;01;15 - 00;17;05;49
suicide is at pandemic levels
around the world right now.

00;17;05;54 - 00;17;09;06
And where there's different AI tools
being used to help with those things,

00;17;09;06 - 00;17;11;03
there's a lot of them
and they're doing wonderful work,

00;17;11;03 - 00;17;15;06
like, for instance, soldiers
and PTSD coming back from war.

00;17;15;06 - 00;17;17;06
They speak to chat bots

00;17;17;06 - 00;17;21;07
and that's sort of the way to get out
that the horrible stuff in their head

00;17;21;07 - 00;17;24;07
and then they can talk to humans
like these are methodologies

00;17;24;07 - 00;17;28;15
that have been shown to be used
in those work environments for soldiers.

00;17;28;15 - 00;17;34;48
And so thank you to our military and thank
to the people that have done that. But

00;17;34;53 - 00;17;36;41
where isolation really is

00;17;36;41 - 00;17;40;39
most easy is solved here,
you ready for it.

00;17;40;43 - 00;17;42;56
You have, people be with other people.

00;17;42;56 - 00;17;45;13
It's not that hard.

00;17;45;13 - 00;17;49;04
And so partnership
and what Riane talked about,

00;17;49;09 - 00;17;51;09
it's like, do we want to prioritize

00;17;51;09 - 00;17;54;31
the economics, continue to prioritize
the economics and the dominance

00;17;54;31 - 00;17;59;13
where logic would say we need to get
these tool out, it is tools that will help people.

00;17;59;18 - 00;18;01;39
And I don't mean to mock those voices

00;18;01;39 - 00;18;04;54
because a lot of times they're very well-intended

00;18;04;59 - 00;18;07;26
but to use tools

00;18;07;26 - 00;18;10;08
to work so hard and spend
billions of dollars for the money goes

00;18;10;08 - 00;18;14;56
to a very small, tiny portion of people
who make the tools and control the data.

00;18;15;01 - 00;18;16;00
A

00;18;16;00 - 00;18;24;01
But B is to say, Hey, society,
if the metrics of success were partnership

00;18;24;06 - 00;18;25;50
and eradicating the

00;18;25;50 - 00;18;29;12
loneliness and isolation
leading to suicide,

00;18;29;17 - 00;18;32;19
the tougher way to ask this question is
are we okay?

00;18;32;19 - 00;18;34;33
As a society with with suicide?

00;18;34;33 - 00;18;37;24
And I don't mean denying people's choice.

00;18;37;24 - 00;18;41;20
I mean fundamentally from teens up,

00;18;41;25 - 00;18;45;15
people age eight or nine,
not feeling that they have connection

00;18;45;15 - 00;18;49;49
for themselves to others or to nature
to the point where they remove themselves,

00;18;49;54 - 00;18;54;38
and also loneliness and isolation
along with suicide.

00;18;54;43 - 00;18;57;08
the job that we all should have

00;18;57;08 - 00;19;00;45
on our resume and be equipped for is

00;19;00;50 - 00;19;03;50
helping others avoid isolation

00;19;04;00 - 00;19;08;24
So thank you so much, John, for sharing
all wisdom and experiences with us.

00;19;08;24 - 00;19;12;29
I feel like we could probably do four
or five more episodes

00;19;12;29 - 00;19;16;07
and still just be touching
the tip of the iceberg

00;19;16;12 - 00;19;19;12
around
all of the issues related to technology.

00;19;19;12 - 00;19;23;42
So I really appreciate you
sharing your thoughts today.

00;19;23;47 - 00;19;26;47
I wonder if you have any final
thoughts that you'd like to share

00;19;26;47 - 00;19;32;07
with our listeners on how we can use
technology in a heartificial way.

00;19;32;07 - 00;19;35;54
You know, in a way that's really coming
from the heart and incorporating our

00;19;35;59 - 00;19;41;26
values to meet
the real needs of people and the planet.

00;19;41;31 - 00;19;41;44
Sure.

00;19;41;44 - 00;19;43;12
Well, thank you again, Cherri,

00;19;43;12 - 00;19;47;31
to you, as always,
to the amazing Riane Eisler and her team.

00;19;47;36 - 00;19;50;04
Thanks to IEEE where I work, as

00;19;50;04 - 00;19;53;04
I mentioned, I'm talking as John.

00;19;53;11 - 00;19;56;56
So my answer is, if people have questions
about IEEE, let me know

00;19;57;01 - 00;20;00;37
you can find me on LinkedIn or Twitter
or what used to be called Twitter.

00;20;00;42 - 00;20;04;53
John C. Havens on Twitter,
I still like calling it Twitter.

00;20;04;57 - 00;20;07;54
And I guess my ultimate message would be

00;20;07;54 - 00;20;11;04
it's really hard to be kind

00;20;11;09 - 00;20;11;49
to oneself

00;20;11;49 - 00;20;14;02
sometimes.  I struggle.

00;20;14;02 - 00;20;18;55
I'm 54, in my life, I'm a parent
and my kids are older now.

00;20;18;55 - 00;20;21;08
But like you're always recognizing, huh?

00;20;21;08 - 00;20;23;01
As a parent,

00;20;23;01 - 00;20;25;55
these two people have looked to me
for advice

00;20;25;55 - 00;20;30;14
and counsel for a long time,
and I, I want to be helpful with them.

00;20;30;14 - 00;20;33;23
But when I'm struggling with things
I've never struggled with before, how

00;20;33;32 - 00;20;34;13
I help them.

00;20;34;13 - 00;20;39;29
Well, so as a parent, this kindness
sort of comes when you're like,

00;20;39;34 - 00;20;40;40
okay, I'm learning as

00;20;40;40 - 00;20;44;50
much from those people
as to become adults, the beautiful humans

00;20;44;50 - 00;20;48;01
of their own, as I've wanted to imbue them

00;20;48;01 - 00;20;52;05
with my wisdom such as it is.

00;20;52;09 - 00;20;54;30
The last couple of years
I've had this gift of working

00;20;54;30 - 00;20;58;15
in sustainability because really
a lot of times kindness these days

00;20;58;20 - 00;21;01;51
most deeply comes to me
when I'm in nature.

00;21;01;56 - 00;21;05;20
And I was at my local pool the other day,

00;21;05;25 - 00;21;10;07
which I've been taking great pleasure in
and just sat and clouds came in.

00;21;10;07 - 00;21;13;40
There was a storm
that came in was breathtaking,

00;21;13;44 - 00;21;18;36
just to see the majesty of our planet,
just to take in and have the wonderful,

00;21;18;36 - 00;21;22;44
like classic sense of the word
awe come in.

00;21;22;44 - 00;21;28;01
And my grandmother sang a hymn, How Great
Thou Art, which a lot of people know,

00;21;28;06 - 00;21;31;06
And there's a verse that says, What is it?

00;21;31;18 - 00;21;32;14
I see the stars,

00;21;32;14 - 00;21;36;33
I hear the rolling thunder, thy power
throughout the universe displayed

00;21;36;38 - 00;21;39;56
and the chorus is and sings my soul, my

00;21;40;09 - 00;21;43;29
my Savior, God to the how great thou art

00;21;43;34 - 00;21;48;48
But for me, being in nature
and just being in nature

00;21;48;53 - 00;21;53;58
brings a kindness
that really has gotten into such depths.

00;21;53;58 - 00;21;57;26
For me to then say, okay,

00;21;57;30 - 00;22;01;47
I feel like nature in one sense
kind of accepts me

00;22;01;52 - 00;22;04;51
even as broken as I feel.

00;22;04;59 - 00;22;08;11
And then to take that kindness

00;22;08;11 - 00;22;12;43
or acceptance
and then say, I think I have worth

00;22;12;48 - 00;22;15;06
and I have all these people
who say they love me.

00;22;15;06 - 00;22;16;15
So that's a big deal.

00;22;16;15 - 00;22;18;30
So then gratitude comes into play,

00;22;18;30 - 00;22;22;07
and these are the tools
that I've equipped myself with to

00;22;22;07 - 00;22;26;32
then say, as I mentioned earlier in
the interview, how do you avoid isolation?

00;22;26;37 - 00;22;29;55
And then how do you try to be
with other people and bring kindness

00;22;29;55 - 00;22;32;08
And this is where Riane’s

00;22;32;13 - 00;22;34;44
work I cannot tell you how much

00;22;34;44 - 00;22;37;24
joy her work has brought me,
because even saying

00;22;37;24 - 00;22;40;24
the phrase partnership versus domination,

00;22;40;37 - 00;22;44;00
I lose this like getting on a call
and I'm going to convince someone

00;22;44;00 - 00;22;48;22
with my wisdom to kind of going

00;22;48;27 - 00;22;52;14
I just want to be here

00;22;52;19 - 00;22;55;00
if I feel okay about who I am

00;22;55;00 - 00;22;58;20
and there's a kindness for myself, then
I get it on the call and I'm like, What?

00;22;58;25 - 00;23;00;13
Try to listen more.

00;23;00;13 - 00;23;01;54
Not always good listening.

00;23;01;54 - 00;23;03;13
I mean, thank you
because I just did an interview.

00;23;03;13 - 00;23;08;08
But the point being,
hearing people and then saying,

00;23;08;13 - 00;23;12;51
how do I take that wisdom of that,
those clouds coming in and those storms?

00;23;12;56 - 00;23;15;27
And the message that I think Mother Nature

00;23;15;27 - 00;23;18;47
is giving us, which is, I love you,

00;23;18;52 - 00;23;22;55
but I'm also your Mom,
and I got to do what I got to do.

00;23;23;00 - 00;23;27;26
And what I'm doing right now
is getting hot because I love you guys.

00;23;27;31 - 00;23;30;42
But you're doing this

00;23;30;47 - 00;23;36;04
and the partnership model

00;23;36;09 - 00;23;37;44
is the only

00;23;37;44 - 00;23;41;37
is the only way
that we're actually going to avoid

00;23;41;42 - 00;23;44;11
climate change

00;23;44;11 - 00;23;48;25
issues that are already here,
that all of the sciences

00;23;48;30 - 00;23;51;50
we have right now
today, people in Pakistan

00;23;51;50 - 00;23;55;36
with the floods, people in Greece
with the fires, we're going to say

00;23;55;36 - 00;23;59;50
that climate's good to go or more and more

00;23;59;55 - 00;24;04;05
without trying to be judgmental
about climate denying all this.

00;24;04;05 - 00;24;07;09
Just to say this is
this is a really hard time emotionally.

00;24;07;09 - 00;24;09;15
It's going to be for the entire world

00;24;09;15 - 00;24;11;53
people who aren't already struggling
with climate disaster,

00;24;11;53 - 00;24;15;14
because this is the ultimate
question of humanity.

00;24;15;14 - 00;24;18;07
Will we be here in 10, 20, 30 years?

00;24;18;07 - 00;24;22;17
Which for me means how my kids going to be
doing, how my grandkids are going to be?

00;24;22;22 - 00;24;25;42
and then I care about this beautiful
planet

00;24;25;47 - 00;24;29;24
and it's hard to care.

00;24;29;28 - 00;24;32;28
It's easier to say,

00;24;32;30 - 00;24;33;36
be competitive and all that.

00;24;33;36 - 00;24;35;41
It's easier to take these narratives.

00;24;35;41 - 00;24;40;10
And so my final point is to say, anybody,
if you haven't read The Chalice

00;24;40;10 - 00;24;41;22
and the Blade,

00;24;41;22 - 00;24;43;42
if you don't know
about the technology tool kit,

00;24;43;42 - 00;24;48;37
if you don't know the gift of Riane Eisler
and the work that she's done with various

00;24;48;37 - 00;24;53;04
thought leaders throughout the time
that she's been on this planet,

00;24;53;09 - 00;24;56;20
it's just challenging for me

00;24;56;20 - 00;25;00;14
to say at what depths you will be helped

00;25;00;19 - 00;25;03;19
in your work
and in your life when you get to know

00;25;03;19 - 00;25;07;01
how to actually try to even live

00;25;07;05 - 00;25;09;22
this idea of partnership
versus domination.

00;25;09;22 - 00;25;12;35
It's a
it starts up here and in here your heart.

00;25;12;40 - 00;25;15;16
And then daily,

00;25;15;16 - 00;25;19;01
I often will think of Riane literally five
or six times a week, minimal.

00;25;19;01 - 00;25;24;07
And her idea of caregiving
versus competition because we need care.

00;25;24;12 - 00;25;28;08
We don't necessarily
need every new technology that comes down

00;25;28;08 - 00;25;31;59
the pike that those things can be great
for helping with care.

00;25;32;03 - 00;25;36;33
What we need as humans is connection
and care and in partnership

00;25;36;46 - 00;25;40;45
that is actually the need so that we keep
this beautiful planet safe.

00;25;40;50 - 00;25;44;52
And thanks again, Riane, for the honor
and to be a part of your

00;25;44;57 - 00;25;49;43
ecosystem and do the best that I can
to bring your wisdom to others.

00;25;49;48 - 00;25;51;39
Beautiful.

00;25;51;39 - 00;25;55;22
Thank you again so much, John,
for joining us.

00;25;55;24 - 00;25;56;33
My pleasure.

00;25;56;33 - 00;26;01;19
For our listeners, I just want to let
you know that all of the resources

00;26;01;19 - 00;26;06;09
that John has mentioned
will be included in the show notes

00;26;06;14 - 00;26;09;14
for today's episode

00;26;09;15 - 00;26;13;09
We’ll also include a link
to the Technology toolkit

00;26;13;09 - 00;26;16;28
through the Center
for Partnerships Systems website,

00;26;16;32 - 00;26;22;00
as well as all of the other Center
for Partnerships Systems,

00;26;22;05 - 00;26;26;22
courses and resources
to help you go deeper into understanding

00;26;26;22 - 00;26;30;01
her work, including a link
to the Chalice and the Blade.