Hopes and Heroes with Robyn Baker

In this episode of the Power of Partnership podcast, host Cherri Jacobs Pruitt engages in a conversation with Robyn Baker, a young adult student of International Economic Policy in Paris, France. This episode includes discussion related to Riane Eisler’s social wealth index as a wholistic and life-sustaining alternative to gross domestic or national product for measuring economic success. 

WECAN (Women’s Earth and Climate Action Network International) 

The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future, Riane Eisler

The Real Wealth of Nations: Creating a Caring Economics, Riane Eisler

Nurturing Our Humanity: How Domination and Partnership Shape Our Brains, Lives, and Future, Riane Eisler

Sacred Pleasure: Sex, Myth, and the Politics of the Body, Riane Eisler

The Power of Partnership: Seven Relationships that will Change Your Life, Riane Eisler

Center for Partnership Systems

center@partnershipway.org

Resilience, Rising Appalachia

Chapters

• 0:20 Young Adult Reflections on Partnership Transformation
• 11:26 Exploring Education, Partnership, and Shifting Paradigms

Transcript

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Welcome
to the Power of Partnership podcast.

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I’m Riane Eisler, President of the Center
for Partnerships Systems.

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This podcast brings you
the voices from the partnership movement,

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people using partnership

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practices
to build a world that values caring

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nature and shared prosperity.

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The Power of Partnership podcast

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is hosted by Cherri Jacobs Pruitt,

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a Health Policy and Partnership scholar.

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Today, Cherri interviews, Robyn Baker,

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a master's student

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in International Economic Policy,

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on how we can mobilize a generation able

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to nurture a world that values caring

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nature and shared prosperity.

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And now on to today's POP podcast.

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Welcome,

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Robyn, to the Power of Partnership
podcast.

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You are so far
the youngest person that I've had

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the honor of interviewing
for the podcast series.

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And while I know that none of us can speak
on behalf of entire groups of people,

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I am really excited to get
your perspective as a young adult on

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the promise that a cultural transformation
to partnership holds for our world.

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Let's begin by you
sharing a bit about how you learned

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about Riane Eisler
and her domination partnership continuum.

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With pleasure and Cherri

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thank you for the honor to be here
and to have this conversation with you.

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I first discovered Riane's work
while at an internship

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with WECAN International that’s the Women's
Environmental Climate Action Network,

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and they focused primarily at the time

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on how we can rebuild from the
then very new COVID

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pandemic in a more socially
and environmentally just way.

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Specifically listening to the voices
and leadership of Indigenous women.

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And it was that network
that largely was inspired by Riane's

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discussion and introduction of terminology
such as partnership and domination.

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So just the paradigm
that that presented to me

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to be able to understand the work
and how truly we could come back

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more inclusive, more resilient
and more prosperous,

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and in the most inclusive way as possible
from the COVID 19 pandemic,

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which is an effort that we continue
to work towards, was incredibly

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inspiring for me, who had just graduated
from my bachelor's degree.

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And so I had the ability to fit into

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one of the then Center for Partnerships
Studies webinars.

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And what I heard in terms of the paradigm
and Riane's

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research it lit a spark,
what can I say here we are few years later

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and I remain to be very inspired
by her work and her research.

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So can you speak about those aspects

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of Riane's work that spoke
most deeply to you in terms of that

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hope that you felt
that it provided in terms of creating

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helping us rebuild to a more sustainable
and equitable world?

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With pleasure.

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So I'm a student in a degree
that's a mouthful sometimes.

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International economic policy.

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And within that I specialize in research
methods and agriculture,

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really interested in
looking at how so much of what

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our values and our society is
reflected at the farm level.

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But more

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broadly speaking, I call this
Robyn post-Riane

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because pre-Riane discovering
Raine Eisler’s work I was in a bachelor's

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in political science
and I was deeply passionate about

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working towards human rights law,
pursuing a career in human rights law.

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And here I am doing economics like why is
that I would really say it

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because in my undergraduate studies
I happened to take

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a gender economics course,
and then that largely started me

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thinking, wait a second,
we can create systems with our economics.

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We can there are alternative ways
of doing what we consider so normal

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with GDP that excludes
some of the most life giving work,

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whether it's done by nature
or it's done by unpaid

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unrecognized caregivers
and countless others.

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And so

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when I started to realize
the exciting potential that economics had

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in terms of creating truly far
reaching transformation in our values,

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in the way that we consider business
as usual,

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I then very timely discovered
Riane's work through the internship.

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I mentioned really trying to ask these
questions of how can we do things better?

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And I found a lot of answers to that
in Riane's The Real Wealth of Nations,

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which really finally
is a bit of a response

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poking back at Adam Smith's 1776
work The Wealth of Nations,

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in which he talks
about international trade, competitive

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advantage
these really classical economic theory.

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But Riane very aptly points out

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he also called nature an externality.

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Trees are an externality, even though
we depend on them for life giving oxygen.

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Who cooked Adam Smith's dinner?

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You know,
what was the fundamental

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caregiving household work

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that was tirelessly being done
without pay, without sick leave.

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And so that coupled
with my kind of budding

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economic imagination
after that gender economics course

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got me really excited about the potential
to do things differently.

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And of course, Riane was already calling
that in

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a very broad, systemic way.

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She set forth the four cornerstones
through her years of research,

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which are family and social relations,

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gender and roles and relations,
as well as economic and social relations

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and the narratives and languages
that is used to define that.

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How do we characterize
all of those three preceding cornerstones?

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And immediately I was able to recognize

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that a lot of movements in the past
had struggled to incorporate,

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all these four cornerstones.

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And it's kind of like you're
trying to sit on a chair

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with only three legs or two legs.

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Or at best, one, or at worst in that sense

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it's unfortunately very wobbly
and unstable

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because these are the four cornerstones

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that make up a culture
a civilization truly.

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And if we truly want to evolve ours
in a sustainable and substantive way,

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then we're going to have to need
to acknowledge all of those.

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And I was very lucky.

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I still don't know how this opportunity
ended

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up happening,
and I feel immensely grateful for it.

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But I was able to join the Center
for Partnership, then Studies, now Systems

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as a research assistant with the creation

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of a more holistic

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social wealth index,
which had been a pilot project

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at the CPS for a long time,
and one that I deeply resonated with.

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in the sense
that it was

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for the first time, quantitatively
asking ourselves, okay, nice

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we have these four cornerstones.

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How are we going to put them into practice
to challenge

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things like the GDP,
which is a bit more narrow?

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It's counting numbers, not reality.

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Like how can we better put reality into an
index that people can tangibly use more

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in research, for example in the academic
settings in which I exist in now

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or in policymaking
or how to measure countries improving.

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Because unfortunately and again,
with my love for agriculture

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we're currently measuring countries
progress in terms

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of how extractive and industrial
they become to our environment

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and the

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industries that do better
by the environment are less profitable.

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As someone who's passionate
about my generation's

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role and those to come

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in keeping a living

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healthy planet as best as we can.

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This just felt like the call
that I needed to respond to

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in the sense of dedicating my life
to continuing to try to make these other

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possibilities as concrete
and as manifested on this earth as we can.

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You know, a theme that's very common
in most of the interviews

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that I do for this Power of Partnership
podcast series

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is that once a person becomes

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aware of that entrenched
domination paradigm and that rigid

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ranking of the order of the world
and the othering where someone has to win,

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someone has to lose,
someone has to serve or be served,

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that once you recognize that,
you see it everywhere.

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And so in your ideal world,

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what would it take to help everyone

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recognize
that internalized domination paradigm

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so that we can really help everyone

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shift to a healthier way of
being for the sustainability of the world

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and for each of our own individual
and collective health and well-being.

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What a beautiful question.

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Thank you.

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I think we all

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we and our bodies, regardless
of how young we are

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in our memory remember trauma,

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you know, trauma certainly breeds trauma.

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It makes it very difficult
to break that cycle.

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And that's how domination systems
are so successful in their work.

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But we also never forget the time

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that we were embraced and supported,

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that we were ourselves authentically.

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And we not only survived,
but we felt like we could thrive

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where no matter how short that moment is.

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And so I do really just wish everyone,

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at least for 5 minutes on the earth,
could experience

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that kind of freedom,

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that weightlessness,
where you take a deep breath and it

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and it feels good and you feel full.

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Because if that happened,

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then despite the trauma, we would know

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deep down in our souls
and in our bodies that we can do better,

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that we can experience that again,
regardless

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of how much you've loved and lost it,
it was always a benchmark

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that you are capable of
feeling that emotion.

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You are able to do it and that you can't.

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It's like learning how to read.
No one can ever take that away from you.

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You can't hit a delete button on that.

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It's part of your education
as a human on the planet.

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And no one can ever take away
education from you.

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It's something you learn and you have.

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And it might change the
way you think forever. And so

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at least for listeners, you know, listen
to that song and do yourself a dance

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like or just try to find or discover what
that 5 minutes look like for yourself.

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Because

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no matter what shape it, comes through

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and it hurts no one and it brings you joy,

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then it's kind of reminding your body
and your mind what that compass is,

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where it should take us,
and what I just love about Riane's work

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is that she came
from such immense trauma and

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she's channeled that into

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discovering what brings herself
joy and seeing joy in others.

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And that's partnership.

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It's caregiving.

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It's prioritizing care.

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And that fundamentally

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helps us easier
to get to that state of joy and peace.

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Beautiful.

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So in thinking about helping young adults

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get in touch with that partnership
way of being.

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Yeah.

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What might be some resources or
just first steps that you would recommend

00;13;03;53 - 00;13;07;47
to young adults
who are completely new to Riane's work

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and have never considered the domination
partnership continuum or social lens?

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I would say,
and I'm not sure if it's because I'm

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a bit of a bookworm myself,
but read it's really striking.

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But there's overwhelming amount
of information out there on social media,

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different people calling
for different changes in different ways.

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And I can certainly relate to feeling
a bit paralyzed.

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because, wow, there's so much to do.

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Like where to begin, how
it's very overwhelming to deal with that.

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And it's also incredibly demoralizing
because we're the ones being told like,

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good luck.

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You know, here’s a bunch.

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Here’s like a little basket
of existential problems.

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And good luck
trying to figure out how you are going

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to be the one to solve it
when everything about our capitalist

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economy and society tells us
otherwise and incentivizes the opposite.

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So it's a very difficult situation
to be in.

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And the beauty of reading, and
especially I recommend Riane's work

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The Real Wealth of Nations
is incredibly powerful for me,

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as well as Nurturing Our Humanity.

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And of course, Chalice
and the Blade followed by Sacred Pleasure,

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just to name a few of her many works.

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I think the beauty of reading
a book on systemic change

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and looking at case studies
that evidence her work

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is that you can start to distinguish,
okay, this worked, this didn't.

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And I understand
why in a way that feels more human,

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more like you can really take it
a bite by bite and chew and digest

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that information
from start to finish in a way that I think

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is way more in alignment
with our neurology as humans

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and less stimulation oriented, which can
then lead to burn out very quickly.

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And if you have a look I mean, that's
how most movements began.

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It was through pamphlets
like the Federalist Papers

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and then having conversations
about that in salon societies, whether that be

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here in Paris or across the United States
and in the early forms of revolution.

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So we can think of

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most movements throughout history
and identify a book

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or a series of writings
that started the wildfire.

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You are listening
to the Power of Partnership podcast.

00;15;35;14 - 00;15;38;39
If you would like us
to share your partnership story

00;15;38;44 - 00;15;43;16
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00;15;43;21 - 00;15;48;49
please contact us at center@partnershipway.org

00;15;48;54 - 00;15;52;18
And now back to today's episode.

00;15;52;18 - 00;15;57;21
So I know you have a fairly
international background, Robyn.

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I wonder if you can speak a bit
about your different experiences

00;16;02;35 - 00;16;07;37
and how they've shaped your view
of the world.

00;16;07;37 - 00;16;09;58

I was born and raised in South Africa.

00;16;10;03 - 00;16;13;33
When I was around nine,
we moved to California

00;16;13;33 - 00;16;18;00
and I continued to live my life there
until I was 17 and I came to France

00;16;18;05 - 00;16;23;24
just to, I don't know, change things
up once again dramatically.

00;16;23;28 - 00;16;27;22
But yeah, so as you said it,
it's a pretty international background.

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It's one I'm very lucky to have

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But growing up in South Africa,

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it was an absolute blast.

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But I was exposed
to a lot of mass poverty.

00;16;40;38 - 00;16;42;23
I immediately had an immense

00;16;42;23 - 00;16;45;22
gratitude for being able to go to school

00;16;45;31 - 00;16;48;13
after driving past
a slum and seeing children

00;16;48;13 - 00;16;50;14
playing on a Monday morning.

00;16;50;14 - 00;16;55;54
You know, I was going to school and I couldn't understand why they weren't able to.

00;16;55;59 - 00;16;58;41
And it quickly got me thinking about,

00;16;58;41 - 00;17;03;04
okay, we're starting to see in this system
we have some haves and and we have some have nots.

00;17;03;04 - 00;17;05;23
But of course,
my time in the United States

00;17;05;23 - 00;17;09;18
gave me a immense opportunities,
mostly for extracurricular activities

00;17;09;18 - 00;17;13;19
that really showed me
how to live life so fully

00;17;13;21 - 00;17;17;48
and without the same concerns
that we have in South Africa regarding

00;17;17;53 - 00;17;20;52
personal safety. And

00;17;20;54 - 00;17;27;11
in a way, I was suddenly in an environment
where it seemed more equal.

00;17;27;15 - 00;17;29;18
We have more public services.

00;17;29;18 - 00;17;32;18
Everyone is guaranteed an education,

00;17;32;18 - 00;17;34;50
but as you get older,
you start to notice the cracks

00;17;34;50 - 00;17;39;19
in that system, in that vision,
that American dream.

00;17;39;24 - 00;17;43;43
And in many ways, my decision to come to
France was in pursuit

00;17;43;43 - 00;17;48;49
of a good quality higher education 
that was still affordable for parents.

00;17;48;54 - 00;17;50;28
And so coming.

00;17;50;28 - 00;17;53;59
Here, I mean, my living expenses
and tuition was less

00;17;53;59 - 00;17;57;20
than tuition at any of the universities
that I was accepted to,

00;17;57;24 - 00;18;02;42
and that would have been tuition
alone, regardless of student living and

00;18;02;47 - 00;18;03;46
residence costs.

00;18;03;46 - 00;18;06;51
And food plans that I find so common
in the United States.

00;18;06;51 - 00;18;11;54
And so it was really interesting
to be able to go to, you know,

00;18;11;59 - 00;18;17;16
the now second ranked university
in the world for political science

00;18;17;21 - 00;18;22;23
and to do so at the fraction of the cost
for a university in the United States.

00;18;22;28 - 00;18;23;42
And I'm really grateful for that.

00;18;23;42 - 00;18;27;49
It pushed me to learn French.

00;18;27;54 - 00;18;29;42
And I was able to do a

00;18;29;42 - 00;18;34;06
It's mandatory in fact, it's
mandatory in Europe to do one year abroad

00;18;34;15 - 00;18;38;00
in another country and another university
within the European Union.

00;18;38;05 - 00;18;39;31
And so that brought me to Sweden.

00;18;39;31 - 00;18;44;24
And just the physical experience
of getting to be living so close to nature

00;18;44;24 - 00;18;46;59
and to experience such gender equality

00;18;46;59 - 00;18;48;52
unlike anything
I'd ever experienced before,

00;18;48;52 - 00;18;52;36
even I consider myself to be incredibly
privileged and to be treated with,

00;18;52;41 - 00;18;55;43
you know, generally
a lot of respect and equality there.

00;18;55;43 - 00;18;57;00
It was just next level.

00;18;57;00 - 00;18;59;18
I didn't face those little everyday

00;18;59;18 - 00;19;02;22
microaggressions
that you sometimes encounter as a woman.

00;19;02;22 - 00;19;04;01
And so

00;19;04;06 - 00;19;05;16
it was really interesting.

00;19;05;16 - 00;19;08;51
And I think that kind of also
has for the earlier comment

00;19;08;56 - 00;19;13;31
set my new compass
very North and Riane explains why

00;19;13;36 - 00;19;18;46
she explains how it's those countries
that are performing the best economically

00;19;18;51 - 00;19;23;15
because they value caregiving so well
and that has been shown to yield

00;19;23;15 - 00;19;26;48
the best productivity and innovation

00;19;26;53 - 00;19;29;28
that this economy strives to achieve.

00;19;29;28 - 00;19;33;30
So in this Scandinavian countries,
you're referring to Sweden and.

00;19;33;30 - 00;19;38;17
Exactly, yes, Denmark, Norway, Finland.

00;19;38;22 - 00;19;41;18
So really interesting to have had
that lived experience and then to find

00;19;41;18 - 00;19;46;18
that reflected in Riane's work
and her findings as well.

00;19;46;23 - 00;19;49;20
Where do you see yourself

00;19;49;20 - 00;19;53;54
post formal education?

00;19;53;59 - 00;19;57;40
I would love to see myself
in a researcher capacity.

00;19;57;44 - 00;20;00;28
So at the moment
I'm doing a thesis project

00;20;00;28 - 00;20;02;57
looking at digital community currencies

00;20;02;57 - 00;20;06;16
as an alternative to official currency.

00;20;06;20 - 00;20;11;27
What if rural communities who are very
vulnerable to suddenly having a lack of,

00;20;11;32 - 00;20;16;25
you know, liquid cash
which is necessary to afford their basic

00;20;16;30 - 00;20;20;09
food, water, shelter, firewood,

00;20;20;14 - 00;20;23;45
you know,
and when the kind of fuel and oil

00;20;23;45 - 00;20;28;48
that keeps those engines and gears turning
and that being liquid cash runs dry

00;20;28;53 - 00;20;32;20
and there's a bank run or a trade
policy change, you know, immediately

00;20;32;20 - 00;20;35;55
they're unable to keep their gears turning
when otherwise, you know,

00;20;35;55 - 00;20;37;52
there are still vegetables
growing in the garden.

00;20;37;52 - 00;20;42;09
There is still water
and the goods are still there, but

00;20;42;09 - 00;20;47;41
they're no longer able to be circulated
through that little local economy anymore.

00;20;47;46 - 00;20;50;15
Can we provide them with a community
currency?

00;20;50;15 - 00;20;53;27
Can something be used
for only local transactions?

00;20;53;27 - 00;20;57;05
And then the official currency
is used for non-local transactions,

00;20;57;05 - 00;21;01;57
which is usually of a more serious nature,
such as sending your children to school,

00;21;02;02 - 00;21;06;54
business registration, investing
in that new farm asset that can help you

00;21;06;59 - 00;21;12;32
grind your grain instead of having
to always take that elsewhere to a mill.

00;21;12;37 - 00;21;13;11
It's very

00;21;13;11 - 00;21;16;14
exciting
to start to see these things happening,

00;21;16;14 - 00;21;19;23
and I think we're going to need a quite
a good team of researchers

00;21;19;23 - 00;21;24;06
in my generation
and I hope to be one of them in analyzing

00;21;24;11 - 00;21;29;06
whether or not that's truly helping people
and bringing about a positive impact,

00;21;29;11 - 00;21;32;37
because of course
the research that's being done

00;21;32;41 - 00;21;36;54
is largely funded by people
who want a certain outcome.

00;21;37;06 - 00;21;40;14
So I I'd like to start to challenge
that kind of trend.

00;21;40;14 - 00;21;44;24
that I started to observe
in agricultural research after my degree.

00;21;44;26 - 00;21;48;34
But I think that can be very more broadly
described as development,

00;21;48;34 - 00;21;50;40
economic research

00;21;50;45 - 00;21;53;41
and how we can shift that paradigm away

00;21;53;41 - 00;21;57;50
from an industrialist sense of success

00;21;57;55 - 00;22;01;34
to a bit more of a post industrialist
definition

00;22;01;34 - 00;22;06;57
of what it means to co-exist
and to thrive on the planet.

00;22;07;02 - 00;22;10;16
Robyn well, it's been so enjoyable
speaking with you today,

00;22;10;16 - 00;22;13;21
and I'm so excited
that you're doing the work you're doing

00;22;13;21 - 00;22;16;21
and have taken the time to meet with us
today.

00;22;16;33 - 00;22;20;14
Before we close,
I wonder if you have any final words

00;22;20;14 - 00;22;24;54
for our listeners about creating a world
that truly values caring nature

00;22;24;54 - 00;22;28;55
and shared prosperity,
and especially for those youth

00;22;28;55 - 00;22;33;46
and young adults who are new to Riane
Eisler's work have never heard of it

00;22;33;50 - 00;22;37;53
and certainly have never had any exposure
to the domination

00;22;37;58 - 00;22;42;20
partnership social lens continuum.

00;22;42;25 - 00;22;43;22
Thank you so much.

00;22;43;22 - 00;22;46;45
This has truly been
one of my most favorite conversations,

00;22;46;45 - 00;22;50;42
I think in my 24 years of life.

00;22;50;46 - 00;22;53;59
And it's mostly because I can just feel

00;22;53;59 - 00;22;57;13
how we're able to connect
to a broader audience.

00;22;57;13 - 00;22;59;42
And that is what you're doing
in this work.

00;22;59;42 - 00;23;02;59
And thank you for that. A final word.

00;23;03;11 - 00;23;08;41
I would say it's just more of a cautionary
tale on hope and heroes.

00;23;08;46 - 00;23;09;56
I think

00;23;09;56 - 00;23;13;19
it's so easy to be hopeful.

00;23;13;19 - 00;23;16;10
I try to be hopeful.

00;23;16;10 - 00;23;20;33
However, we kind of
are always given this hero narrative

00;23;20;38 - 00;23;25;00
that I seem to notice
and observe a lot regardless of your age,

00;23;25;00 - 00;23;29;19
but especially perhaps
with the rise of Marvel in our generation.

00;23;29;23 - 00;23;35;09
you know, people who observe the exact
same problems and we then end up

00;23;35;14 - 00;23;41;26
just waiting for the hero to show up
and to come along, and then he fixes it.

00;23;41;37 - 00;23;44;40
And mostly it's
he sometimes now I'm noticing

00;23;44;40 - 00;23;48;26
there are she heroes,
which is really nice.

00;23;48;31 - 00;23;51;30
However, it sends the same message.

00;23;51;43 - 00;23;55;32
Sometimes we see heroes work together
and that's nice as well.

00;23;55;37 - 00;23;58;04
But they are a minority

00;23;58;04 - 00;24;00;07
and it's important.

00;24;00;07 - 00;24;04;52
And we've seen powerfully
through the COVID 19 pandemic

00;24;04;56 - 00;24;09;27
and through the increasing conflict
that's happening on Earth,

00;24;09;32 - 00;24;12;31
that it's people it’s individuals

00;24;12;31 - 00;24;15;55
who make a cataclysmic difference
in one another's lives.

00;24;15;55 - 00;24;21;55
When we choose compassion and we choose
action over watching, over standing by.

00;24;22;00 - 00;24;24;50
And so, you know, it makes sense.

00;24;24;50 - 00;24;27;18
It's how we evolved, it’s
how we’re in 2023.

00;24;27;18 - 00;24;30;47
And if we want
to see a thirty twenty three,

00;24;30;52 - 00;24;31;13
which

00;24;31;13 - 00;24;35;04
I'm sure we will eventually in some way,
shape or form, and we want to do it

00;24;35;04 - 00;24;39;21
in the way that you describe,
then that's going to require

00;24;39;26 - 00;24;42;38
full participation.

00;24;42;43 - 00;24;46;01
And there's a lot of

00;24;46;05 - 00;24;51;44
caution, a lot of uncertainty
on how to take that action.

00;24;51;49 - 00;24;54;13
And I think it's important
to understand that

00;24;54;13 - 00;24;57;29
we never know what side of history
we'll be on.

00;24;57;34 - 00;25;03;38
We never know if our action is right
in the moment, how it's going to transact.

00;25;03;43 - 00;25;06;34
But if you are helping another person

00;25;06;34 - 00;25;12;16
and if you are expressing love
and compassion through that action,

00;25;12;21 - 00;25;17;40
then at least you know that
it was on the right side of yourself.

00;25;17;45 - 00;25;22;29
And it's not about what
that hero represents

00;25;22;34 - 00;25;26;39
in a more social or political way,
but it's you as an individual,

00;25;26;44 - 00;25;30;10
being the best hero that you can be.

00;25;30;14 - 00;25;31;10
And then you're going to find

00;25;31;10 - 00;25;35;10
that your calling, well,
will manifest itself

00;25;35;15 - 00;25;39;09
in a way that feels empowering
and fulfilling for you.

00;25;39;14 - 00;25;42;43
And if you feel anything otherwise, then

00;25;42;48 - 00;25;44;02
it's not for you.

00;25;44;02 - 00;25;46;35
But at least you feel something.

00;25;46;35 - 00;25;48;55
And it's not just hope,

00;25;48;55 - 00;25;52;13
because you can't point to hope
and show that it made a difference.

00;25;52;13 - 00;25;53;17
Unfortunately.

00;25;53;17 - 00;25;58;36
So it's almost like not are you a hero,
but what kind of a hero are you?

00;25;58;41 - 00;26;01;24
Beautiful.

00;26;01;24 - 00;26;03;12
Beautiful. Yes.