In this episode, Moira, Cynthia, and Tom outline the concept for the Podcast and discuss some characteristics of healthy conflict and ways we can prepare for it.
FMCS is providing this podcast as a public service, but it is neither a legal interpretation nor a statement of FMCS policy. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by the FMCS. The views expressed by guests are their own, and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by FMCS employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the view of the FMCS or any of its officials. If you have any questions about this disclaimer, please contact our Office of General Counsel via ogc@fmcs.gov.
In this episode, Moira, Cynthia, and Tom outline the concept for the Podcast and discuss some characteristics of healthy conflict and ways we can prepare for it.
FMCS is providing this podcast as a public service, but it is neither a legal interpretation nor a statement of FMCS policy. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by the FMCS. The views expressed by guests are their own, and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by FMCS employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the view of the FMCS or any of its officials. If you have any questions about this disclaimer, please contact our Office of General Counsel via ogc@fmcs.gov.
Cynthia Pyle-Manley
The author F. Scott Fitzgerald said,
The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.
Conflict is similar in this way.
It's really just two ideas trying to occupy the same space at the same time.
Thinking of it from this perspective, conflict is a fundamental function of human cognition.
And if that's true, then why is it often such a struggle for us to embrace?
Well, that's what we're here to discuss.
Welcome to the FMCS podcast, Conflict Resolutionary, where we support listeners in having more empowered conversations while in conflict.
I'm Cynthia Pile-Manley, a learning specialist with the Center for Conflict Resolution Education.
Moir Caruso
And I'm Moira Caruso, a mediator with the Office of National Projects with FMCS.
Tom Melancon is a mediator with the Office of National Projects.
He's a contributor to the podcast.
Tom Melancon
I'm so glad to be here.
Moira Caruso
I suppose we should let folks know what we're up to here, right?
Tom Melancon
Let's do it.
So what is this podcast about?
Moira Caruso
Okay.
The concept for this podcast is really exciting to me.
We're an agency full of conflict management professionals, right?
Tom Melancon
Yep.
Moira Caruso
And we get involved in people's disputes every day.
When we're inside a dispute, though, there's only so much we can do to work on capacity building for our clients.
And I mean improving how individuals and groups view and work through conflict, whether or not we're there.
And this podcast is a whole new way to do that.
Tom Melancon
Well, how do you mean?
I mean, what's different about the podcast than the other ways we work with parties?
Moira Caruso
We're going to use this platform to provide innovative concepts and methodologies that we hope will allow our listeners to think about and apply them to the platform.
And apply them to their conflicts through a different lens without us there in the comfort of their own imagination, if you will, which is personally my favorite place to work things out and to grow.
Cynthia Pile-Manley
Exactly, Moira.
It's a different approach that we're experimenting with where we explore more nuanced concepts and topics through conversation and dialogue.
Tom Melancon
Okay, nice. I mean, what I love most about my favorite podcast is how the learnings come from my own thinking about what's being said.
And that's the most powerful stuff.
Moira Caruso
I really agree with you, Tom.
So the concept for this podcast was born from our curiosity about our clients curiosity.
What are the burning questions out there that perhaps don't get answered in a mediation in a facilitation, or even in a training, and even taking that a step further.
What are some of the questions that some of us don't even know how to ask, because we don't have words yet for what we're experiencing.
Tom Melancon
Moira, this is such a cool approach.
You know, what else I'm realizing, it also allows us to introduce topics to listeners that they might not otherwise get to experience.
Moira Caruso
Yeah.
Tom Melancon
For example, if that topic isn't something the whole group or workplace needs at that particular time when we're working with them, there are only so many topics we can broach with a large group and a half day program, for instance.
We can cover a lot more here when we don't need to unpack it and apply it in a group setting.
Cynthia Pile-Manley
You're right, Tom. One exciting thing about the nature of a podcast is that it's a self-reflective experience.
The listener gets to decide how they personally feel about the idea shared without external input.
The listener also gets to set the time and pace at which they listen and refer back to past episodes if they choose.
Moira Caruso
That's exactly right.
In fact, that's really the point. We want to provide bite-sized pieces. We want to cover a lot of ground, and we want to have something for everyone that, by the way, they can return to again and again and just leave people with some ideas for how to use or apply it
themselves when the time is right.
Tom Melancon
So what's the format here? Is it all going to be interview-style?
Moira Caruso
Well, a lot of the time, it will just be talking through a concept. So this could be a quick exploration on something new, being developed in our field.
It could be a way to up your effectiveness in a disagreement or how to work through an emotion when you're being really challenged.
But we also have some exciting guests lined up to your question. We're going to be featuring researchers and practitioners in the field, as well as, from time to time, labor management parties who can help us look at success stories and lessons learned from their unique perspectives.
Tom Melancon
That's exciting. I want to say, though, I heard some of the topics we have lined up here are a little bit out there.
Moira Caruso
Well, that's one way to put it. There will definitely be a few topics that will feel like a reach. I'll put it.
Or that don't obviously pertain to conflict, but there will always be, I promise, Tom, a nexus or a red thread that ties us back to conflict.
Cynthia Pile-Manley
Yes, Tom, we promise to always thread the needle that ties back to conflict. But we also hope to widen the lens through which people view conflict and perhaps create greater awareness of how they interact with it, not just externally but internally as well.
Tom Melancon
Okay, I'll just have to trust you there.
Moira Caruso
Well, thank you for your trust. You know, everything is everything. That's how I feel. And sometimes, when I'm arranging flowers, I get a really good idea for how to work through it.
I get a really good idea for how to work through conflict. So that's okay.
Tom Melancon
I'm looking forward to that episode.
Cynthia Pyle-Manley
The conversation continues with Moira and Tom as the two of them discuss what makes for healthy conflict.
Tom Melancon
Let's dive into our first topic, which I think is pretty basic in the most beautiful way. And what made you suggest this one?
Moira Caruso
Well, for some reason, the title came to me.
And for both of us, it felt really vital. We have a lot of things planned for this podcast, innovative ideas and approaches to conflict.
And everyone seems to want to be searching for the new shiny thing in this field.
But sometimes we gloss over the foundations and without those, the other fancier stuff is likely to just crumble. One of the most successful and beloved chefs on this planet is Ina Garten.
We call her the barefoot Contessa. She has a show on the Food Network, probably several shows at this point.
She could absolutely teach you how to make a souffle if she wanted to in a single episode. But she doesn't want to do that.
At least not until she's taught you 20 ways to effectively handle an egg.
And that probably sounds pretty boring until you see what she does with an egg, how she approaches it. You know, it really makes you stop and think about the building blocks and all the ways you can use them.
And having gone through that exercise, you're in a completely different frame of mind when you use those to make something more advanced.
And that consciousness is baked in, if you'll excuse the pun, to the final result. And that's really what we're trying to do here.
Tom Melancon
And when you say basics here in this discussion, we're talking about the basics of healthy conflict.
The idea is before we can do cartwheels, we have to walk.
Moira Caruso
Exactly. That's exactly right.
Tom Melancon
We normalize conflict for our parties. We try to help build capacity for holding two or more opposing ideas at the same time and working through that.
And of course, if we were just about opposing ideas, maybe our jobs wouldn't even exist, but then you add humans to the equation.
So here's the question that we're posing to ourselves. And I think we should stay away from semantics around what is a crucial conversation? What is a difficult conversation?
What is healthy conflict?
Moira Caruso
Yeah.
I mean, the first thing we acknowledge when we define healthy conflict is that it is a thing that exists, and you can have it.
Tom Melancon
Right. And I think it helps when we're trying to define it to debunk some of the myths about it first.
Moira Caruso
I think that's a great approach. Let's get it out. Out with the myths.
Tom Melancon
Okay. Well, my favorite one to debunk is that healthy conflict is orderly and polite.
And we have some agreed-upon process and ground rules that everyone follows. And as you know, more of this, it's just not normally the case.
Moira Caruso
Not at all.
In fact, I think so many of us walk away at the drop of a hat when the other person doesn't magically start affirming everything we say, or if a talking stick doesn't just appear out of thin air.
And it sounds like a joke, but it's this is often how we behave in the expectations that we bring.
Tom Melancon
Yes, we want conflict to be neat and tidy. And it's often anything, but you talk about a question you get a lot.
What if I'm the only one who's showing up to work through things?
Moira Caruso
Yes. That's, that's really another misperception that I think is out there.
All of the time, people ask me this, and too often, it becomes our excuse to walk away, but you're rarely going to get someone who is just as ready as you are minute one to talk about whatever is bothering you about them.
We have to warm them up.
And that really does take conscious effort and commitment to the conversation.
Tom Melancon
Absolutely. Here's another one I like addressing conflict means something bad is going to happen.
This is a tricky one because it's usually dormant. It's in our subconscious minds. I mean, don't even know we're thinking this.
Moira Caruso
And it doesn't seem like a dangerous myth, right? But here's how this goes.
We are in it. We are an inherently risk-averse species.
Tom Melancon
Well, yeah, humans are slow, soft things surrounded by a lot of hardened, sharp things. So it makes sense.
Moira Caruso
Exactly. But we often choose not to start a conversation because of the risk that it might cause something bad to happen.
And the biggest risk we don't see is the risk of not doing something when a change really needs to be made to our circumstances.
If something bad is happening to us now, it might require conflict to take place to alter these circumstances.
Otherwise, it's going to continue and lead to anger, burnout, exhaustion, passive-aggressive behavior, or a whole host of other things.
But we fail to recognize not doing something as a choice that can perpetuate the circumstances that are currently in effect.
Tom Melancon
Okay. So let's say we recognize that it's time to do something.
What are some of the characteristics of healthy conflict, and what are some things that work well?
Moira Caruso
Well, that's a really good question.
There's something about the question that I want to address before I answer it directly, though.
Some of the most important development I've experienced getting better at conflict is watching people I admire go through it.
I've observed things that worked really well for them and tried to put that into practice to my peril.
And the takeaway there is to try things out but find a way to make them your own so that they're authentic when they're coming from you.
So that's the thing I'll say first.
But, you know, some things that characteristics of healthy conflict.
You know, am I meeting this moment fully?
Does it have all of me?
That's an intention that I try to set.
And I'm always checking in with myself to see if I'm on track.
You can't be halfway in it for a difficult conversation.
Personally, when I ask myself these questions, it also feels like I'm calling in all the parts of me.
And I feel like I'm not alone. Like I have myself.
How about for you? What are some things that? What are some questions that maybe you ask yourself?
Tom Melancon
Well, that all tracks and also this idea.
I'm asking myself, is there a hard truth that needs to be surfaced?
Is there something I'm not saying or that they're not saying?
And this is a really simple question that can unlock a new level of dialogue.
So, for instance, I feel like I'm being treated differently here.
Or my idea wasn't acknowledged until he, she, they said it.
And then it was recognized as their idea. And I'm frustrated.
So acknowledging that and expressing that.
Moira Caruso
We're, we're kind of getting into, you know, the way that healthy conflict can present, what it can look like.
Maybe let's go through.
Let's go through some expectations, maybe some awareness about how to practice some things and give our listeners some tools and techniques and see where we get to.
Tom Melancon
Sounds good. So one of them is this idea that there's going to be one conversation to rule them all.
Shout out to Shane Davis on that one.
Because it will most likely be a series of conversations.
And we have to adjust our expectations about what can be achieved in just what, right?
Moira Caruso
Nice. Yeah, absolutely.
Another expectation that I like to set early on is that you are inevitably going to be that idiot some of the time cringe moments will ensue just because you know what to do doesn't always mean that you're going to do it or to use any of these tools correctly.
Tom Melancon
Okay, so let's, let's talk about some of the things we might want to do. How about before we even go into the conflict.
One of the things that that I think is useful is to do a little risk assessment.
And so I might ask myself questions like, what do I stand to lose if I confront if I bring this conversation up.
And then also, maybe to me this is sometimes more important question, what do I stand to lose if I don't.
And it might be helpful to write these down, these down, take a look at risks and also to try to look at if there are fears associated with this conference confrontation, are they realistic.
When I go ahead with this confrontation or conversation and kind of use the words interchangeably, even if some of my fears may be realized, even if some of the things I'm afraid it might happen will happen.
Does it still make sense to go ahead.
Moira Caruso
This is all really important Tom, and I can't stress enough the value of writing it down to yourself. There's something magical about thoughts and beliefs when they're no longer in your head.
They get examined with a different eye and, and they can be questioned in a different way. So I think that your suggestion of writing them down is really helpful.
And once you've done that work, once you've assessed the risks, the potential gains, then you are able to assess your goals, which is my next suggestion.
You know, hopefully your goals are related to what you need out of the, out of the conversation empowerment, maybe closure, perhaps a better understanding some sort of solution, some sort of change in your circumstances.
So, so really understanding what it is that you're going after because if you get that out, then throughout the entire conversation and after you can track back to your goals and see if you're proceeding in the way that, you know, that is going to meet those.
Tom Melancon
That makes sense. And you know, so the next thing I wanted to talk about is planning. We're talking about difficult conversations, whatever you want to call them crucial conversations. It's also important to put some planning into that maybe more important than ever, because it helps
you to have more confidence when you go in.
So, things questions to ask in terms of this creating this plan are like, where should we meet? What's the physical space that would be the best place to allow privacy, and maybe not at wandering eyes seeing who were who's talking and is there a best time is earlier
in the day, for instance, when our minds are fresh better.
So, what do I want to say? What do I really want to convey in this conversation. And then what do I want or need from this conversation. I want to put all those things into a plan before I go in there.
Moira Caruso
I can't, you know, I can't stress enough. How many, how many options you have available to you in the planning stage. There are so many questions that you can ask yourself.
And the answer to those questions can help you alter the scenario or the circumstances around the conversation ever so slightly, or maybe not so slightly in a way that is either serving you or is not serving your goals.
So there's no necessarily right or wrong way, but having the conversation with yourself before the scenario that you are going to go into, I think is the takeaway, right?
Tom Melancon
Yeah, and also realizing that it's a plan but it's not set in stone tablets like you're when you get in there. This is a fluid situation.
Moira Caruso
Okay. So now that we've assessed and we've planned. How about that timeframe leading up to a conversation that you know is going to happen whether or not your partner knows yet.
A lot of us can really lose our nerve or psych ourselves out in that, you know, those precious moments leading up to. So if we want to get our heads on straight. What do we do?
Tom Melancon
Well, so this might sound strange to our listeners, we said we're going to get out there. So here we go. So do you meditate prior to the conversation to put yourself in the best possible headspace for it.
And I want to look at my intentions and also my biases and really try to take a close look at that, and that's not easy as you know, but what is what is the baggage that I'm bringing into this conversation?
And it might be helpful even to name them, you know?
Moira Caruso
Sure. Yeah, I think that's all really helpful.
One that I use a lot and I coach people on if you struggle with articulating your feelings in the moment.
First of all, I would say you're not alone. That is probably all of us. But I play around with my wording beforehand. And I really do mean play.
Sometimes I'll jot down a phrase I want to start with when I'm asking for the conversation or when I'm naming what's bothering me, and I call it an anchor phrase.
I don't know where that came from that might have come from a book or someone else that I've learned from. But for example, I'd like to talk through something that happened in our meeting yesterday and how it impacted me.
And that's an example of something that I would decide ahead of time that I wanted to say as a lead-in so that you're not tripping yourself up before you even talk about the substance of the conversation.
Sometimes I will record myself saying it on my iPhone, and I'll listen to it, and I'll ask myself how that would sound if someone were saying it to me.
It's not a magical practice. It makes you not only more articulate in the moment, but it actually makes you sound more natural. And I can attest to that. And I can attest to others that I have taught how to do it.
And you know I'll just mention Tom like there've been in particular, a lot of female leaders that I have coached through this practice. And that has worked wonders for a lot of those folks who come to me for this kind of help.
Tom Melancon
So I love that tip that you just gave, so what about during the conversation? Let's talk about some things that we can do during the conversation to improve the chances of it being successful.
Moira Caruso
Great question. The first thing that I always share is to cut out the fluff.
People when stress is high.
When you're worried that you're going to misstep or offend someone.
I say you, we tend to use about 800% more words than we should.
You say only the essential, and then once you've gotten that out. Try to lean into the silence there. You know, what's happening during the silence? It's landing for them.
And you're giving them the grace of, you know, of assembling their response in a way that is best workable for them, you know, likely having been approached by this conversation for the first time unexpectedly.
Tom Melancon
Absolutely. And the silence is so important. You know, I've been able to train many mediators over my career. And one of the things that I'll suggest when they ask for just.
How do you get started in this? They say one of your best tools is just silence. Oftentimes the next thing that comes can be a really important question or statement.
Moira Caruso
Yep.
As beginners, that's the number one thing that we have to work on.
And then the second thing early on that I share with folks is call it like you see it.
Say what it is you're seeing or experiencing. But do it with as little characterization as humanly possible. So these things have to go hand in hand. You have to be honest and upfront.
But take away the accusations, even if they're implied rather than stated; those can be more dangerous than anything. So, you know, if I feel that you talked over me, Tom, what I would say is that you started speaking before I was done.
There are two very different ways to characterize what you know, what is really a neutral set of set of circumstances. I have applied meaning to it. I've made it mean something when I say that you, you talked over me.
Tom Melancon
And when you just state the actual what happened is, you know, I started talking before you stop. It's, it's the facts, right? And it's, and it's, and it's not, it doesn't, it didn't come across to me as an accusation. It came across to me as an observation.
And it's different, right?
Whether or not I make a statement that's kind of an anchor statement that helps get the conversation on a good path or I wait for the other person to respond.
And so many people raise their hand. And, as you know, if people were that good at listening, we wouldn't have as much work to do. Right. No, no, we're near. So, so, so I think one of the keys is to trust in these difficult conversations, these conversations that maybe we have some anxiety about
that, we're not going to forget our feelings. And the time it takes us to listen to the other person. We're not going to forget what we walked in there with. We're still going to remember that. That's not going to be a problem. So, when the person is talking, I really do need to listen with every bone of my body.
That really is a big part of this, right?
Moira Caruso
Well said, I think that's really well said and a good reminder. And I've said this before, even on other podcasts, actually, be mindful of what you're listening for.
You're listening for something to affirm or build upon. You're listening for something that, you know, something that you can tug on to get to the next step in the step and the next level in the conversation.
Tom Melancon
So, yeah, the thread that ties you together.
Moira Caruso
Exactly.
Tom Melancon
Yeah, that makes total sense.
Moira Caruso
You know, we did all of that good planning earlier. We assessed and we planned. Don't just throw that out the window. Don't forget about it when you're in the thick of things.
Think about what you planned, the intentions that you set, and the reasons that you're here, and make sure that you're on track with that because the whole reason that we that we do those things is to set a goal is to measure where we are in relation to that goal.
When we are in the conversation.
Tom Melancon
And I need to remember to breathe.
Moira Caruso
Mm.
Tom Melancon
I mean, it sounds simple, but we hold our breath sometimes at the most crucial time in these conversations and what happens then is you're, you know, if I breathe if I, if I make sure that I'm getting a good breath and that keeps my heart rate and my blood pressure down.
It reduces the spread of adrenaline, which is, you know, as you know, our bodies natural reaction to reaction to stress and threat.
You know, it's just a good, a good reminder that we just need to keep breathing.
Moira Caruso
I think that's really important because nobody understands how imperative it is that our nervous system be working for us, rather than against us, when we're in a difficult conversation because biology has set us up, you know, to already be
harder than we then we really should be just to stay in a productive state of mind, we need our bodies working for us to the extent that they can be.
Tom Melancon
Right. So that kind of leads into the next topic, right?
Moira Caruso
Yeah.
Tom Melancon
Which is what about this idea of a break or getting back to the what we just talked about, a breather when temperatures are running hot.
Moira Caruso
Yeah. I mean, it's a good question. We need our bodies working for us rather than against us. Right. We just, we just said that.
Tom Melancon
Right.
Moira Caruso
I have to say, though, Tom, I whenever, whenever I hear someone advising someone to take a break or to walk away when the conversation is getting hard, I tend to push back on that a little bit because I always think that you can go a little bit farther than you think you can. And sometimes there's really good stuff there when you feel like you're at the end of your rope, but it's really just, your brain telling you that you're at the end of your room. And if you stayed in there for five minutes longer, you'd have a breakthrough. So I don't know how that tracks with you.
Tom Melancon
I can't disagree with that because I think that, there, if we utilize, if we rely too much on this idea of like, okay, you know, we've got a ground rule for this, we take a break, we walk away.
Are we avoiding the true, are we avoiding getting to the truth of what we need to talk about acknowledging that that means that I have to have some, some things that I'm doing for myself where I'm keeping myself calm that I maybe have some self-talk that
we're, we're, and breathing like we just talked about and other things, but yes, staying in the conversation so that we can get to that nugget that we may miss if things get a little heated and we walk away, right I agree.
Moira Caruso
There's something that you talk about with your groups.
And when you want to keep the focus on your feelings and needs rather than assign them to the other to the other person.
Tom Melancon
There, there is a used tool that I've worked with with groups that I work with in terms of healthy conversations
and the conflict is to use I statements, and that is just simply, it could be as simple as I feel this because this and the thing that it does is it turns it into owning what my feelings are, and then what I need from the other person
like you getting back to the, the, the fewest use of words, it's very direct when we say, you know, you were late, where if I say, you know, I'm, I'm a little frustrated because I've been waiting here for, for the last 20 minutes and
Moira Caruso
Yeah, and our scheduled time to begin was three o'clock.
Tom Melancon
And you know that that's different than, hey, you're a jerk, you're late, right? I mean, it may be sounds really simple, but that's sometimes we start conversations on such a tone of kind of
aggression in that way that it's really hard to reel it back.
Moira Caruso
Well, I think, you know, to harken back to some of the things that we spoke about earlier, taking in those minutes leading up to the conversation, taking those deep breaths, and deciding, maybe your anchor phrase, how you want to lead into the conversation
and making sure that you've framed your opening in a way that supports resolution efforts.
Tom Melancon
Yeah, yeah, I mean, absolutely. I've even used the phrase where I, where I just want it to be less confrontive, but I've, but I want to get convey to
another person that there's maybe some behaviors confusing. I'll say, you know, the story in my head is this. And it allows me to just say this could just be in my head and allows the other person to fill in the blanks there and that can be another way to open up a conversation
that's less threatening than, you know, you really disappointed me, you know, or whatever.
Moira Caruso
I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so we've talked about before we get into a conversation. We've talked about what we were going to try to do during.
What about after what about when we're looking back on it. Maybe it's the next day or that evening.
Moira Caruso
Yeah.
Tom Melancon
You know, when we want to, and we want the idea of improving.
Moira Caruso
You don't improve without a look back. Right. You don't improve without a look back in an honest assessment of what happened and, and whether that was working for you or whether you want to adjust something. Right.
Tom Melancon
I think that makes sense. You know, it's like an after-action, but it's just with yourself. Right. Maybe not, you know, you do a team after. And I think the thing that's important to focus on this is this is an opportunity to learn and grow.
Moira Caruso
The debrief is for, you know, giving yourself an honest look, also some grace. And just like you were objective and, and, and not characterizing the other person during the conversation, you need to be that for you after the conversation and not, you know, not judge
yourself for what you did or didn't say, but really decide what you want to shift the next time or going forward.
And then whether you want another shot at it. A few of us remember that you, you know, you get to do it again. If you want, you get to, you know, you get to call them up and say, that didn't go as well as it could have. And the, you know, our relationship is important enough to me to where I want to try it again after having given it some thought and, you know, and reassess
that.
Tom Melancon
And so, you know, without a debrief, I'm not, you know, we might fall into the trap of just having the same conversation.
Moira Caruso
All right. Well, what do you say we zoom out for a second from ourselves and what we're doing inside the conflict.
And so, you know, you know, if we've set our expectations, and we know that, that it's going to be tough, it's going to be hard some of the time, maybe a lot of the time. How do we know when conflict is going the way it should go?
Tom Melancon
I like the zoom-out concept. So I think one of the things is that you're noticing the environment, the canvas, your words are creating if you will.
And that implies a couple of things. You're aware of what your impact is.
And you're aware that you have an impact, right?
Moira Caruso
Nice. Yeah.
Well, and then once you notice that, once you notice the impact that your words are having, you find that you are adjusting your words over time to produce the results that you want.
And more specifically, you're choosing your words not to sound right, not to make you sound like, you know, you're the one with a better argument or to give you the upper hand, but you're choosing your words so that they reach their intended target,
which I think is a really, you know, elevated and nuanced way to go about it. And that really is what framing is. And framing is something that takes practice.
And that's, you know, that's a lot of what we teach in the courses that we teach about persuasion and conflict and things like that. It's an art form to frame a set of circumstances in a way that is true and devoid of assigning meaning or blame, and that sets things up in a way that the other person is likely to work with you on it.
Tom Melancon
Yeah. Well, this is great. So we've talked about impact. We've talked about framing, and then the thing that comes to mind for me is also being aware of changes in the mood of the room or the conversation that that happened and being aware and acknowledging
them when something shifts when something changes to pay attention to that and to see if that means that there's there's a possibility of a breakthrough of a connection of a way that we can get through this, what's been perceived as an impasse or
an obstruction in our relationship, how can we move forward to really, and that's almost a feeling. It's not something even you can kind of feel it, right?
Moira Caruso
You can feel it. And I think what happens when something like that goes down is that the human in you recognizes the human in me, in vice versa. And I think that that is what really, even when things aren't panning out the way you hoped, or when it looks like agreement is still so far out of reach, that is, I think that's really the characteristic
of healthy conflict. What I tend to see that helps me know kind of as a marker that it's healthy and it needs to continue is that the other person, I can visibly see them frustrated and struggling, like they're, you know, shifting in their chair or whatever, but they are
carefully selecting their next words. And what that says to me is that their choice of words matters enough to them to where the relationship is as important, if not more important than the outcome.
Tom Melancon
Yeah.
Moira Caruso
And that's what makes me stay. And that's what gives me hope that we're going to make it to the other side. And, you know, and that is more often than not a possibility.
Tom Melancon
You know, it's such a great summary because it feels like we've come full circle. We're talking about healthy conflict. And one of the first things we talked about is what makes healthy conflict so difficult is that we're dealing with humans.
Moira Caruso
Yeah.
Tom Melancon
And then what we brought it back to is that humans and the humanity and the human exchange between people is also can be the thing that that is the salvation of a conflict and can be the the cure, if you will, that connection that human to human connection. Isn't that interesting?
Moira Caruso
That is very interesting.
Well, it just makes me want to, it just makes me want to tune in to some of the things that we have planned.
Tom Melancon
Me too. Absolutely.
Moira Caruso
as we continue to
Tom Melancon
shameless plug
Moira Carsuo
As we continue to promote the seeking of healthy conflict and our own self-improvement as it relates to our efficacy, therein.
Tom Melancon
That's right. We're creating it.
We want to create an army of conflict revolutionaries, right?
Moira Caruso
And that's right. Okay. Thank you for this dialogue. I am very much looking forward to seeing what comes next.
Tom Melancon
Thank you so much.
Cynthia Pyle-Manley
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