Badgers Abroad

Episode #3 - Vietnam with Nathaniel Liedl

• UW–Madison International Safety & Security

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0:00 | 15:07

In today's episode, we discuss traveling in Vietnam with Nathaniel Liedl, an Intern Abroad Advisor and Program Manager with UW-Madison's International Internship Program. In his role, Nathaniel cultivates and advises UW-Madison students on internships in Asia and Africa. From 2009 to 2011, he lived in Vietnam teaching English and reporting on food and drink, travel, and culture for an English language magazine.

Nathaniel holds a BA in Journalism from UW-Madison and a Master’s degree in Education from Edgewood College. After his undergraduate, he worked as an editor, reporter, and photographer for a newspaper in Southern California before moving to Vietnam.  After returning to Madison, and taught English and literature at DeForest Area High School for five years before joining the International Internship Program in the fall of 2019.

References and resources from the podcast are listed below:



Jeremy Rohrer:
All right, welcome to the Badgers Abroad podcast. My name is Jeremy. I'm the Assistant International Safety and Security Director at UW-Madison's International Division and the host of this podcast. So today I'm joined by a special guest. I'll let him introduce himself.

Nathaniel Liedl:
Yeah, thanks, Jeremy. I'm Nathaniel Liedl. I am an advisor and Program Manager with the international internship program.

Jeremy Rohrer:
So you've got a lot of Southeast Asia experience, but specifically Vietnam experience.

Nathaniel Liedl:
Yes, that's right.

Jeremy Rohrer:
And I know we have programs here at UW-Madison that travel to Vietnam, both as internships and other things. So, I've got a series of questions here that I'm going to ask you. First, what inspired you to study and work abroad in Vietnam?

Nathaniel Liedl:
There were a lot of different reasons. I had been working as an assistant editor at a small newspaper in Southern California. I just wanted to do something completely different. And I always had a desire to travel and see the world, and I started picking a friend's brain who had some experience teaching abroad. I had also been watching a lot of the show, No Reservations. And one of Antohny’s Bourdain’s, in fact, I think his favorite country was Vietnam. So, there was an episode about that that really stood out to me and left an impression. And I think, as well, Vietnam is so relevant in American culture, especially with my parents' generation, and just learning about it in history. And so, I was always kind of curious to learn more about Vietnam and its culture, kind of beyond the war as well. And kept chatting with some friends who were working in English as a second language. And this specific friend said, hey, I'm going to be moving to Vietnam. And it was kind of enough for me just to have one friend in a place abroad. Yeah, so it didn't take too much convincing.

Jeremy Rohrer:
Okay, so my second question is, how did you prepare to travel to Vietnam? Did you prepare to learn language and cultural skills? Did you have to do financial planning, security preparations, things like that?

Nathaniel Liedl:
I had to get certified to teach English as a second language first, so I applied for this CELTA course, which is through the University of Cambridge, and I was accepted into that program. And I knew I was going to be taking that in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam. Beyond that, it was just trying to really absorb as much of cultural media as possible. Obviously, with America's history in Vietnam, a lot of that media focuses on the Vietnam War, or the American War, as it's known in Vietnam. But I tried to move beyond that a little bit as well. I have a background as an English major, and I have always loved to read. And so that's a lot of my cultural preparation, just reading as much as I can, both non-fiction and fiction. So, I was trying to work in some contemporary, in addition to a lot of the media that kind of focuses on the war.

Jeremy Rohrer:
Is there anything specifically that you read?

Nathaniel Liedl:
Yeah, Catfish and Mandala is a good contemporary book about the author's journey, bicycling through Vietnam, and his experiences with the culture as someone who is an American citizen, but whose parents were refugees from Vietnam. So, a heritage seeker, someone returning to Vietnam and experiencing it firsthand after having heard about it from his parents. That was a really fascinating read.

Jeremy Rohrer:
Did you have any concerns or anxieties before you departed? Did you encounter any of these concerns when you were there, and how did you overcome or accommodate those concerns?

Nathaniel Liedl:
Yeah, definitely. And it didn't help that whenever I mentioned moving to Vietnam to people, especially of my parents' generation, would say things like, is it safe to go there, considering the war? And it was like, well, that was many, many years ago. But that was the nightly news for a whole generation of people, leading the Nightly News with horrific scenes of war. So understandable, but people liked to remind me of that when I mentioned, yeah, that was, I was moving to Vietnam, but I think more so, I was kind of anxious about how I would be perceived as an American. Would there be lingering resentment? Would that make for a challenging experience, and just a barrier in getting to know people beyond that? I had never taught before, and so that was a very new experience. And just, standing up in front of class, and I'd always had teaching in the back of my mind, but it was not something I'd ever done before, and just being so far away from home, a new culture, completely new, new climate. I was kind of worried about the heat as well. Which was valid, which was justified. Yeah, never quite used to the heat, the Southeast Asia heat and humidity are for real. Yeah, it doesn't really stop.

Jeremy Rohrer:
No. So, did you do anything specific to overcome those things that you were nervous about, or did you just live your life and let everything just sort of fall into place?

Nathaniel Liedl:
You know, I think Vietnam is a really, is a really hospitable and welcoming place. And I forget the exact statistic, but it's something like half the population. Is under the age of 30, and so it's a really young country, and it's a country that's experienced a lot of economic growth in a short time. And so, it seems like people have really moved on. Yeah, you know, it's a new generation there as well, and they're just focused on the present and the future and making a better life for themselves and for their families. So, you would see remnants of the war. I mean, the communists won the war, so there's a lot of propaganda, and you see people who have been maimed, or people who had limbs amputated, or people suffering from Agent Orange and napalm, that's still evident. But in day-to-day life, in people's treatment, I've got nothing but wonderful things to say about the Vietnamese, just really generous, kind people who are easy to laugh with and easy to talk to. So it made the transition to life there really smooth,

Jeremy Rohrer:
So that segues perfectly into my next question, and that's, tell us about the most memorable interaction you had with the locals. Is there one thing that comes to mind, one memorable interaction?

Nathaniel Liedl:
There are so many. I have a lot of wonderful memories in the classroom, but something that stands out is that I actually bicycled the length of Vietnam. So, it goes back to that book that I mentioned, but it was a great way to get beyond the typical tourist track in Vietnam and see a lot of rural areas. And I did it with a group of foreigners. And so, we drew a lot of attention. Wasn't typical for a large group of foreigners to come through small towns on bicycles, and people were always really curious. We'd run into a lot of kids getting out of school in their uniforms. And I remember one day I was just exhausted, and I was lying down on the roadside, and this guy came up, and he was just kind of joking around, very, very curious and intrigued by our group. He was checking my pulse to make sure I was okay. Just goofing around. And yeah, so interactions like that, where the guy didn't speak any English. And my Vietnamese wasn't much to really have a deep conversation, but you're still just able to laugh. I found that it was common wherever I was in Vietnam, people wanted to engage and laugh.

Jeremy Rohrer:
Yeah, it's funny how goofing around is a universal language. No matter where you go. Most of my experience abroad – it's always the same thing, something like that. And everybody chuckles, and you go, all right, we all get it. Laughter is a universal language.

Nathaniel Liedl:
Universal Language.

Jeremy Rohrer:
All right, so what was your favorite food in Vietnam, and where did you get it?

Nathaniel Liedl:
  Bánh xèo is a Vietnamese pancake, or kind of like a Vietnamese crepe, and it's made from rice flour. I think it usually has some turmeric, and it's, it's like a crispy crepe. It oftentimes has pork as a filling, or shrimp or prawns, and then you can add a bunch of fresh herbs as well. It usually has mung beans, and you can add mint. And then finally, you'll take a big leaf of lettuce and kind of use that as a taco shell, almost. And it's something just about the combination of textures, you know, the leafy green. But then with this really savory, crisp pancake, it's just an amazing dish. And I've had some in the States, but it's never quite the same as this one spot I had in my neighborhood in my city. It's kind of a hard thing to replicate.

Jeremy Rohrer:
It is, and you would usually dip it in this garlicky fish sauce that probably can only be made there. It's, again, one of those things. You can have it in the States, but it's just never, it never tastes the same. Yeah. So, what was something that you used in Vietnam that you couldn't have lived without, any item that you had, that you thought, I'm glad I brought this, or I wish I'd known to bring this, and I'm glad I found one. When I was in Africa, I had these, I don't want to give any brand placement, so I won't say the brand, but these fishing shirts that were super light material, that were super airy, and compared to everything else I wore, it felt like I had air conditioning on my body, so I couldn't live without those shirts, because it was 110 degrees all the time. So, I don't know if it's a similar thing in Vietnam, or if they probably have local clothes in Vietnam that worked really well.

Nathaniel Liedl:

For sure. And it sounds simple, but sunscreen. During my time in Vietnam, I realized I really need to be more mindful about taking care of my skin. And you know, you kind of do as the locals do. I remember the first time getting around the city and seeing a bunch of people waiting at a stoplight, but they weren't near the intersection. They were just right at the edge of where the shade stopped. And so little, little adjustments like that. It's like, do as the locals do. Okay, I'm gonna hide in the shade. I'm gonna hunker down during the hottest part of the afternoon, things like that.

Jeremy Rohrer:
So what was the most significant challenge you faced in the country, and how did you overcome it? And if you have more than one, you can tell me about more than one.

Nathaniel Liedl:
I think if anyone spends enough time in Asia, they're gonna have a bout with some stomach issues. So, I'll spare the details, but it's really difficult when you're far away from home in a new place, and you feel crummy, yeah? But it feels like it's an inevitable, like a rite of passage of being there. That's also part of the adventure, eating a lot of different kinds of food. That's part of the joy of being able to take in the culture and try a lot of different kinds of food. But you know, it can come with the downside, yeah? Make sure it's clean facilities, safe, all that good stuff.

Jeremy Rohrer:
Absolutely, you always want to practice good food hygiene and make sure you're taking those appropriate precautions. But yes, to experience the culture, I don’t want to miss out on those experiences.

Nathaniel Liedl:
Yeah, and how it changes so much by region as well. You know, you think about how different food is here, and parts of the country, and it's, you know, the same. It's not monolithic in Vietnam either. It really ranges by region, and there are local specialties and things that you can only find in specific parts of the country.

Jeremy Rohrer:
Yeah, one city can vary very widely from the next city, I imagine, based on what's locally available. And a lot of that, that food that they're selling, that locally made food, probably reflects that?

Nathaniel Liedl:
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, the North is really different from the south. So, there's a lot of traditional Vietnamese soup pho, which you can find just about anywhere here. But there are a lot of local kinds of spins on that that can be different wherever you are.

Jeremy Rohrer:
All right. So, what advice would you give to other individuals who are traveling or studying abroad in Vietnam?

Nathaniel Liedl:
You should do it. It's a wonderful internship in Vietnam, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, the heat is really something that I think you have to prepare for, stay well hydrated, stay in a place that has air conditioning, if possible. But yeah, you should go for it. It's just a wonderfully hospitable country that really has something for everyone. The geography you have miles and, you know, hundreds of miles of coastline, and then there's the Highlands as well. There's just so much to see and do there.

Jeremy Rohrer:
So, how did traveling to Vietnam affect your personal growth and career aspirations? Did it? Did it change the way you thought about what you wanted to do in life or who you wanted to be?

Nathaniel Liedl:
Yeah, I mean, I certainly wouldn't, wouldn't be here in my role at the university today if it hadn't been for my time in Vietnam. I think my time there gave me a lot of confidence. You know, it was my first experience teaching, and so when I returned home to the States, that kind of set me on the education track here, and that never would have happened without teaching English in Vietnam. So, it's really kind of shaped my whole career. And I think it just made me more open-minded about different cultures, and only further served as a catalyst to want to experience more of the world and see how people live all over the world.

Jeremy Rohrer:
Yeah? And, you know, there are lots of opportunities to do that.

Nathaniel Liedl:
There sure are. Yeah, I think it can be hard to know where to, where to start. Yeah, you know, it's easier to do while you're young and before you have a family, yeah? And I think it can be a lot of, a lot of students that I speak with who are, who are thinking about maybe going abroad, post graduation, they think that it's going to, you know, hold back their career, put a pause on their career trajectory and I'd really push back on that and say that it's an opportunity that is only going to advance your career. All of the skills that you nurture and acquire while you're abroad are things that are going to be applicable to just about any career: cross-cultural communication, learning to navigate a different culture, and adaptability, being able to communicate with people who are different than you. Those are all things that are going to serve you well in just about any career, and the skills that employers are looking for. So, I think it's something that, rather than you know, holding back your career, is something that actually can jumpstart your career in a way, to make you stand out.

Jeremy Rohrer:
So that, that would be a beautiful concluder. But I have one more question that almost piggybacks on that. So, if you have anything else to add, you can add it now. So, is there anything we didn't cover, or is there anything else you'd like to share with future travelers? You pretty much summed it up there before. But is there anything else you can think of that you'd like to add?

Nathaniel Liedl:
You know that wherever you are in your life, it's never a bad time to travel and to get out in the world, but different cultures have so much to offer in terms of your own personal growth and professional growth. There are just so many opportunities for young people to learn about themselves and to learn about others and the world, yeah.

Jeremy Rohrer:
All right. Well, I appreciate Nathaniel. Thanks for joining us today, and that concludes today's podcast. Thanks for listening.