Last Week in Denmark

Phone Bans, US Products Boycott & Adoptee Reclassification Backlash: LWID S3E6

• Katie Burns & Golda Fania • Season 3 • Episode 6

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Denmark is looking into banning phones in schools, the Salling Group makes it easier for shoppers to identify European-made products amidst the US boycott movement, and a recent attempt to classify Danish adoptees born after 1968 as immigrants sparked backlash and a #ErJegStadigDansk movement. Katie and Golda are back to cover these hot topics of the week.

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SPEAKER 1

Welcome to episode six of the Last Week in Denmark podcast. I'm one of your co-hosts, Katie. 

SPEAKER 2

Hello.

SPEAKER 1 

And I am with the wonderful Golda this week. How are you doing, Golda?

SPEAKER 2

I am doing much better than I was this week.

SPEAKER 1

Thank God. It sounds like it's been a bit of a rough run.

SPEAKER 2

Yeah, it has. It has been really, really busy and, yeah, I have some allergies that I'm trying to work at. Hopefully I'm not coughing through this episode. I'll try my best.

SPEAKER 1

No, you're loud and clear and wonderful. We're gonna have fun. And even if you do cough, we might just pretend it's part of the news. 

But anyway, the three topics we're gonna be talking about this week are the boycott against products from US companies intensifying, now with a black star to identify alternatives from European countries. 

Then we'll talk about Denmark wanting to ban phones in schools and reform childhood. 

And finally we'll talk about how the government got into trouble, after they classified adoptees from abroad as immigrants.

SPEAKER 2

That's so crazy. 

SPEAKER 1

Lots going on in Denmark this week

So we'll start with, I'm sure, something we're all thinking about: the boycott against products from US companies intensifying and there's now going to be a black star to identify alternatives from European companies. So these are actually two kind of separate pieces of news that kind of feed into each other. 

So just to kind of start with, firstly, for reasons I'm sure we can all relate to, more consumers are choosing to avoid American goods, since President Trump was inaugurated. 

SPEAKER 2

Shocking. 

SPEAKER 1

And one of the articles related to this topic is, interestingly, from a store owner in Copenhagen who was was told by a customer that they were complaining that they were still stocking American products. And this seems to be a trend, as well as a Facebook group with over 15,000 members kind of dedicated to boycotting US goods. 

And then at the same time, for a different reason apparently, Salling Group is going to be making it easier for us to choose European brands by introducing a black star symbol next to prices in Bilka, Føtex and Netto to highlight products from European owned companies.

 So Salling has said this comes from customer requests for better transparency on product origins, but at the same time it fits very nicely into if you wanted to be supporting European businesses or boycotting American businesses, this is going to make it very very useful going forward.

 So what are your thoughts on that Golda?

SPEAKER 2

I love how organized this is. 

It's like yeah, we're gonna protest, but we're gonna do it the Danish way. We're gonna make sure that even if you don't know what's going on, this black star is gonna have you asking questions, like just walking in a supermarket, like, why is there a black star on my product? And then someone would be like, because we're boycotting.

SPEAKER 1

Okay, but we're not really.

No, no, we're just being transparent about what we don't want to buy. But, yeah, I love that. 

I love that it's organization driven, and it is. 

It's something very genuinely, like, If I knew more, I would probably buy more European brands, but it is something that for some reason you only see it on fruit. 

Like a lot of fruit will say this is from Spain or this is from Brazil or something like that, but not any other products. 

And I don't know why that would be.

SPEAKER 2

That's actually an interesting thought. 

I actually never thought about that, but that's actually true. 

I wonder why they do that now.

SPEAKER 1

Someone somewhere made a decision. 

SPEAKER 2

Of course Of course, it's always someone making a decision on the behalf of the rest of us. But I would say I'm really happy. 

Like, I think what's going on now with, and I don't want to name him, but Trump, he's just running wild. And I think it's about time that Denmark stands up for themselves. It's a little country, you know, we're like the underdogs.

And I've always imagined that Denmark was like pro-America all the way through. But then when America was like, or Trump is like, yeah, I want Greenland, then Denmark's like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, well, we like you, but you're not taking our territory, okay? Like, we have boundaries and limits. 

So I think it's good. I think they're getting everybody involved. And this is amazing. Keep it up! 

And that group, is it possible you can share that link because I would like to join?

SPEAKER 1

It's in the newsletter, the last week in Denmark newsletter coming out Sunday morning. 

But yeah, no, I completely agree and I think this is... it's one of these things that's probably one of my favourite things about Denmark is I think people take a huge amount of responsibility here for the power of their money because it is...

I come from Ireland and similarly a small country so on a global stage I do think Irish people we love to complain but do we actually do anything? Do we actually change anything? Not really. Or we are just quite complacent, like even with kind of corruption in our government or, you know, we've had a homeless crisis for I don't know how long, but yet we have 3,000 hotels across the city center that are all extremely overpriced. 

So there's things like that that we just don't do a lot about. But then I find in Denmark, anytime there's any kind of issue, there is this kind of, well, we as individuals can work together, and that sense of community and trust that I suppose you see everywhere around Denmark. I think it really comes through with: there's something bad happening in the world, what can each of us do?

This is one way. So let's get more informed, let's get organized, let's put black stars on things so we can easily identify where our money is going, and then let's see what happens. And hopefully something good can come from it, but even if it doesn't, we know that we're doing what we can. And I feel like that's something that I've seen in Denmark a number of times, and I really, really love that spirit of people of how can we take the responsibility of what's happening and make a change in our daily lives to work towards a better future.

SPEAKER 2

That's true. Yeah, that's definitely something Denmark is known for. Or danes are known for: complaining, but also acting upon that complaint until something is done. So, yeah, I like that. Great connection there.

SPEAKER 1

And then, obviously, I just think the US is crazy. Like, I completely agree with you that it's just. Trump is, it's like watching a terrible movie, just watching it unfold. So anything we can do to kind of slow it down, even just a little bit, I think, can only be a good thing.

SPEAKER 2

I swear we're in a Simpsons episode. Like, this is just, this is all a joke. This cannot be real.

SPEAKER 1

I, look, we've moved into Family Guy because it's getting more and more inappropriate, I think, as it goes on. 

SPEAKER 2

That's a good one. 

SPEAKER 1

But let's not dive into the Trump hole. We're all stuck in the Trump hole often enough. Will we move on to the next topic? 

SPEAKER 2

Hm hm

SPEAKER 1

So the next topic we're talking about is Denmark wants to ban phones in schools and reform childhood. 

So this is basically up until now Denmark has been hesitant, I think, to put any legislation around phones or personal devices when it comes to schools and it very much left it up to the individual schools to decide on those policies. 

But now they're planning to ban mobile phones and personal tablets in schools and after-school programs. And that's coming from there were a number, I think it was 35, key recommendations from, There is a Danish word, I will choose not to butcher it, but it means the well-being commission. So that's kind of looking into the well-being of young people in Denmark. 

And basically there was a study that showed that one in three students in sixth and eighth grade experienced being distracted by digital devices such as mobile phones during  classes. 

So now Denmark is saying we're going to put legislation in place so that schools become a phone and tablet free zone so that even when kids are having free time, they're not going to have phones to be able to take out and distract themselves with. 

So that's what's going on.

SPEAKER 2

What's gonna happen? People are actually gonna have to interact with their classmates and not on the phones. Oh no!

SPEAKER 1

There's gonna be so much small talk. They're gonna talk about the weather. Oh!!

SPEAKER 2

They're gonna be like, wait. Is this how it was in the olden days? As a millennial, I'm just like, yeah.

I think this is also great, to be honest. When I found the statistics that 94% of young people actually have a social media platform before the age of 13.

SPEAKER 1

That's so scary.

SPEAKER 2

I was like, wait, what? That is really sad, guys. 13?

 At the age of 10, I was outside. they had to drag me in the house. Like, I can't imagine just being in front of, like, I was getting bruises and falling into thorn bushes. 

Like, I I I'm just. I think it's been amazing, the digital transformation. Don't get me wrong, I am a techie person, but I've also feel like they have been robbed of the childhood that is without, like, this constant, you know, social media exposure and, like, comparing themselves and being exposed to all kinds of dangers that we did not necessarily were supposed to when we were their age.

So I don't know. I feel like it's the government's responsibility to ensure the protection of its citizens and that means even the young people. I know a lot of young people are gonna be like, how dare you? It's my phone, my rights. 

And I get that, sweetheart, but. You know, we just want the best for you. Us old people.

SPEAKER 1

Yes, all of us.

SPEAKER 2

Yes, all of us, even the strangers who have to listen to you on the bus.

SPEAKER 1

I do, I think, I agree with you, I think it's a move in the right direction. I think I have a little bit of a question mark over it, in the sense that they're saying like, okay, we're gonna get rid of smart phones and tablets, which I think is a good move, as you say, kind of We've all become, but I think particularly young people, are stuck in our phones and stuck in our screens and we're just not really experiencing the real world. But at the same time, I do think the real, I think the real problem is social media, like you're saying. 

So obviously mobile phones and tablets, they can access those things. But at the same time, you know, I think I checked in with my Danish partner, you do have a laptop from sixth grade. So like you still have access to things. You're still on a screen. So it does seem a little like, okay, I do think there needs to be legislation brought in. I do think the government needs to intervene. I do think we kind of need to look at social media a bit like we look at smoking. It's something that was released onto the world with no regulations, with no information or education on, how do we be safe? 

How do we keep our children safe? Like, I'm not a parent, but if I was a parent, I would be so terrified about everything that my child can access through these devices and like that school is a time when they can obviously they're in classes but you can't monitor them all the time or kids tend to know technology better than parents, so they know how to work around or delete their history and all that kind of stuff so I'm kind of like I see they're moving in the right direction but why they're choosing devices to ban them in schools but not there's like a recommendation that children shouldn't be given a smartphone or tablet before they're 13. 

But I'm like, why are we not looking at social media? Because that's something that we can put an age restriction on. 

Australia did, I think in November last year, you can't have a social media profile until you're 16. So I do think that's the better way to go because that's where the regulation problem is. And I think that's where a lot of the terrible things on the internet come from. 

Where, say, if you have a mobile device, you know, just thinking of my own neurotic mother, I'm like, that would have been really nice for her that I could say, this is where I am, or she could see where I was and know I was safe. or just, I think she was always convinced I was running away to do drugs, but I was usually just down the road. We used to sit by it, we used to go from one bench to another bench and then we'd sit on the ground. Like there really was no danger.

So there are good things about mobile phones, so I am a little bit like, I agree that you should step in, but I don't know why you're focusing on the devices and not about regulating like social media platforms and access. 

SPEAKER 1

That's actually a really good conversation to have.

I know Finland has incorporated in their school, teaching on how to identify fake news, which is something they start early on already in like primary school. So I think something like that if Denmark could look towards Finland and see the effects of such courses or programs in schools to like incorporate into such a ban, right? 

So it's not just we're not just taking away your device for eight hours a day, but as you're saying, we're also making sure that you're informed, you know the dangers of being online, and maybe also the positive things you can use your phone for. 

Like your phone is not just there for social media, right? Like there's also access to e-learning, there is, you know, teachers can give homework online on computers, as you were saying. 

So it's like digital skills are important, but unfortunately it opens new doors and new worries and anxieties. 

I am a parent. I am worried. I'm not gonna lie.

SPEAKER 1

Oh my God, I'm sorry. If you weren't worried, before. 

SPEAKER 2

No, no. I am worried. But I've definitely done my research as a parent. 

But I also understand that, there are immigrant parents who don't necessarily have the know-how to devices like their children have or have the time or capacity to find out because, you know, they're working, they have other concerns. They probably have more kids than I do. I only have one. So there's just so much going on. 

But I do think that it's nice that the schools are like, you know, like this is becoming legislation and that schools now have to all be under one type of policy, but the conversation needs to be moved further and maybe even involve the kids when you're doing stuff like this. 

Don't just throw it upon them, but like maybe have small workshops and be like, you know, what are some things that you experience in terms of like having your phone in school and and some of the feelings that will arise now that someone I know when I was a substitute teacher, we used to have these boxes. 

I was a substitute teacher in Denmark for almost five years. We used to like put their phones in a box.

SPEAKER 1

Oh yeah. like a phone hotel.

SPEAKER 2

So as soon as they. Yeah, exactly. 

So as soon as they came in the, the classroom, they would just, like, put their device and then close it. I really liked that as well.

Of course, there was not all schools, but a few of them that I went to, I felt like it, it, it relatively worked. And I think young people really just wanna have fun and be kids. 

I think I've read somewhere that the anxiety level of gen Z's It's actually quite high and I think it's not just social media but also the exposure to like a lot of news around the world. 

So as you said, like it's a lot: we need to dig deeper in order to help, especially because they want their concerns about children's mental health and well-being. So we need to dig deeper.

SPEAKER 1

Yeah, and I think like workshops are a really good idea and kind of including them too because I think there needs to be a level of understanding that we don't know what young people use social media for in the sense of.

When I was younger and I had a phone, I was texting my friends and I was just talking to them, asking them stupid questions like what are you doing? Which like we were all teenagers, what else would we be doing except texting each other?

SPEAKER 2

Exactly.

SPEAKER 1

And then like even now like I am on my phone a lot of the time but it's usually to talk to people from home or I'm listening to audiobooks so like but I'm definitely not the same as you know whoever is in eighth grade and has free devices and using whatever.

So it is like, are they using it for information? Is it for connection? Or are they just getting bombarded with all these messages about everything to be afraid of and everything that's going wrong? 

And it is a case of, I think it's hard for us to think from their point of view because, like, the anxiety levels are something that i've also been reading about, and it's hugely concerning. 

But then when you think about it, you know, we, like, I think I started using the internet regularly. Got it started with MSN, but then even then it was so new and everything was so slow. And then even accessing news, if I didn't go looking for it, I wasn't gonna find it. And I was a teenager, so I only cared about myself, so I did not Google anything about other places in the world.

But then, but now, if I even just like open Facebook, and you need to have Facebook in Denmark for some reason, they love Facebook here. That was the biggest culture shock I had when I moved here. But even if I just open it to yeah, Facebook is dead in Ireland. Like, my just parents use it to post strange things, like, I went to the supermarket today. Weird things like that. And then you come here and you can't find any information if you're not on Facebook. Bizarre. 

But anyway, like, I just open it to look at, oh, when is my next book club? Then I can see, like, you know, everything that's going on in America. Anything that's going on with climate change, there's an asteroid that I have been hearing about that may or may not hit somewhere on Earth. I don't know.

But then it's when all of this is there and you haven't grown up in a safe world or like, say, I've grown up in a safe world because I wasn't listening to all this news and I was safe.

But then you have people now who are safe, but they're hearing about how unsafe the world is all the time. I can see why they're so anxious and why everything seems so terrible, even just all the things that are like, preparations for war. And obviously, like, there's nothing we can really do except see what happens and hope that there isn't a war. 

But if you're just a child in school and you're just focusing on studying and then you're being told the war, the war, the war, like, of course, like, things like schoolwork are going to seem pretty damn meaningless. 

So, yeah, I don't. I think we need to kind of step back and talk to them and be like, what are you using social media for? What do you get from this? And then finding out, how they can get that from somewhere else, because they're obviously getting dopamine hits. They're obviously getting something from being on their phones, as we all are, and it's not healthy.

So how do we, you know, I can see, okay, I spent way too much time on my phone today. I need to go outside. But young people don't have that. 

So how do we show them you can get the same thing you're getting from your phone from something else? I feel like that's the big education piece that's missing. 

Or like you're saying in Finland, like, that's fantastic that they're learning about how to like look for fake news, we probably need that too. 

But also like, you know, spotting if something's done by AI, that's going to become pretty important very soon, or is already probably. But the AI is very bad with hands, so I think the world has kind of caught on. But if you just look at the hands and it looks like a foot for some reason, it's probably AI.

SPEAKER 2

No, that's actually a really good point, like preparing them for the AI era that is upon us. 

It's only gonna get better and better, so yeah. 

And I just really hope that they move towards including young people in the discussions.

SPEAKER 1

Yeah, well, the young people will be old people eventually, so they'll get involved somewhere if they're not too anxious. 

But will we move on to the last topic then?

And that is... The government got into trouble this week after they classified adoptees from abroad as immigrants. So this is something that kind of unfolded over the last few days this week and it's just ridiculous.

SPEAKER 2

I think this is absolutely wild. Like I'm just, I'm shocked. Like I'm actually genuinely shocked. 

Like what country has ever done this? 

I mean, I stand to be corrected. If there is a country that has done this, please let me know. You can find me.

 But still, like what Denmark?

SPEAKER 1

Yeah, this was, and there rightly so again, like was so much outrage over this and there should have been, so I suppose just to kind of step back because it obviously happened over a number of days, so there was gonna be an update to the workfare policy in Denmark, so that's where if you're coming from outside Denmark you need to contribute to society to get the welfare, and that usually do that through working or internships or whatever for a certain number of hours per week, and up until now that's only gone back to people who entered Denmark since January 2008, but now they want to put it back to the 2nd of April 1968. So it applies to anybody who was coming to Denmark.

SPEAKER 2

In 1968?

SPEAKER 1

I know. That's weird that they picked 2nd of April for some reason. That's actually when the CPR number system came in, because I was like, why the 2nd of April? Why does it feel so suspicious? But basically in trying to change this or make this what seems like kind of a smaller update to a policy. 

They basically said that people who were adopted by Danish people in Denmark. So, like, when Danish people adopted someone from another country, they basically said they don't count as Danish people in this new legislation. It's like, how, like, this is, like, beyond an oversight. 

Like, how, how could you possibly have made this mistake? And it's, it's, there's so many, like, heartbreaking stories of people being, like, well am I still Danish now? Do I still count as Danish? When obviously they are Danish, they have grown up in Denmark, they are just 100% Danish people.

So it's just, I think even there's like that crazy politician, what's his name? It's like Nick Zimmerman or something, even he's outraged and he doesn't seem like a great person. So that's, I think that's like a huge.

SPEAKER 2

Yeah, I think it's actually wild, especially because all the conversation around international adoption and the banning of international adoption And that was created because the adoptees were actually coming out and talking about their experience, you know, being adopted in Denmark and not feeling as part of the society and losing part of their identity to be adopted in Denmark. And then now the government is like, yeah, we hear how you feel and you're actually not Danish. Like, what? Like, way to validate my emotions. I'm just like, this cannot be real. 

First of all, if you're born in Denmark and you're not born to at least one Danish parent, so like Danish citizen, you're already not considered Danish. So there's actually quite a few people who are probably like born to parents who are, what's it called,  permanent residency, who are stateless. that's already won. And they've been really fighting for that because you're raised in Denmark your entire life, you know no other country than Denmark. 

And then two, those people who were adopted, if we're going back to like 1968, were probably adopted as babies. 

So are you saying that a baby didn't like has to contribute to society in order to get like when what are we starting or should they be teenagers and start contributing before they can qualify? 

like, I just feel like it's getting, it's getting a lot. It's, it's, it's getting to be a lot. I think this access to certain rights and services, I do understand that they, like, the government feels people are abusing the welfare system. But we also have to understand that whether you're a citizen or not, you still contribute, that you still pay taxes. Anybody who has a you know, CPR number pays taxes.

SPEAKER 1

yeah

SPEAKER 2

So it's, I'm kind of like, this is really, I understand the outrage and I sympathize a lot and I'm just like, I don't think this should even have come up. I think there are other priorities they could have focused on.

SPEAKER 1

Yeah, I think the big question is like, how could they let this happen? 

So like obviously with all of the outrage, they're scrambling around to kind of contain the damage and be like, look, we're gonna fix it, we're gonna look at it. It's like, okay, but you're making a law. What did you check? What have you looked into? Has this been checked thoroughly to make sure there are no other parties that are going to be affected that absolutely shouldn't? I agree as well in the sense of like, okay, I see where they're coming from in changing the policy and updating it to make sure no one's taking advantage of the welfare system. But I do wonder, like, in Ireland, I do think the Irish government is very, very good at making us blame the people who have nothing. So it is like, okay, there are people in Ireland who abuse the welfare system, but our welfare system isn't very good. It's not like they have a lot. They're not getting a lot out of it. It's not a good quality of life. and like it's very easy to demonize, you know, those people. But then actually I saw something that was quite interesting that said really it's the people on welfare who are putting almost a hundred percent of the money they get back into society because they have so little. So like that I get paid, obviously I pay my taxes, but then I have money at the end of the month, but I also have savings, I go on holidays, things like that. So my money goes to other places, but if I'm on welfare, I don't have a lot, so I am spending all the money on the essentials that are food, and things around me that are going back into the society.

SPEAKER 2

And you can't travel.

SPEAKER 1

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER 2

We need to get that approved.

SPEAKER 1

This is giving me kind of reminding me of Home, where it's like, oh, we're kind of demonizing a group of people who really don't have a lot, and kind of making sure they can't get any more than the bare minimum. So I don't love that in the first place. But the fact that this just made such this huge oversight for these people who are absolutely Danish citizens, that tells me that they're not paying attention to this law. And that kind of tells me that the rhetoric around this law just feels a little more insidious than you want your laws to be. Like, it doesn't feel like the good of Denmark necessarily if they're going to make a big mistake like that. And then suddenly be like, oh, no, no, we're gonna change it. And it's like, this mistake shouldn't have been made in the first place. Do you have adult supervision for this law?

SPEAKER 2

Priorities, people. Priorities. But also, I'm just thinking as a parent how I would feel for someone to tell me that my child that I adopted, like parents don't adopt their children thinking, yeah, this is, you know, this is a separate child from my child. It's not really my child, you know? Like most people who adopt go in thinking, this is my child and they raise them as their children. Which means: if I'm Danish, you're Danish. Like we're a Danish family. So for the government to be like, Nope, you signing papers does not make your child Danish. It's just, it's a bit inconsiderate. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER 1

Inconsiderate? Absolute nonsense? Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER 2

I'm just trying to be really nice here, because Yeah, this kind of shocked me a little bit, so... 

SPEAKER 1

Yeah, this feels. Like a Trump level kind of mistake. So it's like, yeah, Denmark, you can do better. You know better than this.

SPEAKER 2

Yeah, come on now, Denmark. But yeah.

SPEAKER 1

But yeah, so those are our three topics for this week of Last Week in Denmark podcast. Do you want to say anything else?

SPEAKER 2

I just want to say thank you for everyone that is listening and look forward to the newsletter coming out.

SPEAKER 1

Yes! And thank you for the lovely podcast co-hosting.

SPEAKER 2

Yeah, thank you too. It was much fun.

SPEAKER 1

We're very fun, that's true. Until next time.

SPEAKER 2

Until next time. 



People on this episode

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LWID

Host
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Golda Fania

Guest
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Katie Burns

Guest