Last Week in Denmark

Denmark’s Democracy Deal, Market Shock & Schools: LWIDS5E4

Season 5 Episode 4

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Cross-party politics, market reactions and education reform in Denmark: Fionn and Kalpita, internationals living in Denmark, discuss a week where there was a rare cross-party agreement to protect democratic participation, a sharp market reaction to major Danish company results, and a proposal to cap primary school class sizes at 14 pupils. 

Topics:

(05:49) Broad Danish Cross-Party Deal

(13:44) Brutal reactions to the Danish Industrial Giants accounts

(20:53) Proposal of hard cap of 14 students in Danish primary classes


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Fionn

Hello and welcome to the award-winning Last Week in Denmark podcast, where each week we talk through some of the top stories that happened last week in Denmark. We focus on how they impact internationals here. So if that sounds like you, well then, welcome home. You are in the right place, and we are very glad to have you. My name is Fionn O’Toole, and joining me this week for episode 4 of season 5 is Kalpita Bhosale. And this week we're going to be looking at a broad agreement across politics on eight initiatives that are aimed to help politicians and political candidates. We're going to look at a rather brutal stock market reaction to the Danish industrial giant's 2025 accounts, and we're going to look at a proposed hard cap of 14 students per class in Danish primary schools for the younger grades. And that's going to start in 2028. Before we get going though, we would like to ask you one thing. If what we're talking about resonates with you, please leave us a comment on Spotify or on YouTube. Leave us a review, give us 5 stars, whatever it is you want to do. But we're here to help internationals in Denmark stay informed and feel connected. And all of that actually really helps us reach more people just like you. So, I'm joined, like I said, by Kalpita. Hi, Kalpita. How are you doing? 

Kalpita

Hey! I'm trying to stay cozy in this snowstorm. How about you? 

Fionn

You know what, right now, I'm very cozy. My basement is probably too warm, if anything. That is me revealing that I record this in my basement like some sort of troll person. But yeah, it's nice and warm inside, but it is pretty rough outside. And I hope by the time our listeners are listening to this episode, all the snow has disappeared, and everybody is, you know, relaxing in some nicer, almost spring weather. But right now there is 25, 30 centimeters of snow in plenty of places, and potentially more to fall tonight. It might be, might be rain, which might melt the snow. Let's see. But yeah, it was a rough school run this morning. 

Kalpita

I mean, it's going to be a rough weekend as well, but I do hope that we do have snow, but the wind is something I don't want. I'm happy with calmer winds. Snow, I don't mind. I don't mind walking in slush. I don't mind walking in slippery streets. I do mind slipping and having wind in my face. 

Fionn

I… yeah, I had to push a buggy yesterday through, through the snow, through the snowstorm. My daughter, who's nearly 3, was not loving life. Getting it full blast with the wind particularly, but pushing through the snow in some spots, I felt like I was about to pass out. Maybe that's just a cruel indictment on my fitness level, but maybe it takes these things to reveal our inner character or lack thereof in my case. 

Kalpita

Did you guys try sledding? 

Fionn

You know what, we haven't yet this time. I think if the snow stays nice this weekend, we will. A few weeks ago when we had the, kind of, first round of snow, which was fairly light. You know, you could still see the grass in many places. We did go to some of the hills up at Amagerstrand Park. So if anybody went to the Ed Sheeran concerts that were there, those were the hills that people were standing on to look into the concert for free. And they were absolutely jammed. And that was really nice. We didn't spend a huge amount of time because it was pretty windy and pretty cold, but my son went down a few times and loved it. And since then, the sled has kind of been out in the garden sitting on the grass, and my daughter gets on it and yells at us to pull her around. 

Kalpita

That's sweet. But it is fun nonetheless. 

Fionn

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's very pretty to look out at. The thing that always confuses me is it reflects so much of the moonlight. So, you know, I woke up during the night, I just needed to use the bathroom, and I was really confused at what time it actually was because everything looked so bright out and yet still, you know, very, very gray and silvery. But it's just, yeah, like extra ambient lighting for… for your back garden. 

Kalpita

The wonders of the Northern Hemisphere weather.

Fionn

Yeah, I mean, how is that for, for you as someone from the Southern Hemisphere? Am I right in that? Or a more southerly part of the Northern Hemisphere? 

Kalpita

I'm not sure what hemisphere we come in, but India does not have snow where I come from. I come from the west of India. So for me, having been in Copenhagen for ten years, I have never experienced snow like this. Especially snow that is at least 15 centimeters high and stays for days. So this has been very, very enlightening in a different way, and a little tiny hope that every year it snows as much, minus the wind. Let's see.

Fionn

Where I come from in Ireland, we get bad weather. We normally have worse weather than Denmark, but more in just, in terms of rain than anything else. So snow is also something of a novelty, but we do not know how to handle it at all. You could get a really light dusting of snow, and all public transport will be cancelled. And there'll be a talk about, like, “we need to get the army out to salt the streets,” because we've just no idea how to do it. And people go crazy and bulk buy. But they bulk buy, like, milk and sliced bread. You know, the things that will go off the fastest? So yeah, we just don't know how to handle it. 

Kalpita

But hey, they got their priorities right. Bread is life. 

Fionn

Bread is life. Well, we should probably get on to the topics that people are actually tuning in to listen to us talk about.

Kalpita

Yes, let's do. 

Fionn

And we're going to start with the first one, and that is that a broad majority in the Danish Folketing, that's the Danish parliament, have agreed on a package of eight initiatives that are aimed at strengthening legal and practical safeguards around democratic participation, especially for elected representatives. So that could be members of the Folketing, but also public employees, their families, and even people who are running for office. And when I say this was a broad majority, it was the Social Democrats, Venstre, and Moderatene—those are the three parties in government—but also Demokratis Demokratene, the Socialist Folk Party, the Conservative Folk Party, and Radikale Venstre. So support from the three government parties, and then you could say across the political spectrum as well. And I don't know, is this something that crossed your radar this week? 

Kalpita

Not at all, because who gives a shit about politicians? But I also don't understand why there is a need for… for strengthening this side of things. I do understand that there is a certain level of protection needed, and we of course need to safeguard the people who are making our very good and not-so-good policies as well. But there has to be something that triggered it, something with their families and close ones, which is quite unfair. 

Fionn

Yeah, well, it doesn't come out of nowhere. So among all the different parties, there is growing concerns that fewer people want to run for local office. A lot of politicians have had to limit their public presence or not quite go into hiding, but almost quit going out in public altogether. And there have been threats increasingly kind of spilling over to children and the partners of politicians. These are primarily online threats, and you generally have a harsher tone on social media. And there have been some specific cases of Danish officials receiving threats. But there's also many… you could say, international examples at the moment of democratic backsliding and, yeah, intimidation of politicians. So this is probably more preemptive than in the face of intimidation that has really become normalised. But I do think it's quite telling, for me, that it's such a broad cross-party deal. And this was announced by the Justice Ministry. So I think the aim is more about protecting democracy. Now that might sound dramatic, but democratic participation, than just the politicians themselves or individual politicians themselves. 

Fionn

Did you know that the Last Week in Denmark newsletter is available in eight languages? Hey there, this is Fionn from the Last Week in Denmark podcast, and every week you guys are tuning in to hear me and my fellow co-hosts talk about the top news of the week in English. But let's be real. We're all internationals, so not only are you speaking English every day, you're probably also speaking a bit of Danish. But you've probably also got your own native language as well, like the multilingual master you are. So why not treat yourself to the luxury of being able to read Danish news each week in your own native language? So head on over to lastweekdk.substack.com. That's lastweekdk.substack.com. And sign up for our newsletter delivered to you every single Sunday. 

Kalpita

It makes sense because I was watching this… I don't know, it's like a dinner with politicians or some, some random show on DR where one of the ministers was asked that he's reduced his social media presence, and he's doing less videos and stuff like that to engage with people, and his reply was, that's because he's not very happy with the reactions, and there's a need for taking accountability for it. Especially from people who are… one thing to have an opinion and to say that you don't like a certain thing, but it's another to threaten and be abusive.

Fionn

Absolutely. You know, my father is a journalist, and something he's always kind of lived by or said, you know, that he's very, very privileged to have that kind of public platform, right? Where he gets to give his opinion on things and people read it or hear about it. But what he's always said is if you have that platform, you also have to be accountable to it or be willing to accept criticism or, you know, feedback or pushback on the things that you say. And I think, you know, he was a… not a politician, sorry, a journalist for many, many years. So, he's probably got a thick enough skin. But I do think you maybe cut to the heart of the issue there, that it… you know, feedback or people disagreeing is one thing, but it is where it veers into actual threats, you know, threats… threats of violence or intimidation. And that is, I think, maybe where some of the critiques have come in, or maybe what critics might worry about is, well, what actually counts as a political opinion or a counter-political opinion versus harassment? Or will people kind of self-censor? They won't actually tell a politician to do their job or to what they think of them because they're worried that it could be interpreted as intimidation. Or even, I'm not saying this is the case, but you could worry that that would potentially have an impact on people's right to protest. 

Kalpita

Yeah. 

Fionn

If that makes sense. You know, well, would police using, kind of, expanded tools raise eyebrows around certain protests? 

Kalpita

It's something we have seen since COVID as well with all the public opinion that came out during that time. But I also see that it's a way of protecting the trust society that Denmark has built with such great effort. And we do have a society where you can directly approach a politician and have a debate or have a question and have a decent conversation with them. And if you're not able to do that, then you're actually at the core of what Danish values are. You're really dismantling it in some way, and, and that's not nice. That's not… I don't feel good about not being able to approach a politician, which is something I can do now. I can write an email, or I can pick up the phone and talk to them, and have a question and, you know, have a satisfactory answer. Whether I like it or not is a whole different story. So in that regard, I think the protection bit comes in at a timely occasion because we are in the election year, and we are… I mean it is state election, and that's going to be a big, big deal with a lot that's at stake. Especially given recent news of all kinds of things that are very, very critical as well. 

Fionn

I actually think that's a really excellent point that you've made, and not necessarily something that I considered when I was first reading this. That, if you say that, critics might worry that it could limit free speech or limit your ability to tell a politician what for. Well, the reverse is also happening, right? If politicians don't feel like they can be in that public space or be approached by people in a safe manner, and I think 99 out of 100 interactions are going to be in a completely safe manner, right? But if that worry is growing, then that absolutely limits the trust and the social cohesion that Denmark is famous for. So I think, yeah, that's definitely something I'll be looking at with… Well, when I hear more about this. Just to quickly go through the kind of elements of the initiatives, there are eight. I'm not going to go through every single one of them, but generally it aims to make sure that politicians, candidates, and public employees can take part in democracy. Well, without fear of threats offline and online. It will mean that politically-motivated crime is punished more harshly. It extends protections to candidates. Also, it extends protections to relatives of politicians or public servants. They'll give some municipal funding to it. There'll be more kind of coordination of threats, and there'll be a focus, I think, on online threats and harassment as well. I think the key thing, or the two key things for me, maybe, that are quite interesting, is it sits under Denmark's existing free speech laws, so it's not going to replace anything. And the penalties around it are really aimed at hinging on the intent and motivation rather than just disagreement itself. So yeah, I think as we know, democracy is under threat in so many societies, and Denmark is luckily such an open democracy and a full democracy. So, while I think of course there could be things to critique about this, I think the broad cross-party support on this probably reflects that this isn't such a bad idea. 

Kalpita

Absolutely.

Fionn

On the other hand, there have been some pretty brutal reactions to the Danish industrial giants' 2025 accounts. And this comes after several years of quite generally well-received annual results. But investors really hit the brakes hard this week, as a number of Denmark's biggest companies presented their 2025 accounts. Included companies like Novo Nordisk, Demant, and Mærsk. And a number of these took pretty big tumbles. 

Kalpita

No surprise there. I mean, they've been firing people as well, and they seem to be continuing to fire people. Especially all of the big Danish giants are doing that. Well, we did speak about how Ørsted had support from the government, and now they have got their US project cleared as well. But it seems that Rockwool is the only company that has done well, or decently well, and has got positive reactions from the investors. But this also means, and I think I really spoke about this in the previous episode, is that it's going to have a ripple effect in the coming few years. Even if the performance right now shows that it's not doing well, but it's going to affect the, the larger economy and companies and how they function because corporate world itself is also going through an upheaval. But also is going to see a change in the way corporate is perceived and functions. 

Fionn

Absolutely. I think, you know, we are living through… upheaval is the word with AI, and how many companies are investing in AI, how many companies are trying to have AI transformation projects, and how many companies are also failing at that. I think there's huge turbulence in the kind of global markets at the moment, and a lot of companies are feeling that. Some are, I think, putting a lot of their expectations that AI is going to save everything, or all of their growth is going to kind of come from that. And there are others that are, I think, investing a lot of money in and really failing to deliver anything, and probably quite an overlap between them. You mentioned Rockwool, and they did see their shares rise after delivering pretty solid results. So investors were quite calm about them. But Novo Nordisk was hit the hardest. It was down about 24% in two days, basically warning of falling sales and profits mostly next year due to US price pressures and competition. Maybe this is very basic to a lot of listeners if they are investors, but it's kind of the difference between, maybe, the headline profits, which are telling you what a company did, but then the actual guidance. And the guidance is more, what are investors thinking will happen? And so we sometimes even see companies that do well, they outperform their targets. You could say they aced the exam, but then everybody thinks they maybe look unprepared for the next exam, right? So if a company smashes its Q2 results, but investors thought they should do even better, they could really see their stock prices going down. And I think this isn't specifically a Danish thing. We're kind of seeing markets globally shifting all over, as you mentioned. And I think even today, I was reading the news that Deutsche Bank are saying that a lot of the slumps they're seeing now in software and AI firms are reminding them very much of the pattern that we saw before the dot-com bubble burst. And if you're a younger listener, you might not remember what the dot-com bubble was, but it was certainly one of the bubbles during the late '90s, early 2000s. Not quite as terrible, I think, as the global financial crisis, but nonetheless, it wiped out a lot of companies. What do you think? Are we heading towards a bubble popping? 

Kalpita

I think so. I mean, the market has always shown that it is very capable of recovering and growing. It has only grown over the years with little bumps on the way, and this is just going to be yet another bump on the way, and it's going to recover as well. It does take time. It takes a lot of patience. It takes a lot of losses for a lot of people. But if you are… if you have a sticky personality and you hold on to it, then probably you're, you're in for a game changer. I'm not a trading expert or anything like that, but I do know through history that we do recover. I don't think this is something as big as the dot-com scenario. AI is most certainly trying to be a revolutionary factor, but I think it's… it's just economic upheaval across the globe created by the US in this case. And all the many wars, and all the many trade deals that have been happening is also reason for this. I mean, the EU-India trade that we have read about in the news, which I hope people have, is also going to contribute to that. People are moving away from China and the Russian oil, and we are also investing in wind energy, for example, to move away our dependency on the giants of the world that are running certain industries and certain aspects of, just society in general, and how we function as a… as a global economy. So I think most of these factors are contributing towards the market as well, and the investor intentions, positivity. This also means that investors could be looking at other potential industries to invest in as well. Defense has become a very popular market choice or investing choice as well. Safe industries like pharma and medicine have shown that they are very capable of being vulnerable. They are capable of being copied. So the interest is shifting from them to other parts of industry that is not pharma.

Fionn

Yeah, and I think if you're listening to this and thinking, well, all those reasons you guys have talked about sound very global, but why does Denmark feel like it's really been hit this week? It's probably because a lot of Danish companies are very exposed to these factors. So if we think about US politics and then the, kind of, regulatory risks and copied products, that certainly has affected the pharma growth. But even things like the dropping demand in shipping, well, that's going to take a huge company like Mærsk, and I think they warned that prices could stay low for years due to too many ships chasing too few containers. So it's not that Denmark is doing badly necessarily. Globally, investors are kind of losing patience with some uncertainty, and Danish companies are just very exposed to some of those risks that everyone else is worrying about. So yeah, I think so far we've talked a lot about turbulent times. Maybe we can try and end things on a slightly warmer note, which is the proposal from the Social Democrats led by the Prime Minister, who wants to introduce a hard cap of 14 students per class in Danish primary schools. And that's from grades 0 to 1st grade, 2nd grade, and 3rd grade. And this would be a really big reduction from current maximum class sizes, which I believe is 26 in those grades. And the idea is that this reform would help improve early learning outcomes. Reduce that kind of “school refusal” as they call it. So where kids don't want to go to school and kind of not break that habit with going to school, but don't form a relationship of actually going to school and investing in education. And obviously they also want to create calmer classroom environments where there's less firefighting, maybe, and more actual quality learning time. Now, they say this is going to cost around 5 billion kronor a year. It would require more than 4,000 additional teachers, and schools would also need, potentially, significant physical expansions since many of the actual buildings might lack the space for additional classrooms. So, I don't know, what are your thoughts on this? It… I think there's a great headline, but some of the logistics of this sound really challenging to me.

Kalpita

Absolutely. I mean, it is a very costly proposal from the looks of it, and it is very outright declared that it is an election proposal. It is a proposal that's going to be one of the top reasons or topics during elections. And this, they have done in the past as well, since 2013-14, I think, and they have seen some results towards it. But one of the biggest factors in making this proposal a success is to propose where the money is coming from, and how are they going to lure teachers to come back into the public system from the private system? Because it's a lot to do about infrastructure. At the same time, it's more to do about salaries and how they're going to be able to sustain. It's also a very big change to move from 24-26 students to 14 students, which is a big, big reduction as well. Which means more classrooms, more teachers, of course. What I am curious about though is, what about kids with slow learning or special needs at that young age? 

Fionn

Yeah, I think it is… you know, as you mentioned, it's a very big difference both logistically, but I think also educationally to be having a class of, say, 26 kids and a class of 14 kids. From a positive side, what I would say is… and actually, I thought it was a little bit funny that when Mette Fredriksen made this announcement, she was in Pilgårskø, I think, in Tornby, which is not so far from where I live. And announcing, you know, cutting school classes down to 14. It's like… you're almost cutting the class sizes in half. But she didn't do that in my son's school where he's in a class of 16 kids. But I think maybe that's because the school had a bad reputation once upon a time. So not as many parents are sending their kids to school. And I think the school is great. I think he's a wonderful class and wonderful teachers. So I think we've just caught a sweet spot of former bad reputation giving us the pre-2028 small class size. But my point in that, which I'll eventually get to, is when I was in school as a kid in Ireland, and Ireland, relatively wealthy country at the time, there was 32 kids in my class in primary school from the time I was, you know, four, starting off, until I was whatever, 12… leaving, leaving school there. And I do see quite a marked difference because that was 32 kids and one teacher, and he's in a classroom with 16 kids and at least two, but sometimes three adults in there with them as well. And I do think they get a lot more time individually. I do think they, yeah, maybe get a more holistic learning experience. And, you know, like any parent, I was quite nervous about him starting school. Like, how's it going to be? Is it going to be a big change? Is it suddenly going to go from fun, relaxing times in børnehave, a bit more unstructured, to stress and everything? And that hasn't been the case. And he's really loved going, and I can kind of see his brain flourishing, which is really nice. But as you mentioned, it's a big cut down, and there does need to be huge amounts of money and, like, actual people invested in this, right? There's already staffing shortages in many municipalities, especially outside the major cities. And that is one thing that we see. We're in Tornby Kommune, but if you go across the road and down another 100 meters, you're in København Kommune and the salaries are better because you are in the city. And the government had kind of said that there are up to 40,000 people, you know, who are trained teachers who are not teaching today and they need to lure them back in. 

Kalpita

Yeah, that's true. 

Fionn

I do wonder a little bit, you know, why are those people not teaching today? It's probably not only because class sizes are at 26.

Kalpita

Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's, that's, that's the major concern for me thinking about if and when I have kids and if they were to go to school, I would want a teacher who's motivated to be there. I would want a child to be in a school where the teacher's interested and is getting equally out of being a teacher as much as the kid is. So that's critical. I mean, of course, there should be investments in… in the infrastructure and all of that. But if the teacher herself or himself is not motivated enough to be there for whatever salary reasons, for infrastructure, for the amount of kids they're teaching, and to be able to get enough resources to to support these children, right? I also read that one of the investments is also going to be to increase physical books and less dependence on technology and other resources to help students feel supported in their learning, especially the Danish language and mathematics. I most certainly want my child to be able to count and add and subtract because I come from India, and if my kid is not able to do basic math, come on. 

Fionn

You're saying the stereotype is true of the strict Indian parent? 

Kalpita

Absolutely. I mean, it's… I think mathematics to most extent is life skill, and he or she should most certainly be able to hold a pen or pencil and be able to write with their hands. Basic, basic things. 

Fionn

Absolutely. I mean, I'm the black sheep in my family in that I'm the only one who hasn't been some form of teacher.

Kalpita

You don't say?

Fionn

Clearly, clearly I'm the idiot. The idiot child. But, I mean, I think what's interesting with this and what needs to be stated is that teachers unions and many, many school leaders have really come out in support of smaller class sizes in principle. I think most of the criticism is around the plan not having a very clear funding model. And I did actually see, what was interesting, the mayor of Dragør commune, Kenneth Gøtterup, who I believe is from the Conservative Folk Party, he was very critical of this. Now maybe it's just political point scoring, but I thought he actually had some interesting kind of breakdowns or examples, basically saying that each new class, because you would need new classes of course, would cost around 1.25 million Danish kroner per year. And saying that, how is that actually going to be funded in principle for a small municipality? Because without state compensation, you could not absorb that. And, you know, without the kind of full funding from the state, the reforms would force, actually, cuts in other welfare areas that a kommune has to handle as well, such as eldercare, but also things like culture or leisure services. So I think that kind of… well, one, of course, how is the funding actually going to work? That's a really key question. That's kind of always the key question. And to your point about counting, in politics you need to be able to count, whether that's counting votes or making a budget add up. But I think, you know, personally, I see my kid thriving in a smaller class size. I think it's a good idea. But, you know, it of course needs to be balanced across care for the elderly in a kommune, as an example, right? Not that it's one or the other. And I do think the point on schools, the physical space and having expansions or building new schools, is certainly a question that needs to be answered.

Kalpita

Absolutely. I mean, when you mentioned that the budget will probably come from somewhere else also makes me think that I read another news on job centers, and now they're going to become more localized, and every kommune gets to decide what aspect of the job center they want to keep and how they want to help people and all of that that's involved in a job center. And that could also include not having a job center in itself because they need to allocate budget to something else. So a lot of critical decisions in terms of budget and where the money is going to come from is also going to be dependent. Although we are talking 2027, when we actually see the effects of all of this, because we have to go through this proposal at the Parliament. For that, we need to go to the election. It needs to be proposed, debated, discussed, finalized, and then it's going to be. So a lot of things to, to look forward to, expect, and debates. But I do hope they consider these things and they, and all the very smart parties, debate these very, very clever ideas we just discussed. 

Fionn

You know, this feels like a conversation that doesn't necessarily end here. So maybe if you're listening, you know, let us know what you think. If you think we're completely on the money with our skepticism or optimism, or if you think the government is totally off the mark as well. But it is a conversation that's going to be happening, I think, probably up until whenever the next election is, and potentially beyond that, right? Depending on the results of that election. But I feel like we are increasingly getting into election year territory. I think that's about all we have time for today. Kalpita, it's been an absolute pleasure as always chatting about what happened last week in Denmark with you.

Kalpita

Likewise, Fionn. Thank you very much. 

Fionn

And thank you to you for listening and all the team behind the scenes that makes this podcast happen. As I said before, if you like the discussion today, if you enjoyed it, please leave us a review, please rate us, share with a friend, share with an enemy. If you think, you know, something will keep them informed, make them a better person. But more than anything, we just hope you've enjoyed the conversation today. Bye-bye.

Kalpita

Hey, this is Kalpita and Golda, co-hosts of the Last Week in Denmark podcast. Did you know Last Week in Denmark offers sponsored content in the newsletter? Our reporters are producing original articles and content tailored for internationals in Denmark. 

Golda

So if you have a business our readers should know about, let us write about it. Get in touch with us at reporter@lwid.dk. You can also reach out to us on LinkedIn and Instagram at Last Week in Denmark.