Last Week in Denmark

Denmark Corruption Ranking, Nitrate Water Risk and Big Prayer Day Debate: LWID S5E5

• Season 5 • Episode 5

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Is Denmark Really Corruption Free? Water Safety Fears and the Fight Over Big Prayer Day: Denmark tops the global corruption index again, but questions remain about trust, lobbying and who pays when policy choices affect public health. Katie and Kalpita, internationals living in Denmark, are joined by Michael Magee to discuss nitrate pollution in drinking water, rising bowel cancer risk and the political pressure around farming. They also look at whether Big Prayer Day could return and what a new push to protect the Danish language means for daily life. 

Topics:

(02:24) Corruption in Denmark?

(10:38) Nitrates in drinking water and bowel cancer risk

(20:25) Big Prayer Day Fight

(25:59) Big Prayer Day Fight

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Katie
Welcome to this week's episode of Last Week in Denmark. This week it's me, Katie, my wonderful co-host Kalpita, and we have a very exciting guest, Michael Magee, from the National History Museum in Denmark. Thank you very much for joining us, Michael. Do you want to tell us a bit about yourself?

Michael
Yeah, sure thing. First of all, glad to be here. I work at the Natural History Museum. Life in Denmark started about 14 years ago. I came over to study biology in Odense, and then I've had a varied experience since then. I've worked on all kinds of things in culture and making festivals and events and techno parties and science podcasts, but now really happy to be working at the Natural History Museum because I'm really, really passionate about biology, about nature, and about bringing people closer to nature.

Katie
I'm expecting a lot of fun facts from you today, Michael. No pressure-

Michael
Let’s see, let’s see.

Katie
-but I will be checking in all the time. How are you doing, Kelpita? It's been a while. Is this our first episode this year?

Kalpita
This is the first time of the year for us to be hosting together. I'm all right. I'm a bit disappointed from last week because there hasn't been much snow in Copenhagen. I was expecting a proper snowstorm, but I think Bornholm has got all of that. Um, can't complain because, um, it's lovely. The sun is out and, um, hopefully it's going to get even better.

Katie
Did you miss me though? Is that why you're upset? Because you miss me?

Kalpita
Yeah, I mean, Fionn and everyone else is fun, but Katie, you and I, we're thickest friends.

Katie
Yeah, I know. Yeah, but anyway, talking about the podcast, so we have 3 great topics to talk about today. Number 1, corruption in Denmark. For the 8th year in a row, Denmark ranks as the least corrupt in the world in Transparency International's latest index. Then we're going to talk about the 250,000 people that are drinking water with a very high level of nitrates, which could be increasing their chances of bowel cancer. And Big Prayer Day is back on the agenda. 


Kalpita
Woop woop!

Katie
The socialists are talking about reinstating this holiday, and Parliament is basically saying, we're not saying no, but maybe. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. So let's start with corruption in Denmark. So 8 years in a row, least corrupt country in the world. Do we believe that in terms of their ranking? Do we feel that living in the country? What do you think?

Michael
I think so. I think so. I, you know, there's, there's a reason these, these surveys are produced. I don't know much about how they're, they're assessed, but I feel that Danish society is built on trust. And this is my experience in Denmark, but at the same time, this, this trust aspect for how, say, people are employed in Denmark. I think the international community can sometimes misinterpret that as nepotism. I used to live in a collective in Copenhagen with many internationals, and I've heard it time and time again that, yeah, the hiring process, they hired a Dane, they didn't hire me. And I feel it's unfair to the employer to accuse them of nepotism whenever they've hired somebody that they know, because that's how people work. If we know somebody, we're going to bring them into our circle. If we've heard a personal recommendation, we're going to bring them into our circle. And that's how the Danish system is built, I think.

Katie
I don't know how you differentiate there, because networking is very important. That's a global thing. That's not something that's just to Denmark. And then there is an element of, I do think the culture in terms of applying for jobs in Denmark is different. Like, I find their interviews very unstructured, which I find very confusing because I'm like, how do I plug in all the lines to tell you how great I am if I'm just telling you about my life? And then, like, coming from Ireland, it's a very self-deprecating culture, so I'll be like, God, no, but I'm terrible. It's like, no, I'm meant to be brilliant. God, that doesn't really work here.

Michael
I love this system. Like, years ago, I remember doing some interviews in the north of Ireland, and it's so restricted there. There's defined questions, and all 4 interviewers are writing down the notes. And even if you answered question 1 with a fact about yourself, if you didn't include the same fact in question 3, you lost points. And at the same time, I went for an interview in Odense, and I was invited out for a beer tasting after the interview, and it was just very clear how refreshing that was, because not only was the interviewer getting to know me, I was also getting to know them. They were letting their personality shine through. And this is so important, especially in Denmark, because getting along with people is so important for the vibrancy of the office or the shared space. If you don't get along with people, your work's going to suck. So being able to see people's personality in the interview is just so refreshing for me. It might be chaotic, but that's how I personally prefer it.

Katie
I think it's a chaotic energy.

Kalpita
Yeah, but I think there's the structure in the chaos because the process of getting to know each other, whether it's in the interview or after the interview, is so critical. Because when you're in the interview or when you're meeting anybody, you're always putting your best foot forward, right? But when you are taken away from that setup, but in a casual setup like a beer tasting, like you might— you had an experience, Michael— it's so essential that then you have your guards down everyone around you has their guards down, and it's just about having a good time and being social. That's also a very big part of getting to know each other, because that also influences the way you work, your personality, and if you actually get along with the team. But I think corruption is also something that's very evident or not evident in the Danish society, because everyone's honest about things. For example, I, um, I've been going down to empty my trash every now and then since it's been snowing and every— everything's pretty messy down there. And I have been seeing this 50øre coin fallen on the floor for the past 2 weeks. Nobody's touched it. It's there exactly where it was when I first saw it. Nobody has picked it up. Nobody has touched it or bothered to move it or think, oh, I dropped a coin and I will pick it up. And that's, that's really, really lovely. At the same time, you'll see in, in social setups, or even in the workplace, you know, there's a jar of cookies and there's the last one left and nobody is eating it. And it— and that— but there is one left, and it'll probably always be one left because people are not rude and people are equally kind to leave it for whoever would want to eat it. So I think that's It's, there's a beauty in it, which I really enjoy. And it's sort of hyggelig in a very Nordic Danish way.

Michael
But that can be also awkward as well. Cookies, okay, they come in pieces, but a round cake that can be cut into ever so decreasing sizes. And you know, it's, it's, it gets that last piece gets smaller and smaller and smaller until somebody, somebody has to take it.

Katie
Yeah. And the structural integrity of the cake, it'll kind of wiggle and then you're getting like a weird square instead of a triangle. I often feel like my cutting skills whether it's bread or cake, are judged in this country. Because I just— I'm like, oh my God, how do I cut it? How do I cut it? Because there's so much cake and so much bread and they're such expert slicers and they'll hold it in their hand and they'll face the knife to their palm. And I'm like, danger, why aren't you more afraid?

Michael
I like how we're grouping the Danes as the other.

Katie
Yeah, mental. What I really, really like, and I agree, I completely agree that I think you can feel there's this lack of corruption. There is a trust in the government. That was my big problem with Ireland is we had these big, big problems that were always being talked about, but they never seemed to get better. And it was just like, oh, people can't afford houses, but every politician has several Airbnbs. So you're kind of like, okay, what are those interests? Whereas here, because people are much more critical and they do much more research, it does feel like things change, not as quickly as we'd like, but that people are aware and they are pushing for these changes all the time. And they are kind of looking around to see where is that corruption. I also, just in terms of that trust society, I really love how it kind of gets contagious because again, in Ireland it feels like we can't have nice things because someone will ruin them because we're not taking care of them. Whereas I came here and I became so diligent about my recycling. I've actually had a few moments of like, which bin does wood go into? Because I want to do it properly. And just every now and then I have a little piece of wood and I'm like, I don't know where the right bin for this is. It just sits in a corner in my apartment because I don't want to do it wrong because Denmark tries so hard. So it is that kind of like, again, I always seem to take an overthinking spin on these things, but it is just a lovely thing about Denmark to have this, we're working together and we trust each other to try and take care of the country.

Michael
Good.

Kalpita
Yeah, there's a good sense of community in doing that as well. Fun fact, actually, I found out that the voting system is actually done in paper and pen and not digital. Especially when Denmark is a digital-first country, is because of trust and to avoid corruption, because it's easier to manipulate, um, digital votes than it is to manipulate physical old-school way of voting. So that's also, um, a big, big sign on how we are trying to not be corrupt and have a very honest, clean, um, society, which I appreciate very much. Um, it's a bit strange to have that really long, never-ending slip of paper when you have to go vote.

Katie
Um, I like, it's like a really, really long receipt, like I've bought all my politicians, which one do I want to point out?

Kalpita
Exactly.

Michael
Yeah, Denmark ranks top whenever it comes to being least corrupt, but there's corruption is, is, is classified as maybe taking bribes for, for some political movement. And our next topic is going to teeter on the border there of, of corruption because we're going to be talking about the lobby of the agricultural industry in Denmark.

Katie
Ooh, tell us more, Michael.

Michael
Well, you're the host.

Katie
Oh, I am. Yeah. Sorry. You just drew me in.

Michael
I was setting you up there, Katie. You're meant to knock it outta the park now.

Katie
God. Oh, okay. Okay. I've screwed it up. All right, let's go. So up to 250,000 people may have drinking water with nitrates levels above a newly recommended limit of 6 milligrams per liter. And what that means is that they may have a more increased chance of bowel cancer. So— and then our environment minister is looking at lowering that limit. Do you perchance have any feelings on that, Michael?

Michael
Well, thanks for asking, Katie. Yes, I think I do. So this is, where do I start with this? This is a real issue and there's so many different angles with it. First of all, agriculture in Denmark is a powerful, powerful industry. About 60% of Denmark is used for agriculture. Denmark as a country prides itself on being a green country, but it has the second worst state of nature in all of Europe next to Belgium being the worst. Our biodiversity is suffering and it's largely to do with agriculture. Now, the nitrates in the water, they've been linked to bowel cancer up in Aalborg. So people are, are out of work. People are dying because of the nitrates in the water that comes from farming, and particularly the pig industry. There's several more times pigs in Denmark than there are people. And whenever, whenever they poo, the nitrogen in their poo then gets converted into nitrate and it leaches into the water. And then people drink that water. Not only is the nitrate in the water, but the pesticides that they spray on the crops then also leaches into the water. And both nitrate and pesticides in Danish drinking water is way higher than it should be in about 50% of cases. Now, this is really an absurd problem because there's so many pigs in Denmark that the land used to grow vegetation is then used to feed the pigs, but that's not enough. And so they import the soya from around the world to feed the pigs. And the lobby argues that we need the pig production to feed the people of Denmark, but they import so much of the pigs then over to Asia or to England. And at the same time, they're poisoning the water system in Denmark and they're poisoning people. But the lobby in Denmark is just so, so strong. That they have the ear of the government. And many of the MPs that get voted in in these rural areas are representing the farmers. So the government of Denmark is in a very tricky situation where it makes total sense to just, okay, well, we'll ban the spray of pesticides in these areas where we get our drinking water from, but then they might lose votes and they wouldn't get voted in again at the next election. I realize I'm on a bit of a tangent here, but I'm going gonna bring in some numbers. It will cost the farming industry about 317 million kroners a year if they're going to reduce their pesticide spray. But what the government is talking about is building infrastructure that purifies the water, but that might cost up to 18 billion kroners a year, which again is absurd. It would be cheaper to just pay the farmers not to spray, just pay them 300 million kroners a year rather than build that infrastructure. So it's a complicated political landscape there, but we also need to do something. The story, it speaks to people because people are dying from bowel cancer, but Denmark's biodiversity has also been suffering for years and years because of this, the scale of this industry.

Kalpita
Yeah, this was also a topic we spoke about, I think last week or the week before, which was regards to the pesticides. But it's also a question of, which is now becoming a debate, that should the citizens pay for cleaning the water or who is supposed to be taking the responsibility for paying cleaning of water? And if that is a solution even.

Michael
But that's the thing. So to build this infrastructure, it's the taxpayer that's going to be paying for it. Not the polluter. Like, the policy should be, as it is in a lot of places in Europe, that the polluter pays, not the, not the people that are suffering, not the taxpayer. But because the, the Landbrug og Fødevarer lobby is so strong, then they're even talking about that the taxpayer pays for this. And now the, the farmers are subsidized substantially by the Danish government and by the European Union as well. What we're talking about here is, is yet another form of, of, of taxation based on, on the, the pollutants.

Kalpita
Yeah. So we are paying taxes for defense, we're paying taxes for clean water, and we just keep paying taxes. Yay. Yeah.

Katie
Being an adult is fun. But it is, it, it is interesting, as you rightly pointed out, Michael, like we're just talking about anti-corruption and not a lot of corruption, but then we're here and like you've explained, it's a complex situation. No one's doing anything illegal. It's just about representing different people within the country. But there are people dying directly because of the actions of other people that are being represented in the government. So how is that like, where, where do we measure how well a country is doing? And maybe corruption is the wrong measure because we clearly have a big problem that has been going on for a long time and now it's gotten to a place where we can prove it is causing people to die and it's probably been causing people to die or at least increasing their chances for a long time now. And then it's also, I think there's a map in the article that's talking about this, and I think we do need to call out that most of it is in the poorer parts of the country in Northern Jylland. Like Copenhagen has no dark red areas. That's only over in Jylland. And even in Odense, like it's really the further you get from Copenhagen, the more red it's getting. And that's where people are literally dying from these levels. And it just, it screams unfairness and just someone not taking responsibility where they should have until they're absolutely being forced to with evidence of, yep, this is killing people. And then going like, okay, the solution is to throw money at it as opposed to like, how do we have a look at our biodiversity? How do we make sure we're protecting the environment and also not killing anybody?

Kalpita
One of the conversations we had about this last time with Dragna, who was also a guest, the discussion then was that the government was talking about the pesticide part of the water contamination. And then the solution was that they don't use pesticides. And like you mentioned, that then pay the farmers to not use pesticides. But then if they're not using pesticides, are they going the ecological way? And if they are going the ecological way, then isn't that more expensive for the farmer? Because that's also something that we need to consider, because at the end of it, then it's going to be even more expensive for the consumer to buy more ecological, which Denmark does a good job of. And they're doing a good job of keeping price balanced. Strategy with ecological and not ecological as well. But then it is still an added cost to the farmer to go ecological and consequently for the consumer.

Michael
Now the problem is usually the massive scale industrial farms. There are plenty of farms that have a more ecological way of growing their crops and maintaining their livestock. And my argument is that yeah, we can help farmers that choose to go this route. There is a positive story kind of with the new Green Tripartite, which is an agreement between the government and nature restoration groups or biodiversity groups, and also the farming lobby. And so there are some good things happening. The government will buy land from the farmers and give it back to nature, and they'll also encourage more sustainable processes. And whenever it comes to our drinking water, that's like a human right, is it not? 

Katie
Hm, true.

Michael
To not die from the water that we're drinking. And so to encourage them to go a more ecological way, I think would be much more cheaper than the $18 billion infrastructure that the taxpayer would pay to suck all of the poison out of the water.

Katie
Yeah. Or all the cost to the state of having to support people with a really terrible form of cancer that has a very, like a very horrible way of dying as well to kind of go through that and then support all the family members and friends that it affects, like the cost stack up very, very quickly, no matter what way you look at it. So it's finding the most sustainable long-term solution really, as opposed to just being like, oh, let's just build this fancy thing that might fix it.

[dynamic announcement starts]
Did you know that the Last Week in Denmark newsletter is available in 8 languages? Hey there, this is Fionn from the Last Week in Denmark podcast, and every week you guys are tuning in to hear me and my fellow co-hosts talk about the top news of the week in English. But let's be real, we're all internationals, so not only are you speaking English every day, you're probably also speaking a bit of Danish. But you've probably also got your own native language as well, like the multilingual master you are. So why not treat yourself to the luxury of being able to read Danish news each week in your own native language? So head on over to lastweekdk.substack.com. That's lastweekdk.substack.com and sign up for our newsletter delivered to you every single Sunday.
[dynamic announcement ends]

Michael
But in politics, it's often a communication thing. The voters vote for simple stories that they can understand. That sounded very condescending. I didn't mean it to sound condescending, but if you come up with a good campaign, then voters get your vote.

Katie
I do love a catchy phrase myself. If it has a catchy phrase, I'm oooh.

Michael
Like, oh, the farming The land lobby are very good to reinforce their votership, but maybe with more human-centric stories that we're getting now rather than the nature-centric stories that are often used to oppose the land lobby, maybe then people in those areas will start to shift their vote and shift their support for these industrial practices.

Katie
Or a bunch of children will die and then people will care. That tends to be— that works a lot of the time.

Michael
Yeah.

Katie
But let's move on to our last topic then. Not that this hasn't been fun talking about killing people, but Big Prayer Day might return to the calendar after all. So this was the holiday that was scrapped in 2023 to boost labor supply and fund higher defense spending. And that's been bringing in an estimated 3 billion Danish kroner. But now they're talking about bringing back Big Prayer Day. What has your experience, I think, been around Big Prayer Day being canceled? So I started working in Denmark the year this was canceled, and then I got some— so I used to work for a company that did data visualization and gamification. And what they would do is, for example, one of our big like, ooh, isn't this fun? Is if you have a sales target for this month, you can see how much you need to earn each working day to hit your monthly target. And the amount of complaints I got about Big Prayer Day, not being taken out of the working days or being added to the working days to make sure they were getting the right numbers. And then every single Danish customer would go on a big long rant about like, it's not your fault, we should have Big Prayer Day, what's going on? So it's a very emotional topic for people here, but what has your experience been so far?

Michael
I've been here, I've experienced a lot of big prayer days, and I've experienced not having it. And in my experience, it wasn't so much of a big deal. Again, it's a catchy thing that gets people into power. We're going to bring back Big Prayer Day, vote for us. Okay, that's a message we can get behind. Let's do that. But it's, there's bigger problems that I think, you know, restoring our nature should be much more higher on the agenda. Restoring Big Prayer Day was just one of them catchy stories that people have. And there's also some kind of pastry that comes with the day as well.

Katie
I can never remember what it's called. And then I tried to explain it to Danish people to try and remember, but it's like, it's called like the wheat or the, it's like got cardamom bread in it. There's always a special bread for a special occasion in this country.

Kalpita
It's a hot wheat bun.

Michael
Yeah. I can get behind that.

Katie
Hot wheat bun. That's the one. Exactly. And they just put butter on it. And also for some reason that's meant to be dinner? Like that's just done. If you have your roll and I'm like, this is, I need protein or potatoes. This doesn't really work for me.

Michael
Maybe in Aarhus, not in Odense.

Kalpita
Okay.

Katie
Oh, it's cause you're closer to Copenhagen. You don't get, you don't get the fun stuff.

Kalpita
I mean, I think Store Bededag or Big Prayer Day is, is quite significant for, for the Danish society, and they're quite affected by it in some way or the other because it is a church holiday to start with. So I think the church to begin with was not very happy. There are efforts being made to bring not just the youth but just people back into the church. So this could be also significant from an election point of view where they need the church support. Also, there it's a holiday that comes after Easter. I think it's some 4 weeks or something like that. So culturally it has big significance, and I think Denmark would love to go back to restoring that also, because I mean, it is a holiday, and I think it comes somewhere around the weekend or something like that, and people make plans and families come together, and it's, it's, it's, it's a good day. I have worked on Store Bededag, and I have also had holidays in the past. For me, it's missing out on seeing family because my husband's Danish, and we get to meet family and hang out and just have a good day out of it, which I think is important. We don't get so many days with family other than Christmas or Easter, and then that's pretty much it. Otherwise, you're just on your own. So I'm completely on the side of bringing it back.

Katie
So this came up in work because it comes up every year, always. And there's kind of our head of finance was talking about it and she was like, I don't understand why we're still talking about it. And I thought it was really interesting because she's very smart, but also very nice. And she just put it so concisely. She's like, we can have the day back, but then we need to pay more taxes or we can pay less taxes and not have the day back because they have made you know, what was it, 3 billion kroner from this day. I don't understand how that's possible, but they have. So it's this kind of, okay, but we're gonna complain if we raise taxes, but we're also gonna complain if they don't give us Big Prayer Day. I also feel like we need to have the conversation. What is a big prayer? What does that mean? Because they just say it like big prayer day and I'm like, I know they're translating it for me to understand, but it's actually, It's not a religious holiday and that's why they were able to cancel it. So the government can't cancel Easter because that's religious and then you're taking that away from people. But Big Prayer Day isn't a religious holiday. It's not even like Whitsunday or one of those ones that nobody really knows, but in Denmark they keep it for some reason. So in terms of where Big Prayer Day came from, it's just when they have their communions or their confirmations. That's what Big Prayer Day is and that's the only religious thing.

Michael
My understanding, a few hundred years ago, there was a king that was sick of all the different prayer days in the spring and said, do you know what, lads, we're going to group all these days together and just have one big prayer day.

Katie
I love that so much. That's the only explanation I ever needed, Michael. And I hope it's true because I'm going to repeat it for the rest of my days in Denmark if anybody says that again. But yeah, I suppose then we also have a fun subject that I think you might have a lot to say on, Michael, and maybe me as well from Ireland, depending. I don't know as much as you though, but the government has launched a new language package aimed at limiting the growing use of English words in everyday Danish. My initial reaction is, ah, but I can already say so little in Danish. Ah, it always helps when you can hear like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, super cool. And then they move on. You're like, okay, whatever's happening is good news. But how do we feel about this from the government?

Kalpita
I think it's also a subtle way of saying that we don't want, uh, Persian or Arabic influences as well, because last year there was this big uproar about, uh, certain words that were more popular than Danish or English words. That were being used more commonly. I use those words, but my language influence is totally different from what Danish kids and others have, and I'm okay with it. But the language politics is also becoming a thing among other issues as well. But Michael, you have more inputs on that.

Michael
Yeah, I was thinking about it since being invited on this podcast. And maybe at first, from a non-Danish perspective, it might seem exclusionary to have more focus on the Danish language, but when I think about it, it really doesn't. We're in Denmark. I've gotten so much out of learning Danish in this country and being able to interact with people. It's really opened up people's personalities and also what I work with, I work with of knowing the names of the things that we have in nature, whether it's the scientific name or the local name. And I see that there's huge value in knowing the names, being able to point to that tree or that insect and being able to name it because you feel more connected with it. And if you feel more connected with it and if things have a name, then you're going to want to protect it or at least vote in legislation that would protect it. And whether that's in English or Irish or Danish or Latin, it's not a big difference there. Also coming from a country that had its language removed through colonialism, the Irish language is so rich in words to describe species and nature and natural phenomena. That was all lost by being replaced with English. And the same thing isn't happening in Denmark, but I can really see the value in holding on to, to those words and particularly those niche words, those cultural references and naming in nature.

Katie
I see that too. I think it's so sad. I think as well, I realized too late. So we obviously have to learn Irish in school from age 4 to age 18, and you have to pass an exam to go to college in Irish, but it's all very simple and it's just a memory game. So you just learn off the phrases that you need to know. And I now, know more Danish than I know Irish, which is terrible because I'm like, this is my country and my identity, but I don't know. I can read it out loud, but I don't know what any of the words mean unless it's like angrí an ic tachtneamh, which will make sense to no one except Irish people. And it's so sad to kind of lose that part of your identity. And then like, there are, there's so many beautiful things within language that you then can't explain. So it's simple things like in Irish, we don't say I'm sad. We say sadness is on me. And that's like a really interesting to look at how different cultures perceive language, but you just lose all of that richness. And then I feel a bit torn because I'm like, I should learn Danish. I am planning to stay here. I really need to figure out like how to make myself do that. But then there's this other language that I've kind of just neglected and it's not as useful, but it's such an important part of our history and identity that I do feel kind of guilty not giving it the same attention that I'm giving Danish.

Michael
Are you on Duolingo with Irish?

Katie
No, I tried, but what it does is, because when Duolingo does the, like, measure how you do, it made me like, some of it was too easy and some of it was too hard. So I'm obviously good at one part and terrible at another part, but I don't know because of the, like, whatever I've learned through those however many years of trying to learn Irish. It's like, oh, I'm good at this, but I don't know anything it's trying to tell me here. So yeah, no, then I gave up immediately.

Kalpita
I do agree. I do agree with you, Michael. I think the preservation of the language, no matter what language it is, is such an important aspect in today's evolving cultures across the globe. English has become so, so significant— American or UK English, doesn't matter. Also, the infiltration of so many different medias has also made it difficult for local and ethnic languages to survive. There have been many, many— I come from India and we have so many languages and so many different dialects of the same language as well. So preserving those languages becomes a very, very big challenge. But also the literature that is coming out and the literature that is also being published from smaller to large mediums of consumption is so, so essential given the fact that there is a need to preserve the language, but also to keep certain aspects of the language that are so inane and core, not just blending other influences, but keeping it clean and tight and keeping the traditional sense of the language as well. So it's a welcome change if it is going to be one, really. I think language schools can do so much better to teach internationals the language. I think there's been such a big debate about talking about things during exams and also learning in the classes of things that you would never use in the Danish language on the daily. So maybe that's a start as well to include internationals in this.

Michael
Yeah, I didn't get much from the language lessons 13 years ago. Learned much more from immersing myself in the Danish language.

Katie
Yeah. Yeah. Just talking and making yourself do it. Yeah. I think I've just reached the stage where I need to get over myself. Like, I am definitely the problem. I don't think there's any other way to say it. I'm like, I just need to do it and be okay with being wrong. But listen, so we're all in agreement that the new language package is a good idea, and I think that's a good way to end this podcast episode. So it's been so lovely talking to you. Thanks so much for joining us, Michael. There were so many facts, not all of them fun, but they were facts.

Michael
Well, thanks very much for having me.

Katie
Anytime. And it was so good to see you again, Kalpita. I'm excited for our next episode as well.

Kalpita
Likewise. And thank you, Michael, again.

Katie
And thank you everyone for listening. We'll talk to you soon. Bye.

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LWID

Host
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Kalpita Bhosale

Guest
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Katie Burns

Guest
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Michael Magee

Guest