Last Week in Denmark

Danish Oil Shock Fears, Noma Abuse Fallout & Licorice Limits: LWID S5E9

• Season 5 • Episode 9

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Oil shocks, restaurant power abuse and Denmark’s licorice obsession: Fionn and Dominika are joined by Derek Hartman to break down rising global oil tensions and what they could mean for fuel prices, inflation and political stability in Denmark, before turning to serious allegations against Noma’s René Redzepi and what they reveal about exploitation risks for internationals working in hospitality and beyond. They also tackle Denmark’s famously divisive love of licorice, from cultural identity to actual health limits, trying to understand why some traditions are harder to swallow than others for newcomers. 

Topics: 

(03:36) Oil Price Spike 

 (16:31) Noma Allegations

 (27:05) Danish Licorice Debate

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Fionn

Hello and welcome to The Last Week in Denmark podcast. Each week we talk through some of the top stories that happened last week in Denmark. We focus on how they impact internationals living here, so if that sounds like you, well then, welcome home. You're in the right place and we're so glad you're here. If you're a first-time listener, we have 4 full seasons ready for you to go back and explore, and new episodes coming out every week. Joining us, Season 5. I'm Fionn O’Toole, and joining me this week for Episode 9 of Season 5 is my wonderful co-host Dominika Hanzlik. Say hi, Dom.


Dom

Hello. Very nice to see you again. And what a great way to kickstart my weekend to talk about politics.


Fionn

Absolutely. And we are joined this week by a very special guest who is none other than podcaster, content creator, and stand-up comedian Derek Hartman. As the host of What Are You Doing in Denmark, Derek probably needs no introduction to many of our listeners, but to those who aren't familiar with him, he is an American storyteller living in Copenhagen, creating podcasts, videos, and comedy about life in Denmark as a foreigner. It is great to have you, Denmark. Great to have you, Derek. Wow, I whiffed that one already.


Derek

You know what? I mean, it's good to have Denmark as well. And, you know, we're all a part of Denmark.


Fionn

So yeah, exactly.


Derek

I'll take all that.


Fionn

I'm just, you know, manifesting your integration. 


Derek

There we go. 


Fionn

Well, this week we're going to be exploring whether we could be heading for a '70s-style oil crisis. We'll discuss the fallout of allegations of abuse around Noma's René Redzepi. And we'll be asking the question that has been on the lips of so many internationals for so long: why do Danes like licorice? Before we get to that, though, we would just like to ask you one thing. If what we're talking about someday resonates with you, please share this podcast with someone you know. We're here to help internationals in Denmark stay informed and feel connected. So thanks for helping us reach people just like you, Guys, how are we doing?


Derek

You know, just a lot of existential dread and Lakritz. So, you know, they pair nicely.


Dom

The usual.


Fionn

Yeah, I have to be honest, aside from all the existential dread, I'm coming into this podcast with a deep failure on my part already. And that is that today and yesterday we had some workmen putting in new windows in our house, which is great 'cause we live beside Copenhagen Airport, so finally we can't hear planes taking off. But naturally enough, there was like a coating of sawdust over the entire house, and we cleaned as much as possible, but I did wake up this morning with the scratchiest throat, and my first thought was, oh no, and my second thought was, oh yes, I'm gonna have a deep, sexy podcast voice. 


Dom

So mysterious.


Fionn

I— you don't need me to tell you that that has not happened. So I'd just like to apologize to you guys. I'd like to apologize to listeners. I'm not going to apologize to my mom if she's listening because I don't want her listening to my sexy voice. But, uh, otherwise, yeah, that's, that's what I'm going into the weekend with. It's, it's tough out here.


Dom

Well, I mean, the best person to be is yourself, right?


Derek

So, and if you can't be yourself, be very white.


Fionn

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I was hoping I would sound like one of those DJs when they have to break for some news and it's like, “Prime Minister Mette Fredriksen was seen transforming into a goose.” And I just, I can't bring that energy today. We have a lot to talk about this week and maybe I should shut up for a little bit and actually talk about what is happening in the world. And the first thing we're going to talk about is the oil shock, I guess you could call it. There is a current price spike that is absolutely tied to the disruption around the Middle East, especially the closure or blockading or danger, I guess you could call it, around the Strait of Hormuz, which normally handles around one-fifth of global oil. Petrol prices have shot up, diesel has shot up even more, and oil is kind of moving into the same range we saw after the initial Russian invasion of Ukraine. So what do you guys think? Is it time to break out our mustard shirts and brown corduroy suits? Is it 1973 all over again?


Derek

I did love the fashion then, so I potentially, you know, could be okay with that. But I also saw one other, you know, as, as rough as this is, you know, to start with a positive, I, I did kind of discover that the oil crisis of the '70s is part of what led Denmark and the government at the time to invest so heavily in bike infrastructure that we enjoy around the country. So I guess the first one wasn't all that bad, but I have to say, uh, it probably was definitely not great. And it's a little scary to think about.


Dom

It is. Yeah. I, I, I was also reading about it. It's not only the bike infrastructure, but it's also the, I don't know to what extent, but also the wind turbines. That was also a direct result of that. So it, it did bring something good, I guess. I think one main thing I was thinking about when I was researching this topic is I feel like I wouldn't be me if I wouldn't bring this topic up. I think a lot of the times when we discuss these things, we talk about, oh, there's something going on in the Middle East, how does that impact us and the oil prices? And I think it's just so important in these discussions also to remember that there are real people losing their lives and their homes and their families. And compared to that, what we're experiencing now is an inconvenience, basically. 


Fionn

Right


Dom

It's still bad for us and for the economy, but I just think it's maybe so important to keep that in mind also that it's not so bad for us.


Fionn

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I can basically just choose to not look at the red line going down in my banking app showing my pension. But that's it. So far, that's kind of the material impact, if any. Right. That the line goes down for a few days, and hopefully in 30 years it'll have gone back up again.


Dom

Who knows?


Fionn

Let's see. But, um, I think that's a really good point. And obviously, I think our hearts go out to all the people who've been affected by this, of which there are thousands now. And I saw awful statistic that over 1,000 children have been either killed or injured already in this conflict. I feel like a lot of the time conflicts are not what you might term a just war, but this almost seems particularly nonsensical. Yeah.


Derek

Yeah.


Fionn

So it is heavy times, but one, I don't know, maybe difference between what's going on today and the oil crisis that people are comparing it to in the '70s. Well, one is the scale of this. This actually has the scale to potentially be a lot worse, but there is maybe a bit of a brake to the runaway train at the moment, which is the fact that many countries actually have oil reserves at this time, which they didn't necessarily have as much in the '70s. Part of that comes from the IEA requiring member countries that are net oil importers to kind of hold an emergency reserve equal to at least 90 days. So I think for a lot of countries, it is not actually that oil is running out, but you're seeing prices going up anyway and you're seeing a lot of panic buying. And I know in New Zealand, for example, there's already talk of potentially rationing fuel. Yeah. Which I think is a big change. And one of the things that struck me is, and it's probably stating the obvious to a lot of people, but just how dependent our society is, even in a country like Denmark, right, where we pride ourselves on many people owning electric cars, everybody biking. But oil is kind of everywhere. And I was thinking, is there anywhere that is kind of potentially unaffected by this? Even somewhere like Bhutan, you know, where 98, 99% of energy comes from hydroelectric power. They're a net carbon sink rather than generating. But even still, I mean, cooking oil, heating oil, it is firmly, firmly ingrained in society.


Dom

Yeah, I think one thing that surprised me is that there's all these things we don't even realize are related to oil prices. For example, getting the groceries that we buy on a daily basis to supermarkets, they obviously have to be transported in some way. So that also impacts the price of everything. Because initially I was like, oh, I don't have a car, I'm so eco-friendly, that doesn't impact me. But it does. As long as I eat food, which I do, it basically impacts all of us.


Derek

Yeah. And that's the— I think the, the scary thing, and even with the release of some of these strategic petroleum supplies, uh, surpluses rather, that have been then stored, is that, you know, it's a, it's a very temporary solution. And we really have no-


Dom

Yeah.


Derek

I mean, let's be honest, it doesn't seem like there is any plan here at all. So this is a temporary solution that may only buy us a few weeks. I think the number was about 20 days, so, you know, less than a month before we kind of have this hitting us in the pocketbook. And I 100% agree with the previous statements on, you know, yes, there are people that are much more affected by this directly, but, you know, around the world, there's already been supply chain issues. There have already been issues with affordability and the cost of living, especially in Denmark. And for that to become a bigger problem, you know, can also have other political dominoes falling too. Part of that is, I think, what led to some rise in far-right parties, including Donald Trump's election and the fact that Netanyahu and Israel is still in power. So some of these things could have far-reaching impacts beyond just how much, you know, food costs and things like that will increase.


Dom

For sure.


Fionn

I think that's interesting, right? Because we are in an election here in Denmark at the moment, and some parties have been kind of again floating cheaper petrol prices or diesel prices through like cutting the taxes that are on these. And I was curious actually what you guys thoughts were, and I'd love to hear if you're listening to this and, you know, you have a kind of sharp perspective on it, please leave a comment. But obviously the critique of that is it's giving short-term relief, but it's weakening the incentives to actually cut fossil fuel dependence. So what do you guys think? Like, I often feel that green politics or green initiatives are kind of dismissed as like wishful thinking. Yes, it would be lovely if everything could run on solar power and wind, but you know, when times are tough, actually you're going to need a natural gas terminal. And of course there is some truth to that, but it kind of increasingly feels to me at least like, well, maybe the incentive is not only, not only to improve the planet, and that's a big incentive, but to actually reduce kind of critical vulnerability as well. And so the idea of like, well, you know, let the green parties talk about what they want, but now the adults are in the room. It almost feels like the other way around, right? How do you actually plan for stability if your whole world supply chains, food prices can be so upended? What do you think? Are we discussing consumer relief or is this the moment to actually discuss national vulnerability and maybe it's a new green push comes out of this?


Derek

Yeah, it seems like the starting point was maybe not the green push, but I know Morten Messerschmidt from the Danish People's Party, from DF, is looking at cutting those fuel taxes. So I think it would drop both diesel and regular gasoline prices in Denmark. So basically cutting the taxes on that. Of course, there's pushback on the other side. It kind of seems like a ploy though. I don't— obviously a lot of the geopolitical things happening right now kind of set up this election. But, um, yeah, for Morten Messerschmidt, I kind of feel like, you know, he's already kind of the oldest 45-year-old I've ever seen or listened to in my life. But it also just kind of seems like he's playing to people who aren't thinking that way, um, you know, to his base maybe.


Fionn

I think that's been really a question I've had about, I guess, the last year, right? Because he did align himself quite a lot with the Trump-esque movement and, you know, the international, I don't know, collection of parties who want to frame themselves somewhere along those Trump lines. And it must have a bit of a sour taste in the mouth, right, to then have Trump go after Greenland and then get involved in a war in the Middle East, which destabilizes everything, and, you know, criticize NATO contributions as well from countries like Denmark. I don't want to say I feel for the guy because I don't, but objectively you have to go, oof, that's a rough run, right? To have hitched yourself to that wagon and hit so many potholes.


Derek

Right. With Greenland, with the fact that one of the largest companies in Denmark makes all of its money off of global shipping. And we've got one of the most important waterways on the planet is potentially mined and restricted. Yeah. I don't know if Trump was the one to hitch his wagon to, but Yeah, no, no, I don't feel bad for somebody being an opportunist.


Dom

No, I think I'm also— I also think I'm very biased because whenever I hear the name Morten Messerschmidt, I assume like, no, no, no, thank you. Also, wouldn't it be so funny to have him as a guest on the podcast one day?


Fionn

He's a noted friend of this podcast.


Dom

Of course, he's an avid listener.


Derek

Well, he has his own podcast, Anything But Politics. I'm like, maybe you should stick to anything but politics.


Fionn

You nailed it.


Dom

Try something else. Yeah, branch out. Yeah, I also, I also think what he's proposing is more of a, more of a kind of patch and not a solution to lower the prices of petrol. He claims it's because there's a lot of class inequalities between people who can afford an electric car and who can't. But I also think, I mean, maybe I'm biased because I live in Copenhagen and everyone has a bike and everything, but like, you don't even need a car, I feel, in most of the places in the country. But maybe that's a very privileged stance of me to take, but even if, I think that would just delay bad things or the inevitable from happening if we sort of went back to petrol instead of trying to have the global transition. I mean, Denmark is already behind on its climate goals, so this would just make it worse.


Derek

Yeah, when I talk to people from other parts of the country outside of the capital region, of course I do hear often that that's true for us, uh, who are living in Copenhagen, but that even the public transportation is not as reliable. You may have to, when you get to the farthest point in public transportation, still need a car to get to your residence or to your place of employment at that point. So I definitely think for us that's great. What, you know, if there was something, some kind of silver lining that came out of this, or there was a green initiative that came out of this, I think it would potentially be to have more frequent public transportation options. For example, some of the buses and even the local trains may only come, you know, every 20 minutes or every 30, even 60 minutes, which to us in Copenhagen seems preposterous that we would-


Dom

Insane. 


Derek

-wait more than 5 minutes at a, at a train station. But for, for folks that live in Jylland, they really are, they really have to either time their day around public transport or they just don't have it available.


Dom

Mm-hmm. Yeah.


Fionn

I definitely felt that the first place I lived in Denmark was not the sunny streets of Copenhagen, but the cobbled streets of Tønder. Which is on the German border. And I was working in a town maybe 20 minutes train ride north. I had to get the train at 7 in the morning because at 8 in the morning the train was going the other way. Oh, it was going to— and that's where the, like, the gymnasium was. So all the school students had to go the other way. So there was no train at 8 o'clock. So yeah, it was either 7 or 9. So there was a 2-hour gap in between. I think we should be moving on towards our next topics, but one thing I have noticed this week, if I can kind of wrap up the gasoline, is that everybody is apparently now an expert on the straits of hormones.


Dom

Yes.


Fionn

And this was kind of reminding me of how everybody who watched The Bear was suddenly an expert in Michelin-star cooking and the pressures of a kitchen.


Dom

I was just going to mention it in the next topic. I thought I was going to be so witty for mentioning it, but—


Fionn

Well, sorry, you know, you've got to— when you're in this arena, you got to compete with the big guns. But this is a major story that broke this week with allegations about René Redzepi's abusive behavior being broken by the New York Times, which had an investigation. It gathered testimony from 35 former employees, which is a lot if you ask me, alleging physical and psychological abuse, much of it dating from 2009 to 2017. And the fallout from this was fairly immediate. Sponsors pulled away from Noma's Los Angeles pop-up. And now in the last day or two, René Redzepi has announced that he's actually stepping back from daily operations from, from Noma itself. What a fall from grace, right?


Derek

Yeah.


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Derek

I'm not saying it's not deserved at all, but yeah. I mean, I feel like this has not necessarily been a fall, but like a long stumble. That the bottom just fell out of. Because there have been allegations about what it's like to work at Noma and the fact that they rely on non-paid quote-unquote interns who come here internationally and basically end up in these exploitative employment situations for a while. So I mean, personally, I think that this is— yeah, I'm not to use a— I'm trying to think of something that isn't a pun, but I feel like the cake has been baked on this for a while. And you know, this is just desserts. I don't know, I, I feel like he's kind of deserved this. And I'm almost surprised that the first time a New York Times editorial came out, or, or exposé rather, came out about what it's like to work at Noma, that there were really no repercussions before that. I think if I'm kind of getting the timeline correct, when these things came out, I want to say in 2022, about how the working conditions were exploitative at Noma. They started then paying their employees.


Dom

Yeah.


Derek

And then he said, oh, it's too, uh, that's too expensive. We're gonna shut down Noma. Um, yeah. And they've been shutting it down, quote unquote, for what, 2 and a half years now? So I, I don't think this could have happened to a nicer guy. Let's just put it that way. No, I don't feel bad for Morten Møsterschmidt. I don't feel bad for René Redzepi. And I hope nothing bad, uh, happens to anybody else. That's awful.


Dom

No, I think what really surprised me was that in a place where you pay— how much was it? Like 7,000 crowns or something for dinner or more— that they couldn't—


Derek

I think that's more.


Dom

Yeah. That they couldn't afford paying the interest. I mean, if they can't afford it, who can? What about the kebab place on my street? I paid like 20 crowns for a falafel.


Fionn

Yeah. And I think one thing that, going back to your point, Derek, I feel like there's, for a very long time, there's been this kind of myth of like a genius tyrant in the kitchen. And much like artists or musicians, it's kind of like, well, you know, it's a high-pressure environment. And that, like, to an extent, I can understand that, right? Not normalizing abuse, but people will snap or maybe yell at people when they're under extreme pressure. But this is definitely beyond that. But it does feel like there has been kind of a pass, right? Because of this combination of high pressure and genius that it's like it's treated like a moral exemption. And exactly like you say, Dom, like if you found out your local kebab shop or local restaurant was like not paying its staff, you'd be horrified. You might expect like the police to get involved in some sort of modern slavery discussion or something like that.


Derek

At least the labor unions.


Fionn

Yeah, exactly.


Dom

For sure.


Fionn

And I think one of the things that really I think is interesting with this story for this podcast is, you know, the workforce in restaurants in Copenhagen is very, very dominated by internationals. It's around 3 in 4. And of course, Rene Redzepi himself has international roots with a Danish mom and a North Macedonian father. And there has been even talk about how that like blend of cultural identities is part of what kickstarted the success of Noma, right? This idea of the local ingredients and the kind of storytelling behind that as well. So it really feels— obviously this is a Noma story, but like a bigger story about how not only Denmark, but the service industry treats international employees who are maybe often not paid or in a more precarious position. And therefore much, much easier to take advantage of.


Dom

For sure. And this is also what surprised me also while watching The Bear. This is what I learned, but I also was reading about this today, that it's apparently actually a very common thing in fine dining to have unpaid interns. And it's basically you're being paid with this— like, basically these chefs are being put as gods of fine dining. You should be grateful to be able to get experience in this place. That's the payment you're getting, basically.


Derek

Yeah, I think no matter what, no matter how many doors open for you, you should have to be paid for working there. And look, I feel the same way, just so that anybody listening isn't like, oh, an American, oh, don't you tip? Yeah, 100%, I agree. I think it's ridiculous in the US as well, or any place where people have to rely on tips. If you don't have money to pay your staff, you shouldn't operate a restaurant, period. And like point blank. And you also shouldn't beat the crap out of them either. You know, it doesn't— like, there's no— I mean, like, 100%. And I definitely like tying this to internationals because I don't think it's just even— I don't even think it's just the restaurant industry. I know the hotel and restaurant union has made some statements about this, but I think that there are quite a— like, there are even other larger companies like Nova Nordisk, for example, depend on recruiting foreign labor here. And it does sort of put a golden handcuff on people, slightly different than the Noma model, but it does put a golden handcuff on people that are working here that are going to be less likely to speak up about their working conditions or may tolerate more, or perhaps would work more than the normal Danish 37-hour work week, uh, give up vacation time, weekend time, things like that, because they're here on a work visa. And we know what it's like, it's not easy to get a job here if you're an international person, if you don't have a Danish last name. And it kind of keeps people stuck in these jobs, like, uh, basically as like a visa, work visa, that's an anchor to them and it's keeping them in unhealthy situations just like this Noma situation.


Dom

Yeah. And I think what internationals also often don't know, which I didn't know when I first got here, is that you have to get a union. Like, it's not something that's— that you automatically have. You actually have to be proactive about it yourself.


Derek

You're covered under the union contract in a best-case scenario, not always, but you don't have them backing you up if you're not a member.


Dom

Yeah, exactly.


Fionn

Exactly. Yeah. Also learned the hard way that you need to have an A-kasse. So if this is my message to the person who's new in Denmark and is like, oh no, I don't need to do that.


Dom

You do need to do that.


Fionn

Don't be like me. And yeah, no, no, I have a job lined up. COVID? What's that? No, I'm not going to need unemployment benefits. What? They're private? Okay. That was yeah, a rough lesson in that. But I think, you know, whether it is to use bare terminology, the kitchen brigade, or whether it is in the offices of Novo Nordisk, I think if the workforce is international, but all the like power, the reputation, the references, they're concentrated at the top, who can safely say no to stuff, right? And I think this story exemplifies that. I think it's obviously taken it a step further with reports of beatings and stabbings I saw as well, which is really bonkers and awful. And I have to say, I also saw some interviews with other Danish chefs who I thought quite disappointingly were saying, this isn't violence. I mean- 


Dom 

Oh boy…


Fionn

-sure, you know, there's shouting and that's bad. It's a high-pressure environment. The beatings, I mean, like, yeah, sometimes that happens, but you have a beer at the end of the day and everything's fine. And personally, if somebody stabs me, a beer is not normally enough to smooth it over. But I think there's a big difference between having a tiff with your partner or getting grumpy with your best mate and then making up a few hours later because you were both in a bad form, and it being your boss and it being your world-renowned, you know, superstar boss at that who's threatening to have you deported.


Derek

Yeah, to be threatening deportation or blacklisting from an industry that you're craving to get into is is awful. I mean, even I think you see the trauma because if you look at the New York Times piece that was written up, some of these people were still afraid to go on the record or to use their last name because now they're working at a restaurant in London or Los Angeles or Mexico City and they don't want their full name out there because they don't want to be traced back to them. So I think it was very brave for them to even go forward about this, and I'm glad that they did. I think honestly it feels like this has been an open secret for a long time. And I feel like even forces within Denmark, I'm curious, like there's no way that this was not known to other people in the industry, especially if they're going out and defending it. And I, I, I think I saw that same statement from a celebrity chef saying the same thing. First of all, I think we need to get rid of celebrity chefs. I'd rather hear from like a celebrity school teacher or something like that. Uh, but I think that's part of the problem. Having this idea of a celebrity chef, whether it's Gordon Ramsay, kind of normalized the way that we think of the restaurant industry, or shows like The Bear, and what we accept that they should have some kind of different rules than we would accept in our workplaces. And that's just— I think that can't be the case anymore.


Fionn

Absolutely, fully agree.


Dom

Agreed. I would definitely follow a school teacher celebrity.


Derek

Yeah, give us somebody more wholesome to look up to.


Fionn

Well, as we move on, I don't know if this is necessarily something I can look up to, but I have to tell you guys, Danes love licorice.


Derek

I knew that's where we were going.


Fionn

Yeah. Now you're probably hearing from the tone of my voice, you may be getting a little hint about my feelings on this topic. But what about you? Do either of you like licorice? Have you been in Denmark long enough to have a taste for it? Did you like it beforehand? Is it a thing in your country? I've, I've so many questions.


Dom

No.


Derek

It's a thing in the US, but I don't like, honestly, um, the taste that we get in the US. You guys know, like, jelly beans, of course, right? Like, so that candy is often in, like, our Easter baskets, and I think the most famous brands always have a black jelly bean. So that's honestly what we always think of the taste, like, black licorice is that black jelly bean. And every— I think almost every kid just picks it out except for probably the Scandinavian immigrant descendants in like Minnesota or something. So I think we're exposed to it and we choose not to go down that path in most cases. Yeah, but I think the way that Danes try to get us internationals to eat Lakritz is honestly, it's just cruel.


Dom

They always trick us into eating it somehow, like, oh, it's not a chocolate, haha.


Derek

No, I'd rather work at Noma than have to eat Lakritz.


Fionn

Your story of, you know, it's there and you're picking it out, that resonates so much with my childhood because in Ireland we have— I can't even remember the name of the brand, but it's called like Licorice Allsorts. And I'm sure like Danes will— I'm sure if they see that, look at that and be like, you know, it is the worst of the worst. But for us, it's like you go to your grandma's house and she pulls out a bag of candy and the hopes rise. And then you're like, oh God, oh God, oh no, no one's touching this. And even then, I feel like, first of all, Danes put it in everything, which is deeply disturbing to me because, yeah, I never feel safe eating chocolate or cakes here.


Derek

Even tea, even toothpaste, even chewing gum. Oh my God, they sneak shampoo, they sneak it in everything.


Fionn

It's, you know, they say how like a rat can smell out poison if it's like one part in a million of food. Like, I am that rat. I am the licorice rat, yeah.


Dom

That's you now.


Fionn

That's gonna be the official Last Week in Denmark podcast t-shirt, the licorice rat, just with a picture of my head on it and some, uh, some big rat ears.


Dom

New LinkedIn headline.


Fionn

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, new brand. But it could be, yeah, in the tea. It's like, oh yeah, of course, it's a cup of mint tea. And you taste it and it's like, it's unignorable.


Dom

Yeah.


Derek

Or ice cream. You know, it's ruined things that I actually really like.


Fionn

There is an ice cream and it's kind of like a cornetto style. So the cone and the— and it's rhubarb ice cream. And I'm the world's biggest rhubarb fan. And then it has like white chocolate. And I think this is wonderful. And then they have licorice sprinkles on top of it. And it's just— it's like somebody has put poison on it to me. I like— I absolutely insanity. But the thing that really gets me is that every time I'm like, no, I don't actually like black goods, the Danes give me this face. I'm like, oh yeah, the salty stuff is rough, but you like the sweet stuff, right? No, it's all bad.


Derek

Also, show me where it's sweet because to me there's nothing sweet about it. It just tastes like rat poison. Yeah.


Dom

But I have some good news for you or bad news for the Danes, but there's actually a limit, like a daily limit of how much licorice you can eat per day because it contains— I don't know how to pronounce that— glycyrrhizic acid, and it actually can be harmful to your health in large quantities. So I think next time— what was, what was the limit? It was no more than 50 grams per day if you're an adult. So I think next time someone offers you a candy, you can say, oh sorry, I've had my 50 grams. Already. I'll have it tomorrow. Maybe that, that can be a new excuse you can use.


Derek

And it's lower if you're pregnant, so I just tell people that I'm expecting.


Dom

Yeah, sorry. Yeah, no booze and no licorice for me.


Derek

No booze.


Fionn

It— that does make me feel sort of virtuous though. So I feel like the next time I go to my doctor and she's like, your cholesterol levels are very high, I'm like, hey, I am completely under the daily licorice limit, so cut me some slack. But yeah, like I was reading about this as well, and one of the ingredients in it, and apparently the thing that really gets licorice fans going, is salmiac, which is ammonium chloride. And like, first of all, if you're telling me like, hey, the spice of life is ammonium chloride, I will think you're drinking, you know, toilet cleaner. But it sounds almost like the same because it can have a decalcifying effect on your bones.


Dom

Oh, wow.


Fionn

And I mean, it can also do, you know, boring, awful things like raising your blood pressure, but a decalcifying effect on your bones. Like, is licorice melting my bones if I accidentally taste some of it?


Derek

Or to get the calcium off the shower?


Dom

I mean, to be fair, we do have a lot of calcium in the water.


Derek

There we go. Yeah. Yeah, true.


Fionn

Yeah. Maybe I should be eating licorice. It'll balance out my cheese intake. But yeah, I like that licorice products containing more than 5% ammonium chloride in Denmark were once labeled are once required to be labeled adult licorice and not for children.


Dom

Adult licorice. Wow.


Fionn

Yeah, I think that's— I'm sure I'm a hypocrite here for, you know, being like, oh, this ammonium chloride is terrible, but give me the caffeine and alcohol and all the other stuff that, you know, children aren't meant to have. But yeah, like, the EU agrees with me. Across the EU, the use of ammonium chloride is typically prohibited, but the Nordic countries have a special exemption to add it to their sweets.


Derek

I was going to say, is it the cultural exemption?


Fionn

I feel like this is one of the things that makes me feel like I'll never truly integrate. I feel like it's like tunmousse, licorice, and I don't know what else, but those are probably the big two. Oh, leverpostej.


Dom

Oh no, micro leverpostej is like, I can't do it. No, I was also trying to figure out what would be the equivalence in other countries. As in something that's nasty to outsiders, but it's like an almost hereditary thing. And I think in the UK, maybe Marmite would be a good example. In Poland, we eat a lot of pickled stuff, which I think can be quite nasty to foreigners. Yeah, those were the two I could come up with. I don't know if you can think of anything else.


Derek

Well, one thing kind of on that note that I think is a similarity is because I was kind of thinking on the same lines. One thing, and I'm glad that you mentioned it, the way that there was a child's version and an adult version is that there are sort of like, like you start with a mild version for your children to almost get them to acquire the taste, which is-


Dom

Their tolerance. 


Derek

-so their tolerance goes up. And at first, when I first heard this, I was like, y'all are crazy, because this has only really been a thing in Denmark for about 100 years. So I'm like, what did your grandparents do to think that, that they had to start raising your parents that this would be a good thing? I kind of feel like we just need to break the generational chain and just not do this for the next year. But anyway, but I thought, no, actually, Derek, that's kind of what we might do in the US, like with, say, like buffalo sauce, right? Like you might, you know, take your kids for chicken and not have any sauce and then maybe do like a barbecue sauce and then a mild buffalo sauce and then like work up to like a buffalo wing sauce that's very spicy. Like you wouldn't just start them on that. And I was like, maybe, maybe I'm a hypocrite because, you know, I took my nephew for his first unseasoned wings when he was like 10 years old. And then I, when he was 12, we got mild wings and, you know, we'll keep going. But maybe it's the way they do it with licorice.


Fionn

I have to admit, you saying that makes me think that I am a hypocrite in this. And I think I'm an extra hypocrite because I think my version of the Irish version of that, and this is probably stereotypical, but it is also something that is deep dark black, absolutely beloved by the Irish, and really, you know, viewed with a lot of suspicion by everyone else. And that is of course the humble pint of Guinness. So there's maybe too many similarities than I was really comfortable with. I think it's about time that we wrap up, guys. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. I think to me this week kind of leaves me with two versions of the same question. What are we normalizing? Oil dependence, abusive prestige cultures, or here's a third one: are we going to normalize the trauma of licorice towards our children?


Dom

No.


Fionn

No to all of them. Yeah, I don't think we're left with a lot of hope amongst those three stories, but well, who knows, maybe the election will throw up a wild result and we'll have full green energy, better workers' rights, and a ban on licorice.


Dom

One can only hope.


Fionn

And I think on that note, we had better say just a huge thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in this week., and we will be back again next week.


Dom

And thank you so much to Derek for joining us today.


Derek

It was my pleasure. So great talking with you guys. Just a lot of fun. Thanks for—thanks for today.


Dom

Absolutely.


Fionn

Is there anything you want to give a shout out to or promote while we have you?


Derek

Yeah. I mean, if anybody wants more of my ridiculous takes on the issues of the day, you can find me on social media. Derek Hartman, D-E-R-E-K H-A-R-T-M-A-N, D-K. On all the social media platforms. And like you mentioned at the top, I also host What Are You Doing in Denmark, which is a, a podcast where we take kind of a, a deeper dive on some of these cultural things and can follow that at Waydid Pod, W-A-Y-D-I-D. Amazing.


Fionn

So that's everyone's homework for the week. Go and listen to What Are You Doing in Denmark. Have a great week, everybody.


Dom

Have a great week. Bye.



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LWID

Host
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Dominika Handzlik

Guest
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Derek Hartman

Guest
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Fionn O'Toole

Guest