Last Week in Denmark

Denmark votes, Immigration Fears & “Are You Danish Enough?”: LWID S5E10

• Season 5 • Episode 10

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Danish elections, citizenship rules and the future for internationals: Kalpita and Narcis break down Denmark’s election dynamics, from coalition power to what it could mean for immigration, residency and citizenship, and the pressure on internationals building a life here. And ultimately, what it takes to be seen as Danish enough. 

Topics: 

(06:50) Danish Citizenship policies

(14:37) If the Blue Bloc Takes Power What It Means for Internationals

(29:39) Are you Danish enough?


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Kalpita
Hello everybody, welcome to yet another episode. We are recording season number 5, episode number 10, and this one is a special one because we are at the brink of national elections. By the time you hear this episode, we will already more or less have a result, but this episode is 100% dedicated to understanding the results and how it's going to affect internationals. And there's no better expert than Narcis, who's joining me today to co-host the episode. Welcome. How are you?

Narcis
Hello, Kalpita. It's been a long time since I had the chance to speak on, on this podcast, but I'm happy to be back. Yeah, I saw the last episode. You guys are doing a really great job on, on this podcast. But today is about the election. My God, what a night was, was on Tuesday, right? We stayed there waiting with our popcorn. No, we are bullshitting right now because this is not Tuesday. We actually— this has been recorded before the elections have happened, so that's okay. But you should know that whatever we say now is still valid because the moment the results will be announced, the race for forming the government will start. Because in Denmark, it's almost impossible for one political party to get Not almost, it's impossible for one political party to get 50% plus one to secure a majority by themselves. So already because of that, there is a Game of Thrones, you can say. The moment the results are done, everyone knows they have a little some cards on the table and they start negotiations. And anything can happen, as we have found out last time, because it used to be traditionally that it's either red or it's either blue. Left wing or right wing. And then there's this middle party like Radikale Venstre, right, the social liberals that are always like, oh, I can either play red this time or I can play blue this time depending on where the power would go. They will be the kingmakers and they will get a lot of influence for a small party in exchange for that role. Of course, they've been pushed aside by someone more cunning last time. By Lars Løkke's new Social Liberal Party, the Moderatene, who entered by force into the same, let's just say, space. And they became the kingmakers last time, creating the impossible, which happened only once before in Danish history, that they brought the Reds and the Blues together into a purple government, you can say.

Kalpita
Yeah, yeah, he's a clever politician whether we like it or not, and he seems to be aiming for that again this time.

Narcis
He keeps reinventing himself. There's a lot of people who think, to be honest, that after all the cards have fallen, somehow he will end up Prime Minister. But no, I'm not joking.

Kalpita
Yeah, it's true. And they have been asking him every time they get a chance to talk to him if he's going to be Prime Minister, and he keeps saying no.

Narcis
Yeah, but he's not going to say yes because everyone knows the official candidates are Mette and Rols. The unofficial candidate, but I think he has— is Alex, right?

Kalpita
Yeah, yeah. But I think he has a trick up his sleeve.

Narcis
Yeah, for sure, because his dream is still to bring center parties together. And because, let's be honest, let's look at the blue parties. In the past, the blue parties more or less had a cohesion in the terms of, okay, what do they stand up for together? But lately it has become harder and harder for mainstream liberal voters, the conservative voters, to reconcile themselves with being in the same, let's just say, team with the far-right parties, which are now 3 of them. We have Denmark Demokraterne, you have the infamous Inger Støyberg, and then you have DF where you have the rock star, yeah, Smasher Smith, right? So-called Danish, but he's German, obviously. And then you have Lars Boye, which he put on the stanyol hat and he did Citizens Party because we believe in anti-establishment and Trump forever. Yeah, Denmark first. We had to have such a party as well. It was impossible to not have one of those crazies. So now imagine you put some traditional, well-established parties like the Liberal Farmers Party and the Conservative Monarchists, Blue Blood, all that shit, traditions and stuff. And then you put the far right, which is pushing them really badly, it'll be very hard for trolls to put together a coalition, a blue coalition of sorts afterwards, because the far right parties, they will put a lot of ultimatums, say you must accept this or no, you must accept this or no. So that's why both Mete and trolls have not rejected the idea that they will have to work together again. Although Mete did not say, will I work under Trolls? No. But Trolls, would you work under Mette? Yeah, probably. Again, hard— it's hard to say because we need to see just how much power will the red parties get and will they be able to push for, for a true red government because The Reds need Moderatene to be able to switch sides on the Red side. So Lars Løkke to play with the Red side and be there. But at the same time, Lars Løkke and SF and Enhedslisten, they are not the best friends. So that'll be a hard bridge to cross. So we'll have to see, because Mette is more happy to govern across the center with the Blue parties than she is to govern with the Red parties, because she knows that if she will have to govern with the Red parties she needs to really make concessions on various things about internationals. And she's afraid to do that because the Social Democrats have done that before and have lost a lot of voters to the far-right parties. If you remember the great DF 22% back in the good old days. And she's really scared of that. So she's afraid of making any sort of concessions towards internationals that will make it look weak, make her look weak. So to be honest, only if there is a real red majority and she doesn't have a choice simply, then most likely she will have to govern with the reds. Or miracles can happen. Let's say SF becomes for the first time in history bigger than the Social Democrats. That would be something. That would be the end of Mette, of course, because basically there will be lost elections. But So if we're talking about issues, it's— let's talk about citizenship, right? So what's, what's your take on it? What would you like to see on citizenship as changes?

Kalpita
And I can tell you which parties are most likely to support that citizenship, for sure, for people who've been loyal to Denmark according to the laws, which is basically have a job, pay your taxes, and be a non-criminal. That should most certainly be— how do you say— I want to say it should be easier for people who are doing that. Also, naturalization should also be made a consideration because there are so many loopholes and biases in that. Also, things like if you're married to a Danish person, irrespective of whether you're male, female, then those rights should also be considered because right now it's just really steep. For anybody to get a residency or citizenship, especially the non-Western people who come to Denmark, work hard, pay their taxes, but they don't get the rights as a resident or a citizen.

Narcis
And on the citizenship policy, I would say that the Red-Green Alliance is the most progressive by far because they actually are the only ones who want to support automatic citizenship to young people born in Denmark. This is a game changer. So the Red-Green Alliance most likely will be pushing for something like that. They are not small. They are around 8-10% in the polls. Maybe they will be a bit higher in there, but— and they usually don't come into government. They are generally a protest party, so they will not like to govern. They prefer to be on the sides, but they most likely will sell their votes for a potential government. If necessary. So first, Ennes Listen, most progressive. Second most progressive, I would say, is Radikale Venstre, because they actually want to, to focus a lot on reducing waiting times. I heard some of their candidates saying that they also move towards automatic citizenship for people born in Denmark, and they really want to take down symbolic requirements like the handshake ceremony, which they find it really really strange. If we look at the Greens, that alternative, it's a small party indeed, but still, they want education to be counted as work years so that your time spent in education should also count when you apply for citizenship, which is a great initiative. I think it's not such a big deal. It's not such a big step compared to what the Red-Green Alliance is proposing, but it's a bit more realistic. To my surprise, the Social Liberals, the Moderaterne, They seem positive towards internationals, but they seem especially positive towards EU citizens. They are not necessarily very positive for non-EU citizens, actually, to my surprise. They actually see the current citizenship model quite fine. They don't want to make any changes to it, and the only thing they want to focus on is that you shouldn't add extra time because of administration failure. So if it's— if you applied, you shouldn't wait another 2 years to get citizenship when you already fulfilled the number of years that you need to have to get citizenship. So that's what they want to focus on. They want to— but otherwise, yeah, I mean, it— from how it looks like, Moderaterne is the most pro-internationals, but in fact they are quite moderate, just like their name says. They're quite moderate towards international. Radical Events is way more positive. Towards internationals, and never mind Alternativet and Enhedslisten. And then that takes us to SF. Would you say SF is a very positive party towards internationals? The green left, the socialists. What's your take there?

Kalpita
They have been a bit weird recently. Yeah, I think they've been a bit weird and they've made some contradicting statements, if I'm not mistaken. But I would love to see if they got any kind of space on the table what would they be proposing and where they would be compromising with the internationals.

Narcis
If you remember the poll we made in last week in Denmark, they were the most supported party, 25% by far. So I was just wondering how they managed to get people to be so much in their favor, because I looked at what they propose regarding citizenship and they mainly want to focus on removing the loopholes, crazy rules, all of that. They don't necessarily want to attack any, let's just say, conditions that are now put to, like, okay, conditions that you need to fulfill. And they are willing to, for people who finish, so they're born in Denmark and they finish their education in Denmark, they are willing to allow them an easier way to get citizenship. So they are quite moderate, I would say. They are willing to I'm not sure for who they're fighting, but I feel like they're fighting for spouses of Danish citizens who are not international. That's my feeling there with the whole focus on the crazy rules.

Kalpita
Yeah, which is great, I think. But I mean, yeah, I think naturalization, especially if you're born here, then you shouldn't need to have an education here. If you're born here and you've been living all your life here, you just are a citizen. That's no questions asked. But I wonder if they, like you said, if they're going to consider the loopholes. What are those loopholes that they are going to work on? Because there are so many, and then there are none. Because some of the loopholes, I think, is fraudulent pro forma marriages or fraudulent educational students. That all of those things are also loopholes. So what is it that they are actually considering as a loophole? That's also important.

Narcis
No. They're focusing more on the situations when, let's just say, good-looking citizens are being sent out of the country because of crazy rules. That's mainly what they say. They didn't mention which ones and how, but they just said that too often on the media there appears situations where, for example, young half-Thai, half-Danish girl, because parents divorced, mom died, or something like that, She didn't have citizenship, got sent back to Thailand, to a country she doesn't know. That kind of— I think they're focused more on that. That's why I said focus more on mixed families, spouses of Danish citizens, because there were many situations up here.

Kalpita
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There have been many cases like that, but we are also losing a lot of talent because of that as well. So it makes sense that if they're going to consider education as one of the things, because there are so many people who get who become scientists, who, who get their PhDs, who are doing really good work, but they are sent back because of some immigration rules that don't allow them to stay back because they either don't get a job or their time is over and their visas are not renewed. So we are losing a lot of good, talented people because of some of these loopholes as well. So that's a good thing, I would say, that they would put that on the table.

Narcis
I think, to be honest, no matter what, if all these parties that we just mentioned manage to obtain a majority together with the Social Democrats, the largest party in Denmark, then we will definitely see some sort of positive changes in the citizenship law of one sort or another. So that will be— so if you see now on TV that, oh God, the red majority, somehow that happened, then that's great. It's great news for us. It's absolute great news for us because there couldn't be better news. Because let me tell you, What happens if, let's just say, the impossible happens? Venstre somehow manages to put together all the blue parties and make a blue government. So 4 years of blue. What do you think that will mean in terms of citizenship? That would be fun.

Kalpita
Venstre was known back in the day for having very strict rules, wasn't it? And they did in some way pioneer these very strict rules for not just refugees, but also for people who were trying to get into Denmark. Whether it was to get married to a Danish person who's either EU or non-EU people, but also for students and made really difficult. There was a time when they were changing rules almost every 6 months.

Narcis
Yeah, the good time when Inger Støjberg was the boss, right?

Kalpita
Yeah, exactly. To be fair, she did some good things and then she really damaged.

Narcis
Like what? I don't know. How can you say that?

Kalpita
I remember there was a complaint that they were eating a lot of potatoes in the refugee camps. But what I mean mean that she did some good things is that she did create this immigration fiasco, so to speak. And she's very cleverly been staying away from any of these conversations in recent times, especially since the past 2 years, because it became a big threat to her security and stuff like that. But at the same time, she has also created this big Pandora's box of rules and laws which have loopholes which people are benefiting from, but it also has—

Narcis
those are the crazy rules.

Kalpita
Yeah. And she also has managed to make some rules that people have like really walked a hard line for. People have worked really hard to not just keep their jobs, pay their taxes, and really be these regimental, strict, loyal citizens to Denmark, which is like the flip side of what immigration can do for you. But it's also like, how long do you want to stick around and really play this game? So if it is going to be a complete blue government, then I think then we have a big— we have a big problem, and we have other problems that first need to be solved to them for them to create more.

Narcis
Yeah, I can tell you for sure what will happen if Venstre gets either a blue majority or they get into a center government. Most likely what they will be pushing for are two things. They want to add this value screening to filter out anti-democratic attitudes, which is extremely biased and difficult to— it's like a Ministry of Truth in the sense, like in Harry Potter. But yeah, they want to add this value screen. So that value screening chances to happen is if we have either a center government or a blue government. If it's going to be just a red government, that's not going to happen. So that's first thing on the list. Second thing is that they actually want to start looking at Ukrainian refugees to start packing their bags and go home. It's a bit crazy considering the war is not over and considering most of them have lived 4 years in Denmark. 4 years is a hell of a lot of long time, and telling them that now they have to stop that and go back to a country they probably lost contact with, it's strange in my opinion. I think we should accept the fact that refugees, when they come here, they no longer refugees after a while. It's— you cannot be all your life refugee. You've been here, you're done.

Kalpita
Yeah, but they're doing that now as well, right? They've done that with other war-stricken countries as well. That's— they have sent people, and they have— they're doing the same with Ukrainians as well because they're really looking at their, at their immigration situation, but also the young ones. For example, there was a news I read where they were not getting jobs they come to Denmark and they get everything as, as a refugee should, whether it's residency, home, or whatever they need to settle down. But they do not— they're stuck in this internship loop and they're not getting proper paid jobs. So they're just left out there, which is a similar situation that any other international goes through, right? When you come to Denmark, you want to start off getting a job, but you're stuck with doing an internship after internship. It's the same thing with the job centers as well. So I would say if there are— if the blue government really wants to be strict about these things, then they should also look after what job opportunities people are getting, because then you're just going to lose people after people, right? Irrespective— and I think that would be applicable for any government that comes into power, of what are they going to do with job liquidity.

Narcis
Yes, and that's why there will come values versus economy, because businesses need workers, if possible cheap workers. So they will be pushing like hell the blue government to tone down on what they promised. You can say like this: the business leaders of Denmark are an unlikely hero in the side of the internationals, because if we do get a blue government, depends on business because they are funded by them. Business will be taking out their whip and they will be putting on— there will have to be some concessions from the business side as well because citizens will get extremely angry if they don't get something. So something negative will happen, but not everything. Because God, let's say, Trolls doesn't get to be the biggest party, and Alex, our dear new Alex, young Alex who just took cocaine, he says only 2 times, most likely more than that. Um, what if Alex becomes Prime Minister? Unlikely. But what if he becomes Prime Minister and Liberal Alliance, which To my surprise, a lot of internationals who I met in this more, let's just say, business circles in Copenhagen, they are quite fans of this party, but they don't think they understand what they are supporting. Because yes, while Liberal Alliance wants to remove, for example, the salary threshold for non-EU workers, so they actually said anyone who wants to come to Denmark can come as long as they pay for their own private health insurance. That's a very important thing. And for the first 5 years, you're not allowed to access any sort of Danish benefits. And also apply that to EU citizens.

Kalpita
Oh, okay.

Narcis
That's also a bit crazy. And then if we're talking about citizenship, they want to make it even harder. They say 3.5 years of work, that's not enough. 8 years of work should be enough before you can even be eligible to apply for citizenship.

Kalpita
That's nice.

Narcis
And then imagine this, any non-citizens who are unemployed for more than 3 months should have their residence revoked and sent away.

Kalpita
Wow.

Narcis
So imagine like a Danish ICE going around like, how long do you have in your residence permit? It's your time to go away. When you have a friend who says, oh, I'm a big fan of Alex, he's such a good guy on TikTok and shit. Oh yeah. Have you ever been unemployed for more than 3 months? No. Okay, let me tell you what happens if Liberal Alliance comes into power.

Kalpita
Yeah, that's the thing, right? Not everybody is eligible for benefits. For example, I've been in Denmark for 10 years and I'm not eligible for benefits, any kind of benefits, even after having worked and paid my taxes. Even, say for example, I need to go on Barcel, I don't get any of that either. I'm not allowed to have an A-kasse or anything, like absolutely anything. I need to have a clean reputation and just— that's what I was trying to refer to, that This is a really hard line one needs to walk on if you're a non-EU citizen. So it's not that he's coming up with something new. He's just turning up the volume on everything that's already existing in most cases.

Narcis
But it's— so what you're saying actually is that if they do, this is beneficial for you because that means after 5 years you'll also be able to apply for benefits. That means that also your other colleagues or friends from India, for example, that would like to come as well. They will no longer have a salary. So actually, for non— Liberal Alliance for non-EU, strangely enough, would be a positive thing.

Speaker C
Did you know that the Last Week in Denmark newsletter is available in 8 languages? Hey there, this is Fionn from the Last Week in Denmark podcast, and every week you guys are tuning in to hear me and my fellow co-hosts talk about the top news of the week in English. But let's be real, we're all internationals. So not only are you speaking English every day, you're probably also speaking a bit of Danish. But you've probably also got your own native language as well, like the multilingual master you are. So why not treat yourself to the luxury of being able to read Danish news each week in your own native language? So head on over to lastweekdk.substack.com. That's lastweekdk.substack.com. And sign up for our newsletter delivered to you every single Sunday.

Kalpita
It would be a positive thing, but I want to know what the rules would apply around that because it would also mean that for the past 5 years or out of the 5 years, you need to be having a job for 3 to 4 years. And that's almost impossible because the moment you come to any EU country for that matter, you spend an average of 2 to 2.5 years looking for a job. And that's the statistics that's already out there. I forget where. I think it's Danish statistics where it says that non-EU internationals require a minimum of 2.5 years. And if you have had an education here, it takes you about a year and a half.

Narcis
Okay. So basically the 3 months, go home, rule will counter any sort of positive side. Basically what he wants— actually, this is a complete— let's just say he puts himself down in front of the business world and say, look, I will make sure you have available workforce. People will have to get any job because no matter what, at any salary, because they will have to work. And the focus will be work no matter for what, no matter what. And that will make business world happy. It will give some sort of entry point for non-Europeans compared to the others, but at the same time, it will really destroy any sort of, let's just say, do you see internationals as anything else than workers situation?

Kalpita
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now he's, he's given history. He's not just opening doors to Polish or Romanian laborers that came back in the day, but now it's opening the whole world to do that. And fair enough, that was a different time and people got to establish themselves here in Denmark. But that trick is not working again because we're living in a whole different world. We're living in a whole different requirement economy as well. For all you know, we have no idea how the war in the Middle East and how Trump is going to affect the EU as well. We still have Ukraine, which is an active war zone. We have a threat for Greenland as well. So It's— we also need to consider that all these sort of freebies and frills and everything around immigration and supporting internationals in this way is— it's a bit— I'm afraid to say that it's a bit less thoughtful and more woke, so to speak. I would really like to see some results on, on, on that one because it sounds nice, but is it practical?

Narcis
I think we should use the last minutes to talk about the last three: the conservatives, Inger Støjberg's party, and Morten Messerschmidt's party, which somehow revived and keeps reviving. You can think that's Jesus' party somehow. It's funny because the more blue it gets, the more strange it gets, because now the conservatives, they say they prefer assimilation. They no longer believe in integration. And that's okay. It's shared by DD and DF. They see that, and even the new party, the anti-establishment of Lars Boye, they also see that they want openly assimilation. So they want people to become Danish simply.

Kalpita
Oh God.

Narcis
Culturally, not just on paper. And in that direction, they want to keep people who get citizenship for 10 years in a probationary period. So where if you step out of the line, you can still lose it. So in a way, you got it, but not really.

Kalpita
It's so pitiful. Oh, you have a candy, but you can't eat it until I ask you to eat it.

Narcis
Actually, conservatives and the D, they're not even going the furthest. If you look at DF, they went ballistic. They said not just that last— not just the 10 years, but they want to actually review all the people who got citizenship in the last 20 years. And the ones who got citizenship in the last 8 years, they should retake Danish language and citizenship test.

Speaker C
What?

Narcis
And have a mandatory personal interview with a police officer.

Kalpita
Oh gosh.

Narcis
So that's fun.

Kalpita
They are already re-taking a look at many citizenship applications that have gone in the past, whatever, few years, right? Because there's this big— I think you and I spoke about this where they're talking about criminals and people who not ideal or Danish citizens or fitting into the society that they need to be sent back. So that bit is already happening. So it's not that they're coming up with anything new. No, but everything else is quite petty. But for me, what's more concerning is the resources that's going to go behind that. We have better things to do.

Narcis
Administration, right? Because they keep saying, well, we're going to cut down on administration. We're going to go— how are you going to cut down administration? You need so many people to do this stuff. Just a value screening of thousands of people every 6 months, that will take forever. Or If you want to steal police officers' time from doing actually their work, not only that you bother them with that stupid border control, which makes no sense, but now you want to add another stupid task there. They're already overworked. If you talk to any policeman, they'll tell you that they don't have enough hours in the day and not enough people get hired. And we can't afford to hire another 1,000 policemen unless we create our own ICE, which probably could be the way, right? It's the American model. You just create a new force which is outside of the police, that's politically motivated. Is that something to do with how Nazis came to power? Maybe, if history stays to say anything. I'm not going to say anything, but if DF by any chance sits on your TV screen and says 22%, then well, run. I heard Spain is looking good these days. Spain is really good. I'm actually— I have quite a few friends which are like well-established friends with businesses and everything. Who are looking to buy apartments in Málaga. It seems it's quite affordable. It's more like a Danish city by now anyway, 50,000 Danes live in that city. So you know what, if it's the F, it's the F until for next 4 years, then we just all go to Spain. I was actually looking forward to a change, to be honest. I'm not going to stay here and watch this happening for sure because I will get so angry every day. It will be hard to live in a country where every day they will be doing something new, stupid and crazy. This is only what they say now. But you have to imagine that while the Reds are, let's just say, censoring themselves and not going too far on our side, the Blues are not going too far against us so that they don't somehow make other groups of population angry. So wherever you hear from a Blue Party is not the worst they could do if they get in power. Worse is not being said.

Kalpita
Yeah, it also begs the question of, are you Danish enough? Enough. That, that, that is just the theme of, of this party as well, right? Are you Danish enough? And how do you decide that? Are Danes even Danish enough? Some people don't— can't even get through a Danish citizenship test and the whole language and everything because there's so many people out there who are Danish and are not able to do even half of the things that any international is doing to fit in to the Danish society. So I think they should really relax a little bit and find some more less petty and more logical ways of creating an ethnic society, if that's what they want.

Narcis
In the end, it's about the 22%. There is 22% of the population in Denmark who is radicalized against internationals, and they know that 22% is a hell of a lot of power to get in Denmark. It could make you the largest party. Almost. They go all in for that one group hoping to get power, and in the end, will they really do everything there? Also, there's also something funny because I met people from DF, like politicians, and they say anything they need to say to cater to their group of voters publicly, but in reality, many of them are married with internationals. Many of them pretend to say bullshit stuff just for stuff. But would they actually do any of those things? More or less no. There are some crazies though, some of the new generation in DF who don't understand that they're supposed to pretend to get power, not to actually do whatever the hell they are saying. And that's dangerous, these young people who are very keen to show— ah, like Mikkel Bjørn, right? That guy is a young little I'm not going to say what, but you all know what I'm thinking.

Kalpita
Yeah, the youth, that's a whole different subject and we can have a whole different podcast on that. Absolutely. But I hope, I hope there are some very good negotiations and something either way looks like is going to be positive for internationals, whether it's a long-term positive or it's a short-term positive. We will have to, we will have to find out. But internationals have been on politicians' mind and they are also very aware that they cannot do without us.

Narcis
Exactly. So with that note, I think we can say good luck to all of us, and let's hope that when we make the next episode— I'm not sure when I'm gonna be on the next episode, but we should probably have a follow-up after the elections episode. So whoever is next, next week, will get the chance to discuss probably the either the already the new government or the first negotiations and how does that look for us. So tune in next week as well and find out how is it looking for us the next 4 years. Is Spain gonna be your new country or not? Thank you for this time.

Kalpita
Thank you very much for your time.


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LWID

Host
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Kalpita Bhosale

Guest
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Narcis George Matache

Guest