Last Week in Denmark

Denmark’s Injury Payout Shock, Barter Boom, Mother Group Shake-Up & AI Burnout: LWID S5E16

• Season 5 • Episode 16

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Danish Insurance Shock, Barter Taxes, Danish Mother Groups Revival & AI Slop: Dom and Fionn discuss a Danish Supreme Court ruling that could reopen compensation claims, the tax risks hiding inside Denmark’s barter boom, a new parent app challenging postcode based mother groups, and why heavy AI use may be draining workers’ brains and lowering creative standards. 

Topics: 

(03:45) Denmark insurance compensation

(10:00) Barter economy

(18:16) Danish mother groups

(25:00) AI brain fry

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Dominika

Welcome to the Last Week in Denmark podcast. Each week, we're here to talk through Danish news, stories and developments and how they impact internationals living here. If you're an international living in Denmark or thinking of moving here, you'll wanna check out many of these episodes. We've got four full seasons ready for you to explore and new episodes every week during season five. I'm Dom, and I'm here with Fionn today. This episode, we're going to discuss four very exciting topics, namely a major Supreme Court ruling from last Tuesday that could cost insurance companies millions. The barter economy is picking up in Denmark, but what about the taxes? And then a new app to create mother groups based on values, not just your zip code. And last but not least, are you frying your brain with AI? Before we get going though, we'd like to ask one thing: if what we're talking about resonates with you, you agree or disagree with us, please leave a comment for us on Spotify or YouTube. We're here to help internationals in Denmark stay informed and feel connected. Thanks for helping us reach more people like you. So, hello, Fionn. Nice to see you again.

Fionn

Hey, Dom, how are you?

Dominika

I'm doing very good. I'm dogsitting right now, so I have a little furry friend for the next few days with me, so it… it's a nice change.

Fionn

I am supremely jealous of you right now. I have a seven-year-old at home who is very keen to get a pet, and he is very distraught about the fact that we've told him his little sister, who's just turned three should maybe be, like, four or five before that responsibility is introduced in her life, and he's really been beating himself up about this whole thing. And...

Dominika

Oh, no. 

Fionn

You know, I had to have my parent voice on and explain why maybe we need to wait a little bit. And inside, I'm like, “buddy I am with you, I'm on your side.” I don't care if it's a dog, I don't care if it is a cat. I mean, as long as it is vaguely fluffy and wants some cuddles, I want it in my life. 

Dominika

You’re game. 

Fionn

I'm game. I'm game. Yeah, I'm jealous.

Dominika

Yeah, but it is a huge responsibility, and I think that's what made me realize that I'm an adult. Is when I realized that I probably would not want to have a dog now because it's just too much responsibility. And it's a sad moment in life to come to that conclusion [laughs]. To lose your innocence.

Fionn

It's the thing about aging. You know, when you're a teenager, it feels like, “oh, I didn't do that, but there'll always be another opportunity. That door closed, but it'll open again in future.” And that's part of getting older is, like, that door closed, and sadly, I have to admit to myself that I am never going to be a rockstar with purple hair. It’s just, it's not going to happen at this point in my life.

Dominika

[Laughs] Yeah. Yeah, but you can be cool in other ways, right? I mean, you are a podcaster, so... 

Fionn

[Laughs] Yeah, so despite being a podcaster, maybe we can be cool in other ways. The last few days it was tax back money in Denmark, and if you're very bad at estimating what you're going to make in a year, like I am, it's a great savings scheme because then you get some taxes back each year. Or if you're really bad, maybe you have to pay them more. But typically, apparently, we're on the side of getting some money back. I went out and bought a new pair of binoculars for myself today because…

Dominika

Wow!

Fionn

…speaking of aging, I've been getting into bird watching, and I've very embarrassingly been using my son's child's binoculars. They're, like, came in a National Geographic magazine or something. Yeah so I treated myself today, so...

Dominika

Wow.

Fionn

That's definitely, definitely scratching the surface of cool, I think. 

Dominika

Yeah, I, I don't even know what to say to that. I'm... 

Fionn

You don't sound convinced. [Laughs]

Dominika

[Laughs] No, I'm, I'm very happy for you, though. [Laughs]

Fionn

Thank you, thank you. 

Dominika

Okay. [Laughs] Well, I think that's… that's a good point to segue into the first topic, maybe. So we are supposed to talk about a major Supreme Court ruling. So, two big Danish insurance companies, Tryg and Alm. Brand, they're falling recently on the stock market, following a recent ruling on Tuesday. The Supreme Court concluded in a landmark case that compensation is awarded for a loss of earning capacity of 5% or more, where previously the threshold was 15%. So, have you heard of this, and do you even know how loss of earning capacity is calculated?

Fionn

Yes to the first question, no to the second. I am beautiful, but I'm not intelligent. [Laughs] Um, I have heard a little bit about this, this story and, to be honest, I, I hadn't even been aware at first that there was this 15% limit. Although, I didn't have strong feelings on it one way or the other. I'm lucky enough that I have never had an accident or a debilitating injury in the workplace and had to think about this. I think, obviously, you mentioned the stock prices of these two companies falling and, naturally, our heart always bleeds for the shareholders. 

Dominika

Of course. 

Fionn

But there is also a human story in this as well, which is a a woman who suffered a concussion after a car trunk, I think, hit her head while at work. And that case kind of became a a test on whether smaller losses of earnings should still count as compensation-worthy. And yeah, I I think it's an interesting… it’s an interesting story because the court has kind of said that, just because an injury doesn't destroy your whole working life, it doesn't mean that there's no economic cost to it. And… I don't know if I would say I was a little bit taken aback by that, but maybe confronted by it in a way that I haven't really had to, and as I said, been very lucky that I haven't had to think about this before. Because if somebody loses 5% or 10% of their earning capacity, it’s a small number, but maybe that's the kind of loss that can really reshape a person's life over decades. What do you think?

Dominika

For sure. Yeah, for sure. I think it can really make you change the way you think about your career. I think a good example could be if you get sensitive to blue light, for example, and you can't stare at a screen for too long. That is a loss of earning capacity. And… and yeah, the reason I asked you if you know how to calculate it was because I also didn't, and I looked into it because it's, to me, it seemed like a very abstract thing. How do you calculate that? And basically the way they do it is, they subtract your post-injury income from your pre-injury income. They divide that by your pre-injury income, and then they multiply that by 100, and that's how you get the percentage. So it's basically the difference of what you could have made without the injury and what you are making right now. So quite interesting.

Fionn

Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things with this case, obviously, is that there is a fear or a potential that, you know, this kind of opens the door for a lot of old cases... 

Dominika

Yeah.

Fionn

...where people had been assessed at being below 15%. I saw the union HK, or Hå Kå as I'm sure it is for a Dane, saying that some people might now have a claim, whereas I think it's Ankestyrelsen - that's the Danish Appeals Board - they were basically saying that they're still reviewing the judgment, and they'll later kind of explain what it means in practice and give some concrete cases. So, a door is opened here. We don't know how many people are going to be walking through it. But what we have definitely seen with this is Dansk industry being a bit worried. So that is, the representative or the lobby group for for for Danish businesses worried about the retroactive costs that this could bring to either employers, or insurance companies or the government, right? Depending on how compensation would actually be paid out.

Dominika

For sure. I think I, I read somewhere that Tryg set aside a one-time provision of 1.2 billion crowns before tax for, exactly, compensation in old cases, and it is a thing that is going to, I think, change quite a lot because the Supreme Court is as high as it gets, and it, it sets precedents for the future. And then I think there's also a number somewhere that there may be 53,000 cases that are eligible for compensation. So, I think it is quite interesting to see where that will go.

Fionn

Obviously, with this podcast we tend to think about things through the lens of internationals living in Denmark. And I was kind of thinking, well does this affect them more or less than, than anyone else? And I think what I came up with was that, no this probably doesn't affect internationals more than the general population, but it could still matter quite a lot. Maybe if you're listening to this and you're thinking, “well, would this apply to me?” You know, you shouldn't assume that this only applies to Danes because if you were working in the Danish workplace and the Danish workplace industry system, that should, kind of, apply to you, right? If the work injury caused a clear, lasting loss of earning capacity. And now you know how to calculate that. But I think maybe what could be interesting is that this ruling could be hard obviously for people who've subsequently left Denmark. It could be hard just based on finding the, the documentation and, and putting all that together. But the one thing I was thinking maybe is there are some, obviously, international employers, but there's also some sectors that really employ a lot more, what you would maybe think of as stereotypically as migrant labor, and those are very often actually more likely to have workplace injuries because, by their nature, many of them are more physical-skilled labor rather than, you know, getting carpal tunnel syndrome from cleaning their mouse too often. 

Dominika

For sure. For sure. And I also think that maybe one more thing to consider is that there is quite a language barrier, and it's not always easy to understand how all those insurances and systems work as an international. So I think there could be more of a challenge there if you were not born here and don't speak the language so well.

Fionn

Absolutely. It's something that is for everyone, but I think it's maybe easier for internationals to potentially miss out on compensation that they could have been entitled to.

Dominika

For sure. Well, speaking of compensation, there is another type of compensation or, I don't know, currency that is becoming popular in Denmark, and that is the barter economy. So, people have recently taken up swapping everything ranging from ceramics, experiences, or plants and tattoos even. They do it usually online, on Instagram or Facebook. There's different forums for that. The proponents say that it's a sustainable alternative to consumption and buying new. But experts warn that not everyone knows about the tax implications. So, when was the last time you swapped something?

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Fionn

That is such a good question. And that's a question that you would think I thought about, and I definitely didn't. I'm trying to think the last time I swapped something. I can tell you this: I advised somebody on swapping something only this morning, which was, uh, some Pokémon cards. There was gonna be a a trade of Pokémon cards going down, and I was really trying to push that like, “well if this guy's giving you these ones you really want, you can't just give the the crappy cards that you don't want. There should be some some value to it.” Um… but I don't know if I've ever really done like a, a bartering deal, and I feel like I'm bringing shame to my my ancestors with that, you know? There's surely somebody in the past who’s shaking their head because I haven't traded some chickens for a cow. I mean, I think it's a shift in some ways because, obviously, the barter economy, there's a growing number of Danes doing it, or it's kind of growing in interest in Denmark, but it's not a new economy, that's for sure. It's, like, the ancient economy. Maybe it's the ancient economy with an Instagram account now because it’s like an older form of commerce that's being facilitated through tech platforms, right? 

Dominika

Yeah, for sure. 

Fionn

It's made it so easy to, to reach all these people. And I know myself, and it's obviously not necessarily the barter economy, but, like, one of the greatest finds I've had over the last year was a platform like Vinted, right? Where you can buy used clothing. And as somebody who loves kind of vintage clothes, this is a no-brainer, and I tell myself that I save a lot of money, and I tell myself that I'm gonna sell things on it as well, and so far I've only bought things on it, and I haven't saved money. 

Dominika

I think it still counts as saving. 

Fionn

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. There was no way I would have… well, no I shouldn't say there was no way I would've gone out and bought that coat if if I hadn't got it secondhand. That's probably true, but mentally, yeah, I've definitely I've… I've, I've earned a lot of value, let's put it that way. But I think, maybe, the interesting thing in all of that and that's a very circuitous way of me coming to this is… So it is like, it's an old economy, it's being facilitated by new platforms, and I think the interesting thing is, maybe, part of the appeal that I would see is actually an appeal of human connection. So many things are removed from that, and even paying for stuff today is just like tapping your phone, right? On something. Or sending something on MobilePay. You don't even have to take out cash most of the time. So, I do think it's interesting that it's an actual human connection; here's something I value, here's something you value, let's, let's swap them. Would you trade something you made or like a skill you have, or would you rather just, like, set a price, keep it simple, one and done?

Dominika

I would, actually, to be honest, I can't remember the last time I traded something. The only thing I remember was, I think, like, maybe ten years ago, there was this lady who became famous for trading, like, trading her way up from a hairpin to a house. I think that was a big thing at some point. I don't know if you remember that.

Fionn

I do remember that! This could be that it's happened multiple times, but if it's the one I'm thinking of, I also think it's ten years ago. It was 2005. It was 2005.

Dominika

Oh, my God!

Fionn

And at least the one I'm thinking of, and I'm sure people have replicated this, but the one that was really famous it was called the the “One Red Paperclip,” and it was a Canadian blogger, Kyle MacDonald. He had a paperclip, and he wanted to get a house. I think he said he'd had a childhood game around it called “Bigger and Better” where you just try and get bigger and better things. And this became, like, really, really famous because yeah he traded up for small things at first. It was like paperclip to a pen, then to I don't know… a little campstove or something. And eventually it ended up with, like, an evening with Alice Cooper and, yeah, then a role in a movie, and I think he traded the role in the movie for a house? Which was out in rural Canada somewhere. But uh… really, really interesting. And I think it took him around a year to do it, but I think that inspired a lot of people.

Dominika

Yeah, for sure. But at the same time, I think in Denmark, maybe the whole barter thing is a bit more equal, where people don't necessarily aim to climb the ranks of what they're exchanging, right? And it's more just, "oh, let's have a fair exchange of goods and services." And I had a reflection, because one of the articles I was reading about it was a lady who does pottery, and she either accepts payment in cash for it or things that people are willing to trade. And I thought it's quite interesting, because I think a lot of the times, at least in my case, for example, I think women sometimes maybe struggle a bit to put a monetary value on their work and, like, struggle to charge what they're worth. So I think actually bartering it for something that has equal value to you is quite an interesting way to go around it.

Fionn

I think you're absolutely right. And you mentioned reflecting on it. That's not something I'd thought of before. It does remind me a little bit of... so in a previous job, I worked in a influencer marketing, kind of, tech company, and, obviously, one of the kind of divides, you could almost say, between whether an influencer is a, is a big influencer or a small influencer is, are they getting paid in money or are they getting gifts? And that is really like a bargaining system then, right? It is exactly that. And one of the… the implications or one of the tricky areas for influencers, I remember, was taxation. And there was a lot of legislation coming through in various countries. I know back in Ireland there was a there was a big thing about it. Also some things here in Denmark. And I think that also kind of plays into this. Because as far as I understand it the guidance from SKAT - the Danish tax - is, if you and I were to I don't know swap a cool hat for a funny snow globe, that's completely fine. But if you are actually a photographer, right, saying, "yeah I'll come and photograph your wedding, but in return… I don’t know… you give me a bike,” then there could actually be tax implications because it's like a payment in kind, even if it's not cash.

Dominika

Yeah. So I think the most important difference, I guess, is whether you're an individual or a business. And I think one of the guidances from SKAT was also, write down everything you barter and then write down the perceived value of it, which I can imagine is also tricky because, how do you put value on certain things?

Fionn

Especially if they're, they're not new, right?

Dominika

No, exactly. 

Fionn

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's… it’s definitely an interesting time. I wonder, and maybe it's a bit doomery or conspiracy, but at a time when there's so much social upheaval in many ways, is it kind of showing a lack of trust in “the system,” if you want to put air quotes around that, but in the kind of current setup? I know with all the advice on prepping and, you know, making sure you have emergency supplies and everything, I very often look at the things that are in my pantry, and I'm like, "great well we have water, but we also have all this wine that my parents brought," and I don't really drink that much wine. What could I get for that? What could I get for that during a nuclear winter? Should we just get a little bit more sugar when sugar runs out, and everybody's going absolutely crazy with the withdrawal cravings? But uh…

Dominika

Yeah. 

Fionn

That's just how I entertain myself on a Friday night. 

Dominika

Fair enough. I'll take the wine. I don't know what I have that you could need for… for an end of the world situation, but we can find something. [Laughs]

Fionn

[Laughs] Clearly bird seeds so I can, uh, you know lure some birds in and test out my new binoculars. 

Dominika

Oh, yeah. There you go. There you go. [Laughs] Synergy.

Fionn

Exactly, exactly. 

Dominika

Oh, well, I think that brings us to our third topic of the day, which is an app called Poppy, founded by a lady who, when she became a mother, she got assigned to a mother's group by the government, as is done. But after a short time, the group fell apart because the members were in different stages of their lives and had different values, and basically the only thing in common that they had was their postcode, because that's how the government assigns these groups. So, together with her partner, she created an app called Poppy, and parents on that app can form their own groups based on factors such as their values or lifestyle preferences, et cetera. So, I imagine you might have more to say than me on this topic since you are a parent, and you've probably experienced this.

Fionn

Yeah. Yeah, I haven't personally been part of a mother's group, which I think is just plain discrimination. But I do know somebody who has. [Laughs] And I… I found this story quite interesting, and I'm a little bit torn in terms of my feelings around it. I think, first of all, I do think there is a lot of good idea in this, and… I can say in terms of why I think it's a good idea. Well, I have two kids. When we had our first child, we actually lived in another country, and we moved to Denmark when my son was only about five months old, and my partner is Danish. But even still, despite him still being so small, the system kind of struggled to assign a, a mother's group to to my partner, because it was like, "well we weren't there when he was born, so how can we fix that? And don't expect us to." And I know then, when my daughter was born, it was four and a half years later, we were settled, we were in the house where we, we live now, and she was assigned to a mother's group. But exactly as kind of the, the experience of the founder of this app was, I think the people in it were lovely, but they were all at kind of different stages. And I think quite a number of them were in the same profession, and my partner was in a kind of different profession and, and sometimes felt not excluded, and particularly I don't think deliberately excluded at all. But that it was sometimes hard to connect when everyone else had such a, like, shared things in common, and, and she, maybe, felt a little bit outside of that. Now that said, there are some people from that group that we still see. So, I think the system definitely works to a degree, and I can really understand why people want to find a group; your life is changing, you want to find people that are going through the same thing you are, but also people that you want to spend time with. I think what gives me a little bit of hesitation is two things. I think one of them is, right now we live in an era where we can really filter and curate so many things about our lives. When I sit down to watch TV, my kids have no concept of, you sit down and watch TV and you watch whatever's on [laughs] because you're desperate to, to see some lights on a screen. They get to choose; they get to choose what's on Netflix; they get to choose the episode; they can go back and watch the same episode because their favorite character was on it. And it's the same with Spotify, like, who listens to whole albums anymore compared to curated playlists or, you know, the the songs that we save? And this does feel a little bit like that, to a degree. And I think the, the other part of it is, one of the ideas with, okay you put people in the same postcode together, it's crude in some sense, but it is designed at least in part to encourage a kind of social mixing, right? So... 

Dominika

Yeah. 

Fionn

... yes, people from a postcode will live roughly in the same area. Most places will have kind of roughly the same socioeconomic demographics. But not universally. And I think there is a lot to be said about meeting people from outside of your bubble and being exposed to people's life experiences from outside of your bubble. And so, my very long-winded conclusion to this is, I think… I think there's a lot of value in something like this, and I actually, uh, long story short, really support this. But I think it, maybe, makes most sense, from my point of view, as an addition rather than a replacement.

Dominika

Hmm. Yeah. I think that makes sense. And I, I would agree with you. You can be part of more than one mother's group, right? Or, or dad's group, I assume.

Fionn

Absolutely, yeah. 

Dominika

Yeah. Yeah. But it is true that I think we now can curate everything in our lives, including the people that we surround ourselves with. But on the other hand, we already spend some time, especially if we go to work with people that we didn't really choose to be surrounded by. 

Fionn

That's very true. 

Dominika

So, yeah, to be honest, I think, I, I think the same thing as you, that there's both pros and cons to it. But I also think that, especially as an international, there is value in meeting people that you wouldn't have otherwise met. I can assume if you have a young child, there's also value in just being connected with people that live nearby because they have the same postcode. So I guess there's maybe the added… added element of that.

Fionn

Yeah, definitely. And I think the international angle as you, as you mentioned. So in the, the classic sense, if you're there and you, you have your child here, you will be paired up with probably Danes, and that can be, maybe, challenging and a little bit scary if you're not fluent in Danish, or if, if the other people in the group are not particularly comfortable in, in English or, uh, another language. There is still value in that, I think, as well, right? To, to have that little push. Now, is that the perfect moment in your life to suddenly like, "okay, I've just had a new baby, and I'm not getting any sleep, and, you know, I'm still recovering. Let me pass my Danish language test [laughs], in a, in a different way." But I think the other, the flip side of it is, maybe people who are arriving, right? Having just had a baby, and they're kind of… fall into that little crack in the system or would kind of get, would get a little bit ignored, maybe, by it otherwise, I think this is a, a really nice way of giving that option as well. So yeah, I think having… having another option and a way to do things is, is always good. I hope it is something that, and I think this is very much the intent behind it, but I hope that it is something that strengthens communities as opposed to just a way of kind of curating and saying, "well, this should only be people who kind of match my lifestyle or match my values, and I shouldn't be confronted with other points of view or or other lifestyles." 

Dominika

For sure. I agree. And… and it's also just good practice, I think, for who you are as a person and for your brain to engage with something that's maybe a little bit outside of your comfort zone, which brings me in a very smooth segue to our last topic.

Fionn

Oh, bravo! [Laughs]

Dominika

[Laughs] So there was a new study published in Harvard Business Review, and it shows that one in seven people who use AI at work experience AI brain fry, which sounds like a noodle dish you would order somewhere. Can I have one AI brain fry, please?

Fionn

[Laughs] We're only a few years away from that being reality. 

Dominika

[Laughs] Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. So it's basically a phenomenon where excessive AI usage, it tires out your brain, leads to headaches, brain fogs, and trouble focusing. Have you experienced AI brain fry?

Fionn

I don't know if I have. I'm probably still in the other six out of seven people so far.

Dominika

That's good. 

Fionn

[Laughs] Yeah, so far. I mean my brain is completely wrong for many other reasons, but those are all my own fault. I can't blame AI for those. No, I think AI is a very complicated topic, and I think we're gonna be talking about it for many, many years. Obviously, it is completely revolutionary. You don't need to be listening to me on this podcast to tell you that. But… I think I've had two kind of experiences with it. I use it every single day. I… I use it for work. It is great at reducing or automating so many of the tasks that I have to do, which by themselves maybe don't add value. Or they're necessary, but they are not the things that spark joy in my life or they are things that just need to be done, and they need to be done well, and of course they need to be checked that the output from the AI is, is correct. But then I have hopefully, more time to focus on, on the things that, you know, I I want to do. And I, in my job, I do things like this. So I help produce podcasts, and webinars, and events and video series, which I love. The thing I don't love is when, and this is not just gonna be my therapy session, but it's when, right, you are maybe under tight deadlines or something comes up, and it's like, " you can do it; just… just use AI." 

Dominika

Yeah. 

Fionn

And, okay, for us to actually achieve this timeline we're going to have to, but I'm going to have to use AI for the bits I want to be doing, and the bits that I would love to have a disembodied robot doing, like the stakeholder management, like chasing people, "hey we need your input if we're going to make the thing you want." That, that's still the stuff I need to to be handling, and the, the creative briefs and everything are, at least in part, being formatted and everything by, by AI. So, that's, I think, definitely… definitely a challenge, right? That balance. I'm sure anyone who has used Copilot, or ChatGPT or any of the large language models has encountered is, “I'm going to use AI to do task X, and subsequently, I'm going to spend so much time correcting the AI and asking it, why did you do that?” [Laughs] 

Dominika

[Laughs] Yeah. 

Fionn

“I asked you to take A and output B, and you have given me a weekly shopping list instead.” And that, of course, is very frustrating and, and very draining . So yeah, I think it's very much a double-edged sword for so many reasons in society. But I can really understand people getting burnt out about it and the idea that it's something that should be kind of a, a force multiplier; “I, I can be more efficient with this,” but can sometimes turn into, “well my superiors or companies just, will expect so much more” and expect things that well, "just use AI for it." And it's like, an AI can't do that, or it definitely can't do that well. You're just going to expect more from me with a kind of excuse that, you know, you should just use this magic wand to make everything perfect.

Dominika

Yeah, totally agree. And I think, the study was also showing that, while it's one out of seven people that get this brain fry from using AI, when it comes to marketing professionals, it's actually one in four, which I think both you and I are, to a certain extent. In my case, when it comes to AI usage, I, I try and use it like a boomer. I think there's some things that are good in life that you do like a boomer. So I try and have some stringent rules about it. And I think one of the most important things you can do is not use it to create stuff and leave the creation. Like, I know so many people who use it to generate emails and things like that. And I mean, if you're not writing your own emails, then what… what's even the point of having you as a person? So, I think it's great for when you study certain things, and you have certain things explained to you; I use it a lot for that. Also, just correcting things when you're done with something. But yeah, when I see the amount of AI slop out there, that depresses me a bit.

Fionn

And I think that's the thing. So one of my wishes in life, right, if I could change something about myself, I would love to be more artistic in the sense of actually being good at producing art. I'm artistic in the sense that I love consuming art, but don't ask me to draw anything because you will get a stick man. There's been times when I found that very frustrating. It's like, I feel like I have all these ideas; I would love to be able to visualise them, and I can't. And, of course, with AI, well that, kind of, barrier to entry is somewhat lowered. Now, I think there's an ethical thing about, do you just replace artists with a soulless machine? I don't think we should. Especially when those machines have been trained on actual people and living artists' art, whether it be images or words or music. And I think that is a real kettle of fish to open up. But, um, the thing I kind of… regret that AI has done is it has really dramatically lowered the bar for quality, and quality acceptable to put out. So, you mentioned AI slop, and I think it's the perfect word that we as a society have come up with to describe so much of the output, which is really low effort. Especially around the generation of art and images. And I kind of feel like, okay, well I've had to learn to deal with not being able to, to paint a perfect canvas. That shouldn't just mean that we can tell AI to do it, and it makes something actually pretty terrible a lot of the time, but we just say, “oh, this is perfect, let me, let me post this as part of some official campaign” or, or onto a LinkedIn or something like that. I've seen a lot of people clearly using it to create things. It could be a LinkedIn post or a blog or something and not even taking out the, "here is your polished version that makes you sound, you know, really, really smart and knowledgeable." Even in the days of "let me copy the Wikipedia article," most people knew to, [laughs] to remove the, the byline or the, the link buttons at the bottom. And it just seems like that is eroding that, that level of self-awareness or, or standards that, that people have around what they actually produce, and what they want, you know, the world to see as their… their work. 

Dominika

Yeah, for sure. And I think it, I think that also goes back a little bit to just respecting things made by humans. So, in my case, I've always been into music, and singing has always been my passion. I mean, I'm, I'm not perfect, but it's something I've been, I've been honing this craft for many, many years. I recently started taking up piano lessons, and, like, it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of time to read notes, and play a song and train your voice in a way that people want to listen to it. And then, like, you put so much work into something that you're passionate about, and then you speak to people who use an AI software to generate a song in a few clicks. And it just feels like… I don't know, it feels a little bit disrespectful to the craft of art that people do in their free time.

Fionn

100%. And one of the things that it really reminds me of is modern art. So when I was a kid, I loved art, I loved going to art galleries, and then I was privileged enough to be taken to MoMA, the modern art museum in New York. And I was just, like, horrified! What is this? It's a glass of water on a shelf, and the label says that this is an oak tree. And I thought like, "somebody has just absolutely spoofed on this." Some huge big painting, and it's enormous, but it's all red, that's it. And you know who's this guy Rothko? Uh… and then I still think within the artistic world there, there can be some chancers, as we would call them in Ireland, but understanding as I grew up, as I studied art, that you're not seeing just the thing; you are seeing the process that an artist has gone through to come up with this, right?

Dominika

Yeah, exactly.

Fionn

And you see, well, the glass of water on a shelf that is an oak tree… it's more than just a glass of water; it's a thought experiment. It is a challenge to you. It is a challenge to, what do we consider to be, to be art? The big red painting; the more you look at it, the more things you actually see emerging from it. And… none of that comes out of an AI-generated song or an AI-generated image, right? There is no process behind it that a human has had experiences and translated them into something creative and beautiful. So, that's… that’s my AI burnout. [Laughs]

Dominika

[Laughs] No, I 100% agree. It's not just the physical output, but what got you there and what it makes people feel. I also think art is always inherently political, so what message are you sending with it too from your heart, basically? So, that is an aspect of it. But I think on the other hand, there is a bit of a movement now towards actually appreciating human-made stuff. And I think people do maybe think about it that way a bit now, where I think people would rather get an ugly ceramics cup made by their friend than, I don't know, a super polished mug with an AI picture on it. So I hope that it will keep on moving that way, and people will give it some more thought.

Fionn

Right there with you.

Dominika

[Laughs] All right. Well, I'm glad we agree. And yeah, to any of the listeners wondering we are real people, not AIs.

Fionn

For now. For now. 

Dominika

[Laughs] For now. Well, I think maybe that is a good way to end it. That we're real people, we're still here talking about politics, and we're not going anywhere.

Fionn

Yeah, and I think that's a nice red thread, maybe, between the different stories this week, right? It's kind of all about value, [outro music begins] like, the value we put on our working life, the value of things we, we trade and create that transcend money. And, of course, with the app and the idea of forming these groups, like, the value of who we surround ourselves. And I think… going through all of those and really going through our through our last topic, the value of human connection. Whether it is… it is through something bartered or the people… the people you choose to meet or the things we create.

Dominika

Yeah, totally agree. I think it's the perfect way to end. Thank you for a great conversation, and I will see you next time. And thank you for listening, to the listeners.

Fionn

Bye-bye.


[Outro music ends]

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LWID

Host
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Dominika Handzlik

Guest
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Fionn O'Toole

Guest