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Denmark Preps, Maersk Costs & Gaming Traps: LWID S5E17

• Season 5 • Episode 17

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Danish Resilience, Price Pressure & Gaming Risks: Fionn, Narcis and guest Serena Leka discuss why Denmark’s crisis advice matters for international households, how disruption around Hormuz could feed into everyday prices, and why loot boxes in children’s games are raising serious concerns about gambling-style design. 

Topics: 

(02:10) Europe Day

(10:15) Denmark prepping

(21:46)  Hormuz Costs

(32:28)  Loot Boxes 

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🎵 Music,Jack Leatherbarrow @ Wizmedia: https://wiz-media.co.uk/

Fionnuala Toole:

Hello and welcome to The Last Week in Denmark podcast, where each week we talk through some of the top stories that happened last week in Denmark. We like to focus on how they impact internationals living here, so if that sounds like you, well then, welcome home. We are so glad you're here. If you're a first-time listener, we've got 4 full seasons ready for you to explore, and we have new episodes coming out every week during Season 5. My name is Fionnuala Toole, and joining me this week for Episode 17 of Season 5, the Last Week in Denmark founder, Narcis George-Mataki. Hi, Narcis.


Narcis:

Hello, hello, hello, and happy Europe Day. I know this episode comes long after, but we are recording this on the 9th of May, Europe Day. So for me, it's an important day to say happy Europe Day.


Fionnuala Toole:

We are also joined by a very special guest, Serena Leyka. Serena is an innovation lecturer, consultant, an AI enthusiast, and a startup mentor who works between academia, entrepreneurship, and technology. She's especially focused on how we turn big ideas into real-world impact and how we make innovation ecosystems inclusive along the way. Serena, it's great to have you.

Serena Leka: Good day.

Narcis: Hello. Hello.

Serena Leka:

Thank you for having me. I'm excited, even though I'm speaking like slow voice and a low voice.

Fionnuala Toole:

That's the easy listenable podcast voice. Well, this week we're going to be exploring a new survey which suggests that most people in Denmark are still not prepared to manage at home during a major crisis. We will be looking at the impact that the disruption around the Strait of Hormuz is having on a Danish shipping giant and how a large part of the bill from that might end up with you and me. And finally, we'll be talking about the Danish member of the European Parliament who wants the EU to ban loot boxes after a new survey found that more than half of children aged 11 to 16 have bought them. Just before we get going, though, we would love to ask you one thing. If you enjoyed today's episode, please leave a review. Share this podcast with somebody you know. It all helps us help internationals stay in Denmark, feel more informed, and feel connected. So thank you so much for helping us reach more people that are just like you. Guys, it's wonderful to have you both. And Narcis, you mentioned that it is Europe Day, the day we're recording. Why don't you tell us exactly what that means to you?

Narcis:

Well, what that means is that the moment we finished with recording this podcast, which is very, very early, I'm going to go and I'm going to raise the flag in my garden. I do that every single year because it's just a way to mark it. When I was younger,  much younger, I'll be active in this youth European youth organisations. And then, besides raising the flag, we will have to always organise some sort of an event in the city centre to kind of show everyone that it's Europe Day, remind them that it's Europe Day, and to understand just how important this day is for us. So I remained with this habit even though I'm no longer one of those young kids running around giving out the EU cupcakes on the streets, uh, dressed as an EU superhero style. Now, uh, now at least I'm continuing this thing with the flag. I'm looking forward to take my children outside and doing this little, let's just say, tradition together. Fionn, Serena, do you guys celebrate Europe Day in any way, or do you think about it?

Serena Leka:

You got me back to my young days as well. Back home in Albania, I started as an activist during my high school and college years back home. So, of course, as an Albanian and as the region aspiring to join the EU in general, you have yourself in many activities and all sorts of organizations that are promoting EU values and democracy, and all sorts of projects like that. Myself, I have met two of the members of the European Parliament directly in closed-door rooms, both German. It was mostly because of my work back home in the education system. I was running a project on denouncing corruption in the higher education system in Albania from 2013 to 2015, and that became part of the progress reports of the country to join the EU on the education sector and the education reform. So I got back to the old days. But like I usually try to say, or I explain in the audience, one of the reasons I left Denmark is that I would either be a politician or in jail if I stayed home. So now I say, better to be in the Danish jail if that comes to happen. So I'm still navigating that here after almost 11 years in Denmark. But yes, this is my relation to the EU Day from the old days.

Narcis:

Do you still keep in touch with the old organizations in Albania, or trying to support in any way? Because you kind of been part of Albania's path to join the EU, and I guess if it joins the EU, they should like recognize all the people that have, you know, participated in making that happen. Do you still contribute in any way?

Serena Leka:

Definitely. Well, the Albanian diaspora is huge. It's massive. Sometimes the unproven numbers say that we are more than 15 million abroad. So it would be difficult to recognize everybody that leaves Marcus or has an impact on the EU progression. But I really try my best to contribute, but now less in the activism arena because that really requires you to be present. Of course, I sign all sorts of petitions and tried to push my family members to join protests or at least stay aware. But now my most contributions is with the startup community and the entrepreneurs back home, and especially women. So I try to get 1 or 2 women every year that I mentor, either within the country or help them export towards EU and world markets somehow.

Narcis:

That's really cool. Fionn, what about you? Do you do anything on Europe Day? Does it mean anything to you?

Fionnuala Toole:

I help host an award-winning podcast that's aimed at internationals in Denmark and makes them feel more at home and integrated as part of the overall European project. No, I have to admit, I feel very, very humbled speaking to both of you. Narcis, you mentioned that you're no longer an EU Superman. I think you are. And I think if Captain America has one star on his shield, think about how many EU men would have. I have to put my hands up and say I feel a little bit ashamed now because I wasn't even aware that it was Europe Day. And I come from what, historically, and I think is still the case, is the most pro-EU country within the EU. And I grew up in— so I'm from Ireland, and I grew up in a time when Ireland was changing a lot in terms of going from being a very poor country to a very wealthy country. A perfect transition, of course. But one of the things that I always noticed as a kid, and it is, I will defend this to the death, it is one of the reasons that the EU is so popular in Ireland, is that we had no infrastructure whatsoever, a holdover of centuries of colonialism. And every single highway, every single bridge that was built had a sign with, partly funded by this European Union project, and a big set of gold and blue stars on there. So I think people really associate it with positive change. And I don't know, it'll be funny to see if future generations have that association because that's still the case sometimes, but Ireland is better able to stand on its own two feet, thanks to all the foreign direct investment we get from other places as well. But yeah, I think that's something, you know, I can really see the impact that the EU has had on my life. Both in the sense that I now avail of freedom of movement, but also just the fact that it was completely transformative of the country I was in. And yet I have to hold my hands up here and say I don't typically celebrate Europe Day, but maybe this is the call to action, and I will from now on.

Narcis:

It's a bit sad because, actually, the European institutions and also the national institutions are kind of obliged to promote this day, especially since national institutions have signed a pledge saying that they will promote Europe Day and that they will allocate funding. And what they do to wash their hands is that they find a few couple of NGOs, they give them a sack of money to each of them, and say like, " Go do something to tell people it's Europe Day." And that's where their responsibility ends. Because they did— every single EU member state has taken the responsibility to promote Europe Day as one of our traditions, as one of our symbols that unites us as Europeans. But, yet a lot of the countries fail. I know that maybe some countries like Germany or France probably work a little bit harder for the local authorities to promote Europe Day, as far as I remember. But here in Denmark, it's a joke. It's like in Aalborg, for example, where I am, it's thanks to the youth organizations that something happens. The municipality doesn't do anything. I remember that many, many, many years ago, they would at least go and raise the flag on top of the municipality, and that's it. But that even stopped the moment we became very active in the last 10 years, and we would be bringing flags and do it. They stopped doing it themselves. And now, when we, you know, got older and stopped, your generation, maybe one year we didn't do anything, they didn't do it either because they got used to the idea that, oh, the NGOs will do it, why should we do it as well? So I just hope the institutions wake up and remember that it's not— NGOs are fine to support, and this is okay, but they need to remember that institutions have the first, like, the primary task that they need to remember to citizens that it's Europe Day and somehow market that. Because if they don't take it seriously, why would they expect the citizens to take it seriously? But anyway, that's a whole different conversation to be had. So I think we have a lot of other things that happened this week, Fionn.

Fionnuala Toole:

Absolutely. But I think maybe the idea of taking things seriously and people not taking it seriously when they've been told they need to is a very smooth segue into our first topic this week. And that is the new survey that suggests that most people in Denmark have not prepared enough or still aren't prepared to manage at home during a major crisis, even though the authorities have been recommending that every household should be able to cope for 3 days without immediate help. I think one of the key terms that we've heard with this is the term prepping, and I have to admit one of my guilty pleasures years ago was watching, you know, documentaries about these hardcore preppers who all prep for some kind of doomsday scenario. And while I don't think it is a doomsday scenario that is going to hit Denmark, I have seen the Pjarnar Nylgård, the head of secretariat of the Danish emergency services, was telling TV2 that it is no longer a question of if, but when a major crisis will hit Denmark. So I think this story is not necessarily about bunker building or, you know, creating an armed compound like some of the chaps I was watching on TV a few years ago, but Danish emergency authorities are asking households to have basic supplies, so drinking water, food, medicine, first aid, the list goes on. The recommendation is that this should be enough for 3 days, including 3 liters of water, a drinking water per person per day. Now, does this feel something that should be treated like home insurance or a smoke alarm? Do we need to normalize this as boring, normal, and practical? I feel like most people have a smoke alarm in their house, but most people I talk to don't have supply cash already. How do you guys feel about this? Are you prepped up? Have you built the compound or are you still putting it on the long finger, as the Danes say?

Narcis:

Serena, I'll let you try first.

Serena Leka:

I had a funny moment when I saw that in my ebox, on how to prepare for this moment of crisis. And with all the cyber attacks that are happening in the world, and also in the official systems and ecosystems that are run by the government. I for a moment doubted that this is true. I thought Evox was hacked, and this is a way to scare people in society. And that's what I told my husband, like, did you get the same email? Do you think it's true? Like, is it? Should we do something about this? Should we report it? And then talked, of course, to some friends and colleagues and people in the community. And of course it was for real. I have to admit, not much that I have done in regards to preparing for everything towards that list of what you need, but I have done a few things, at least changed in the way that we treat these household planning, like weekly food now, and a few cans stored. I don't have batteries. The only batteries that we have in stock are children's book batteries for music, so that's what we will listen.

Fionnuala Toole: It's very important.

Serena Leka:

If something happened, exactly, you need to entertain the kids. I think that's going to be another type of thing to take care of. But what's very curious about this is that Denmark it's a trust-based society and it's relying quite a bit on the Danish institutions. And sometimes you also let your guard down when you come here as an expat, especially if you come to countries that have been through war or communism like mine, Albania, and my husband's, Bosnia, you just want that peace of mind a little bit. And when you see that, you could also be a bit triggered, like, do I want to believe it, or what's going on? Um, and then definitely, this cyber warfare that is going everywhere should not be considered an IT concern anymore. It becomes a household concern, and it goes through so many layers. As you said, what if mobile pay doesn't work? What if your card doesn't work? So we're also stacking a little bit of cash, both Danish kroner and euros, on the side, just to have that. And this is how I feel for now. Oddly, I also think having a Danish dictionary would be relevant for all the expats at home, because then, I don't know, the news will be again through pen and paper distributed. Maybe I'm also going through these documentaries and movies from centuries ago, but you want to understand and be able to communicate with the community somehow. So that would be a little bit from my perspective.

Fionnuala Toole:

I think that's actually a really, really good point. And one thing, while I was looking through this, you know, we always think, how does this affect internationals, or why would this matter most for internationals? And that was actually the thing that kind of came to my mind, that maybe a lot of emergency broadcasts, for example, would not be exclusively through Danish. I think they're pretty good normally at having things in English as well. But, you know, we are more reliant on technological services for a lot of those. What I will say is now the kind of Danish website that has their kind of official preparedness advice, it is English. So if you're listening to this and thinking, well, I haven't done it because I didn't understand the letter that came through, through e-box, you can go to www.bjergsen.dk brs.dk/en, for English, /prepared, and you can get all the advice there. So that at least was soothing my soul, but of course, that is reliant on an internet connection, so it's maybe more for now than for when you're in the thick of it. What about you nurses? I mean, one thing I noticed is that the authorities are saying that they need to prioritize things like hospitals and care homes and vulnerable people, so does that make you kind of willing to prepare from a, you know, societal good perspective, or is it more just a personal idea?

Fionn:

Did you know that The Last Week in Denmark newsletter is available in 8 languages? Hey there, this is Fionn from The Last Week in Denmark podcast, and every week you guys are tuning in to hear me and my fellow co-hosts talk about the top news of the week in English. But let's be real, we're all internationals, so not only are you speaking English every day, but you're probably also speaking a bit of Danish. But you've probably also got your own native language as well, like the multilingual master you are. So why not treat yourself to the luxury of being able to read Danish news each week in your own native language? So head on over to lastweekdk.substack.com. That's lastweekdk.substack.com. And sign up for our newsletter delivered to you every single Sunday.


Narcis:

To be honest, in our case, it's more like how to be more self-sufficient as a household. Because we live on the village side, you can say, like 1 hour away from Aalborg. No, 30 minutes by car. We focus more on the fact that now we have 2 greenhouses, lots of tomato plants, cucumbers, chilies, and pepper fruit. I have a huge berry garden. I enjoy collecting berry plants from wherever, and I have a huge diversity of species in my garden, so my garden is full of bees and birds and butterflies and everything you can imagine. When you come, even the flowers I plant are comestible. I make sure that all the plants we plant are comestible so we actually can eat them. I did some foraging course, so I am aware of which plants that grow naturally in our grasslands, let's just say, can be eaten. And as you know, you have this golden flower that appears everywhere, and that actually used to be one of our main staples a couple of hundred years ago. It used to be planted by us, and that's how it became all over the world. It's actually comestible in every way, including the roots that you can make coffee out of if you don't like coffee beans and you want an alternative to it. So I would say I prepped more in having access to a fresh source of food and to knowledge, to understanding how to use the nature around to be able to survive in a way. My wife also focuses a little bit on making sure we have enough water. So that was her first priority, the moment the message came, to ensure that we had enough food. But to be honest, if you look into all of our counters, they're always full of food because we either get food from Poland from her side, or we either get food from Romania from my side. We either buy ourselves because I have a problem when I go shopping, I can't stop myself. I just buy random stuff that I see that looks interesting, but then I don't actually eat them. Yeah, that's not good. Don't do that.

Serena Leka:

I wonder why we're having the podcast from our own apartments. You know, we should all meet at Narcis' garden and also enjoy the birds. And that might be white noise for everybody listening to the to the podcast. But we have to remember, I don't know the statistics, but the majority of the expats do not have houses. They live in apartments. I have a feeling that the majority of the expats are living in apartments or at least smaller space areas. So what would you do for storage in that case? Now, when I think about, you know, preparing besides food, I love cooking from scratch, and I don't throw things out. So I don't buy everything that I that I look at— I'm jealous of your tomatoes because that's the only thing that I buy, tomato cans, because I think they're tastier than the real tomatoes in the supermarket. But I would say maybe it would be fun to treat these as home projects. Like, okay, if I need to store a lot of resources for this crisis, then maybe I can do a declutter of the apartment first. Maybe I can do some cleaning up and make some space for it so that if we are stuck here again, like in the COVID we have a livable environment. And you know what that means when you have small kids, that they want to jump and go through everything and everywhere. So, probably that storage element would be, would be really important to think of. I love communities. That would be my last thing to say here, and then you'll take it back, is to think about the society as a whole. So if I'm good at making food or inventing food out of 5 ingredients, then I know a friend, a good friend, who is very good at the electronic side. So there are a couple who bought the batteries, who bought the radios, who bought the flashlights, and everything. And if something happens, we would say, you know, would you want to come over, or should we go through this crisis together? I have this, you have that. Or I like to have a very good relation with the neighbors here in the building block, because my kids are going to be in the elevators. They'll say hi, they'll meet their kids, and it's nice to know what's going on. So have a good relationship, have an ongoing channel of communication. And just like in the old days, probably, Narsis, you from Romania and your wife from Poland know that we used to knock on a neighbor's door and say, " Sorry, I'm out of eggs, or I need a cup of yogurt because I'm making pancakes, would you be helping me? "— yeah, for that now. So that would be my approach. Loved your garden though.

Narcis:

You're always welcome.

Fionnuala Toole:

I think that's a really good way, maybe, to tie up this topic. And that is something that we haven't touched on or that this kind of prepping hasn't touched on so much. But it's also kind of a critical thing if something happens, obviously, people like us, we're relatively young in the grand scheme of things. In a geological sense, we're very young. But of course, we have neighbors, we have people who are maybe more vulnerable in our neighborhoods, and that is a really important part of any kind of, you know, prepare as a community. So as part of that plan, and that involves checking up on your neighbors, checking up on people who are maybe don't have an apartment, the huge lands that Narcis has to grow his own crops. I'm joking, I'm joking, I'm joking. But I think that kind of takes us towards our next topic, and that is, well, it's a I wouldn't necessarily say it's a crisis, but it is a conflict and disruption, and that is the Iran conflict and of course the disruption around the Straits of Hormuz. And Maersk, the Danish shipping giant, has come out and said that they are adding roughly 3 billion kroner a month in costs. And because those shipping costs feed into everything from groceries to electronics, part of that bill is ultimately likely to reach consumers. Just to give a bit of perspective. So Maersk today, they settled, or I think the last few days even, probably not today on a Saturday morning when we're recording, but they settled their financial books for the first 3 months of the year and they came out with a profit of $100 million or 635 million kronor, which you or I might think that's a lot of money, but it is a huge decrease compared to the same period last year where their profit was about 12 times higher. 

Narcis: 12 times higher

Fionnuala Toole: 

Yeah, if you've listened to me on this podcast, you know my heart is not necessarily sitting with the huge corporations and their profits, but it is the knock-on effect that this could have. So the costs are mainly due to higher fuel prices, but also, of course, insurance costs. And yeah, this ultimately kind of gets us to the point that when oil gets more expensive, it's not just affecting, you know, the petrol stations, but it's raising kind of the cost of almost everything around this. And I don't know, maybe Narses, how does this story make you think differently about, you know, how Denmark is vulnerable to crisis or conflicts outside of Europe?

Narcis:

I mean, you can really tie it up with the prepping because think about it, you can actually, you know, this is a diffused bomb. So the prices will increase. That's a fact. We know that because of the market laws, but we have some time. So basically, by the time you finish all that is already in stores before they bring in new, let's just say, products, then every new wave of products will raise the price a little bit. So you just have to say, okay, you kind of know it's, it's for the first time I ever see a predicted increase in prices with such clarity. So now, like, for example, construction materials, we were told that in the following 3 months, the construction materials will increase by 30%. That's a fact. So everyone went and prepped. So everyone was like, okay, now go buy, buy, buy, buy, buy. Just like they were saying, like my friends were saying, buy, buy, buy with their weapons and whatnot. The same thing happened. So now what? What actually happened is that the moment the stocks emptied, the demand decreased, which means that, actually, because everyone bought ahead, the demand decreased. And actually, the stores, even though they came with a new price that was higher, the demand pushed that price higher down. So in the end, it never happened. The so-called increase in prices of construction materials, it actually never happened. So what's going to happen now if people actually do this and buy a lot ahead? But that was a very specific example. Actually, this whole increase in prices could be dampened if, when the moment these new products arrive on the market, we stop buying so much. But yeah, let's see. Let's see how that goes. It's a bit harder to predict the whole sector of the economy. Construction materials were easy to predict. So, Serena, what do you think?

Serena Leka:

Yeah, when you started saying buy, buy, buy, all I could hear in my mind was the Backstreet Boys song. And with the puppets—

Fionnuala Toole:

Who brings them in to solve this?

Serena Leka:

But there is a puppeteer, I think, in the clip where, you know, you are commanded, and you're shown how to dance. Anyway, these fuel prices have gone crazy, right? Almost doubled in price from $600 to $1,000 per metric ton. Clearly, that will attribute, you know, all this raise of prices all over the place. And we also know that the Hormuz Strait has 20% of the global trade going through it. So it's quite a lot of the trade in itself in the world, not just for Europe, depending on that. And it makes me wonder when you also bring the statistics of the Maersk earnings for this quarter, of the power of Denmark in the shipping industry, and in the marine time arena, and their economic influence. So even though these crises are happening, somehow Denmark is yet positive in the books. That shows that even though we can get influenced by the oil, Denmark has a certain level of influence too, which hopefully these corporates are able to exercise and to push back. And be interesting to mention that sometimes, like you said, Narcis, we know the prices already. The behaviors of citizens change before the crisis even happens. And I recently learned from a dear friend, best friend that works at LEGO, the concept of the lipstick effect. So when you know that it's going to be a crisis and prices are going to rise and you need to be more careful of, you know, your family and your small community or whatever you want to call it, your space. Then, instead of buying luxury goods, you buy small things, small pleasures. And this was back in the days when everybody was buying lipstick, I think around 2001, in that area, the early 2000s. So it will be curious to see which other companies would be impacted by this, out of the shipping, oil, food, textile, and packaging, and so on. That is industry influence. So that, that's a curious phenomenon to observe. But it's worth to mention for the expats that a few supermarkets like Netto and Lidl, they have vowed to lower the prices on quite a few of the grocery items. So they're taking the other way and making some of these goods more accessible. Um, the last comment, what makes me wonder when I hear this and how globalization becomes global or very physical, where from, from where you are, and where you're positioned. Speaking about the gardens before, what Nasis was saying, we have become more and more aware of the concept of from farm to fork. Now we know more about where the food is coming from, the attributes, the farmer, all of that. Probably the same level of knowledge and awareness is going to be among citizens right now with regards to supply chain, which maybe is an area that we didn't spend much time on before to know, to understand, to figure out. So it would be worth at least the awareness and the knowledge that people will gain. Once you hear these conversations, once you hear how much interdependent we are in these supply chains, then what can you do about it? There's one thing that I pledged for this year. To impact this with oil, buy any plastic-based clothing. So, only natural fibers like cotton, cashmere, linen, and wool. And that's what, at least I'm doing. It's very expensive when you have a 9-week-old newborn that needs new clothing every other week. But at least we are secondhand finding clothes around and exchanging with friends, and so on. At least not to contribute to that area. That's why I'm talking quite a bit because you're lonely with a little baby at home. And when I get to meet people, it's so many topics you want to talk about. So this was very exciting for me.

Fionnuala Toole: We'll set up another off-air recording later on.

Narcis:

Would you guys say that actually this crisis might actually have a positive impact? Because I'm looking at how many people are switching to electric cars. Like, it's crazy. It has become a lot more expensive now to find a secondhand electric car. Than any other kind of secondhand cars, even though technically, secondhand electric cars are not the greatest choice to make. And yeah.

Fionnuala Toole:

Yeah. I think that's one of the interesting things, and we could probably spend an hour talking about this, but one thing is the actual consumer behavior that I think is very interesting. And the other is actually the attitudes from politicians, or you could say that the sensible parts of society around the green transition. Because I think for a long, long time there has been an attitude of, well, yes, it would be wonderful if everything was electrified and we didn't have to use oil and the birds and the bees all got better and the world was healed. But it's, as we would say in Ireland, that's just pie in the sky thinking, and you have to think about real practicalities, and you have to be responsible. And obviously, we are not at a stage where we can just switch off oil from the global economy overnight. Regardless of petrol, the products we use, oil goes into so many things. But I do think the conversation has shifted somewhat in terms of if we want to talk about energy security. Very much in the past, it has been, "Yeah, green sources are great, renewables are great, but you can't rely on them." Well, now I would say on the flip side, this is— I would say the second or third time in the past 5 years, if we also think about the Russian invasion of Ukraine as well and how that sent oil and gas prices spiking. And I think that is hopefully going to give a drive towards really investing in renewable sources of energy, which cannot replace everything necessarily. You can't put, you know, wind power in a petrol car overnight, but to actually shift that idea that, well, if we want to actually be responsible, if we want to have energy security, we do need to move away from these fossil fuels, especially ones that are tied in, you know, where somebody can plant some rockets on a shore or plant some ships and cut off 20% of the global supply. So I think that's what maybe gives me hope a little bit.

Serena Leka:

Fionn, you reminded me of an interesting statistic, which is called fuel poverty. I did my master's thesis related to that at Denfoss, and I haven't seen that index for a while. How would that— or how has that changed? Well, maybe I'll go back and have a look.

Fionnuala Toole:

That sounds like some good reading. We are getting to the time when we need to move on to our third and final topic of the week. And that is that there is a Danish member of the European Parliament who is pushing for the EU to ban loot boxes in games aimed at children after a Danish survey found that more than half of children aged 11 to 16 have bought them. And make them feel encouraged to buy them again. What loot boxes are, if you're not familiar with them, they are basically virtual packages in games where players pay without knowing exactly what reward they will get. Now, when I say pay, very often in these games you get some for free, uh, you maybe earn them through the game, but there's increasingly an option to buy a bunch of them as well, or buy in-game currency that you can use to get them. The randomness of them is kind of the central concern because it can make the purchase feel exciting. You're kind of rolling a dice, and you're hoping at getting something unique or good, whether that's a cosmetic upgrade for your character or a different weapon or something like that in a game. But basically, it is excitable, it's repeatable, and it's very gambling-like, especially for children. Um, so these are having influences on kids' lives outside of just the games. And I think one of the big worries, uh, for both UNICEF Denmark and the Center for Digital Pädagogik is basically the impact on children's lives throughout gaming, but also influencer advertising and online communities as well. So the problem is not that kids are gaming, it's the problem that games are starting to borrow the psychology of gambling. Obviously, not all games, not all kids are affected by this, but to me lately, I feel like everything is gambling. There seems to be this, uh, element in more and more, uh, more and more things. And I was really surprised by the numbers, actually, of kids who have actually bought loot boxes in digital games. I was really shocked by that. I don't know, was this something that came across either of your raters? I think we all have kids on this call. Mine are probably a little bit too young for this, thankfully, but, uh, same here.

Serena Leka:

Yeah, same for me. I must admit I had to Google what a loot box is when we were setting out the topics for today. Um, the first question that came to mind about this gambling effect that these types of games are bringing towards kids is, are parents aware that their kids are playing, right? Because they have to borrow a credit card somewhere or use some digital cash somehow. Then I wondered, would parents be able to do the same? Would the parent give the kid 100 kronor in their hand and know that there is a physical space, a room, a shop where you can go and play? Would the parent allow that? It's the same context, it's the same game, you're still, you know, expecting some reward, but if it were physical, would the parent accept it? Would it be okay? "Oh, but it's easier, it's digital because the kid is at home on the couch, I can see them." So I think there is a distance, there's a gap between how harm appears when it's physical and where it's digital. That was my first intuition about this gambling.

Fionnuala Toole:

Yeah, I think it's, it's a really interesting point because obviously things like arcades do exist. There may be less prevalence than they were, you know, 20, 30 years ago, but it is a different experience. And I think you hit the nail on the head. I think it is a knowledge gap or an understanding gap in many, many parents of actually understanding what this is. I think there is, you know, you mentioned parents' credit cards, uh, in some cases I'm sure that is the case, but it is quite easy to, you know, if even if you go to your local Netto or Superboesen, they often sell prepaid cards for a PlayStation Store, for Google Play, so kids can basically convert physical cash into currency with that. But I do think there is a lack of understanding, not just to say, you know, all games are bad, or blame the parents. Those are two very tired tropes, I think. But I do wonder, maybe Serena, as somebody who is interested in AI and innovation and responsible technology, where do you think the line should be, maybe between clever product design and manipulation? Like, surely there is a space that this is kind of sitting somewhere between those.

Serena Leka:

Yes. When it comes to the game designers and the companies, for them it's exciting, it's innovation, it's feeding off certain behaviors, it's making sure that you capture the attention of the kids and everybody who plays, but in this case teenagers, as well as possible or as much as possible. Now, with the AI coming into play in this context, I see a potential for it to intensify the time that the kids spend, the affection that they have, how much they put into it, all the energy, all the everything else that comes with it, with gaming and playing. That would be mostly through personalization that the AI can do, so that they would be able to capture the attention because they know what you want and what you need. Also, I assume some of these spaces, they work in, I'm gonna call it communities, but more probably it's a friendship space. So, a few kids play together, and then that there is a network effect where even if it's not in the game, your classmate, your friend, your cousin, whoever you're playing with might push you to stay longer. So it creates sort of a trap for you to maximize your spending behavior in the, in the platform. I haven't been teaching this target group. My students have always been master's or PhDs. But when it comes to gamification in that sense, there's always a debate about the impact that it has on learning. So, in the taxonomy of the gamers, can we find out what this would make for the kids in their future in terms of learning, consuming knowledge, understanding societies, and being very functional? So that's also something that I'm wondering. Now, with this parenting gig that we have for 18 years to come, with a toddler and a newborn, a lot of parenting books we have been going through, and there's one that I really enjoy, which is called "Hold on to Your Kids." I don't remember; there are two authors now, but they are very popular in this trauma space. But they have a very curious concept of building relationships with your kids before you educate, before you discipline, before you tell them to do something. So, probably instead of the blame game, you know, who has to be responsible for this— a parent, institutions, schools, and so on— maybe let's just try to have a relation and understand where these kids' needs come from to be in these games and to spend and to want to have rewards digitally before we take some measures that could also be counterproductive. Later on.

Fionnuala Toole:

Absolutely. I think we are getting very close to the time we need to be wrapping up, but maybe Narcis, I can give you the last word on this.

Narcis:

No, I just wanted to say that maybe it's a question of equality. You know, some kids are very skilled, and they get those loot boxes by their own skill, but then other kids are not so skilled, and they start crying to their parents that they will never win this game, they will never get that loot box. And they ask, " Can I buy that loot box? And that makes them happy that now they are finally on the same line. So when they go to school, they can discuss, oh, I also have a loot box. Look what I got. Look what I got. So it's a way to bring, you know, the unskilled kids to be on the same level with skilled kids. So the unskilled kids use the power of money to be on the same level as the other ones. If we ban loot boxes, doesn't that mean that we make a meritocracy kind of society where we only support the best ones, and we leave the bad ones behind?

Serena Leka:

Yeah, but you're right. I, I think all three topics today were a conversation between dependency and resilience. You're dependent on the Danish government, but then you need to be prepared to show resilience if some crisis happens. You're dependent on oil everywhere in the world, but you need to build local resources in the country and find new partnerships to get access to whatever you need. And now you have dependency on gaming, but for some, it's also resilience because they are good players and they achieve it themselves, whereas others need the cash. So it's a It's totally fair, Narcis.

Fionnuala Toole:

I think that's a better, better outro than I could possibly have come up with. So I think that's probably where we need to wrap it up for this week. Narcis and Serena, thank you so much for chatting with us. I think it's really been a great episode, and I certainly feel smarter. I think especially after that last discussion. Serena, is there anything you would like to plug or where people can follow you online?

Serena Leka:

Yes, definitely in the different social media, LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook is for the Albanian because that's where we did all of the protests and the events, and different activities. But yeah, feel free to reach out. I really like to support women, women in tech, women in deep tech, and those wanting to start companies. So that would be my primary focus. So if you have an idea, then better send your wives to lobby on your behalf, and then we'll, we'll see where we can meet. But thank you, guys, for today. It was lovely to do this, and it's great work you're doing. And as somebody who's doing the citizenship test in a month, I think I'm going to listen to all of your podcasts as part of the daily activities to see what do I need to know and how many of the test exams come— questions come from your podcast as well.

Fionnuala Toole:

So there'll be a question about loot boxes, and you would be like, "Yes, finally".

Narcis: 

I'll be shocked if that happens, but I would as well.

Fionnuala Toole:

You never know. You never know. Maybe Danish MEP will cause enough of a stir. But look, thank you so much, guys. Thank you also to our whole behind-the-scenes podcast crew, our editors, and our transcriptors. They're the ones that really make this happen. And of course, thank you to you, the listener. That's all from us this week, but we will be back again next week with episode 18. Have a wonderful week ahead.



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LWID

Host
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Fionn O'Toole

Guest
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Narcis George Matache

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Serena Leka

Guest