Last Week in Denmark

Denmark’s Government Gamble, Greenland Pressure & International Talent Waste: LWID S5E19

• Season 5 • Episode 19

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Danish power, Greenland tensions & wasted talent in Denmark: Fionn and Narcis discuss Denmark’s stalled government talks, the larger US consulate in Nuuk, and why highly educated internationals, including Ukrainians, are still pushed into low-skilled work despite Denmark’s labour shortages. 

Topics: 

(01:48) Danish earth quake

(09:51) Government Talks 

(18:44) Greenland Pressure 

(29:02) International Skilled Workers in Denmark

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Fionn

Hello, and welcome to The Last Week in Denmark podcast. Each week, we talk through some of the top stories that happened last week in Denmark. We love to focus on how they impact internationals living here especially. So, if that sounds like you, then you are in the right place, and we're so glad to have you. Maybe you're a first-time listener, and if you are, you should know that we have four full seasons ready for you to explore and new episodes coming out every single week. My name is Fionn O'Toole, and joining me this week for episode 19 of season five is Last Week in Denmark founder, Narcis George Matake. How are you, Narcis?


Narcis

Hello, everyone. Did you miss me? [Laughs]


Fionn 

Well, that… that's that's ominous. [Laughs] This week, we're gonna be exploring three different topics. We'll be looking at the latest twists and turns on the government negotiations that are still going on. We'll be looking at the evolving Europe and US relationship, and maybe, especially, the new US consulate opening in Greenland. And we'll be looking at how many international workers are trapped in low-skilled jobs despite having years of education, experience and high qualifications. Before we get going, we'd love to ask just one thing. If you enjoy this episode, please leave a review, share the podcast, leave a comment on Spotify, give it to somebody you know. We're here to help internationals in Denmark stay informed and feel connected, so thank you so much for helping us reach more people who are just like you.


Narcis

But Fionn, do you really think these three topics are the most important of what happened this week? I have a feeling that there was something bigger, right? Something, at least for you guys, you know, the ones in the capital. I know we have not heard anything about it up here in the north, but I heard that you suffered a little bit? What was that about?


Fionn

We… we suffered like no one has ever suffered. We were struck by an earthquake.


Narcis

You were struck! [Laughs]


Fionn

It struck, like Thor beating his mighty hammer, an earthquake struck Copenhagen. Some would say it is the, the gods showing their displeasure that the government has not formed yet. But yeah, it's true. A, a very small earthquake struck Copenhagen. I'm still sticking with struck. It, it struck Copenhagen on Wednesday afternoon. I have to admit, I didn't notice it at first because I think I was on a bike, and there's enough potholes that you couldn't tell the difference if the ground was shaking or not. So the first thing I saw about it was a text in my, kind of, family-in-law group chat, and I read it and, you know, learned some new Danish words, which I figured out meant “earthquake.” Obviously the reports were that there was no damage, and there was all the, kind of, memes going around of a garden chair that had fallen over. And I enjoyed all of those, only to later discover that I, singularly, am the, as far as I'm aware, the only victim of this earthquake. Yeah. I, uh, yeah, picked up my kids, came home, cooked dinner. We put the kids to bed, and we were washing up later, and I heard a very panicked call from my fiancée. And when I came down, she had our kitchen cabinet open underneath the sink, and the drain that connects to the, the kitchen sink had been shaken loose, so the connection had come loose. Maybe, like, who knows, maybe it was a Christmas nisse who's come too early, but our, our working theory is that it was this earthquake, you know, gently shook something loose that maybe hadn't been installed properly. So all the pasta water we had thrown out earlier had gone down and gotten under our floor. So we have, like, an old wooden floor with a new kind of click floor on top of it. And we had to spend until about half-past midnight in the… down on hands and knees, lifting up pieces of this click floor to figure out what bits had gotten wet, and dry them off and… Yeah, then put everything back together again. So…


Narcis

Damn.


Fionn

Some people, some people would say I'm a hero for, for that. I think, you know, that's, that, that's fair.


Narcis

Some people would say! [Laughs]


Fionn

Yeah, I, I would agree. A hero is probably right. But yeah, that's, that's it. So, you know, people will joke about the, the great Copenhagen earthquake, but remember there was, there was a real human cost to it as well.


Narcis

Yes, it was… I mean, how many hours you said you were on your knees and…?


Fionn

I mean, I think about four hours pulling stuff up and…


Narcis

Four hours! Is this your first time sitting for hours on your knees?


Fionn

No. No, no. I, I could definitely be accused by anyone who's ever worked in manual labor of having soft hands, but I… I started my career in a shoe shop, so I've been down on my knees many times fitting, fitting shoes to little old ladies. It's a different kind of labour. 


Narcis

Little old ladies?


Fionn

Yeah, well, I worked for ECCO, the Danish footwear brand, which is, doesn't have the most youthful clientele most of the time.


Narcis

Okay, I didn't know that.


Fionn

So, when I was, when I was 16, yeah, that's, that's the start of how I ended up in Denmark, basically.


Narcis

ECCO brought you to Denmark?


Fionn

I… my first job, my first summer job was in an ECCO shop in Dublin, and I was 16. I had no experience. I handed out about 300 of the worst possible resumé you've ever seen. It was about four pages long, which is impressive for someone with no experience whatsoever. And yeah, the only place that hired me was an ECCO shoe shop, and I later found out-  I thought I interviewed really well. I later found out that it was because I was tall, and a tall guy had left recently, and they needed somebody to reach the top shelves. So that was, that was how I got my in. And yeah, I ended up working there for about seven years in Ireland while I was in university, and then the financial crisis happened, so I was a trained archeologist with a job in a shoe shop, so I was the most successful archeologist of my generation at that point, cause no one else had a job. Then ended up through, one way or another, entering the, the corporate side of ECCO and eventually ended up here in Denmark. So that's, that's the life, life story.


Narcis

Seriously?


Fionn

Yeah.


Narcis

You, you went from, from fitting shoes to a corporate job within the same company?


Fionn

Yeah, I went from… they had, like, a graduate program. The- this is, if you're international listening to this and want to apply to ECCO's graduate program, here's the inside scoop. No, I applied for this graduate program, and I ended up getting hired into a job instead. So I moved from working on a shop floor. At that point, I was a store manager. I was managing a few stores, but I worked from the shop floor in Ireland to a corporate office in Switzerland in a business unit for ECCO. I spent five years in Switzerland, met my fiancée, who's Danish, and then when we had our, our son, we moved to Denmark. And so my first experience of actually living in Denmark was in… living near ECCO's corporate headquarters in Tønder, which is right on the German border. So I had a year in Sønderjylland, which you know, is, is always like a horror story for my Copenhagen colleagues now, who are, are shocked that anybody would, would live there. But it was a lovely place.


Narcis

There's more to Denmark than Copenhagen, right?


Fionn

Absolutely there is! Absolutely.


Narcis

I’m surprised to, to hear that. I mean, you, you really had quite of a journey. I mean, it's, it's impressive that you, you can, you were able to do that because, actually, one of our topics today, right, is about internationals who are trapped in low-skill jobs, and how many internationals leave when they're like 16, 17 as well. They try to get a job probably, you know, if not fitting shoes, but you know, serving or cleaning and so on. Um, and then what happens later on is that they just stay there. They stay in those, in those jobs even later when they are 30, 40. But not you. So I'm just curious, how does someone, or what did ECCO Dublin provide to allow someone who starts as a shoe fitter to take over a couple stores? I mean that’s, that’s… that’s Roman empire-style.


Fionn

Eventually, yeah? I mean… [Laughs] Well, that's where the archeology came in, right? Studying, studying the campaigns of Trajan was... Yeah, no. Yeah, I mean, this is a bit of a tangent, right? But I think I just got a bit lucky with timing and, of course, put in hard work and everything. But I'd been there for a few years, and eventually they were opening up a, a pop-up store, and they were looking for somebody to, to manage it. So I applied and, and I got that position, and the idea was after six weeks or whenever it would close, that I'd just go back to the stores. But somebody else retired in, in the meantime, so then I got in there, and we kind of opened up some shop-in-shops around the same time, so I kind of had those as well. And then yeah, somebody else was moving on, and so I got a bigger store and then a bigger store. This was all in the space of about nine months or 18 months, so it, it all went very quickly.


Narcis

Jesus.


Fionn

So yeah, it's not very helpful advice, but it was a case of hard work and putting myself forward, I think, and volunteering for things, and then circumstances also maybe playing in my favour a bit to, to get there. And then taking, also taking a chance, right, to apply for that, that program, and that did also mean, you know, leaving, leaving life behind in, in Ireland. But I haven't looked back since, right? So I'm, I'm an international here. I'm happy to be, and that's, that's how life goes.


Narcis

I learned so much about you in this, in this episode I didn't know at all. We do this, this podcast for so long now, but I have... We never, at least you never had a, at least I never heard your story before. I don't know. Is this the first time you, you mentioned your story on, on, on air?


Fionn

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I'm sure I've alluded to working for a big Danish corporate before or something like that, but yeah, that's… that's the, the secret history of Fionn O'Toole right there.


Narcis

[Music Begins] Secret history of Fionn. Okay, Fionn, what do you think? What's your betting? What's gonna be our new government? 


Fionn

Did you know that the Last Week in Denmark newsletter is available in eight languages? Hey there, this is Fionn from the Last Week in Denmark podcast, and every week you guys are tuning in to hear me and my fellow cohosts talk about the top news of the week in English. But let's be real. We're all internationals, so not only are you speaking English every day, you're probably also speaking a bit of Danish. But you've probably also got your own native language as well, like the multilingual master you are. So why not treat yourself to the luxury of being able to read Danish news each week in your own native language? So head on over to lastweekdk.substack.com. That's lastweekdk.substack.com, and sign up for our newsletter delivered to you every single Sunday.


[Music Ends]


Fionn

Oof. I think that's a great question, and I think we're probably have, you know, spent, what is it, two months? To get back to kind of square one, with the, the first option that seemed likely, which is a, I guess, center-left government supported by the moderates, either in government or, or supporting government. And, I mean, it does just seem, you know, Frederiksen kind of got the first attempt at, at the talks. Weeks of talks happen, the baton passes to Troels Lund Poulsen. Nothing really likely seems to have come out of that. I mean, the, the kind of situation that has been put forward by the, the blue block would be, I believe Venstre, Liberal Alliance and Conservatives, but then also supported by Moderaterne, but also Danmarksdemokraterne and Dansk Folkeparti, which is kind of the, the opposite, right? Of what Moderaterne ever wanted. And for those who aren't so tuned into Danish politics, well, the, the moderates are the moderates, and their kind of stated goal-


Narcis

Liberals.


Fionn

Yeah, is to avoid the, the extremes, if Denmark has extremes, on the wings of, of politics. So having, what many people consider, far-right parties in that same supporting agreement, and therefore, you know, the, the government having to adopt some of those policies or policies that would be appealing to them to get the support, it just doesn't seem likely. So… yeah.


Narcis

It was, it was a crazy idea to begin with. I mean, out of a sudden, Troels Lund comes up with this fancy project. "Oh, let me put together Venstre," which is a liberal party, Liberal Alliance, which is like a libertarian conservative. They don't know themselves what they are. And you have also Konservative, which is very much a social democrat conservative party…


Fionn

Mm-hmm.


Narcis

If you were to be honestly looking at their politics. But sometimes they get pulled towards the right more by their colleagues, not because they believe it, but simply because they are in a blue block, and they feel solidarity with the rest. But [laughs] to be honest, if Konservative will be led to believe in what they really want to believe in, they will be very much of a green party. Actually, this, the only green party on the [laughs] right side of politics.


Fionn

Just say, I mean, that is something that really surprised me as I learned more about Danish politics, was that the conservatives have such a green focus. And I'm sure there's people listening who really consider themselves much further on the left, maybe, who are saying, "no, they're not. They're not a real green party." But compared to a typical conservative party, and I think particularly if you compare it to major conservative parties in Europe, they very, very much are. I mean, what do you think with all this? Like, has Lars Løkke Rasmussen do you think he's kind of played a responsible role of a kingmaker in this? Or… I've kind of got the feeling that it's been about stroking his ego sometimes. What do you think on that?


Narcis

I mean, that's what everyone keeps saying, but to be honest, it's not about that. He really, really wanted to put together the main parties from both red side and blue side. He managed last time, right? So, so he-


Fionn

Hmm.


Narcis

Got this idea that, “okay maybe it's possible.” But he wanted this time that the responsibility is shared with other parties from the blue and red side so that, that it's stronger, the-


Fionn

Hmm.


Narcis

Next government. Because this government, for the bad or for the good, has delivered, has kept Denmark running in times of crisis, just like… We keep getting surprised by how well Denmark is governed lately. In, in the last- I mean, if you look at all the crisis in the last five, six years that we had, including the pandemic, Denmark always, somehow, got the right person at the right crisis time. Like the crisis with Greenland, having Lars Løkke there was perfect, right? The crisis pandemic, having Mette Frederiksen there was perfect. There are many, somehow, I don't know, either we get lucky or something, but we keep getting the right government in the right time. So, somehow, what he wanted to do is that, okay, there are some big decisions to be taken, some unpopular decisions again, and he wanted that all parties bear the responsibility because it will be easy. Look how much support the parties who are in government lost. Social Democrats got a huge hit; the worst elections  in history.


Fionn

Yeah.


Narcis

Venstre, Venstre is barely surviving to exist. Moderaterne, Moderaterne took a small hit because, to be honest, they were a new party, and they didn't have to lose as much. But the big parties took a big hit and, and what happened, the, the second, let's say, the lieutenant parties in both blue and red side, they got to win. Now the Liberal Alliance became very big. Socialist Party, SF, so-called the green left, they also got big because they took all the voters that left from the main parties, from the, let's just call them motherloads. So, I mean, what he wanted to do was, okay, we're gonna come up with, again, most likely some unpopular decisions. We're talking about the period of 2026-2030? We know all that many people point towards quite of a big war time, 2029, 2030. So he wanted to have some powerful union government that is able to take some big decisions, or borrowing money, or increasing taxes, or drafting more people into the army without their consent. There are some situations where simply, simply unpopular decisions again will have to be taken. So he hoped, at least he hoped that he will be able to bring these parties and share the responsibilities. But unfortunately, the others also realised, you know, they're not stupid, so they were like, "okay, if we go into this government, someone…”. Cause what, what happens is like this. They have two choices. If you're in power, fine. But if you're in power, and you're gonna take a hit anyway, you might as well be in power.


Fionn

Yeah.


Narcis

So that's what the blue parties fought, you know? Said, "okay, I know some tough times are coming. Fine. But we are in power, so at least we can say we have tried our best," and maybe it gets, they get lucky, and actually there are some positive results out of it, right? But at the same time, they, they were a bit stupid because why would you force Moderaterne, which is your kingmaker party, to not be part of the, of the government itself when they stated that that's very important to them? And then, that, that was strange. To be honest, the whole thing was strange. I don't... I think they are trying, each party now, is trying to somehow get some sort of support from the population, be like, "yeah, this is the right approach. This is the right way." But the moment he announced this government idea, journalists went on the street and asked the people, "okay, so what do you think about this idea?" And people was like, "yeah, that's... this a joke.”


Fionn

Mm-hmm.


Narcis

“He's making fun of us." I mean, how can you come up with a, with a government that has 44 seats in the, in the parliament? That’s a weak, not… what, weak? It's, it's, it's it's a… it's a hostage government. They cannot pass anything without selling stuff every single time. That’s not, that's not a stable government, especially in times of crisis. You cannot govern Denmark.


Fionn

And I think that's maybe something that a lot of people who maybe aren't as familiar with the way Danish politics works. In many parliaments, you have to have an actual majority, like a positive majority. But in the Danish Folketing, you basically only have to have a majority that does not oppose you. So you can have a minority government as long as you can kind of count on a confidence and supply, maybe with a couple of other parties, or you can count on them not to, to oppose you in ways that would bring down the government. But that's exactly it, and I think you raise a really good point about the kind of international situation because, and actually you, you mentioned Moderaterne taking a bit of a hit, but not so much. And one thing I thought was really interesting was, very early in the year, there were polls that were saying that Moderaterne would get wiped out. And then Lars Løkke essentially got a great gift when the Greenland story came back, and he seemed to handle it very, very well, or I think people were very impressed with how he handled the negotiations, how he handled himself and Denmark. And I think that's often one of the, the interesting things about politics, right? We can have politicians who we maybe don't agree with domestically, or we're not a huge fan of all of their policies and things like that, but you can actually be, like, quite happy they're in your corner on the world stage. That could be, you know, Lars Løkke with his pipe going to, to meet the Americans, or it could be, I don't know, some guy you think is a, a bit of a crook, but suddenly he's appointed the trade commissioner, and you're like, "well, he'll be, he'll be our crook." I don't know. [Laughs] That's, that's just the way I think about it sometimes. But I think that does quite neatly actually bring us towards the, the second topic that we're talking about, which is, basically some analysis that's been, been done by DR, by a number of different media organisations, which is looking basically at a, a shift in European attitudes towards the United States. And you can really see that there is… Donald Trump, you know, still very much everywhere in the media, still very much grabbing the attention. But underlying that is a visible shift in trade and defense, and I think foreign policy as well, as the EU is kind of having a growing push to reduce dependence on, on Washington. And maybe a flashpoint, if you want to call it that, was the opening of a larger consulate, a US consulate in, in Nuuk, which, you know, Trump has this special envoy, Jeff Landry, special envoy to Greenland, who said it was time for the US to put its footprint back on Greenland. And I have to admit, when I read that, I read it as that it's time for the US to put its foot on the back of Greenland. And [laughs] I wouldn't be surprised if many people did as well, given the, the attitudes. But, you know, normally a consulate opening, no one bats an eyelid. That's not a story. And yet there were protesters outside, hundreds of protesters outside, and Greenlandic leaders, many of them actually not attending, I think, including the, the prime minister of, of Greenland not attending. So, that maybe gives a bit of a… yeah… a temperature check of the relationship at the moment between consulates.


Narcis

This is a bit strange. Now imagine you are in Second World War, right? And then you're at war with Nazi Germany, right? And then all of a sudden, Nazi Germany opens a consulate in your capital and be like, "we're here to make friends." [Laughs] “We're here to develop economic relations and political connections and to empower the culture of this great, great country as part of the, our empire, of course. But this great, great state, future state of our empire,” and so on, right? It's, it's, it's… I understand why the Greenlandic people will, will act like that. I mean, I mean, Jesus Christ, you what, not even two, three months ago, you say, "I'm gonna come over you. I'm gonna use force, and you're gonna be part of America if you want or not!" And then all of a sudden, "you know what? We don't want to take you by force. We will do it nicely. We will pay everyone to join America!" [Laughs] So how do we do it? Let's make a three thousand square meter consulate in a, in a country that doesn't have... I think even if you go to their top building, let's just say, I don't know where they govern, the, the, the, the parliament of Greenland, I don't think it's that big as the…


Fionn

Mm-hmm.


Narcis

New consulate. The new American consulate. Do you understand? They, they made the biggest building possible in a small city like Nuuk to show the power and the grandeur of America, to show them, "look, you're joining something bigger, something bigger than yourself." And, and yes, maybe Trump knows that, for him, is important about speed. He doesn't have a lot to live, not many years. I bet he will not catch 2030 for sure. So that means that this sort of... You know, in, in older, in olden times, you would try to incorporate regions on the, on the side, like, from Roman Empire, right? They not always-


Fionn

Mm-hmm.


Narcis

Will conquer regions by force, but sometimes they'll just open these consulates in, in some regions to pacify the barbarians and bring them in into it. So his hope is that he will use the consulate to kind of project American influence, to project American grand, greatness, right? And to get people to understand why it will be a great idea to join US, because now it's all about, “the Greenlandic people will decide. It's only up to the Greenlandic people,” you know? That's, that's, that's the new rhetoric that comes from the US side. Which is fine. Thank God that they at least given up on the stupid idea of having a war with European Union. Uh, because that's what will have happened if they attacked Greenland, let's be honest. Um, but the point is they did not give up on Greenland, for sure.


Fionn

Yeah.


Narcis

And what they will try now really, really hard to use cultural, economical influence to try to get as many people locally as possible to, to join in. Are they smart in the way they do it? Hard to believe. To be honest, they wanna do something in four years that naturally takes decades. It'll take at least fifty years before Greenland… new generations have grown up with this trend of American exceptionalism, and then they will be the ones to vote a certain referendum to join in. It's possible. It's demonstrated by history that you can grab a region-


Fionn

Mm-hmm.


Narcis

By, by focusing on it, right? It's possible, but not in four years. And I think that's where Trump is gonna lose his patience, and he's gonna do again something along the way. What? I don't know. I don't know.


Fionn

I mean, so we're talking about this in the wider context of Europe and shifting away from dependency on the US, and I think part of that is people seeing, suddenly, the US, and of course, we're not just talking about the US people, but the US, the government, right? As an unreliable partner. One that, you know, is, has over this year been threatening force against its supposed allies. Do you think Trump is the pure cause of this shift, or is he kind of exposing a relationship that was already changing? I think that's something that I've been wondering about more and more, maybe, with the, the vulnerabilities in things like cybersecurity, and we've seen how attacks can really grind countries to a halt. Do you think, maybe, this almost self-dependence or a different form of nationalism in, in that sense that, you know, we have to be able to look after ourselves was coming anyway, or do you think this is really Trump just putting the accelerator on in a different way?


Narcis

Greenland is an old dream of US. Trump just picked it up because he's not the first one to say, "I want Greenland." It, it was a long, long, long time an objective of the US to have Greenland, especially during the, like, when they were trying to say that, "okay, Americas from top to bottom is all us influence," right? And he's trying to bring back that, that, that doctrine that America has its own part of the world where they dominated, just like in the old times where these large powers would just share the world between themselves. “This is my territory. This is your territory."


Fionn

Exactly. Yeah.


Narcis

They’re trying to bring back that kind of thinking where, "this is our space. We don't... Nobody touch us." But at the same time, you show your weakness because right now what's happening in Iran, it shows that the great, great, grand American army has limitations.


Fionn

Hmm.


Narcis

It was supposed to be able to pulverise any enemy out of the water. It seems it doesn't, and then he starts bitching about Europe that, "why don't you come and help us?" But I mean, dude, you have the greatest army in the world. Where is it? What's happening? Why are you getting beaten by Iranian army? For real? I don’t think it’s even top ten in the, in the world. I mean, God forbid, imagine a Ukraine versus US war. They will get killed.


Fionn

Well, this has actually been really interesting, some of the NATO war games and simulations. Now, I know the US has pulled out of some of those, but in the ones that have been held with NATO armies, which are kind of conventionally set up in normally the same way, the Ukrainians have been completely decimating them. So I think that's definitely another topic, right? But the, the nature of warfare is also very much changing as it becomes more, well, not mechanised. Warfare's been mechanised for a long time, but, uh, roboticized, if you wanna call it that. So I think there, there's definitely gonna be a lot of changes happening, and the implications of those will, will be very serious, I think, for the, the security of Europe and what the Western alliance or, or transatlantic alliance and relationship looks like in, in the coming years.


Narcis

I mean, for me, the, the, the strangest thing was to see this, last week, how both first Trump and then Putin went to China…


Fionn

Mm-hmm.


Narcis

With their hands and be like, "please, please protect us." [Laughs] Guess what happened? I mean, in the end, the nature of war changed, but also has shown that US has become a toothless tiger. Uh, they are no longer able to exercise influence on the world stage. They have lost a lot of their respect. And to be honest, even if they will have not played around and made these stupid mistakes lately, they could have exercised influence for a lot longer before their weaknesses will have been exposed. But they have chosen to play tough in a changing world, and now they end up going to, to China, both US and Russia. They both did the same stupid thing. They decided to show and try to live by the old world rules. They both got kicked, and now look at it. Ukraine is no longer just defending itself, but attacking Moscow.


Fionn

Hmm.


Narcis

Quite often. So now the Russians have seen the, how it is to be on the other side of the war, and now both of them are begging China for help. It's quite funny to see. So imagine in the old times when various lords would go to the Ottoman empire, and they would called the gates of Europe, and they're asking them for permission to do one thing or another. It's the same thing now. US goes to, to China, "please help us with Iran." Russia goes to China, "please help us out with Ukraine." And China is like, "oh! Oh, is it us who has all the power now?" [Laughs] It's…


Fionn

No it's… I think this is something we're gonna see over the, the coming years is a huge shift, right, in, in dynamics and maybe China taking a more active… Obviously China is a huge power, but a more active power on an international stage as well, because typically China is, has been more domestically focused. But let's see, let's see how that shifts. Now, with that said, we, we have been talking very much about the, the world stage over the last few minutes. We're gonna bring it kind of back home, and I think very much back home to this podcast because we are talking about international workers in, in Denmark, and increasingly we're seeing reporting and, and statistics on both that Denmark says it needs international talent and the huge amount of contributions to the economy that international talent is, is bringing Denmark. But also that many, many highly-educated internationals are still ending up unemployed, underemployed, or just working in low-skill jobs that don't match their education or their experience. There's been some really interesting articles about this both in things like Dansk Industri, so more industry publications, but also in publications like The International. And, actually, I think someone who's been a guest on this podcast, Kelly Draper Rasmussen, has had some really interesting research also into this topic. And looking at the way, basically, Denmark is constantly saying it needs skilled international labor, and yet it fails to adequately employ so much of that. And, and firms are saying they lack qualified workers, but they seem to be ignoring a huge pool of talent as well. Narcis, I'm sure as the editor of Last Week in Denmark, a publication dedicated to internationals in Denmark, you have some opinions on this.


Narcis

Yeah, I mean, for me, it's a… it scares me a little bit what happens now with the Ukrainian population in Denmark because the large majority of them came as refugees four years ago, and many of them did not come with a plan, did not come with an idea of, "okay, I will do this when I arrive," or "I have a lined up job to put that within this field, and the reason why I come here," or, "I have an education I'm coming for," and so on. You know, the usual “how we came,” right? We didn't come with, just randomly. We had a plan, an idea, so that gave us an edge, to be honest in here, an advantage. But they did not have that situation, so we're talking about, right now, the third largest minority in Denmark after Romanians and Polish. And they are in a terrible situation because we're talking about the fact that you have very highly-skilled people, especially healthcare, former healthcare staff from Ukraine that works in cleaning in Denmark, and that horrifies me. I mean, you work 13 years on an ambulance, emergency doctor, and they will not be able to, to, to recognise your, your skills here to allow you to actually work somewhere where we lack people, for God's sake. We go to Italy, and we're looking for, for, for people to work, and we pay companies... What is it? I think they were paying 80,000 kroner to recruit a healthcare personnel in Italy, to the recruitment company.  So, and it's ridiculous when you have... If you look, I mean, I met many of the Ukrainians because I was running this entrepreneurship course cause I still believe that it's easier to start a company in Denmark than to find a job for us as internationals. But I met many of the Ukrainians, and to be honest, the ones who got all the way to Denmark. You have to understand, it's usually... I'm not saying that others who chose other countries are different, but the, usually the internationals who get to Denmark, who reach here, tend to be a bit more highly-skilled and highly-educated than the mass. Because the mass of Ukrainians stayed in Poland. Why? Language is similar. It's nearby. It's closer. It's easier. But the ones who wanted more, they went a bit further, right? And usually those people were the more qualified people that arrived to Denmark. And, and unfortunately, they ended up in low-skill jobs, and four years later they're starting to doubt themselves. Imagine working on an ambulance for 13 years, right? Saving people's lives, and then you just clean for four years. What happens to your mental state? What happens to you as a person? Who are you, moving forward? And why is the government not understanding or not able to support these people to be able to work in the fields they are meant to work in? Right? I mean, why in the hell would you waste a, a very good nurse training from Ukraine when you have... And, and, and let them work in, in, I don't know, shelving, stocks when there's many other people who would love to have those jobs. There's other people who need those jobs who don't have other options, and instead you let very qualified people to do those jobs. It's a stupid thing because then you, you block others from taking those jobs, and at the same time you don't allow highly-qualified people to be working in the positions that you want them to be working in. It's... I, I don't understand it, and I feel like it's simply because it needs a lot of work from the side of the, of the authorities. And unfortunately, you know, in Denmark, the so-called life-work balance is extremely present in the public system as well. So they will never do more than the basic, than the, the, you know, minimum required. And that's sad. They will not bother to actually try to find out, okay, out of these 40,000 Ukrainian refugees that we have received, how many of them would actually be better fit in the healthcare system, in the education system, in the cybersecurity system, for God's sake? In the army?


Fionn

Mm-hmm.


Narcis

You know?


Fionn

Yeah, I, I I think you're kind of hitting the nail on the head. So the OECD has research that has described Denmark's international or immigrant employment gap, as they call it, as the highest in the OECD. So it, this is a really long-running structural issue. And so yeah, the, the question isn't, you know, are internationals coming with qualifications? We know they definitely are. But I think the Danish hiring system is not good at looking at qualifications when it doesn't look Danish. So I think one thing is, is, you know, are they actual Danish qualifications? And of course, the, you know, there is a legitimate argument to be made that what is the standard of teaching or qualifications in one country can be different and might not be to a suitable level. That, like, that's obviously true. But I think the greater issue, at least from the experiences I've seen, is very often that, you know, non-Danish experience is put second compared to things like language expectations, networks. I think there is often a, a bias in, in hiring as well in, in hiring culture. I know, firsthand, I know from friends and colleagues who have changed their names to a Danish surname because they weren't getting hired or they weren't even getting interviews, and suddenly changing their name to Nielsen instead of their, their original name got them in doors where they were getting nowhere before. And I think that, you know, that speaks to an issue in Danish hiring culture, which, you know, is covering its eyes basically and saying, "we can't find candidates. We're, we're, we're not seeing any candidates," but is completely blind to the, the pool of, of international talent that is sitting there. And, you know, there are numerous studies showing that internationals are driving the economy in many, many of Denmark's kommunes, especially in those of the, the kommunes where the population, the Danish population, is aging as well. So it is an international workforce that is often paying for the taxes that keep the kommunes running. And yet there just seems to be this kind of, as you mentioned, blind spot in, national level and not a lot seeming to be done about it.


Narcis

It's quite unfortunate, but there's not much we can do now. I mean, there are different projects and we can talk about it another time. I think we can dedicate a whole episode just to, to this situation because there are many reasons why internationals remain trapped in, in low-skill jobs. But, and there's various groups who are trapped in low-skill jobs. We-


Fionn

Hmm.


Narcis

Cannot just say internationals as a whole because they are very different. But at least the ones, the one group that is highly-skilled and should be working different jobs, what I will do as a government is, "okay, I don't trust this. Fine. Let's, let's choose the positions that I have a right, really hard time filling up." Make this one-year qualification course-


Fionn

Mm-hmm.


Narcis

For, for these people. Take everyone out because you have all the, their data when they arrived and you signed them in in the system and whatnot. Take everyone who said, "I worked five years, ten years, ten years, three years," whatever, in the healthcare system, put them all in that course, get them one year through, up-to-date with all the Danish standards, and maybe to a whatever level of, of Danish language possible, and then let them work, and then they will upgrade with time, maybe learn language on the workplace and, and with time, they will be more and more dependable as part of, of the system. And it's still gonna be hell of a lot cheaper than going out there and paying recruitment companies a lot of money, especially going, like, to Iran and bringing nurses from Iran, which is fine, but then also I hear that even that was a failure in the end because you paid to bring them here, but then you realised that you did not talk to the other parts of the system. So one part was like, "yeah, yeah. Let's bring them in. We saved this problem. Now we have enough nurses." And then they were like, "yeah, but we don't want such nurses to be working here." And then you end up having those nurses that you paid a lot of money to come here also working the same cleaning jobs that, again, are needed for other groups of people, not the highly-skilled. You know, some jobs are necessary for certain people when they start in life, when they don't have... Maybe they, they, they, they had a fallout. Uh, there's, there's many reasons why would you need such a job. And then if you, if everyone takes those jobs, then you keep out a certain group of people. It's just logic.


Fionn

Yep. Exactly.


Narcis

You know? But anyway, I think we talked a lot today.


Fionn

We have, we have. That's probably about where we need to, to leave it for, for today and for, for this week. I think there's kind of, almost in a way, three stories about well, power and, and belonging, and ultimately, like, who gets a seat at the table, whether that is the, the parties in government or trying to form a government. It's the Greenlandic people, right? And their, their own right to choose, hopefully without interference from… from a, a jingoistic power flexing its muscles, maybe, if that's allowed to say. And of course then here at home, highly-qualified people who are not having their skills utilised in, in ways that they should be. Narcis, thank you so much for, for chatting with me this week.


Narcis

Pleasure.


Fionn

And thank you so much to all of our listeners and, of course, to the whole team behind the scenes who makes this podcast happen. We will see you next week here in Denmark.


Narcis

Bye!


[Outro Music Plays]


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LWID

Host
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Fionn O'Toole

Guest
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Narcis George Matache

Guest