CTP (S3EFebSpecial1) Suffering Isn’t A Personality Test, It’s A Process

CTP (S3EFebSpecial1) Suffering Isn’t A Personality Test, It’s A Process
Exploring more of the fascinating intersection of Activism, Community Engagement, Faith / Religion, Human Nature, Politics, Social Issues, and beyond   
We explore what a suffering coach does and how to walk through grief, betrayal, and disillusionment without losing identity or hope. Kathy Garland shares her faith journey, the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation, and practical steps for healing that avoid empty hype.
• defining suffering coaching and why platitudes fail
• how culture treats pain and why that hurts recovery
• Kathy’s background, deconstruction, and rebuilt faith
• hearing God with discernment and humility
• money, power, and purifying leadership in the church
• early church lessons on love and spiritual authority
• practical healing steps for divorce and trauma
• forgiveness versus reconciliation and firm boundaries
• restoring identity with truth rather than labels
• serve the person in front of you to break paralysis
• where to find Cathy Garland’s books and writing - Revelationship.net 
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A Short Story: A Lasting Legacy? book Trailer

Transcript

Season Three Opener & Format

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hello, welcome to another episode of Pristitutionalist Podcast. I am your host, Joseph M. Warner. That's L-E-N-A-R-D. It looks French. It's not without a no. Thank you for tuning in. As Gram Norton used to say on his show. Let's get on with the show. Hello, gang. Welcome to season three. February. The season will roll into season four in uh June or July. Oh, I have to go back to see when June I started my show. June of 2022. So June of 2026 will be rolling into season four. Oh, hard to keep it all straight. Where's the time gone? But this special segment intro is for February specials. I'll be running two a week rather than one special a week on Wednesdays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays in February to get caught up on some of the interviews. And as Graham Norton currently says, he used to say, let's get on with the show. And I use that normally, but he uses now and I'm gonna borrow from him again. Let's get some guests on. Morning. This episode contains some audio and or video glitches. It is not your equipment. Joining me today will be Kathy Garland. And you all know me. I I like to joke. Even with serious topics, I generally and I had a joke ready, but I'm not gonna go there. I want to stay serious today with this serious subject. And coach will be used in this episode. Now I'm usually anti-coach because everybody calls themselves a coach. I can help you write a book, but I'm not here to coach you. I can help you to start a podcast, but I don't call myself a coach. Most of these coaches are just rah-rah rah. You go, girl, you go, boy, you got this, you're enough. You can write like Schneider in the one water boy movie. You can do it. Yeah, you got friends and family that can, could, if they care about you, do that for you. They pat you on the head and put their hand out, pay me. Well, my guest, Kathy Garland, is way different. She's a suffering coach. Something, a term I'd never heard of before, something that can be of value. We all suffer some due to our own making, our own inadequacies, our own problems that we create for ourselves, some external forces. Okay, I've rambled enough for the opening. Welcome to the show, Kathy Garland.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Thank you for having me. It is a different topic. Suffering is not one that people want to talk about. And yet, if you're suffering, you need someone to show you how to walk through the suffering without losing everything and uh questioning everything or um adding to the stress. When you're in the middle of suffering, sometimes, like you said, it's your own fault. Okay, that happens. It is uh more common than not. Uh sometimes it's just life. This is a hard life, and even if we pretend it's not, it is a hard road for most people. And and in America, I mean, I understand that hard is a whole different bag than hard in India as a child orphan. Okay, there's levels of parts. Okay, get that. So, like, once we've adjusted ourselves to that, there's still hard.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

But we're so spoiled here. We we yeah, I mean, we just gotta face up to the reality. Bunch of spoiled brats, we are here.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

We are spoiled. I hope we're not brats, but there are people who are. But like women still lose children here in America, and when you lose a child um in pregnancy or after birthing them, the pain and suffering is real, and you can't diminish that. And there is trauma here in the Western world, it's not perfect. And um, sometimes I think because it's the Western world, everybody does want everybody else to just pull themselves up by the bootstraps. When you say lose a child, for example, there's no pulling yourself up by the bootstraps. That is not what we need to say to them. And if they need to lay in the corner in a fetal position for a couple of days, we need to let them. It's an appropriate response, actually.

Kathy’s Roots And Faith Journey

SPEAKER_00 5:28

So I I can relate to what you're going, what you're speaking to here. My uh grandmother Josephine on mom's side, the Keeler, the German side. My mom's brother died the day after birth. So I I mean, and that resonates down through the whole family still today. Right. Absolutely. Yeah, so let's let's back this. I I will joke a little. Let's back this garbage truck up, right? Put it beep, beep, beep. Where were you b? We've dove right into the serious end of the pool, deep end of the pool. Let's let's go back to the shallow end. Where were you born and raised? Where are you now? Places you've been in between, that sorts of thing. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

So from the accent, you can tell I'm a southerner. I was born and raised in a day. Oh no.

unknown 6:36

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

I add uh extra syllables to every word, and uh don't ask me to pronounce words, it's probably gonna come out wrong. It's fun to hear me pronounce Greek, it's gonna end up southern Greek, I guess. Um or southern Hebrew sometimes when I do that, because I'm kind of a Bible nerd, but I grew up associate pastor, and I was not froze there for a second, so okay, southern, and you grew up. Uh grew up in the church. My dad was an associate pastor. Um, I grew up uh big family, oldest of six. Later, they adopted three more, so nine altogether that we count as siblings. Big family, lots of chaos. Um, they were hippies saved in the Jesus movement, so there's that. Um, so I grew up under the pews of church. That would be my childhood. And um, if you've ever seen the Kelsey Grammar move movie, uh Jesus uh wonderful movie, wonderful movie. That was my childhood. Like I everything that they sang, I was like, oh, I know that song, or like they're making popsicle stick like crafts, and I was like, Yep, I can make anything out of popsicle sticks. Um, you know, it's just that kind of uh open childhood where we discussed what is God doing in your life, what is he saying? Um, eventually things changed in the church that I grew up in, and a lot of I would call it greed, and the business world took over, and it shut everything down as far as relationally, and it was um sort of what they call word of faith adjacent, where it's not quite word of faith and this whole name it claim it stuff, but kind of adjacent to it.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yeah, Dennis Quaid calls it churchianity. I'm jealous. I wish I had come up with that word.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Excellent word, excellent word, very, very appropriate word. And so I saw this happen, and so I began to deconstruct at the age of 13 and told my parents, I don't think this is for me. I can see a lot of people being abused and hurt and just basically pushed right out. And my dad did his best to stand, you know, as a bulwark against it, but it was a movement that kind of blew through churches, it wasn't just our church, and so um I questioned everything, and so my dad said, then let's do it together. And so he and I went to the lab, books and books about all the major religions, many of the minor ones. I evaluated them, I asked a lot of questions, I went to conferences, I really nothing was off the table. And because of that open childhood where we sat around the dinner table discussing suicide, what happens with suicide, you know, and discussing the topics, the hard topics, no question was unexamined. And then about the age of 14, I decided for myself that the God revealed in the Bible, Christ, was who he said he was, and in particular, he wanted a relationship with me. And I think for people who grow up in the church in particular, if they don't have that moment, then they're just living on borrowed faith. And so it has to become your own. And it did in those that moment, and also I think when you grow up in Sunday school, you hear he's got the whole world in his hands, okay?

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Kumbaya, the kumbaya version of church. That's not the whole Bible that you need to teach, the whole Bible in full context and why I started my show.

Hearing God And Discernment

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Yeah, I love it, I love it, and that's that's part of it, you know. It is and and I get it, you know, as a kid you can only learn so much, and so you're supposed to build on it, but you know, I had to choose for myself and I had to rebuild because there were a lot of traditions made of men passed off as biblical revelation, and it's not, and so um I spent the next several years relationship was key, and studying the Bible was the other key. So we I would say spirit and truth, you know, walking with God, reading the Bible, but also hearing his voice. I am one who believes that God is speaking, and the reason I believe it is because he spoke in the Bible and he doesn't change. The other reason I believe it is because any human or otherwise, if they don't speak to you in a relationship, something's wrong. And so I do believe that God is speaking. Now he does it in many ways dreams, uh, who knows what. Many people receive it different ways. Sometimes I hear it in my ear, sort of inner ear kind of thing. Sometimes I feel it as an inflection in my heart, like a jump or something like that, because that captures me. Um sometimes I can't.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

I think maybe you need to see a doctor for that. No, I think it's just a joke.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

No, and that's a that's a you know, some people say that they're like, oh, you hear voices. I'm like, you do too. You just don't know who those voices are. A lot of people do have their mom's voice, their dad's voice, a lot of different voices in their head. And it's just really a matter of which voice are you gonna isolate and listen to.

Victimhood, Culture, And Revival

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah, now you mentioned a couple things going back a ways. Uh, I wanted to add major note the things that are our own fault, the suffering, the current victimology mentality today, right? It can't possibly be anything I'm doing. It's gotta be somebody. And the the increase in anti-Semitism again, right? Oh, I gotta blame a whole class of people that you know they got nothing to do all day, they don't have their own lives, they're just there to meddle in mind. It's like get over yourself, and so there's that. But the other thing was Jesus Revolution. Again, great. I say I've done a couple shows, we're in Jesus Revolution too. Now a lot of younger people, uh, especially since the Kirk assassination, are coming to Christ. But the hippies, as you mentioned, uh most of them, unless if they were Bernadine Dawn or Bill Ayers and became terrorists, they woke up to the fact, no, there has to be more than just this and me. Others do matter. And that funneled into the Jesus Revolution, which was great. And again, we've gone so far away from attacks on our Judeo-Christian foundations that again the pendulum is swinging back again with a Jesus Revolution, too. Take it you agree.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

I do, I think we've swung in many different directions. You know, it used to be that you can kind of document a swing back and forth, but I look at it as there's a whole lot of swinging going on.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Um, there's you're right, the And we're not talking about putting your keys in the bowl kind of no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Um, absolutely not. But what we are talking about is the way that culture responds to questioning, and and that is what we're talking about is questioning, because the Jesus movement was born out of the understanding that people began to have that there's more than feeding myself every kind of pleasure that I could possibly have, because at the end of pleasure, unlimited pleasure is suicide. People figure out that I've tried every pleasure and it's not what it's cracked out to be.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

It's not ultimately fulfilling the soul is empty. Yes.

Money, Power, And Purifying The Church

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Yes, and so they began to reach for something more, and it was the largest revival in the history of the church. People don't know that, but it started and went all over the world, and and there's even still kind of pockets of that if you look at the missionaries who were sent out and things like this. So it's a it was an amazing time, but then there was kind of a pendulum swing where you know it it they weren't really good at organization and things like that, and so that is why the business world came into the church to kind of help them answer their phones, like have a phone, you know, things like that started to be a problem, but it swung too far, and then money became the issue. And if you didn't have money, then you must not have been favored by God. And so, I mean, this the swings are ginormous sometimes, and you're right, there's responses to people like Charlie Kirk dying, there's responses to the chaos that's happening around us, there's responses to the chaos in the Middle East, um, you know, like what's going on in Iran right now. You know, there's people are asking questions though, and that's the root of all this. They're asking in Iran, they're saying, for example, in the Middle East, one in three Muslims has had a dream of Christ. That's the numbers they're talking right now, where Christ Himself has come to them in a dream, revealed himself, and said, follow me. And they've asked questions, they've talked with the pastor at the risk of losing their family, their life, their livelihood, their everything. And they're you're seeing the transformation of Middle East, and the root of it is people are asking, who is this Christ? And they're starting to find out there's more to um love, a loving-kindness relationship rather than the one that the Muslim religion offers. Uh, legalism and um trying to earn a possible place in some paradise. There's more, and when they're discovering that, it's changing and making earthquake waves in the Middle East.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

So yeah, it's a good idea. I held up I held up the book for the benefit of those on the 25 audio only platforms and the transcript. I'm holding up again the book by Camille Salim. I've met him, who indeed uh the book The Blood of Lambs starts with a former terrorist memoir of death and redemption. He was one of those visited by Christ indeed and and reformed and changed his life. Also, you said you might mention money and the word root. The Bible does not say money is the root of all evil, it says the love of money is the root of all evil.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

There is a big difference in those states, and I would add the love of power, because everywhere I look, it's the love of power right now, because power brings money.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Yeah, yeah. And and as you said, they became so then focused on making sure the money kept coming, and it the money, in a way, became a lot of people's god rather than God and and and worshiping Christ. So yeah, money is just a tool, it's a necessity bartering uh tool. Uh such tools have existed forever. Christ overturning the money changers' tables had nothing to do with rebelling against the tool itself, but the way the tool was used and where it was used, yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Right, absolutely. And and that I think is why you're seeing such a purification in the church right now. We I think about every week I hear about some leader somewhere having um his dirty laundry or her dirty laundry, mostly men.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

I'm not trying to be rough, but that's no hey, and that's the reality, statistically speaking. Right. This is not a sexist statement, it's a reality based on statistical information.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Statistical information about every week or so you hear about some well-known leader whose dirty laundry has been aired.

Early Church Lessons On Love And Power

SPEAKER_00 19:31

And and well, the other side of that coin, though, is too, it's still more a man's world kind of thing there. So there are, you know, when there's a million men uh opposed to a thousand women, yeah, you're gonna find a lot more dirty laundry just based on odds among the million. So there's that converse, just to be fair.

What A Suffering Coach Actually Does

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Just to be fair, absolutely. Because so it it's I think it has to do with leadership position and the push for power and money and um Um when you are caught up. Um, I I I grant that they didn't see it.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Is that a rapture joke? No, it's not a rapture joke.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

There's probably one in there somewhere. But I feel like when you are caught along, I do know that a lot of these people didn't enter in with the motivation of going wrong. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

So they were in a they had good intention at one point and got astray. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

And they were led astray, or they they desired things. Uh, Jack Deere put out, he's he's a good man, he put out a uh sort of a mia culpa where he said, I left. He he had a spiritual father, he left his spiritual father for what has now been proven to be a fraud, a total fraud. Uh, Paul Kane is his name. And he left his spiritual father to go with Paul Kane because Paul Kane gave him a prophecy, I'm putting that in air quotes for the people who are listening, that said that he was gonna be great in this next wave movement, but he was only gonna be great if he left this situation and went with Paul Kane. Okay, that should put off every bell. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Cultish indications.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Cultish. Cultish indications.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's not biblical. Like the the biblical servanthood is I am a servant of others. And if anything appeals to being great in the kingdom of God, it means you've got to be a servant in the kingdom of God. So he left and he went astray and he said, My heart desired. This is him being honest, my heart desired to be recognized from what I knew and my talents. That led him astray and caused the suffering that he went through.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

And he went beyond, and I discuss this in CPP3 book, my Christitutionalist education series, tinyurl.com slash constitutionalist edu series. Yeah, the difference between pride isn't really the sin, pridefulness, hubris is he fell to the hubris of the about me. I want the recognition, the glory for me.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

I shall arise and be. That's that Luciferian same pride that Lucifer fell pride to. But it's it's a danger, but I am glad to see the church being purged, cleansed, restored to what it's supposed to look like so that we can return to being his hands and feet. The early church won against the Roman Empire, one of the most powerful empires that ever existed, most far-reaching and most powerful. They won against them in a very short period of time because of the love that they demonstrated and because of the power they had over the demonic world. That is, I just said what Athanasius said, so I'm gonna attribute the quote to him. And also what Josephus said, and what all the historians said. They won over the Roman Empire because of those two things that they could prove. One that love transcended and that their God was a god of love, and that two, they had the power over the demonic world that was very prevalent in the Roman, Greco-Roman demon worshiping culture.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

We're talking a lot of great constitutionalist stuff. Time is flying. So let's get back to suffering coach. Let's more about that.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

So suffering is, like you said, sometimes brought on by our own self and our own decisions, but in many cases, it's also brought on by uh life and circumstances and other people's selfishness. And um, we can be it is a fallen world.

Forgiveness Versus Reconciliation

SPEAKER_00 25:23

We're all human, we're all flawed and frail and imperfect. I admit that all the time. And we need to all be able to look in our mirror and self-reflect and admit we're human and we need to be on top of ourselves to be our best.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

That's true, and with the power of the Holy Spirit and the transformation he brings, you can, but in many cases, particularly women who I deal with, they've been trapped or um they suffered through divorce, um, narcissism or self-worship is on the rise. And so um women are abandoned or dropped for a younger model, or who knows what.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

And and when I I always used to joke about that. I'm now divorced, but yeah, I because I always was one of those who dated younger women. My wife was 13 years younger than me, and she would always joke, are you ready to trade me in for two half my age? Right, so I fall victim again, able to self-reflect and know my shallowness to the attractiveness of a younger female. I I am guilty of that. I have that problem within me. That isn't other people's problems, that's a flaw within me versus in love with the character, which reminds me of the movie Do You Remember Jack Black Shallow Howl?

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Vaguely.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Yeah. Anyway, yeah, throw that away.

Beyond Denominational Divides

SPEAKER_01 27:12

You're right. No, you're right. There are within us flaws that sins is what the Bible calls them, so we can be clear about them. Flaws or sins or weaknesses. There's kind of a range there that the Holy Spirit can and should be allowed to uh destroy, remove, shore up, change, transform, whatever words you want to throw at it. And so people come to me in the middle of their suffering, and usually it's a um, it's not one of those things where I have a shingle outside my door that says I'm a suffering coach, but it they'll tell it to somebody else, and they'll say, Hey, Kathy walked with me during my divorce, and we went through these things and it changed everything. And so I'll take them through what we consider to be healing prayer in many instances, where they will go through a process of forgiving, releasing, letting go, then they can receive healing. They'll even repent for where they were wrong because no divorce, for example, is a hundred percent one person's issue, it's usually multiple issues along the way in both people, and that's not always the case, but it's the vast majority of the case, and so they'll repent.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Statistically speaking, yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Absolutely, and so they'll go through that process and the suffering is lessened because if you've got to walk through the valley of the shadow of death, just to borrow some phrasing here, if you have some people along the way who are saying, follow this path, you'll get through it faster. Follow this path, and you're going to get through it easier because you're not going to be mired in some un you know, some self-pity pit, and you can get through it over this with the forgiveness. I'm not saying you invite them back into your house. Forgiveness uh and reconciliation are two very, very, very different things. Forgiveness, I'll give you people an understanding because I deal with this all the time. People are like, Well, if I forgive him, does that mean I have to go back to him? No, it does not mean that. Forgiveness means that I'm happy you're going to be at the Lamb's Supper when we all join him and we celebrate. I'll be happy you are there, but it doesn't mean you're coming to my supper.

Help The Person In Front Of You

SPEAKER_00 30:24

I'm drawing a blank. I just saw a special the other day, and indeed the difference is again, Christ didn't say go forth and create a bazillion different denominations in my name. Humans screwed that up, right? And the difference between a lot of the churches with uh repentance and the Catholic line, born and raised Catholic, full disclosure, uh I forget the word, the pee will penance repentance and penance are two different things, both have and can and could and maybe should play a part, but those are kind of the Hebrew versus the Greek background philosophies in that. So there's that, and part of the reason why I created the show, we need to focus on the things we agree on under Christ, not the things that separate us. Uh even in one of my books, I have my character reflects the war between Catholics and Protestants because of England went through Catholicism, then a uh Pentecostal reform, and then back to Catholicism and the whole state church thing. But Catholics and Protestants, how long did they fight and kill and maim each other over minor doctrinal differences? Uh Christ doesn't win in that situation, Satan does.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Sure. I do think Luther had good intentions to deconstruct the excesses that he saw and some very major situations because at the time it was uh salvation earned, not salvation given by grace, and that is a very big doctrine that we would have disagreed with. I don't see the Catholic Church drumming that drum anymore. I think it was an excess of the time, and certain bishops had written certain things and had gone that direction.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah, yeah. Right. I mean, you can have a bad pope. I I called Francis the Nycom Pope. He was more interested in worldly communism than Catholicism. So that's why I had to quit the Knights of Columbus. Their rule, you don't criticize the Pope. Nope, sorry, I worship Christ, not a Pope. He's just a man like any other, frail and flawed.

Restoring Identity After Trauma

SPEAKER_01 33:03

But uh as a as a non-denominationalist, I I tend to more agree. I don't look at the Pope as much of anyone as a leader, but I do appreciate when leaders of any denomination will speak out for certain things. Um, but like abortion, for example, or for um rights, children's rights, and different things. Uh, you know, child slavery has got to end, like hello, we are in 2026, let's end child slavery, let's end those kinds of things. But you know, I I don't know that I have the solution to those problems. What I have the solution to is for the people in front of me and the people who come to me and they say, This life is falling apart at the seams. And I've had women who have fallen to the ground or laid down with the overwhelm of what they're facing and the dream that they had versus the reality they're in and the suffering that they're going through, and to walk them through it, there's a a Jewish thought, and that is that you don't take on the whole world, which is sort of an evangelical kind of idea. You take on and solve the whole world's problem. I think they called it olam, if I'm not saying again, I'm southern, I can say things wrong. But the idea is that you take care of the person in front of you. So if I see someone who is homeless and the Holy Spirit gives me the opportunity and safe for me to do so, because I am a woman, I'm gonna try to meet those needs. If I see a child who does not have a lunch, I'm going to meet that need.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

It all begins one person at a time, right? You cannot solve the macro without first working on the micro.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

And that's what I can do. And beyond that, it'll paralyze people, and then they'll do nothing. That's not where we need to be either. So, suffering coaches, they're just guiding people. I've been through this before. I know enough to know that these are the paths through, and I know enough to know what the Bible says about you. That's very important because a lot of times when people go through suffering, their whole identity is shook from the ground up. And so you have to say, let's let go of anything that they said over you. Like I had a my first husband, he would sometimes say over me, you know, we'd have a better marriage if you had ex. And and it was devastating to me because it wasn't something I could have. And it was based on his unrealistic, porn-informed life. And so I was like, uh, I can't do, I can't, I what am I supposed to do? And so I had no identity shaking in that. I had identity shaking in that moment. And so women go through that identity shaking. So what they have to do is they have to see what God says about them. Okay, God says I'm his first. He says the banner over me is I'm beloved. El Roy, he sees me and the injustice that is done to me, and he's going to do something about it. What that looks like, I don't know, but he's going to do something about it. So I take women through an understanding of who they are in who he is. Because he's El Roy and he sees their seen, because he's Jehovah Sitkunu or Jehovah Shema or any of these names, because he's those things, it means something for who they are. And that seems to help women go through it because you're not having to drag all this luggage, baggage of what somebody else has said about you. That isn't true.

Resources, Website, And Closing

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Yeah, uh in starting to close things up, I can't pass on the joke. L not the blues brother, Elroy. Not that one. Anyway, okay. I can I'm sorry. Again, serious topics, but you still have to maintain a sense of you, people, or like the Cypher Hill song says, you go insane in the membrane, right? So I'm that's where do you have a website where people could find you?

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Yes, so they can find uh my books on revelationship.net and my blog, which is real short and it's just perfect for moms who are hiding from their kids in the bathroom for a few minutes. Um it's revelationship.net. Revelationship is God revealing himself as he pursues us for relationship.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

So revelationship and R E R E V E L T I O N S I S H H I P dot net. That's right. Revelationship. That's right. Yeah. Um, and that's I originally when I wrote it down, I put revealship. No, there's no a in there. Well, there's an uh yeah, no a in there. R-E-V-E-L-T-I-O-N-S-I-I-P dot net. And in post, it'll be on a scroll in the video version for people, but now we've spelled it out for the audio and the transcript. So uh I I like to repeat a guest's name. I haven't done it enough this episode. So thank you, Kathy Garland. And again, that'll be on the scroll in the video version. So thank you, Kathy Garland, for joining today. Time has flown again. As with every guest, we could talk for three days, but then it'd be too long, no one would pay attention. True. Take care, God bless, love you. Like and subscribe to Christitutionalist Politics Podcast and share episodes. We need your help. Thank you for having tuned into another Christitutionalist podcast show. I really appreciate that you stop by. Again, please like, share, subscribe. We need you to help spread the constitutionalist movement. Thank you and take care. God bless. Love you all.