CTP (S4EJunSpeical3) Who Does Separation Of Church And State Protect

CTP (S4EJunSpeical3) Who Does Separation Of Church And State Protect
Exploring more of the fascinating intersection of Activism, Community Engagement, Faith / Religion, Human Nature, Politics, Social Issues, and beyond - all in Biblical perspective
We sit down with filmmaker Andrew Linn to follow the story of Roger Williams from Puritan exile to Rhode Island founder and to rethink what separation of church and state was meant to do. We argue that liberty of conscience protects faith from government power and that civic ignorance turns a hard-won principle into a modern weapon. 
• Andrew’s family name origin and Ellis Island simplifications 
• Growing up in Maryland, studying film, settling in West Virginia 
• Roger Williams’s banishment and the Massachusetts Bay theocracy 
• Rhode Island’s charter and an early model of church state separation 
• Freedom of religion versus freedom from religion as competing frameworks 
• Taxes to established denominations and the Danbury Baptists context 
• Ten Commandments debates, history in schools, and civil law limits 
• Liberty of conscience as a guard against forced “conversion” 
• Christian nationalism concerns and lessons from European sect conflict 
• Propaganda and “strongman Christianity” narratives around Russia 
• Demoralization, universities, and why civics education matters 
• Collectivism, individual responsibility, and e pluribus unum as a lived ideal 
www.churchandstatedoc.com 
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A Short Story: A Lasting Legacy? book Trailer

Transcript

Name Origins And Family Stories

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Joining me today will be Andrew Lennon. No, there's only two N's there, not three or four. L I N N. But yeah, there's kind of an extra N on there. I don't know. Maybe we'll ask them why. But welcome to the show, Andrew.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Oh, thank you very much, Joe. Thank you for having me on.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

So indeed, let's let's go there. Why the two N's? Andrew spelled what most would consider normal, A N D R E W, but Lin L I N N.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Yeah, go figure, right? So a lot of people uh think that uh Lin, well, a lot of people before they beat me, they think I'm Asian. You know, I'm not bingo!

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Exactly. You see the word Lin, but that's usually one end.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

So yeah. That's right. So I learned I've learned that that's uh Taiwan, common in Taiwan, Lin. But anyway, my grandparents immigrated from Russia, great-grandparents, and uh they had some big long, confusing, you know, last name. And so, yeah, Ellis Island, they shortened it to Lin. So who knows what it was before then.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

I hear you. Uh, on mom's side of the family, uh uh it became Keeler from the Kiel Germany region migrated. I have no idea what it was before. Oh, okay, you're from the Kiel region? Keeler, it is, you know, and and on dad's my last name, Leonard. It looks French. It's not. It actually was Leonard Owaskowitzki or whatever, right? Big long Polish thing. It got chopped to Leonard, but without the O. So so I hear you. Names are always a uh a fun uh exploration with me because of all these weird origins and store origin stories, and well, let's chop it down and make it easier, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah, yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

So, where were you born and raised? Where are you now? Significant places you may

Growing Up And Moving Around

SPEAKER_01 2:23

have been in between, and how much time did you spend in prison for what? For the benefit of the transcript, he's laughing. We're laughing. This is a joke, people. This is a joke, but where you're born, raised, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I was born in uh Alney, Maryland. I grew up in Mount Erie, Maryland, and I lived there most of my life, and then became a nomad when I became a young adult and moved all over the place from Winchester, Virginia to Baltimore. My college was in Florida, Orlando, Florida. It's called Full Sale University. I went there for TV and film. Um, and then uh right now I've settled with my family in West Virginia. So so I've been, you know, run the game.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Now I'm gonna have that in my head almost half in West Virginia. Yeah, you know, speaking of you know state names and whatnot, you mentioned Maryland, so I've got a I got my audience knows I can't pass on the lame puns. Were you indeed Mary while in Maryland?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Yes and no. It was a good place to grow up, but uh it I don't like it much anymore. But yeah. Yeah. Okay, so going off the deep end over there, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Yeah, I hear you, I understand. Uh anyway, or at any rate, as my audience knows, the ongoing running gag. I I've cut out the odds and ums that you gotta try to avoid, but I've found I use the verbal crutch for segueing of at any rate, so it's been an ongoing running gag ever since. I don't even bother to try to stop myself anymore, and in fact, throw some extras in for fun. So, indeed, at any rate, the real reason you're here is you created a documentary, Church and State,

The Documentary And Roger Williams

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Roger Williams and the founding of freedom of religion. Uh what was Christian show so obvious pun? What was the genesis of that project?

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Well, I guess the genesis started with Roger Williams' exodus. So uh Roger Williams is a little known figure, or maybe not, he's not a very well-known figure from our uh history. He's the founder of Rhode Island, and uh the exodus I mentioned was he he was a Puritan that came here, immigrated from England, and he was a he settled in the Massachusetts Bay colony with these other Puritans, and he was a preacher, he was a Christian. Uh people respected and loved him and admired him for his intellect and so forth. Uh, but they ended up banishing him because he believed in freedom of conscience, freedom of religion. A lot of people don't know that the Puritans had basically a religious state set up or Massachusetts, um, where they controlled every aspect of your life if you live there, and they would boot you out for all kinds of reasons. You could be too proud if they deemed you were too.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

They literally were a theocracy at the time. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Exactly. So the while people think, and yes, people came here from Europe for religious persecution to be free from that, uh, the history was kind of repeating itself. They were starting new uh colonies that still had religion embedded with government. And so when Roger Williams was banished from Massachusetts Bay Colony, he founded Rhode Island, and as far as we know, he started the first colony with the first charter in world history to have separation of church and state in its charter, uh, which he got from England and is basically the colony's constitution of that time.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Well, when people hear church and state, they immediately they don't think Williams, they think the Jefferson letter, and of course the bastardization of it now gone from a minor quasi please have a separation of church and state to a degree to freedom from religion of today, and that's not what was intended.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Exactly. I would I find it hard to believe, of course, now the the excuse me, the um charter for Rhode Island is not the U.S. Constitution, and Roger Williams is not technically a founder that we think of. Uh he was about a hundred years prior to the to the founders we think of who founded the United States and wrote the Constitution.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

But our founders learned from him.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Yes, uh, you know, were inspired by a lot of figures. We don't know exactly if they were directly influenced by Roger Williams, but I'm sure they obviously knew the charter and the freedom of religion that took place in Rhode Island. And uh the big thing was I would doubt that these, specifically Roger Williams, who again was a preacher, I would really doubt that he was trying to get rid of God in religion. You know, I don't think he wanted freedom from religion. I think he recognized that when you mix religion and politics, you get politics, and people who seek power are often not the best people, people who seek positions of power in politics, and they would persecute people like him, true Christians, real Christians. So the idea is to protect the church, not to destroy and get rid of the church.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Exactly. It does it does not preclude religious people from being a government, it's supposed to protect us from the government intruding on our churches, like the Johnson amendment or the Johnson rule. But yet today, a worldly communist can go into a church and speak all day about worldly communism and the leftist deep state not a peep, but if a a Christian candidate, a constitutionalist as I coined, goes into a church and actually chalk talks biblical Jesus, biblical community, far different than worldly communism. There's linkage, but different, and oh up and down, and we're gonna pull your tax exempt exempt status. Yes?

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Yep, absolutely, yeah. And and that's you know, the freedom of and freedom from is very important distinction. And we have an example of freedom from religion, it's called communism. Communism is an atheistic form of government, and if you look at China, you can see uh what how the church is treated in a communist freedom from religion uh government that's persecuted, and then uh a lot of people will ask me, well, here in America, are we under threat as Christians? We're always under threat as Christians, but by the grace of God, even if they do come against us and violate their constitutional rights, the federal government or state government, we fortunately do have the constitution to push back. So they might get you know some gains, but they'll they'll win some battles, but they're not gonna win the war as long as we you know stick to the original intent and and the constitution. Yeah. Use the constitution to our benefit.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah, and I understand why we have the notion of tax exempt status

Freedom Of Religion Versus From It

SPEAKER_01 9:54

for religious uh well, let me back up. Uh, also inspired by the Bradford Colony and the failure of worldly communism there, the Mayflower Commie Compact, a Commonwealth. Everyone was supposed to put in equally, to get out equally. And of course, like the Animal Farm movie that's out now, that's not what happens. You get more and more. It's why Jesus said the poor will always be among you. There will always be some who won't do anything, they want to be pulled in the cart, and especially will get away with that if others are willing to reward them for their sloth.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Yes, right. Absolutely. Like, and I've heard it explained like in the old testament where it said, leave the corners of your field for the poor to come and you know get food. Well, yeah, they had to work to get the food. It wasn't, you know, give it to them. They had to go and you know, glean the whatever to get the the food, the resources. They still had to work to get it. It wasn't just leave it, you know, you do all the work and you leave them a portion. It was no leave the corners for them to do the work so they can grab and get themselves.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

I just uh I just quoted Calvin Coolidge, former President Coolidge, on X today, uh paraphrasing one is not one may be down, but they are not truly out. But charity uh no man makes his way back from down without personal effort. The difference between a helping hand up and a handout, which in modern parlance has become a leftist practice of creating dependency to buy votes that way. Power and control over people will let you be lazy, little like the animal farm movie. Hey, free grain, free grain, nothing's free. There's always attachments, but to the tax exempt status, I really would like a church to grow grow the cojones to say, you want our tax exempt status? Take it. Go ahead. We'll start paying it, and we will say what we want to say from the pulpit, as they should. Why we're giving and again, I I understand why we're doing it, but at the same time, a political nonprofit doesn't have exempt uh tax-deductible statuses. The shirt churches probably shouldn't either. And then they would be unrestrained and then lower the taxes for everybody, so nobody's paying so much in taxes.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah, potentially that's a good idea, you know. But, you know, in turn, I think the idea behind no taxes on churches was for them to be charitable organizations.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

The Bulworth of our Judeo Christian Foundation's biblical community, right? Charity. The local charity knows, and the Bible makes the distinction. I'm on disability. The Bible makes the distinction between those who are unable and those who are unwilling willing. Back to Jesus' statement. And indeed, the local charity knows the difference between someone who needs and someone who's a lazy con. Government doesn't bother to even attempt to make the distinction, and why we have so much fraud in it today, yes?

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Right. Amen. Yeah, absolutely. And an important thing also about taxes uh part of the reason I made this film is to uh remind people of the history or teach people the history. A lot of people don't know this stuff. Uh, when people think of separation of church and state, when they think of that Danbury Baptist letter with Jefferson, uh, what they what he was addressing was they were concerned the Baptists, because in that time the colonies each had their denomination, as I mentioned. So when you lived in a colony, you would pay taxes to a specific denomination, whether you agreed with that denomination or were of that denomination or not. So if you lived in Virginia, were a Baptist, you were paying taxes to the Anglican church. And as a Baptist, you you don't like that. Why would you like that? Why are your taxes going to that specific denomination? So that's in part, that was one of the reasons for what Jefferson was talking about, the separation of church and state. And then also they didn't want a as um a denomination ruling over the country federally, one denomination, uh, because that was the case in Europe, and that was the case in the colonies. Yeah. And they knew that you know that wouldn't be good because it always ended in strife between the

Taxes, Denominations, And Jefferson’s Letter

SPEAKER_00 14:48

colonial.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

And and as you pointed out to a degree or alluded to, uh, implied a lot for sure, uh, each colony and eventually even many of the states had their own constitutionally declared official church. Right. It's not a violation for a state to have it in their constitution, it's a violation for the federal government to have it in place. Yes?

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah, absolutely. And so, for instance, uh, one of the gentlemen I interviewed for the documentary, he's a New York Times best-selling author, and he wrote the premier book on Roger Williams. It's called Roger Williams and the Creation of the American Soul. And he's left of center, or maybe far left, either way. He uh he he I asked him a question do you think there's a violation or is it in threat today, the separation of church and state? And he said a clear violation is where he lives in Louisiana, they put Ten Commandments in public schools or something. And so a lot of people would say that that's a violation, but I would say if the people want it and they voted for it, what does it matter?

SPEAKER_01 15:57

If that's what the the vote voted for it, we are not a mobocracy, so I would oppose it from the mobocracy standpoint, but I support it based on our nation's our battle cry of our revolution was no kings but King Jesus. So the no kings crowd aren't even only anti-Western, they're anti-religious, they're anti-Christian. No kings but King Jesus isn't the cry of a bunch of atheists. So, historically speaking, the Ten Commandments and the reading of the Bible belong in schools as a historical reference to our foundations.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Well, yes, and I I missed the No Kings protest when King Charles was speaking of Congress interesting enough.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Exactly. They were busy clapping like seals.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Yeah, right. It's it's ridiculous. And and and speaking of the king subject, uh Roger Williams uniquely, just as you said, King Jesus. This is what he believed. We had two swords, two tables, and two kings, right? So our two kingdoms, uh the kingdom of man, which is of this world, and the kingdom of Christ, and the two swords. We had the sword of the state, which is to prevent evil, Romans 13, and promote the good. And then we have the sword of the spirit, which changes men's hearts. And Roger Williams's whole point, his big point was liberty of conscience. You can force people to go to church on Sunday, that doesn't make them a Christian, that makes them a hypocrite.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

So I I talk about that all the time. Like when my books, I try to deal in subtle portrayal and nudges of Christianity. The stereotypical Bible thumper, right? Beating someone over the head with the Bible and oh, here comes that wacko Christian again. Just yes, just tell them you're a believer and let them go on. That's a fake, that's a false,

Liberty Of Conscience And Two Tables

SPEAKER_01 18:08

it's not a real conversion. They have to really truly accept Christ. And you're not helping save their soul if you're beating them over the head with the Bible that they lie to you about being a Christian.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah, exactly. And and also, and Roger would say um that you're violating their conscience, that's a rape of the soul to take somebody to church or to do whatever, you know, force people to be religiously conformed to what you believe is the true doc uh true faith or true denomination. Um, and he also, as far as the Ten Commandments were concerned, I thought this was very unique. Uh, he believed that the two tables of the Ten Commandments, you the civil governments, ever since ancient Israel, he believed ancient Israel was the only theocracy, you know, sanctioned by God, which if we're biblical Christians, that is true, it's the only theocracy sanctioned by God. So that all civil governments since then can only enforce the second table of the Ten Commandments. Uh people's relationship with one another, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill. But the first table, uh, our relationship to God, that's a personal private matter, um, which I think was very brilliant and very interesting and very radical at the time.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

I love it. I absolutely and to me that is more Christ-like. And again, he won, he invited, he wanted people to come, he didn't force people to come. Uh, a couple things you mentioned back to the king, yeah, King Charles. So the left is clapping like trained seals. Why? Because the king's in Congress peddling left-wing climate man-made climate money laundering schemism. So, of course, they're clapping the king. And the other thing is uh you mentioned uh we we're talking about the Ten Commandments. Penn, I talk about all the time of Penn and Teller, you know, the comedy magician team. Uh Penn, devout atheist. But I don't have a problem with him. I love him. I think he's a great role model because he's not one of those I hate all religion type atheists. He's like with gays, tolerance, okay, that's fine. That's between you and God. I but there's a difference between tolerance and the red line, as I coined gate of engaging in gatorism and pushing pedophilia. That's all way, those are two different things. But Penn has said over and over, he has no problem with the Ten Commandment tablets being on the SCOTUS building and Moses being up there. He recognizes, though he's an atheist, whether you come to thou shalt not, he has no right to steal my stuff, nor me, my, me, his, or him the right to kill me, or me the right to kill him. And whether you come at that through the theological or just, hey, it's just a good social standard. Right. Whatever way you come at that is fine, but that's recognizing our history. He's not trying to destroy our history like most cultural Marxist atheists want, or even, I dare say, Matthew 23, vipers, snakes, blind guides who don't, you know, want to take a scripture or two but ignore the context of the whole Bible and destroy our culture.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Yeah, absolutely. And that's a an important distinction, as you'd mentioned, that uh So the founders believed in freedom. They didn't believe in anarchy. So that's an important distinction. Roger Williams wasn't an anarchist. As a Christian man, he believed in authority and government. We need government. Government is sanctioned by God, but the founders just believed, and I think rightly so, we need limited government. And so, yeah, and then as far as atheists goes, like you mentioned, Penn, um, I didn't I knew he was an atheist. I think he's funny. I've seen his stuff. I didn't know all that he believes, but that's good that he's not against that stuff because here's the reality. Um, we are not a theocracy, of course, but we are foundationally Christian. You can't deny this fact. All uh all laws are based on a culture's beliefs. So if we go to the Middle East, there's polygamy. We don't have polygamy here. Why don't we have polygamy here? Uh, if you go to Papua New Guinea, uh, there are tribes who do cannibalism as part of their culture. We don't have cannibalism. Why is that? Why do we have these laws? Because they're foundationally from the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

These are laws, our culture endowed by our creator with unalienable rights. And Adams, our constitution is for a moral and just religious people that is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other. And we strayed from that. And I was on coincidentally, uh, Joel calls his show church and state. I was on church and state the other day show, and he came up with a term I like minarchism, right? Indeed, left of complete right, zero government, minarchism, minimal limit. That's indeed what our government was supposed to be. Minarchism, not no law or no rules, and every man, woman, and child for themselves, like total anarchy. They were not for that, as you pointed out. They were minarchists, had they thought of the term like Joel did.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Right. Yeah, absolutely. And uh, you know, even even the deists would, you know, which I guess he would call an agnostic like a Benjamin Franklin, he said, if men are so evil with religion, what would they be without it? So again, these people weren't, even the people who weren't Christian weren't against religion. They weren't, you know, they didn't want it. The first thing uh George Washington did after Congress ratified the First Amendment was asked him to have a day of prayer and Thanksgiving. Wait a minute, a president of the United States he can't pray, he can't talk about God and Jesus. That's ridiculous. Get out of here. Separation of church and state.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Yep, yep. Again, that they don't want separation of church and state. As I coined, I wrote on the forex news decades ago, they want lib religion, tinyurl.com slash lib religion. They want separation from church to state. That's what they they want Democrats to be God, they want government to be God, to replace religion, yes. And uh I I made an uh what did I do? I lost my note, but yeah, something else you said triggered something in a good way, and I forget what it was now, though. But oh, Ben Franklin, yes, uh an American experiment was recently in the movies. I didn't get a chance to see it. It didn't play in a theater near me, but in it indeed was the exchange between Franklin and uh the guy of the Black Robe Regiment. I forget, right? I he's out flying the kite with the key to prove electricity. I you know, and Ben rightly, and you can find it in his writings. We're not making this up. I mean, you can read the Federalist papers, the anti-federalist papers in their own memoirs. It's not like we're making this stuff up. He's out there flying it, and you know, I I am but the tool. I'm flying the kite, the electricity will hit it, it will come down to the key. And the other guy, the the preacher says, but who is the source of that lightning and power? God, God's nature. So, yes, that exchange shows the the exact dynamic you're talking about. Ben Franklin as not necessarily a Christian, but a believer in a higher power.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Right. And yeah, a lot of people will bring up the fact that there were deists involved in the founding. Well, they they act like they were anything.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

They still believe in God.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Yeah, it was Thomas Jefferson who wrote the Declaration of Independence. You know, one nation under or that's not what it says. That's the uh, but yeah, that says uh we know what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. These truths we we are self-evident. Uh, our our rights are endowed by our creator. You know, what you'd be, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

An atheist doesn't say that.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah, right. And that's a pretty important thing to put the mentioning of God, you know, and yet we're what about the separation of church and state? You could put you can't put God in the founding documents, and then at the end of the constitution, put in the year of our Lord. Uh what kind of amen.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Amen. I just made myself a note here to I I've got a song, No Kings, but King Jesus. All about in our battle cry was that. And these people out a nation who threw off the crown 250-ish years ago, they're out protesting no kings, and as we both said, they're clapping like seals for an actual king when he's here. So I'm gonna put my no kings but King Jesus song at the end of this episode for people to hear. Uh, but also in the notes here, I see it is touched on. Do you go back? Because people think, well, Catholics and Protestants, that was really an Irish English thing. Well, a little of that was mixed in, but yeah, in fact, in my The Book of Kennedy, as well as my nonfiction constitutionalist politics books, Kennedy ponders her Christianity and laments that very fact. Catholics and Protestants murdering and maiming each other well into the 80s, uh, over minor, although some would consider it major, I call it minor doctrinal differences. Focus on what we agree with under Christ, right? So you go way back to the origins of it in the Church of England.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Yes, that's correct. So I I tell the history of why freedom of religion came about. It's because uh the uh, for instance, in England, funny enough, you know, the king or the queen queen was the head of the church, and so but they would come in and some of them would be different denominations. One could be a Catholic, like Queen Mary, and slaughter all the Protestants, and then you know, a Protestant king would get in and you know they persecute the Catholics. So it was going back and forth like a sea, ridiculous, ridiculous, yes, ridiculous. So um, you know, that's the whole that was the foundation. This is what pushed people here. That's why it's a part of our identity in the in America, and that's why it's so important, and we can't lose it. Of course, we got the wacky leftists who are against it, but now we have people on the right who are calling for Christian nationalism, which sounds good when you're a Christian. You're like, Yeah, I love my country, I'm a Christian, I must be a Christian nationalist. Well, what these people are calling for is bringing back a king. They want a Christian prince to rule over the country because they think that will solve the nation's problems, and it won't. And one last thing is Roger Williams' brother was in um, I think Turkey or somewhere in the Middle East, um, and he said he found more tolerance in these Muslim countries than he did in all of Europe, which is insane. That shouldn't be the case.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Where they're threatening to behead you if you dare say you're a Christian. Yeah, but yeah, in a way, in certain parts, yes, certain parts no. But yeah, I I I get what you're saying here. And indeed, we have come a long way, and it's because of our nation's foundations and the application of these principles. The rest of the West, not the east, I mean China, and and despite Putin's supposed newfound Christianity, he's made the Russian Orthodox, you said you've got Russian back, he's

Christian Nationalism And European Warnings

SPEAKER_01 31:06

turned the Russian Orthodox Church into the Putin Church. Yeah, it's not Christian anymore, it's a fake Putin nationalist church now. Oh, you agree with that or no?

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Yeah, absolutely. I I've heard that, oh, you know, this is real. I'm not kidding. On the woke right, I've heard from people close to me that Russia is the good guys, they're protecting Christianity, they're the modern crusaders. You can't even share your faith in Russia, it's against the law. I mean, this is insane. You can't preach the gospel, and they are not, you know, it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

It's the same reason how and why a spam burglar can get elected as governor because people listen to what's coming out their mouths and ignore the biblical principle. You shall know them by their fruits. Their actions speak louder than words, but they, oh, they sound great. Putin sounds great when he's fewing that nonsense. He doesn't believe he's KGB, he learned from history. Pope John Paul II, Reagan, and Thatcher brought down the Soviet Union together with the Russian Orthodox Church within corrupting the Soviet Union within with the help of the Pope. He knows that. So if he wants to reconstitute the Soviet empire, he has to pretend, ah, well, we may not be full Christian, but we're Christian like, or as you said, he's got a lot of idiots here bamboozled into thinking, oh, he's really the next Jesus. I mean, no, he's a lot closer to the Antichrist than he is to Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yes?

Putin, Propaganda, And Fake “Christian” States

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yeah, right. Absolutely. He's a look, I respect him as a strong leader who's good for his country, but they're they're our enemy, our long-standing enemy for since you know time and tomorrow. And, you know, so unfortunately, on the woke right, we're having a cultural Marxism where instead of tearing down statues, they're tearing down our history, saying Churchill was the bad guy and the West is the bad guy. And they're even saying, I don't know if you've heard this, but this is that we as America are we hate Catholicism and we bomb Nagasaki specifically because they had the largest Catholic population in Japan. And so it was an attack. Yeah, we had the largest denomination of Christians in this country Catholic, and we've had two Catholic presidents. It's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

It is, it is absurd, and uh I forgot where I was gonna go there. Uh, because you mentioned Nagasaki. Oh, darn, I lost my train of thought there. But yeah, it was along the lines of this absurdity and this misap. Oh, it it wasn't, it's true, it's undeniably true that FDR turned back boats of Jews fleeing persecution in in Europe. So was FDR anti-Semitic? Well, we could debate that, right? But those facts would suggest so, and he was reluctant to get us into World War II. He only went against Germany because Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, they were allies. Germany declared war on us when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, so he had no choice, but he was keeping us out of that war. So it doesn't mean he was siding with anti-Christian nations in that point, but there was at least a streak of listening to the anti-Semitic crowd and turning back the Jews from being able to flee Europe, yes?

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Yeah, right. And and if we're talking about attacking Catholics, I mean, let's look to Europe. I mean, uh, when Hitler invaded, you know, Italy or all these other countries that are Catholic or Orthodox, why don't we mention that? Was he not uh attacking Catholicism? I mean, he wasn't a you know a good figure for the Catholic Church or any Christian denomination. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

No, Putin, Putin is a lot like Hitler. I get he's a student of history. He learned Hitler feigned, he didn't want to marry because he wanted to be the single, the father of all. Christ-like, in feigned, right? Very anti-abortion, unless if you were a Slav or a black or a Jew, then murder them, yes. But yeah, he wanted this quasi-religiousity to be able to cater and indeed summon the church, went along with that. So, yeah, it's more complex. And the problem is people are simple, too simple nowadays. Uh, how stupid have Americans become is one of my the Liberty Beacon.com articles. And your documentary, uh, again, Church and State, Roger Williams and the founding of freedom of religion, not from it, is about educating because we don't get it in our indoctrination factories.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Well, that's where this comes from. This uh freedom from religion stuff comes from public school and college-educated people.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

They the university, the atheist communistic universities, especially, yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Yes, they're very they're anti-American, they're anti-Christian. And so, in a sense, I don't know if you've heard of Yuri Bezmanov, yeah, uh, but he was a KJB defector in the 80s, and and he came and he spoke about what the plan of the Russians was, and at this point it seems to have succeeded, destroyed from the inside. They go demoralization and so forth, they go to the universities and they transform thought. And with he said, within two or three generations, you've completed your task.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

You know, and Saul Olinsky, the the idol of the left, a cultural Marxist student, and all of Olinsky is indeed that Russian communist plan of undermining within.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Right, and destroying our identity. That's what's happening right now. People don't know who or what we are, and both on the woke right and the woke left, they're trying to transform it into some uh on the left, they want to become an atheistic, communistic country. On the right, they want to become a theocratic communist country. And it's just it's I oppose both.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

For the record, yeah, for the record, we agree we oppose both. We were never meant to be a theocracy, and that's part of the whole point of the separation of church and state. There shall not be a one denominational or even one religion choosing Judaism, Christianity, or Islam, like some of the Islamo fascist left wanting to impose an Islamopascist cattle

Schools, Demoralization, And Civic Amnesia

SPEAKER_01 38:36

fake government here. I oppose that, whether it be Islam or Christianity. It's not meant to be that way, but that doesn't mean you eliminate it either.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Right. Yeah, exactly. Um, and again, with Roger Williams and the two kings, and that ancient Israel was the only theocracy sanctioned by God, he believed that uh the kingdom of Christ is internal in the body of Christ, and we are sent out among nations. Jesus didn't start a nation, he he has a nation, Israel, and he'll return and he'll rule and reign from Israel. In the meantime, we're a spiritual kingdom. He sends us out into the nations to preach the gospel, transform nations. We're not uh to establish governments, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Preach, preach, and teach, not like Islamo fascism at the barrel of a gun or will chop your head off if you don't convert.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Yes, and and as compared to what? You know, thank the Lord for things that we can compare to, like communism, like Islam. Islam is more of a political ideology to me than it is a religion. It's religion. Depending on no separation of church and state in Israel.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Right, right. In most of it, anyway. Like I support Dr. Sudy Jasser, who wrote the book Reform, the Battle of the for the soul of Islam. He applies and believes in the separation issues, as opposed to a Rashida Taliban representative out of Michigan, who is as an Lamo fascist, terrorist sympathizer, supporter. There, you know, it's like Christianity, and some people still don't know this. They don't know and they just refuse to learn. In Christianity, you have sex and denominations, and in my terror strikes book, coming soon to a near city near you, I go into in the Tokyo chapter, the Christian doomsday cult in Tokyo that engaged in terrorism, who are like the modern Islamo fascist 12 cult, who indeed there's Sunni, there's Shia, there's Wahhabiism, there's the Twelver cult, and the Twelver cult, Arabic, Islamo fascist 12 occultists are the ones oppressing the Persians who were not who are not Arab, they're Persian, different, and most people don't figure that out. And also the Zoro somethingism. I is the traditional real faith of the Persian people, not Islam, it's being forced and imposed upon them. So I I I make I had

Islam, Communism, And Collectivist Thinking

SPEAKER_01 41:30

that argument the other day. It is a collectivist, absolutist notion, and it's anti-biblical to say all Muslims are, you know, either terrorists or terrorists. Germany, not all of them were Nazis. A lot of them were silent, and look what happened, and it got out of control. And that history is rhyming again there. There aren't enough Zooty Jassers speaking up and out against his own faith and that radicalism to prevent another situation like 30s Germany uh in the 2030s now. Um so but yeah, it's a call it's anti-biblical to be a collectivist absolutist. No group of at black, white, or pink polka dotted. If it's skin tone or religious based or politically based, you cannot declaratively make collectivist absolutist statement. All this group thinks this, we are not the Borg.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Yes, right. You could say all are under sin. We could say that, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:56

I for every rule there's an exception, and you you thank you for that uh correction. I I'm human, I'm frail, I'm flawed. I can make a mistake, and thank you for correcting me on that. That's the one exception to the rule.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Yes, right. And look at the nation of Israel 12 tribes, two kingdoms. I mean, and this is God's chosen nation. He created it, and yeah, it was not, it was not a well, it wasn't very collectivist, as you mentioned. It wasn't uh, you know, unified and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

But uh God created us and gave us free will. Martin Luther King Jr., the content of one's character, regardless of your skin tone, you have free will and choice. You are not part of the group that the left wants to insist. You must belong and think exactly like we are individuals. Everyone must be given the opportunity to show their character.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Yes. And I I heard this uh Jewish conservative guy from England, he framed it like this that communism wants to make everybody into bricks. Whereas capitalism or free markets uses what God created, stones, because we're not all the same. And it works with stones, it builds with stones, whereas communism tries to make everybody conform to the same image, to strip them of their individuality, their god individuality and identity, and build with that. And that's anti-anti-American and it's anti-human, really. It's horrible.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

I wish I would have thought of that just the other day. I and I will tack this on as a song, also, e Plurbus Unum, right? From many one. Yes, we are stones, not bricks, not all shaped the same. But yes, building, putting stones together, coming together voluntarily by choice, although e pluribus unum is almost a collectivist, absolutist kind of statement. But you know, I got four or five minutes for a song. There's a little creative license. Let me break, right? You know, context with the other songs matter. It's not an absolutist statement. From many one, we want immigrants who have that philosophy and want to join the melting pot. It isn't appropriation. It's homage. I'm part Irish, German, Italian, Polish. All right. I can't afford it otherwise. Today being May the 4th, May the Fourth be with you, right? Star Wars Day. And as I joked on X, uh, I love it when celebrities are warring, right? Star Wars. I can't pass the bad punch. Well, tomorrow is Cinco de Mayo Day. It's not appropriation if I were to go up to Mexican town in Detroit and celebrate with my Mexican friends. And DEI is segregation and separation in the name of diversity and inclusion. But when you declare black-only dorms or black-only graduations or Latino only, that's not inclusion. That's not that's separatism. We are the most diverse nation

E Pluribus Unum, DEI, And Identity

SPEAKER_01 46:34

and inclusive on the planet that it has ever seen. And why I wrote my e plurus unum, that's why it's our motto the melting pot from many one. We are inclusive and diverse.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Yeah, right. That and and the founders, though the immigration initially was from Europe, it was from different countries in Europe. And as we know, European nations are very different in their cultures and languages. Um, you know, New York used to be New Amsterdam, so um, you know, so they they understood they were a very brilliant man with great uh brilliant men with great foresight. Uh it's amazing how they thought of so much ahead of time. Uh particularly uh the uh electoral college, I find to be the most brilliant thing that you would, of course, at first.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

We are not a mobocracy, we are a constitutionally limited republic. And the 17th Amendment, I want repealed the bastardization of the checks and balances. They were never to be direct elected like the House was, separation within the Congress. Senators are supposed to represent the rights of the states and therefore come and be appointed by the states. We've destroyed that, the left has destroyed that. I want that repealed. But speaking of bad jokes, King back to King Charles. I love when he was joking with Trump and he said he said, Well, Trump, you said if it wasn't for the US, we'd all be speaking German. But if it weren't for the English, you'd all be speaking French. I just about fell off by care. That is it's a true, yeah, right? In England and France and the New World were battling, so indeed, we might, if not breaking from England, we might have otherwise been breaking free of France at the time and speaking French, like Quebecans across the northern border, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Yeah. And and uh yeah, he had some good zingers in his speech. Yeah, and he was actually pretty funny. Yeah, uh, but yeah, and as far as the French are concerned, uh another thing about like uh uh Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, they were all these men were appalled at the French Revolution. They thought it it was an atheistic revolution, they did away with God, and they were in their writings,

Founders, Revolution Lessons, And Limited Government

SPEAKER_00 49:01

they rebuked the French Revolution because it was atheistic, they thought it was ridiculous. Uh, how could you in George Washington himself, how can you have uh a moral society without religion? And as you mentioned earlier, John Adams, yeah, yeah, of course. So, you know, they knew that religion had a place in society. You can't have uh God forbid we have an atheist society. We'll end up, you know, having famines and murdering millions of our people like the Russians and the Chinese. Is that what that and that's what the leftists want, I guess? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Yeah, they fail. That's why the left doesn't want history and civics taught in schools, they want it to repeat as long as they are it's all about them as the ruling elites lording over. It doesn't matter. I call them the commie fashion social. Those three are the same damn thing now. It doesn't matter if if it's one dictator or a Politburo, it's one or a few lording over the many, all left of spectrum governance. They're all for it. Well, time has flown. We've blown past the 30 minutes I usually like to keep my shows at. So, and I will of course put in the notes and on the bottom scroll, churchandstate.com is the website.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Yes, yes, that's correct. www.churchandstate doc, short for documentary.com. Um, and there you can find all the ways to watch it for free. And please.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

I noticed you you two. I watched the trailer. I didn't watch the documentary, but I watched the trailer on YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

Yes, so the film is on YouTube. You can watch it there. Uh, if you type in church and state documentary into the search, it should be number one or top five. And again, the full title is Church and State, Roger Williams and the founding of freedom of religion.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Thank you. And I haven't said your name enough, Andrew Lynn. I'll you know, I've been in politics forever. They say you need to touch an audience seven times, right? So you should repeat a name at least seven times to get it to stick, and I haven't done that. Andrew Lin, no, only two ends. L-I-N-N. And again, that'll be on the bottom scroll for those viewing on the video behind the scenes channel, although, and that's why we speak it aloud for the 40 ish audio only platforms and the benefit of the transcript. Thank you, Andrew, for stopping by.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

Yes, thank you so much for having me. God bless.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Take care, God bless. Love you all.