Philippe Lichtenstein: Innovating Israeli Wines with Mediterranean Flair at Hayotzer Winery

Join us as we welcome the esteemed Philippe Lichtenstein from Hayotzer Winery in Jerusalem, an innovator reshaping the Israeli wine scene. Hear firsthand how Philippe's journey through Burgundy and Corsica has influenced his approach to winemaking in Israel's Mediterranean terroir. Discover the challenges and triumphs he encountered as he transitioned from a focus on mass production to crafting high-quality wines, emphasizing the art of controlling irrigation and collaborating closely with local farmers.

Explore the fascinating nuances of Israel's viticulture as Philippe enlightens us on why Mediterranean grape varietals such as Grenache, Syrah, and Mourvèdre thrive under the region's unique climate. With an insightful comparison to practices from Burgundy and California, we examine how these varietals can produce elegant wines that reflect evolving consumer preferences for lighter options, especially suited for hot summers. Philippe provides an intricate look at vineyard management, sharing his expertise in balancing alcohol content, harvest timing, and the science behind vineyard decisions that lead to exceptional wine quality.

We round off our conversation with a reflection on the delicate balance between tradition and modern innovation in winemaking. Philippe shares his perspective on how time-honored methods adapt to contemporary market demands, touching on topics such as oak barrel aging and climate impact on wine maturation. As we conclude this enriching dialogue, I express a heartfelt hope for safety and peace, inviting listeners to share in this moment of gratitude and subscribe for more engaging discussions in "The Kosher Terroir.

For more information:

Philippe Lichtenstein
Winemaker Hayotzer Winery 

C/O Arza Winery
PO Box 18218
Jerusalem 91181
Israel
Harubit 15, Israel Park 
Shior Adumim
Jerusalem Israel

Phone: 1-700-70-1847 +972-2-5351442
Email: info@arza.biz

Chapters

• 0:09 Kosher Winemaking in Jerusalem
• 11:31 Israeli Wine Varietals and Winemaking
• 21:40 Challenges of Wine Maturation and Harvest
• 34:16 Israeli Wine Production and Quality
• 41:47 Balancing Tradition and Innovation in Winemaking
• 58:11 Praying for Safety and Hostages

Transcript

S. Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. The following episode is a conversation about Hayotzer Winery with its acclaimed winemaker, Philippe Lichtenstein. The name Hayotzer means the creator in Hebrew, and this winery, situated in Jerusalem, is owned by the Shore family, Israel's oldest winemaking family. They established their first winery in the old city of Jerusalem in 1847, making the re-establishment of the country's recorded winemaking history. Over eight generations, the family has expanded their winemaking ventures, with Hayotzer Winery emerging as a quality-focused branch of their Arzah Winery Group.

S. Simon Jacob: 1:12

Born in France, Philippe pursued his winemaking education at the University of Montpellier, a prestigious institution known for its viticulture and onology programs. For its viticulture and onology programs he made. Aliyah immigrated to Israel in 1990, bringing with him a wealth of knowledge and experience from the French wine industry. Philippe began his career at Zichron Yaakov Cellars, one of the country's prominent wineries of the time, and in 2010, he was appointed as the winemaker for Arza Winery and, under his guidance, arza launched the Hayotzer brand in 2015, focusing on producing wines that blend traditional techniques with modern innovation on the road ahead. If you're comfortable at home, please select a wonderful bottle of kosher wine, sit back, relax and enjoy this interesting chapter in kosher winemaking history with this very special winemaker. Welcome to The Kosher Terroir, Philippe. Thank you. Pleasure. It's pronounced Lichtenstein, lichtenstein, lichtenstein, lichtenstein, pleasure, you told me before you were born in Grenoble, france.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 2:26

Yeah.

S. Simon Jacob: 2:27

What inspired your journey into winemaking?

Philippe Lichtenstein: 2:30

You know, because I love the product, I drink wine, and afterward it will be during the studies, because I go to agronomy Yep and I do my studies in Montpellier in Ensa, and there there's specialization for viticulture and oenology. So I do it and began to work in France a little and afterward, in 87, go to Israel.

S. Simon Jacob: 3:00

Okay, you worked in France in wine.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 3:04

Yeah, not a lot. I do some vinification. First I worked in studies in 1984 in Lesignan-Corbière and afterward I do vinification in Threats. I work in Burgundy, in Urigny, in a lab, and I was a counselor for viticulture and oenology in Corsica.

S. Simon Jacob: 3:26

In Corsica? Yeah, were there any particular winemakers or regions of France that inspired you?

Philippe Lichtenstein: 3:33

The Mediterranean region. I know them better. I have not a good knowledge in Bordeaux.

S. Simon Jacob: 3:42

What led to your Aliyah and to bring your expertise to Israel.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 3:47

Oh, what leading. I don't do Aliyah for a while. I only look for a job in Israel in my specialization because it's better for me. So I go to all the winery I think I was in Carmen in 85 and in 87, after they say they don't need me in 87, they call me because they need someone to quality control. They are doing renewing in the winery and they need someone to quality control. Quality control is not so interesting to me but it was a job in wine so I began in quality control.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 4:26

Afterward, after two years, they asked me if I want to go to Zichon Yakov to be a second winemaker. And afterward I was 18 years in Carmel A little more than that and half in Carmel, and I was was winemaker in Zichon Yaakov winery. It's the biggest. It was the biggest in Israel. Now there is nothing. And afterward I go to Arza winery to do improvement of the, to do improvement of the wine. You know because in Carmel we do a very long work to improve the wine. You know because in Carmel we do a very long work to improve the quality, because I think that first in Israel there is no place until the Golan open. Yeah, nobody thinks that there is place for high-priced wine. I price it to be high qualities, but nobody thinks about this. It was only big production of low quality.

S. Simon Jacob: 5:35

Quantity rather than quality? Yeah, okay, were there any challenges that you faced in adapting to the Israeli terroir compared to France or Corsica?

Philippe Lichtenstein: 5:48

There is first, you know, here people are using irrigation a lot, yes, and there is studies from there is. You know? I went to Israel, I think, about two studies from Mahon Ein, the wine institute At this time it was Charles Lange and the studies they do is that grapes have to be irrigated. They proved that in Israel you have to have irrigation. And second, they said that in the summer, when grapes are staying on the vine, you have a degradation of the quality. So people are doing with a lot of irrigation to have big quantity and not to going in the long maturation. In this way you are going to big quantities and low quality, yes, but it takes way. You are going to big quantities and low quality, yes, but it takes time. You know, first you have to control the irrigation.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 6:52

Until now, I have a discussion with a guy about the water. As you know, this year we were in Mitzperemont. I don't know the vineyard, so you have to work with the farmer and he knows. But I think that in any way, the idea that if you are cutting the water too much you have bad result is not right. You know, and people are always putting too much water. I have a lot of discussions with the farmers how to work with less water. We have a Malbec in Ramazirin. Ramazirin is near Kvartavor and in this place, in the vineyard, you have the point where the water is coming inside, and near this point you have a problem because there is not a good distribution. Perhaps not a good distribution, but the water perhaps is going down in some place. So to have the same quantity of water disponible to the vines you have to do differential irrigation. And when the guy goes to check he says this point, that there is a loss of water in this point and it's near the valve. So he opens the valve automatically and the second part of the vineyard is too much irrigated and people are not controlling and they have not the idea that you have to control very precisely your irrigation in order to have good maturation.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 8:36

Because when the vines are too much irrigated you have too much vegetative expression and the maturation goes to be late. And in Israel it's a problem because you have very high temperature and so you have a degradation of the quality. Our problem, you know it depends when, in the beginning of the season, you can put more water, because you have to have a vegetative expression, because you have to have leaves to have photosynthesis. In the second side, in the maturation stage, when you are in the steps of maturation, you have to be controlled of water because in a normal you know, in, like Earth, what I learned in Montpellier, like us, what I learned in Montpellier in vegetal physiology, that you can see as a balance okay. And the maturation there are some inputs that are going to vegetative expression and some inputs are going to maturation. You know maturation.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 9:44

I have a big discussion with one of the pharmacists. You know maturation. I have a big discussion with one of the farmers. You know what maturation. It says that the vine has to be positive, green. Positive is green. The farmer is very happy when he's going in his file and see all this green, going in his file and see all this green.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 10:11

But I say that maturation is an expression of death, because what is going in the vine, in the tree, is giving fruit, because to give his descendants in English, his descendants because they he's the tree, he's thinking that he's going to death to die and so he goes to do maturation in order to have fruits and the vegetative expression is that water, that and water and ammonia okay, well, what was ammonia is going the tree have a very good vegetative expression and if you are cutting and and water and you know all the elements, other mineral elements are good for maturation, to have maturation. So if you have too much vegetative expression and so you will have bad maturation and we want a good maturation and they say not a rapid maturation. But in Israel, in our very hot condition, to have too long maturation perhaps for Cabernet is good, but for other varieties is not so nice.

S. Simon Jacob: 11:31

Okay, first of all, I want to say thank you for wrestling with the English for me. Oh, I try. No, you're doing a great job. Even complicated concepts, you're expressing yourself very well. Your English is much better than you say Thank you, I'm just telling you. So I want you to know that We've been discussing the terroir of Israel and how it impacts the varietals that you grow. So you said for Cabernet, it can handle the longer maturation. What other varietals do you deal with?

Philippe Lichtenstein: 12:08

Okay, the Ayotzer, our policy was to try to go with Mediterranean varieties because we are in Mediterranean terroir here in Israel. So what is the reason? Opposite. You know why in Burgundy they are working with Pinot Noir? Because Pinot Noir have maturation, rapid maturation, because if in Burgundy, no, the climate is going warmer and warmer, but if you see before, in Burgundy, let's say, in October, november, it's very cold, so they have to have grapes that mature early, so Pinot Noir is early. This is the reason, the reason that the Mediterranean varieties are in the Mediterranean area.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 13:14

It's more difficult to understand Because mostly it's giving good quality and big quantity in this area and we try to work with Grenache, syrah, mourvèdre. This is a difficult variety because there is a good expression to giving fruit. So say you have big quantity, you know, and you have, let's say, mourvèdre, mourvèdre. Very difficult variety, very problematic. Sometimes it's not maturing well. We don't know why In 14, we don't do Mourvèdre, because it was absolute fiasco. We wait, wait, wait and have nothing. But Mourvèdre, in any way, is giving a lot of fruit, very good grapes. It's difficult to close the water for the Mourvèdre because all the leaves are going down. It's very sensitive for dryness. Okay, and very difficult to do anything. You know you have the problem with the rootstock, yes, and so you have to Mourvèdre, so you have to move it, you have to give it, let's say, with sufficient water as to control it. You have to cut to have less fruit and there are two possibilities.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 14:36

In Netophar, you know, netophar, netophar, they do, they hunt it very, very strongly. They let five eyes in each, I don't remember, in each vine, I think, and they have less quantity with big grapes. What we do is different. I let we are cutting with one eye in each one and afterward take all the second grapes, you know, in each one and afterward take all the second grapes, you know, in each bud, in each bud you have as it's growing. You have about two grapes In Petit Verdot, sometimes you have four, it's different for the variety but Clusters, okay, clusters, clusters, okay. So we take all the second one, okay, and so we add grapes, because if you are going with less grapes, you have big grapes. So the vine is always doing compensation, okay, when they do in Bignamina, when I was in Caramel, they do a test in Petit Verdot, okay, they have four grapes in each bag and they say too much, so they cut two.

S. Simon Jacob: 15:46

There's four clusters in each bud that grows.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 15:51

In buds grow, there's four clusters, so they cut two and they see that the two left grow like another one. There is always compensation. So the way I see in our day to to have, let's say, a lot of grapes to cut half, but later, as you can't do it late, we do it late because you have no compensation afterwards and it was the way that we worked with the Mourvelle. It's work. It's work In the Grenache mostly you have too much grapes to have good maturation. I think in California, when I speak with a guy in Napa they say that they are seeing the maturation and cut, but they are cutting about 18 bricks. Okay, In Grenache you can't do it because there is so much density of fruit and if you let all the density of fruit, of leaves, when you are cutting, you cut the cluster, you do damage, you damage the other cluster.

S. Simon Jacob: 17:04

So when you're talking about cutting, you do damage. You damage the other cluster. So when you're talking about cutting, you're not talking about harvesting. You're talking about actually cutting to make less clusters in order for the vine to focus on the clusters that you're leaving. Okay, very cool.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 17:21

This is because Mediterranean variety I'm not speaking of Syrah Syrah we are only doing taking shoots in green but not taking down clusters, because Syrah you have about less, about 10, 10.2. So there's a problem. But you know, in Grenache and in Morvedre we have to take out clusters. Mourvedre, we have to take out clusters. This is a problem of Mediterranean grapes. Mediterranean grapes, if they have water and sun, they are doing big quantities. So you have to refrain it and this is a problem of Mediterranean grapes. But you know it's doing all the wine. It's not a strong colored Cabernet, but it's more elegant, more smoothy wine, more good for more food, wine for every meat. It's something different, but you know, in the Israeli market the problem is that people know Cabernet, know Cab and they want Cab.

S. Simon Jacob: 18:23

But I've noticed that the market is changing. People are getting used to, especially in a hot summer, drinking a heavy cab is not nearly as much fun or as nice as drinking one of the lighter wines and it's like a Morvedre. Morvedre is a difficult wine because it's like a Morved.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 18:45

Morved is a difficult wine because you know it's like Pinot Noir. They say that Morved is the Pinot Noir of the South because they have the same problem of Pinot Noir. Pinot Noir when they first, I see what I see in this wine. What in Kibbutz, kiryat Hanavim? The same problem A lot of clusters, big quantities of grapes that you have to refrain, and in maturation it's the same. You know Mourvedre, you have to open the bottle, see what is going on and sometimes you have to do aeration, sometimes to drink it as it. And it's more difficult to wine for the people because sometimes they have not good experience with Mourvedre but because Mourvedre is the wine that you have to work with it and you know, for a new market as Israel it's very difficult.

S. Simon Jacob: 19:35

But I've noticed that the winemakers are getting more accustomed to these varietals and the wine is getting better and better and better each year.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 19:47

Yeah, you know, I began 35 years, no more 37 years, in Israel. When I go in, I speak with Israel. Israel Flamm was wine maker in Richon and taste Egyptian wines. It was something awful. And he said you know, philip, 20 years ago the wine was like this, you know. So we are always improving and I say that from now we always will improve the quality of the wine because there is a great potential in Israel. There is a great potential because we don't know very well. You know, in France, when a guy from Barrels I think this was Radu, no, demtos, demtos go and they say you know, to adapt a vineyard to a Barrels is five years, not less, you can't do less. In Israel, they open a vineyard two years after selling wines like it was the best wine in the world. I think in wine business the time is doing the job.

S. Simon Jacob: 20:51

It certainly is here. It certainly is here to watch. You're the winemaker at Hayotzer Winery, so Hayotzer has a long history. It was part of the Shore family group of wineries, so it has a history that goes back to 1848 or something. Seven, what? 1847. 1847. Sorry, but, hayotzer, each of the wineries has its own vision. Can you share the vision for Hayotzer? What's the vision that you're trying to set it apart from all the other wineries in Israel?

Philippe Lichtenstein: 21:26

Okay, the different vision from Ayatollah. It was to work with, not be a cab winery. We do cab too, but it was not our first vision. Second, perhaps going against the stream, and if you see 30 years before or 40, 30 years before in Bordeaux, the wines as 12.5, 13. No, it's 13.5 and more Because it's a trend. The trend is not to have more alcohol, because in France they are looking for varieties to develop varieties that are giving the same maturation with less alcohol, because they are doing desalcoholization of the wine, because alcohol is a problem, but what you have to have is maturation. So they are going.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 22:19

It was the Penaud way of thinking of the wine. It's two weeks more in maturation to have more maturation. The aim is to have maturation to have more tannin, more taste, more color, more flavor in the wine. Wine will be strong, not because you have alcohol but because going later in maturation is giving automatically more alcohol. Because going later in maturation is giving automatically more alcohol. I think that in first we take against the stream and doing cab, let's say about 30.5 and don't waiting the two weeks more. You know when I'm working, mostly in Dichon area in our best quality Merlot and cabars in Dichon area in our best quality Merlot and Cabas in Dichon area, and always don't go to 25, 26.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 23:12

Sometimes we are harvesting in 25 because between the time I decide that we harvest and we have to have a machine free and we have condition and sometimes taking time, so you have a delay from. You have always to decide before, when, when, to think about. We are not not a big winery and we are working in a lot of area, so we are not controlling in any way. We have always a little one in way, we have always the little one In each area. We have the little one working. So to have a machine, an harvesting machine, I have to command it before. So we have always to do good planification. Sometimes we are changing In our planification, sometimes we are changing okay, but so, and in our planification we are taking that, let's say, 24, 25.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 24:09

We're talking about breaks, right? Yeah, always, you know the sugar, the conception of sugar is the parameter we have the biggest relation with the quality in any way. What you do, what all the checks they do, always the breaks have correlation with quality. Until you are going to after 25, breaks is different, but you know you are doing jam, but always if you are seeking. There is a very big correlation between sugar and quality in the same vineyard. So we are always working a lot to go to very late maturation, okay, and you have more fresh wine, more I say. I say twin-cabin wine okay because it's less concentrated. I know that people in Israel like concentrated wine because they are feeling that they are paying for something you know. But you know you are little against the stream, not a lot, because you can be a lot against the mainstream and living.

S. Simon Jacob: 25:16

You have to sell. You still have to sell wine.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 25:18

Yeah, you know about selling. We do a very, very good white wine two years in barrels, like in Burgundy Otter white. We do it with Viognier and Roussan and we go to Isha Navim, you know, in Tel Aviv and we do testing. Everybody thinks fantastic wine, something special. People don't take the first bottle from the shelf Never, because it's high pricing and it's wine and something different and we don't sell one bottle. We don't know the quantity. We have some barbers Until 2019, until now it's very good wine, but you know you have to sell it. Nobody tastes the wine, not in degustation, professional degustation, everybody giving good notes, okay, but you know, in the public nobody tastes the wine. So you don't sell anything Never. Different things, something different.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 26:29

High-priced wines in restaurants, the restaurant is taking three times the price, so it's so expensive. It's very difficult In very high-priced wines without a good name, very good name, it's to. In very high price wines without a good name, very good name, it's difficult to be doing to be drank. You know it's white lance. You know, very, very shalky, yes, and in Ruggieri, I think only. And we have the same problem In Barbera. The problem to have good Barbera is to control the quantity of the grapes, you know, because Barbera is giving very, very big clusters sometimes. So it's the same problem of control the water in the growing and cut grapes if you have when do you in order to optimize that?

S. Simon Jacob: 27:24

when do you actually go through and cut out some of the clusters? When is the best time to do that?

Philippe Lichtenstein: 27:31

You know we are doing this because we have problems with workers. When in the Grenache and the Morvettes because in the Grenache you have to do it it's about like a big green pea, we cut it Because afterward, when it's about like a big green pea, we cut it because afterward what is going to maturation? If you are cut grown, grown ash, you, you are damaging the other clusters and we do the move it at the same time. The move it can be done afterwards. But you know you have sometimes problem of of workers. In barbara is the same. You know we are cutting in green Before they are changing the color, before in French it's out months because in French it's going in August.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 28:11

You know when the tree is going from vegetative to maturation, the step of vegetating growing and going to the step of maturation, you have three parameters that you can see. First is going to be woody. You know the bud is green, going to be woody. Second, you have the apex. The growing part of the grapes is going down. It's drying and going down. You know, in Israel if you see a lot of vineyards, there's two things the grapes changing color. In white it's more difficult to see, but in red it's very easy to see. This is a three thing Changing of color, the bud is going to be woody and the apex is falling down. You know, and in Israel you are going in a lot of vineyards they are changing color but the apex is continuing growing. So this is not good for maturation, you know, for low quality it's okay For high quality.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 29:19

You have always seen of the kot-kot smicha in Hebrew the apex if it's working, working a lot drying this is because hormona you know all the answers are like in the human body. You are hormones in the grapes and the grapes. The tree is receiving signal and after this is working with them and if there is a signal that is the time to continue to grow, they continue to grow and is not good for the maturation.

S. Simon Jacob: 29:55

I get it. Wow, it's really such a balance. Yeah, it's such a balance between.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 30:01

In 24. We have a problem because in the night the temperature is not going down sufficiently, because most of the production of the let's say quality products, quality components in the vine is at night, at night, and it's better with low temperature. It's why we are going up to, let's say, galil Golan.

S. Simon Jacob: 30:29

Higher oh higher higher. No, no, no, it's perfect.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 30:33

Or going to the desert, you know, because in its pyramid you have low temperature at night and this is a way to have good maturation.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 30:42

But this year's in the south most is, you know, in the north, in in galil, you have the cabernet of good maturation.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 30:51

But in the south, in lachish, in mitzperamon, not only in my, in our vineyard the maturation was not, uh, not so good, not so good and uh, we will see afterwards with the wine. You know, in wine you are surprised because in 83, in Macon region in Burgundy they do white wine for mostly Chardonnay, and this is a wine and they say we have to, this will not be a good wine, we have to sell it very. And they say we have to, this will not be a good wine, we have to sell it very and they sell it in low price to England. Okay, afterwards they say what a pity because the wine in bottle was developing very well and there are people are looking for for for 83. So you don't, you never know in this business sometimes you see that you don't want to keep the wine and you have to see the maturation of the wine in the cellar. But it seems to be that in the south, most in CAB, that 24 will not be so good here.

S. Simon Jacob: 32:00

So I was told by many winemakers that this year the quantities are much lower. The yield is much, much lower.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 32:12

Okay, you know you can't have big quality with big yield, but low yield is not evidently good quality. You know sometimes you have bad yield, low yield, not evidently good quality. You know sometimes you have bad yield, low yield and low quality, all can be. You know they are in cab in the south. They are very, very low yield. But I think what I see we will see afterward, but as I see the grape and the wines, until to know it seems to be low quality too.

S. Simon Jacob: 32:50

Okay, unfortunate, unfortunate. This is a hard year for everybody.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 32:55

This has become a very hard year for everybody, you know in the north we have problems like in English, a thing that is have two things, two types of mildew. I think it's Dornier mildew. You have powdery mildew and Dornier mildew. It's plus more viticola. I think that it's Dornier mildew in English, but I'm not sure and they do damage, a lot of damage, and the people in the north, because of the war, can go as they want to the vineyard to trade them and there is a lot of loss of quantity Because when milieu is going in the cluster in the beginning that's all I go. It's Karenian, you know. But I go in a vineyard and I tell to the grower see and see these rows, see if the clusters you have the grapes you have here is paying the machine and I think about 10% of the rows they don't harvest them Because the price of the grafts are not paying the price of the harvesting machine.

S. Simon Jacob: 34:13

Of the harvesting machine. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Do you have a personal favorite among the wines that you produce? Personal favorite yes.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 34:22

Ah, a favorite. Ah, okay, a favorite of yours, oh, oh, I don't, I didn't in the second way.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 34:29

Okay, sorry, you know. Uh, when I testing the bubbles, always, sometimes you are very depleting because it's not what you, you are thinking that you, you will have at this stage, but sometimes you are going out after a degustation with a very, very, very, very good feeling. You know, and the wine, this is the wine. You know Each wine, I think, each time they're giving, sometimes they have open bottles and you are so, so happy that we see that we do so you have a special favor for this wine. But I think that you have to take each wine. Each wine can give something special. But I think that in Israel there are perhaps two wines.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 35:20

I have a vineyard of Syrah. It's growing, sometimes very, very fantastic things, and from there Petite Syrah. Petite Syrah is very difficult because you can't. When you are waiting for maturation, this is drying and you have nothing to take. So sometimes we are harvesting too early. This is a problem for Petiteizira, because too late is impossible. But I have in 18, in 23, fantastic wine. Something fantastic is developing in. I am not a lot of barbers of Tizira, but developing in barbers is fantastic In 21,. 21 was a fantastic Tizira.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 36:02

You know, sometimes, and you know I remember we do the first Zarit In Carmel. They do the when they're beginning to do high quality wines. We're working with our vineyard in Zarit, cabernet, and the first we sent Barot, it was Schmitta, it was 2001. And I think two, three years ago I opened it. Fantastic, it's until to know, a very good one, and sometimes I'm surprised, you know.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 36:36

So you give this, you have favor for this wine in the same time, because first you do it, let's say food processing. Same time, because first you do it, let's say food processing, let's say well, wines is a part of the transformation of agriculture matter to to food. But you know it's different because of the potential of aging of the wine and the potential of developing most of the of the food products that you do. It's better in the same day. Afterwards it's going down. One is different. You have another evolution and sometimes you taste something. So you remember, and this is giving you the fave for the wine. But I think you know what special wine. I think that the surprise from Syrah and Petit Syrah was the best, you know.

S. Simon Jacob: 37:26

Very cool. Do you have a specific varietal that you like the most the Petit Syrah and the Syrah or is there a varietal that you enjoy the most?

Philippe Lichtenstein: 37:37

I enjoy them most because of the result, you know, because you know Mourvedre is perhaps the same thing. Sometimes the evolution is the possibility of evolution, is so big that they think there's something personal inside. You know, because doing a good cab, you know, this is more or less interesting, I think. In my point of view, it is interesting what we can do from something that does not seem to be the best quality and you work in the vineyard and afterward in the vineyard do something special, you know. So this is personal, but you know our best wine is Cab, nothing to do.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 38:24

The best wine or the best selling wine, I think if you say in all the years, okay, yeah, always, perhaps not always our first wine when you taste.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 38:37

I don't speaking of pricing, but, I think the best if you take each series of one, the best barrels, okay, and you take all the years, the barrels, I think consistently is giving the best result. Okay, that's all. But you know this is not so interesting. It's interesting the Merlot, that one year is nice and you never know why For these years you have so good results. It's more interesting, you know, because you are surprising. You see the evolution that you are not waiting for. You know this is more interesting.

S. Simon Jacob: 39:25

So a lot of what you've talked about on the podcast so far is about the vineyard side. Yeah, what about the winemaking side? Inside the winery there are different people who different winemaking side. Inside the winery there are different people, different winemakers. Some people feel like wine is made in the vineyard and some people say no wine is made in the winery.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 39:50

Most of the people think that 80% of the quality of the wine is in the vineyard. Why? Because this is the basis you know, yeah, why? Because this is the basis, you know you can't what they say in the winery. You always can spoil the wine, you know, because afterward you have to have in the winery to have the expression of the quality you know. So you have to have big, good tanks in a way to have good fermentation and good maceration and you have to have a good lab in order to know when to do all operation, when you have to rake and when you have to sulfate the wine. And you need a good barrel cellar in order not to have less problem in your barrels and with consistent temperature and humidity you have to have good material to operate the wine. Afterward you can choose the techniques you know, with some way doing long maturation, short maturation. This is different. This is a decision, okay. So perhaps in your decision in the winery you have the expression of the quality in the vineyard. You know you have to express it.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 41:03

But with bad grapes never do something special. Perhaps a very nice wine, you know, is more easier in a white wine and in rosé, you know to take, let's say, grapes no, you know to take. Let's say grapes no. So quality and to have a very, very nice and sometimes smoothy white or rosé, because you do the works mostly during the fermentation. Afterward, during the maturation on leaves, you can have a very, very nice product, can have a very, very nice product, but high quality, with possibility of long aging. You have to have very good quality grapes in any way.

S. Simon Jacob: 41:46

Just a couple more questions. Your approach in crafting wine and when you're making wine. There's a traditionalist approach which is like French, and there's a little bit more of a modern approach.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 42:02

There was a traditional approach, because I have a traditional approach because I learned in France and what I worked.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 42:06

You know it's very old vineries as I worked, so it was traditional products and nothing special. But you know, in the market, in Bordeaux too, they ask to have chips, they can put chips. In Bordeaux too, they ask to have chips, they can put chips in. I say no, they can't, because you have to go with the market. And Bordeaux in 1924 is not Bordeaux 40 years ago, because the tradition is changing, because when they do the test and the Californian wines were better notes than the French wine, so they have to do adaptation. You know always, but I think that I have a more traditional approach of the wine. You know, more aeration during fermentation, are you?

S. Simon Jacob: 42:55

using new oak barrels to use.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 42:58

You know we are working both. Always when you are going to barrels and really tasting the best barrels was barrels of second utilization, you know, because you know fresh barrels is too much barrels in the wine, you are losing fruit. Okay, so what we are doing, we are doing a mixing, we are working with barrels like, I think, all the winery. If you are speaking of two years barrels, barrels are doing three cycles with six years and afterwards go out. Perhaps we are taking from to sweet wine or for something special, all barrels, but it's about three cycles in one barrel about. You know, the best quality is half new barrels, mostly French, you know. But when we are going with in the first, the idea of the Lyrica Mediterranean series, what to going is only ten months Celery's, what to going is only 10 months of barrels with only so new, only American, in order to give to the people a taste of wood, because in quality wine they want it, but not too much Afterward because the selling are not going well. So we are going to two years in barrels because the wine stayed and it was good. But I think that in the Mediterranean wines you have not to have too much wood because you will have a woody wine.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 44:31

One of the criticisms about the first high-quality wine in Israel of the boutique the first boutique was barrel wines. You are drinking wood, only Oaky. The first boutique was barrel wines. You are drinking wood, only Oaky. Too oaky, too oaky. So and I have a discussion with one of the owner, without name, that he want to work it was 20 years ago, something like this and he want to put 100% of new barrels. So you know, after what we are doing taking all the barrels out, you know, after what we are doing taking all the barrels out, two years after what you are doing, I tell him that your wines are not to be priced as only new barrels, because new barrels is a factor of price. You know you are new barrels. Let's say you are paying about in this time it is what good barrels? It's about 700 euros about. So you have 3,000 shekels. So you have more than 10 shekels per bottle only in barrels.

S. Simon Jacob: 45:32

Only to price.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 45:34

And so I say you are not fair with your customer because we are giving a so high price wine, so high price because of the barrels and your wines is not so high quality. You know, I think that there is very fancy. You know people in Israel are pricing the wine. How much time in barrels? First, if you see people are writing the time in barrels, but not in what barrels you can put all barrels. Let's say we are buying 400 shekel wine and it's not giving nothing In all barrels you have aging.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 46:22

The aging in barrels you have, let's say, two facets. The first is the wood. The barrels are giving wood, all barrels not giving wood. The second is a very, very slow aeration, to have a very slow oxidation of the wine, right, and this is giving the maturation. So if you have in old barrels, you have only this phase of the maturation and the wood is in aroma and in tannin that you have in the mouth. And you see, you know, I test not all the only the same wines in new old barrels. It's very, very different. Yeah, and they are not waiting. I don't see a lot of winery, they say, this time in new French barrels.

S. Simon Jacob: 47:10

Right.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 47:11

And the people in the mind of the people is the same. You know?

S. Simon Jacob: 47:15

Yeah, they just especially the basic consumers. You know, part of the problem, I think, comes from in Bordeaux. They age in oak for at least 24 months. It's the. You know. Even the minimum is 24 months. Here we don't. I think it's because of the climate and other things. But and I'm not sure, I would like to hear your opinion of it but here if you age an oak for 24 months or 36 months or what have you, it becomes a problem.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 47:50

You know, if you see the no, I don't test very young Bordeaux, but when for the Vinali, they do the young Bordeaux, the primer, yes, okay, they put, they do malolactic in barrels and they put in a very friendly barrels with not a lot of tannin in order to have young wine. Because in Bordeaux, from the vineyard and from the barrels you have a lot of tannin and after one year of maturation it's indriquable, you know, it's so arched, it's indriquable. They have to have the two years of barrels and the one year on bottom in order to be drinkable first. That's why it's indriquable. In Israel you have not the same problem. You have drinkable wine that say no. So the aging in barrels is improving the wine, yes, but your way of thinking is different.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 48:50

I don't see in my winery a lot of wine, you know which. You are putting in barrels three, four months after, rather taking the wood. Sometimes it's very, very hard and if you want to commercial, to sell this kind of wine, it's impossible. But as I taste young Bordeaux after six months of barrels, so much tannin, that I don't know. But I am speaking in the 80s and you can drink it, and so it's different, but I am speaking in the 80s. Okay, and you can drink it, right, and so it's different. You have different grapes, different way of work with wood.

S. Simon Jacob: 49:29

That that those old Bordeaux's, though. Just a question those old Bordeaux's, do you feel like they? They were able to reach higher levels of complexity over time.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 49:47

Or they just became approachable so much, much, much, much later. I think that the approach in Bordeaux is different. You know you are going in longer maturation so you are more easy drinking wine earlier, okay, so it's changing. But I think in this kind of wine not to point a lot of Bordeaux, but good wines, I think in any way aging is aging in bottles. Okay, in the high-price Bordeaux you are not a lot of cashier and it always gives, give you good feeling, good product in is doing good for the wine. The israelian wine is different because you have no lot of experience. You know there is not a lot of wineries are keeping wines in Vinotech a long time and a lot of people test them. You know it's mostly for the winery to see what is going in the long aging and I think that's a losing of experience for long aging. You know, I tell you I open my wines because I have one in the winekeeper, so to see what is going after 20, something like 20 years. And it was very, very, very, very, very nice wine and people mostly are drinking it the same day. This is the first. But let's say, if you're keeping wine five years, I don't see. You know you have to have big possibilities. You know it's not for all the from some special people that cannot. So big wine seller in our house, but I don't think that the way of my. In my opinion, I have to see that people drink my bottles, mostly in, say, one year after, after we release it, you know, because we are keeping in bottles in the vineyard and for a release, I think mostly I think that is this is you know. Mostly I think that is this is you know.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 52:03

In studies they say that 80% of the guys in the same day or tomorrow, they say the winery will be open and this has to be. You know the best quality has to be on the table. You know To say to produce a wine and you say you know the best quality has to be on the table. You know to say to produce wine and you say you know, if you keep with my father-in-law, okay, I have a friend that's selling wine in France, in Strasbourg, and there was a board, I don't remember the name. There's a problem. People are giving to the seller back. Okay, don't remember the name. There's a problem. People are giving to the seller back, okay.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 52:43

So we taste the wine. It was very reduced, very. And we put it in carafe, okay, and I taste it each day. After a week, very nice wine and the owner said what I can do with the bottle. I said you can't say to your customer, you know you have to pull it in the carafe. And after a week he said OK, send it back. You know the wine has to be at the best quality in the table. It's very, very difficult. Sometimes people winemakers want that in the feeling the wine will be better. You have to think always, just a little time.

S. Simon Jacob: 53:22

What's at the table?

Philippe Lichtenstein: 53:23

So and you don't know when. You know, in rosé wine sometimes you have in your storage, okay, good storage, but it's only going to the market one year after and it's not the same one in Rosé. You know Rosé is not. Grenache is good, but Honoré Bazac says that only Tavel can be aging in Rosé, because it's only Grenache that you know. The guy in Côte de Provence says that only Mourvedre, because Mourvedre is not changing Right. But you know, aging rosé is never a good idea, never, never, because you know the point is going oxidated and you are not to wait. Rosé is very fresh and you have to be, because when you do rosé you never know when it's be sold.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 54:21

If you put, if you it's too much reduced and and there is a big problem in rosé in the 80 in hot, it was, um, the best selling in restaurant that they are reduced because they are so afraid of oxidation that they are putting reduced wine on the on the table in the restaurant. You know, I don't. And reduction it's in france they do studies in testing what is the the biggest problem in the wine and and why, and and they, they test wines that and they test and check wines that. Uh, people are giving back to the cell and they say the biggest problem is reduction more than oxidation. More than oxidation because reduction is very bad smells and they don't put the wine in mouth. You know, and when you have this kind of wine you have to protect it for oxidation, but not too much. You know, this is always in balance and sometimes it's going well.

S. Simon Jacob: 55:25

That's happened to me, where I've tasted a wine and I said, oh, this is bad, and the winemaker said, no, it's actually reduction. Give it a little bit of time and it ends up being amazing.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 55:40

Yeah, but you can't say to the customer you know, I say for Vinory without name in Israel I taste the Pinot Noir and so much time it was so hard. I tell the guy, you know, put in the bottle, lock the bottle and it's only opening after 60 years. You know, because you can't drink this. Yeah.

S. Simon Jacob: 56:02

No, you're very pragmatic. You know the word pragmatic. Pragmatic is, we try to be. Yeah, you are. You're very pragmatic and it's true, everybody keeps thinking about these wines over, you know, 20 years or this, and that it's actually what you need to focus on is the table. When the person opens the wine, what are they going to taste, and that's the bottom line with it. Last question when a person opens a bottle of Hayotzer, what do you want them to experience? What do you want them to get out of it?

Philippe Lichtenstein: 56:38

Oh, you know, wine it's only a pleasure. You know they have to be. You know, in wine they have to be a pleasure from the beginning. From smelling the wine, uh, I have no color. For me it's less important, because we are working with Mediterranean varieties, and Mediterranean varieties is not the deep red color. You have good color, not brown wine, but you know a nice color. But color is less important, you know, and what is important is from the first smell until the evolution and until the drinking, all the way, it will be pleasure. Only, I think that is the aim you know to do. When you buy wine is expensive product. Buying a good wine, people are putting at least the minimum is 50 chequers, coca-cola is 7. No, and it's twice the quantity. But in wine people have to have the pleasure of the wine, the degustation and the pleasure of the pairing with the food, because it's symbiosis. You know you have to have more than each wine alone and I think that's the aim. You know, people are very pleased that they drink my wine, that's all.

S. Simon Jacob: 58:10

Thank you. You know you close off every little video broadcast that you do, from Hayotzer with the Hayet, hayotzer with Lechaye Hayotzer.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 58:20

Yes, lechaye, hayotzer Lechaye.

S. Simon Jacob: 58:22

Hayotzer Amen Baruch Hashem. Thank you, thank you very much, thank you.

Philippe Lichtenstein: 58:27

Bye-bye, bye.

S. Simon Jacob: 58:38

This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of the Kosher Terroir. I have a personal request no matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to the Kosher Terwa, please check out our many past episodes.