A Wine Conversation with Joshua E. London

Dive into the world of kosher wine like never before! In this episode, we chat with Joshua E.  London, a seasoned wine and spirits writer, who takes us through the captivating evolution of kosher wines. From its early roots to the emerging trends and flavors of today, Joshua shares his unique insights into what makes kosher wine special, how it reflects cultural identity, and why different flavors play a vital role in the tasting experience. 

Explore the craftsmanship behind every bottle as Joshua uncovers the stories of the winemakers dedicated to creating exceptional kosher wines. We delve into the challenges these artists face and the balance between tradition and innovation they've embraced to cater to modern palates. 

Whether you're a wine enthusiast or just curious about kosher wines, this engaging discussion promises to deepen your understanding and appreciation. Join us for an adventurous sip of knowledge and prepare to expand your palate—your next favorite kosher wine awaits! And don’t forget to subscribe, share your thoughts, and tell us what wine you’re hoping to try next!

For More Information: 

Joshua E. London Wine & Spirits Writer

email: joshlondon246@gmail.com

Phone or WhatsApp: +44 (0) 7547 212870 (UK) / +1 (202) 441-5364 (USA)

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/18oggBToWn/?mibextid=wwXIfr

Instagram: Instagram.com/joshuaelondon

Substack: https://joshuaelondon.substack.com/

Chapters

• 0:10 Simon Jacob introduces the episode
• 0:14 Prayer for soldiers and hostages
• 0:27 Welcome to The Kosher Terroir
• 0:36 Introducing Joshua London
• 0:44 Joshua's background in wine writing
• 0:57 Discussion on kosher wine market evolution
• 1:04 Importance of craftsmanship behind each bottle
• 1:13 Final thoughts and listener engagement

Transcript

S Simon Jacob: 0:09

Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages. Welcome to the Kosher Terroir, the podcast that uncorks the world of kosher wine, one bottle, one story at a time. Today, we're joined by Joshua London, a seasoned wine and writer. Originally from California, Joshua has written extensively on wines, spirits, and cocktails for top publications, offering expert insight into what makes a great kosher vintage. A deep knowledge of the global kosher wine scene. A seasoned wine and spirits writer with a deep knowledge of the global kosher wine scene.

S Simon Jacob: 0:57

In this episode, we explore the evolution of the kosher wine market, emerging trends and what sets certain wines apart. If you love discovering new wines, expanding your palate and diving deep into the craftsmanship behind every bottle, you're in the right place. So pour yourself a glass, settle in, and let's explore the kosher terroir. Welcome to The Kosher Terroir, Josh. It's a pleasure. It's a real pleasure. Pleasure's all mine. Thank you, josh. It's a pleasure. It's a real pleasure. Pleasure is all mine, thank you. Okay, so tell me a little bit about how you got into wine and what you're doing now, but let's start from the beginning.

Joshua London: 1:36

How did you get into this, oh gosh, so it feels like many lifetimes ago now, but so I'm originally from Northern California from. Sacramento, I didn't know that. Oh yeah, small frum community, sure, do you know.

S Simon Jacob: 1:57

Steve Fishbein.

Joshua London: 1:59

Yeah, when we first met we did a little bit of this Jewish geography, but it was right at the start of the Rothschild dinner thing in.

S Simon Jacob: 2:05

New York Right in New York, yeah.

Joshua London: 2:08

So, steve, in fact even many more moons ago the fish finds, when they first moved to Sacramento. So my father, Olav Hshalom, who was the chazan. It was a small pond, he was a big fish. He's one of the folks, along with the Rav, who helped McCarev, Steve and Yvette. Wow, I'll bring them more into the fold. Yeah, and I remember all the kids growing up.

S Simon Jacob: 2:40

Wow, very, very small world. All right, so tell me a little bit about your background. Where did you start, how did you get into wine and who decided to sort of?

Joshua London: 2:49

roll the dice and have been attempted making some kosher wine. It was, I can't recall. Off the top of my head now, I think it was Sonoma grapes, but they were making it in Davis, California.

S Simon Jacob: 3:17

Yeah, uc Davis yeah.

Joshua London: 3:18

Yeah, In fact that's where I did my undergrad was UC Davis, and all of the Israeli wine folk who would come through, if any were Dati, they came to the Sacramento community. That time I met Shiki Rauschberger. I've known the Rauschberger family a long time, From his time there when he was doing the research on the Voschel and all that and anyway. So friends of the family you may know, you probably know Yitzi Applebaum.

S Simon Jacob: 3:48

Sure.

Joshua London: 3:49

So Yitzi and a few partners did a kosher wine. It's now a pretty mediocre, unremarkable Australian wine, teal Lake, ok, but when Teal Lake first began it was a california wine, made it at davis. Uh, it was um. So it was yitzi applebaum. Yitzi and hilda applebaum. Um, uh, doctors, uh, isroff and huntley married, riff isroff and art huntley. And there was one other partner who was not jewish, whose name escapes me this moment, and back then this is before the industry was as big and before the kashas industry was as big and as professionalized. And so basically they would, you know, grab the handful of Shoma Shabbos, folks from Sacramento and sort of push them into the winery. My father did, a bunch of people did it. I was in Yeshiva High School at the time, but every time I came back I would be press ganged into the winery and so I began as a seller, essentially in a custom crush type facility.

Joshua London: 5:01

The Rav HaMachshu was a Rav. Shlomo Rosen was now in Chicago, but he was a long, long time Rav of Sacramento and I think I think it was under the OU, although I know I have some old labels, pictures of old labels. But anyway, he was the actual Rav on the ground and essentially the one making it and it was Pinot Noir. It was actually fabulous. At one point they did a rosé, a Pinot Blanc Pinot Rosé, which was also fabulous. Distribution was challenging and eventually they sold the label to Royal, who then kept the artwork. I think it was Rivker, I think she actually drew it, so they kept the name. They kept a version of the artwork, sold off all the stock, I think through Trader Joe's, for, you know, two bucks. It was like a kosher twoher two buck chuck regionally, very locally, so everyone bought it up and that was like the wine du jour till it ran out. Then I think it was a year or two of nothing before they moved it to, at the time, norman's wines in australia for like bulk australian wine. I think they still release stuff in that category, maybe even some reserve.

Joshua London: 6:24

I stopped drinking the, the australian teal like, a long time ago, but the original one was actually very nice. So at any rate I caught the bug then, wow, before I was legal to drink it and also so growing up in Northern California. So you know, all the wine personalities that either were in kosher or dabbled or were supportive of kosher were sort of people I got to know. You know so Ernie Weir, craig Winchell, craig, even more than Ernie, only because at some stage Ernie sort of upgraded the hashkacha. But there was a brief period where some people drank it, some people didn't that kind of thing, but my family, my father Elvishon, was always very supportive of all of this stuff. There was a mainstream winery in Napa that was owned by the Jewish Shaskali family out of Languedoc and they did a kosher run for a couple of years Mount Maroma and Mount Madrona and we used to drink that.

S Simon Jacob: 7:35

I remember seeing bottles of that.

Joshua London: 7:36

I remember seeing bottles of that. It was actually excellent as well, and nothing was that expensive back when. And nothing was that expensive back when. This was also the days when Bob Weinstock, robert Weinstock, was making Weinstock wines himself before he sold it to Royal, and he was actually making fabulous wines. They used to have this Chenin Blanc. That was really six times better than the price Right.

S Simon Jacob: 8:04

I remember them being super quality at a very reasonable price.

Joshua London: 8:09

Yeah, that's right. And there was a sort of thing. You know, folks in the industry who again either weren't themselves firm or maybe not even Jewish, but were highly supportive, were generally supportive. Dan Berger used to write for the LA Times. He used to, you know, give positive reviews. The Cordy brothers, which were supportive of kind of ethnic and other you know sort of more out there wines and other you know sort of more out there wines, cordy had a big influence on a lot of the kosher producers just by being supportive, helping to open doors, helping to make connections. You know it was a smaller world, less corporate in many, many respects. Some of it still is that way in Napa, but anyhow.

Joshua London: 9:07

So I kind of grew up with all that and it wasn't until a little bit later that I kind of realized, um, how uh, how rich the experiences were, um and uh. And it was many years later that I started writing professionally about it. So I went from California to swell for a bit and then back to California, then graduate school, I went to University of Chicago and it was while in grad school that I started writing professionally, writing professionally, and basically I just sort of realized I had a facility for writing that was just slightly better than my peers, but enough. And initially I was doing mostly politics and stuff like that. But so I had a whole like at the time my writing was more politics and kind of cultural commentary and that kind of, even though I was a kid At the time. My writing was more politics and kind of cultural commentary, even though I was a kid.

Joshua London: 10:08

But I come from the American Jewish school of thought where, you know, everyone in the world is entitled to my opinion. I love it. I'm tempered a bit now, and even more so by politics. It's a blood sport of a different nature than it was when I was growing up, um, but at any rate so, uh, um. So I became sort of a professional writer, um, as a sideline I was always doing other stuff too. And then, um, once I moved to Washington DC after graduate school, uh, and after I was married. I was married. I married my wife in 2002. So it was around 2000. I think three or four that I first started writing about wine, kosher wine and spirits, and there was a local. It became a national thing but there's a local paper called the Washington examiner.

Joshua London: 11:10

And now it became a big chain with examiners all over the place, and but at the, at that exact moment, it was basically just a local paper and the the wine guy for it, who's you know Jewish, never wanted to touch anything kosher whatever. I had met him through someone else and I asked him oh, what are you going to be reviewing for Passover, right? So it's the one time of year. And he says nothing. And I'm like, oh, that's not good. So I contacted the editor and I said, look, I, you know, I nominally know the wine guy. I know he's not going to touch it for Passover. I said you have a sizable Jewish community. Can I write the piece for Passover? Sure, so I did. They loved it Because they had a regular wine writer and at the end of the day, there wasn't the market for a regular kosher wine column.

Joshua London: 12:07

I ended up doing a cocktail column Cocktails, spirits, food, occasionally for the weekend section. I ended up with a weekly column where I was basically doing like storytelling about cocktails, the background, the history, different recipes there's a handful of cocktails that have their history in DC, and so I would go, you know, sort of like the Army Navy Club, and the photographer would come and so I was having fun with it. I was a very tiny, minor, not even celebrity, but a minor figure in the drinks world in DC. Very tiny, I mean, you know, my stature is almost infinitesimal, but amongst them they knew me. Um and uh, and then from that, let's see around. The same time, um, kosherwinecom, which back then was, uh, hungarian kosher foods in Chicago, uh, they had just started uh, sort of revamping the website and getting people to uh do reviews of the wines and I, and and my friend Gamli O'Connor is also a wine writer Um, uh, we started just uploading our notes, you know of the wines Because, like, it was an easy way to keep track of our notes, you know, without having to be too pretentious about having you know notebooks or this or that. You know it was early days.

Joshua London: 13:37

Well, so, in short order, I'm a bit of an insomniac, so when I would have dead time I would just start uploading these things. All of a sudden, I had something like 500 wines reviewed across the price spectrum, and so suddenly my name was like people all over the place would email me out of the blue and say are you the same one who does this? What would you recommend? Et cetera, et cetera. Same one. Who does this? What would you recommend, etc. Etc.

Joshua London: 14:08

And um, dan kush uh, who at the time the kush family owned hungarian kosher foods. He ran, um, a wine of the month club through hungarian, through kosherwinescom, uh, and he had a newsletter and he needed someone to write the newsletter at some point. And I and here I don't remember the history, if, uh, if david rocker was doing it first or if rocker took it over from me, I just don't remember, um, and I maybe rocker knows, or but um, but at some point I started writing the newsletter, not under my name, just, you know, just writing it for them. And for that I needed to research, I needed to know information about the wineries and at this stage of the game, the only way there was any information was whether or not the individual winery doing Gokosh Uran had a marketing department and decided to do anything.

Joshua London: 15:03

Royal wasn't on top of it outside of the Herzog label, maybe a couple of Israeli ones top of it outside of the Herzog label, maybe a couple of Israeli ones. And I was pushing a lot of stuff that I found interesting and that reached my price point for Kirsch and that he could get enough supply and through that I became very friendly with the Royal Wine Corp marketing people. At some stage I moved on. I can't remember exactly why I left the newsletter. At some stage it was, I think, partly maybe we were running out of information on the wines. I had sort of tapped the interesting ones and then Royal didn't have any information and the wineries. This was early days. The websites weren't so information heavy. So at some point and certainly no internet.

Joshua London: 15:49

Yeah, I mean this was.

S Simon Jacob: 15:51

The internet was really low.

Joshua London: 15:52

It was low. It just wasn't as user friendly, certainly as now, and everyone's computers were like dial up or whatever, you know, like everything was slower, but and then. So let's see, this is probably I'm making up the times, but it's something like maybe 2009, 2008, 2009, something along those lines. At some stage my cocktail column came to an end because the editors changed, the examiner got bought out, became a much larger national thing thing and essentially I was dropped. I had a bunch of other people, um and one fell swoop and uh, then I started, uh, doing some freelance writing. Uh, and at some stage I became the weekly columnist for the Washington Jewish Week, a mantle that our friend you know, jules Polonetsky. Sure, jules now has that column. He's doing a great job. Jules is an older neighbor of mine from Potomac. He's a good friend. That's one of his columns.

Joshua London: 17:02

I had that column and then my friend, gamliel Kronemer, had a regular gig with the Jewish Week in New York in the print edition and they were just launching their website like a food and wine website, and so I started writing heavily for the website Again, sort of ended up with a weekly column and periodically also for the print edition, and this was I don't remember the exact year, but at some stage they began an annual wine magazine, the Krippesach thing, and so I became very involved in that. I became a judge a little bit later in the process. The whole competition was basically Yossi Horowitz I don't know if it was an invention. I think it was an invention Either he, the whole competition was basically Yossi Horowitz.

Joshua London: 17:46

I don't know if it was invention. I think it was invention. Either he came up with the idea or he professionalized it for them. I don't remember, he'll tell you. He remembers, but he and City Wanderer guys, steve Dorff and folks like that, they began it, gamliel. My memory of this is he became a judge maybe the second or third year in and they kept inviting me but you know, it just wasn't practical. And then by the fourth or fifth year the publisher said we'll pay for you to come up and stay in a hotel. I said okay, and then I became a judge, but the whole time I was writing for them. So you know, by the time that, just before COVID rolled around, when we finally met in person at that Rothschild dinner in New York, that was probably the height of my very relative name recognition in this niche. And then COVID blew the whole thing up.

S Simon Jacob: 18:50

Well, it did in some ways and didn't in others.

Joshua London: 18:55

It evolved.

S Simon Jacob: 18:56

It totally evolved.

Joshua London: 18:59

But for me, my column in the Jewish Week in New York folded it's sort of back as an online thing but all different people but they never did reach out to me and I think I never heard of it. I tried emailing the new crew and never heard of this thing. So, like my regular writing, gigs evaporated.

S Simon Jacob: 19:21

What about the link? What?

Joshua London: 19:22

about the link, so the moment the Jewish Link started up. So Elizabeth Kratz is a longtime friend. I knew her. Actually, I first met her brother, who sadly passed a few years ago. He was finishing his PhD at University of Chicago, just as I was entering University of Chicago, and he and his family were friends with my brother who lives in Chicago. And through Robert the brother, I met Elizabeth. She was working on Capitol Hill at the time.

Joshua London: 19:55

I think it was Pombo, congressman Pombo, and she was like had a whole career on in politics and you know um and uh, when I, when, when I reconnected with her in dc, uh, I and gamley, all a couple others, um, helped sort of cultivate for her a set, a love of wine.

Joshua London: 20:20

I won't take credit beyond the spark, it's all the rest of it's, all her talents, but we used to have very fun wine tastings and stuff in DC with a nice little heva for this, for this shtick. So yes, I've known Elizabeth a long, long time. So when she, when, when the Jewish link took over effectively from the Jewish week, she also always invites me to come up and be a judge. It's just again, it's just not practical in terms of the distance, but I've been writing for them from day one, just basically just a magazine. I think she's encouraged me to write much more off and on. I think now she probably has an embarrassment of riches of people who write, which is nice. So I've reached that stage where my name seems to be recognized by some. By others it's more of a sounds familiar, and there's plenty of people who have no idea who I am, which is perfectly fine too.

S Simon Jacob: 21:17

So what prompted the move to the UK, to the UK.

Joshua London: 21:25

So COVID. Covid was an interesting time period In Washington. So I was living in Potomac, maryland, sort of a Washington suburb, lovely community, very nice area just outside of DC. Well, when COVID struck, the politics of COVID, particularly in DC, was even more toxic than coronavirus and a lot of different people handled it in many different ways. A handful of people remained level headed and and good, and many, many, many panicked and it brought out, shall we say, their worst traits, including, you know, in some cases, people of either nominal or official leadership capacities.

Joshua London: 22:18

I kept saying to Anna like, look, our jobs are now remote, we can do this from anywhere in the world. Why don't we find some place where, a there's family a little bit closer and B, maybe we can find Jewish schooling? That's not online, you know, my son was essentially eating crayon stage, so to do that remotely is silly. And at that time the school, because of the politics of corona they were talking about in the of Corona they were talking about in the early stages they were talking about. You know, if they ever reopen to you know, and then kindergarten would be six feet apart, then you'd have like a little, not quite a cage, but you know.

S Simon Jacob: 22:57

A plexiglass box.

Joshua London: 22:58

Yeah, it's like I'm going to pay, you know, close to $30,000 a head for this. This is ridiculous.

S Simon Jacob: 23:05

Right.

Joshua London: 23:05

So and it wasn't until I want to say it was maybe Shavuos, it was the basic, it was the ha-game of like no guests, no, nothing that helped convince my wife that we did need to move on. And I think it was post-Shavuost that she finally said you know what? This is ridiculous. Also, you know, we didn't know when we'd ever see my in-laws again. Thank God they're in good health, but they're older. And you know, it was like it just didn't make sense for our kids. It was just it was too, you know, sterile an environment. So finally we decided to explore the options. We came to England thinking to get to London, thinking this would be, you know, maybe a six-month experience. Like you know, wait out COVID, essentially Long story shorter. Now, basically, we stayed, we're still here and it's been a great move for the family. My kids, who don't really remember America, pine for it, but you know, just because it's other.

Joshua London: 24:19

But the only thing that amongst the things that transitioned was professionally, that amongst the things that transitioned was professionally. Until that time, my day job was I was a lobbyist for various Jewish groups Israel lobbying basically and once remote work was no longer the method of the day, that was untenable to maintain that kind of position. I would jump back and forth a little bit and the the January 6th stuff in DC and the politics around that kept the Capitol shut for even longer than Corona. So that allowed me to hang on to that job for a bit. But at some stage you know enough. So I let my boss know I wasn't coming back and now we moved on. We've sort of been involved a little bit in the local scene with Kedem Europe, which is like the royal family here, and a couple of the other. You know folks. It's a much, much, much smaller market but it's a vibrant community.

S Simon Jacob: 25:29

Well, they seem to you know. I'll tell you something. The Ketam team that has the wine club in the UK and Europe, the refined wine club that is really incredibly well run. They always have the best product of any club, any wine club anywhere in the world. I'm always super impressed with them.

Joshua London: 26:00

Well, they have a fabulous portfolio, as you know, for every iteration of the Royal Kedem Herzog family. You know they have, bar none, the largest kosher portfolio of any one you know group and with tremendous variety and some amazing quality. I don't know who invented the club, I don't know which of them came up with it. I believe it's currently run by Jahnke Herzog, the son of Shia Morris, who's the head of Kedem Europe. His son currently runs it. I don't know if he came up with it or Shia or somebody else, but they they run it very, very well.

Joshua London: 26:49

And because of the funny bits you know related to the three-tier system in America, they have a lot of American members Cause I guess I don't know if they ship it I mean, I know they ship it there. I don't know if most of the members I mean I know they ship it there. I don't know if most of the members get it shipped or if they pick it up as they pass through London for business, but apparently they have a very large subscription base in America and I guess it's just easier. So, like the Herzog Winery in California has a wine club, but because of the distribution networks it only makes sense for people who are within certain states or whatever, and so Refined Club is like, I think, is the club du jour, so it's multiple countries and you know, and they seem to be very good about just giving people variety and quality. Yeah, it's a good operation and they seem to be very good about just giving people, variety and quality and, yeah, it's a good operation.

Joshua London: 27:51

Have you ever tasted non-kosher wine? Yes, okay. So some years ago when I was first sort of becoming professional about it, when I was still in Chicago, I had extensive conversations with Dayan there passed away, but he and this was an area of expertise so wines and related issues and actually from him I got a Heter to taste and spit. The person who gave me the Heter was Rolf Gedalia Dov Schwartz, is that so? And so in the early days I did a lot of educational tasting in educational settings. You know I would go to a trade show and a lot less these days. I feel like at this stage I have a pretty well-educated palate in many respects. I still sometimes will taste the spit if it's truly. I mean taste and spit Sam Yenam. If it's something I've never had and I just read about it, I want a sense of really what it is, but very sparingly, no.

S Simon Jacob: 29:00

I'm curious because that really frames questions that I have for you as far as that's concerned. We've just gone through a number of trade shows, specifically in London KFWE London and also… the Kosher Wine Show. The Kosher Wine Show, okay, so anything interesting.

Joshua London: 29:24

Lots of great and interesting new stuff. Just to take it first with KFWE, which I think this was like the 19th show, maybe or 20, something like that. I don't remember off the top of my head but it was. This was like the third or fourth one I've been to in London and it was phenomenal and it was a packed house I think it was over 1,000 people, but it's hard to tell a little bit but really, really packed. And so it's all the Kedden portfolio. But they have some astounding wines coming through.

Joshua London: 29:57

I don't know if you've yet tasted the new winemaker, david Galgazan. So he's only a couple of years in winemaker. David Galgazan, so he's only a couple of years in, I mean. So he's new in the sense that I think this is the first iteration of wines where he's been more in control in terms of his style, you know, breaking free of the formula stuff a bit. So Joe Herleman, you know, was an unbelievably talented winemaker and a great guy, super mensch, and David had big yeah, real mensch. So David had big shoes to fill and he's filled them well, he's I. So you're talking about the Esaud.

Joshua London: 30:44

So actually across the board. So Yassod is like Nunu, but all of the wines that he makes, which is basically the whole lineup, many of them he's begun to sort of tinker with and make changes, some of them subtle, some of them a little more so, but they're all a step up in quality and distinct. You can taste them. Two of the wines in particular that so not as high as the Yersodan price-wise, but the they have a new sort of reserve Chenin Blanc Unbelievable David. He had a vision to take the Chenin that they grow there and just kind of take it to a different place. So it's still distinctly a New World wine. But he had in mind essentially to go to the Loire, to Sauvignier, which is a particular region that makes a very particular style of Chenin, and he's basically channeled it in ways that are just astounding. The wine is really good.

Joshua London: 32:06

I had previously Joseph Herzog or Mati Herzog from the winery had come through London and they did a tasting. So I had sort of tasted all the Açodes and the Schennen and the Reserve Pinot, which are also incredibly good, and a handful of others. But to taste them again at KFWE and in some instances, like with the Schennen, they do both the Mavushal and non-Mavushal, and I was able to kind of taste them back to back. Just an amazing wine, I really. I think. I think if people give it a chance they'll fall in love with it. It's just, it's. It's a there's a complexity, a weight in the mouth, a just so unbelievably food friendly, and it's just, it's a different. It's again, it's still distinctly California, but very much channeling the soul of Loire, of Sauvignier, and I think it'll become. It's a little bit pricey, but I think it'll probably become my house white because it's just to me it's really astoundingly good.

Joshua London: 33:19

The Esodes are amazing, but they're so young, I mean, frankly, it'll be several years. Yeah, right now they're just a bit too inky. The Pino, the Sonoma Pino they had the reserve Excellent. The Sonoma Pino, they had the reserve Excellent. Their sort of champagne method Bubbly is even better now than the previous. So, like across the board, herzog, they get better every year generally, but they're even better. I think it's a real qualitative step up, and so all those were good. There was a whole variety of upscale French and mid-level French that were excellent. Probably the one that got the most attention is the Philip LaHardy line of Burgundies.

S Simon Jacob: 34:18

People are hot on Burgundies right now because we haven't. We've been Burgundy, starved for so long.

Joshua London: 34:27

Yes, and now there's an embarrassment of riches and the LaHardy wines are excellent, really outstanding. They had a close of Vujo, which is super, super expensive but drinking incredibly well now but will get much better. But to me, the Alos Corton that they had exceptional right now, again a bit pricey, but if you can afford it, really fab. The base level Burgundy I thought was excellent For the money. I actually prefer that to the Premier Crew version of it. With a little bit of time in bottle that'll reverse and the Premier Cru will become better. But in terms of drinking right now, the quote-unquote bog standard one fab, really really good.

Joshua London: 35:28

Really exciting Drapier champagne they released a vintage champagne Really really nice. It's a bit different from if you're into that Champagne house, which I love, but I do love Drapier and Michel Real Mench, san Hugo it's a really good family. In general, they've been going for low dosage drier, drier, drier. And this 20, I think it was 2018 vintage is a bit higher dosage than we've seen from them of late. So, depending on your palate, it may come across as a little bit sweeter than you've seen from them of late. So, depending on your palate, it may come across as a little bit sweeter than you've come to expect from them, which some people like. Some people tasted it at KFWE and were like sweet. It's not a sweet wine, but it's a very relative thing. But I think that that'll actually sell better.

S Simon Jacob: 36:31

to be quite honest, I think there's a group of people who are really adverse to any type of sweetness coming across the palate. But in the general public, I think the general public it will move much better than the acid drug.

Joshua London: 36:50

And you know it's funny. Just as an aside. If I'm boring, you let me know. Just as an aside. So there's a. This is not just kosher. Right Across the wine world there is a strong bias by aficionado types.

Joshua London: 37:14

You know, wine mavens against sweetness in wine unless it's. You know, dafka, a dessert wine like a sauterelle or whatever. And you know it's just, it's not right and it's not fair. I say not right because that's not to me. That's not how you approach wine. That's not what it's not fair. I say not right because that's not to me. That's not how you approach wine. That's not what it's about. It's about the grapes giving you the best that they can give you. In some cases you do want to see it across the style range Riesling it's a shame that increasingly nobody wants any sweet Riesling.

Joshua London: 37:55

I mean, I love dry Riesling. It's a shame that increasingly nobody wants any sweet Riesling. I mean, I love dry Riesling. Don't get me wrong. I love a sweet Riesling and I love every gradation of the Riesling. And Chenin Blanc is the same. I love every gradation. And so there some wines where a certain natural sweetness is not just acceptable. It's proper, right and to convince people that, if they like sweet, that they're unsophisticated. It's just not fair To me. It's just not and it's because it has nothing to do. It's nothing to do with sophistication or lack of sophistication. It's a preference, it's a taste preference.

S Simon Jacob: 38:40

It's a subjective preference.

Joshua London: 38:42

It's very subjective and not that long ago, in the big scheme of things, even the top wines of the world, even recognized names that are now, nobody would ever think like Cheval Blanc, nobody would ever think of as a sweet wine. Not that long ago, high residual sweetness was the, was the fashion Right. And so across Burgundy, bordeaux, the Rhine, you had, you had many more wines that had that to modern palates would be too sweet, and they were the wines. They were. You know the fashion right. So, like anything, there's um, there's the storytelling version of the product, and then there's the actual history and and you know, and all commercial wines, you know they want to appeal to the market. And then there's the actual history and all commercial wines. They want to appeal to the market and the market wants more dry, they go more dry. So all of that said, sweetness in wine is part of the human condition. It's right and proper at times.

S Simon Jacob: 39:53

I always wonder whether the people who are you know, it's the people with the voice like the squeaky wheel gets, you know, gets the oil. I wonder whether the squeaky wheels within the wine industry who have the ear of the wineries, are the people who are saying, you know, oh, I don't want any sweetness, or I want a lot of acidity, and the trouble is then the market is really not attuned to that. You know, I kind of wonder with consumers. A little bit of residual sweetness goes a long way to convince people that wine is something that's reasonable for them. Where I'm hearing like a lot of people will say to me oh, I don't drink wine, I don't drink wine. I have a cocktail but I don't drink wine. And it's totally because of this, because I think of wine as being some acidy, non-sweet.

Joshua London: 41:04

Well, I think it's a mix. Some of it is because the wines that they're told they're supposed to love they don't love. It doesn't fit their flavor. And I think a lot of it also is the sense that to be into wine requires sort of an intellectual commitment. At the end of the day, it's a beverage, you know, like Coke, a hundred percent. At the end of the day, it's a beverage you know like.

S Simon Jacob: 41:34

Coke.

Joshua London: 41:35

A hundred percent, and particularly wine professionals lose sight of this all the time, and it's I get it and I'm not blaming anyone. You know, a wine geek shouldn't feel bad about being a wine geek either.

S Simon Jacob: 41:51

A hundred percent.

Joshua London: 41:56

But the pretentiousness factor keeps a lot of people away. Um, again, it's across the wine world in in uh, in the firm world, uh, perhaps even more so. Right, there's plenty of people when, uh, when they're done either with their professional jobs or yeshiva, you know whatever like they don't now need they don't, they don't want another graduate-level course, just to be able to have wine with their meal and whiskey, in fact, all the spirits are so much more approachable in that sense, because you don't I've tried to explain this to people in slightly different contexts, mostly my wine geek friends when they say, in wine, speak. When you say, oh, it's very approachable. So to a non-wine person, they'll look at you funny, like, like, what does that?

S Simon Jacob: 42:44

mean it's a liquid. You drink it. What do you mean? It's got to melt Like what are we talking about?

Joshua London: 42:50

It doesn't mean approachable you pour it.

Joshua London: 42:51

What does that mean? Approachable? You pour it, you drink it, and sometimes wine geeks when you ask them about it like they, you know, they kind of go into this reverie of you know and all the kind of nomenclature pops up and it comes out as gobbledygook to the uninitiated. And I always try to explain that. Look the uninitiated, that's the market. Right, you want to sell, not to wine geeks, you want to sell to people, normal human beings. Wine it's just like food. Because it's food, it's supposed to be part of everyday life. To me, a successful wine when I say it's approachable, it means you don't have to have ever tasted anything like it before to enjoy it. You don't have to. It doesn't have to age for 20 years in a cellar before it's just coming into it. It's a good wine that fits all the different categories. It's refreshing, the alcohol is just enough to make you happy, not enough to where it's burning or or you know where it feels hot remarkable.

Joshua London: 43:59

Ultimately, you want a wine that isn't with no one element is remarkable. You just want it where you go. Oh, that's nice or yummy or whatever. That's really what you want in a wine. The wine geeks will like me. I mean, I'm a self-confessed wine geek of the highest order. I'll sit there and ooh and ah for 20 minutes over this element of that, but I'm not going to bore anyone else with it, unless they're into it. For anyone else I'll just say, oh, it's really nice and so approachable wine means it's good drinking right now. Pop and pour. If it's not pop and pour, then it's not yet approachable. It's as simple as that. And so the one thing about the KFWE style tastings and again, this is as true in the Trave market. I was going to ask you if there's a difference.

S Simon Jacob: 44:47

Is there a notable difference between the kosher market and the Trave market? With return to how they're approached, but also consumer behavior price points, trends.

Joshua London: 45:00

Yeah, there's a whole variety of differences. So just to finish the thread of the KFWE-style tastings, so the two things that I find, or the three things I find that sort of annoying about tasting in that context is many wines, particularly as you go higher up the quality spectrum, they're released to market early because they need a return on the investment but the wines in many respects do need time and bottle before they're really ready to drink. So that style tasting traditionally is a trade tasting, not a public tasting, because the trade understands that, oh right, we lay down stocks of this and in four years time you know we'll sell that or you know whatever. Two years depends on exactly what you're tasting. But there'll be some wines that you bring to market and instantly move off the shelf and others that are for the people who are building their cellars out and need a little bit more of this or that region. And it's the understanding that, oh, lay it down for three years, two years, five years, ten years, because right now it's not pleasurable. Years, 10 years, because right now it's not pleasurable when punters you know, when consumers come in, they're expecting, I think quite rightly from their vantage point right, they just spent X amount, $100, 100 pounds, whatever. Like I want to taste the best of what you got right now.

Joshua London: 46:31

And usually they're very disappointed because the most expensive wines aren't ready to drink right now, even though it's being offered right now on the table. A, b, at home, people will be drinking it with food and friends, as part of a meal. All good wine fits into a meal. It's part of cuisine at table, it's part of everything. And to just taste, you know, walk around and go oh, we get a taste of that. It's ink or it's or it's not. You know it needs more time, it's not yet totally together, and so even if a consumer can instantly recognize, oh, it's a, it's a quality wine, it can instantly recognize oh, it's a quality wine, it's all the different elements, it's just enough to recognize that. But at the end of the day it's not ready to drink now. So it's still an unsatisfying experience for a lot of people.

Joshua London: 47:24

In the kosher market it's a little bit worse only because, depending on the level of Thrimkite, a lot of people are coming in and they're thinking kiddish. You know, can I glug back, you know, four ounces in one sitting of this right? Will this give me pleasure when I consume Arbor Coises and I'm just downing it out of a Silver Becher, even if they upscale, use a glass becher. Well, a lot of wines don't work at that level. You know, try chugging a Coke, a whole can of Coke in 30 seconds. It's not so pleasurable either. There are wines that do that and that do it very well, but it's just that it's a slightly different context.

Joshua London: 48:14

And it's one of the things about the kosher market that people outside the kosher market don't get professionally and I think people within the market sometimes lose sight of and consumers often feel kosher consumers often feel like they're being like cheated is a little bit strong, but feel like it's at their expense. They sort of recognize that it's their captive audience. Right, they need kosher, they can't drink not kosher. So there's always a sense. Same in restaurants and other, where people are like well, there's no competition. That's why we're stuck with this. That's why the pricing is this there's a lot of silly notions that people have in their heads about what things ought to cost At the end. With the pricing, you know they're trying to figure out A how to make a profit, but B how to not lose their shirt. So you know there's a little bit of guesswork but at the end of the day it's all still market forces. That part's no different. That part's no different. More competition would help improve the dynamics of the price structure, but the basic dynamic is the same. But so a lot of people come in and think, oh, I'm stuck, you know, having to pay four times the price of the non kosher version of this wine. And it's just because I'm trapped, because I keep kosher, and I'm like no, that's in most instances. The markup is a reasonable maybe 40 percent because it costs more to do. It costs more for the winery to do a lot more in some instances it's just as a quick aside we mentioned earlier, drop a champagne.

Joshua London: 50:13

I uh had a nice conversation again with michelle with an article I was doing uh on on champagne. So I asked them um, you know? So what are some of the, the technical, technical differences in? Because they've been doing it now for you know however long a decade plus 20 years, something like they've doing it a long time already and it's a regular thing. So I said, like, how much kosher do you produce relative to your non-kosher? So he says, you know, it's different every year depending on quality, depending on the market. You know demand or whatever he says. So at any given vintage they could be doing zero kosher bottles to up to 30,000.

S Simon Jacob: 50:55

I said okay. So let's say how is 30,000 compared to the rest of what they make, though?

Joshua London: 50:59

So that's what I asked him. So he said like on average in any year they're non-kosher, they do 1.5 million.

S Simon Jacob: 51:08

Wow.

Joshua London: 51:09

So 30,000 with a tremendous, he said, like all the economy of scale is lost, all the efficiency is lost. So a winery that normally produces 1.5 million, the exact same infrastructure, has to separately, fully separate. You know, independent is now doing a tiny run of 30,000. So you can imagine what the costs are.

Joshua London: 51:36

So you know, and for a quality producer. They demand that the mashkichim have to be on hand. You know, ideally as readily available as they're not, and so you know you can't always. There's only so many people doing it, so there's always well, not always All the time delay the seamlessness or distance the seamlessness potential seamlessness of the kosher run from the non-kosher run. But you know, if the guy, if you're, say, in Champagne and the guy's coming up from, I don't know, strasbourg or Lyon or wherever, you got to wait for him to show up before you can pull the sample, before you can adjust this, before you can adjust that, and you know, if you've ever driven around France, you know you get stuck in traffic and that's another delay. So people have to.

Joshua London: 52:47

It's one of those areas where an all-kosher winery has it all over a non-kosher winery in terms of the process and the efficiency and scale. And scale the downside is it's often the best. Terroir is, you know, multi-generational, you know established, which means not kosher, it means not Jewish, it means, you know, so often the non-kosher wineries have better fruit at their disposal, but it's offset by the fact that the economics of it are upside down, whereas an all-kosher place, the economics of the production are in line with the industry. But if they're an estate winery, it's just what they own, and if they're not estate or if they also buy, it's what the know, what they can afford to get and what they're able to get, even in Israel. You know it's not unusual, if you're not in a state winery, for your long-term contracts to be underwhelming. You know where the grower goes, even though we signed for this. You know they won't tell you I cut a deal with somebody else for cash. They'll tell you oh, yields were low this year.

S Simon Jacob: 53:56

Yeah.

Joshua London: 53:57

Yeah, it is what it is, and we should actually because yields were low.

S Simon Jacob: 54:00

you should actually pay me more because it's a more concentrated product. Yeah, that's right, but yeah, it's really.

Joshua London: 54:06

Everyone's trying to make a living, but anyway so in the kosher market. So there's all those aspects to it and consumer behavior is different. Now the other thing about the kosher market at the end of the day, you didn't need wine, halakhically, wine meaning grape juice too, but something that is yayan. They need yayan, they need it every single week At a minimum. They need it for kiddush abdallah. So for some, grape juice is fine, either because they like the taste. They don't want the alcohol, for health reasons, for lifestyle reasons. You know, young kids, whatever it is, although I give my young kids wine, but whatever. But Jews need the product and I've often said, at the end of the day, in the mainstream world, wine is a luxury item, in the Jewish world, wine is a necessity. Good wine is a luxury item and it makes a big difference. So it means that you know if somebody is budget constrained and most Jews are you know lots of God willing, many, many children, and that costs money to raise and educate and so on. All the different competing elements of a family budget. Um, you know, unless uh, both, uh, both, all the elements that control the budget, the husband, wife and anything else, unless they're on the same page, uh, and or the disposable income allows whoever's making the purchases to quietly bump it up anyway. But but otherwise, you know, it has to be sort of a family decision that we're going to drink at this level, not that level. You know so there's plenty of people who, as much as they would love to drink, you know, a few hundred-dollar bottles of wine on a Shabbos, that's just not an option, it's just not realistic. And so everyone is always looking for the cheapest possible wine that they'll enjoy. So, depending on their palates, that means that they have to spend over, say, I don't know, 20 bucks, 25 bucks just to get something that they can drink, $25 just to get something that they can drink.

Joshua London: 56:35

You know, in the trade world, you know there used to be $2 Chuck, but it was not all wines that were competitive at that price level were any good. $2 Chuck was considered just drinkable enough. Closer, there's no such thing as a $2 Chuck. The closest thing would be $5. There's not a lot of that at that price point either. But Trader Joe's in America you can start to get for under $10, you can find things.

Joshua London: 57:04

Most kosher wines under $10 are at the quality level of the competitors of two-buck chuck, so not very good. There are some exceptions. Buck chuck, uh, so not very good. There are some exceptions. But so when you're at that price point, you know to drink a cabernet that retails in the kosher market for 9.99, um, may or may not give you the same pleasure as bartender moscato. You know which, depending on your exact market. You're either getting discounted at $10 or you're spending maybe $14.

Joshua London: 57:41

Again, it depends on the exact market. So you're comparing something that you can absolutely drink not remarkable, necessarily depending on your taste preferences, but everyone will. It's not like Manischewitz wine, they'll get something out of it Versus a dry red that at that quality level maybe isn't really what you want. So so the price sensitivity is is high and it leads to big gaps between people who aren't willing to spend more than their usual budget because it's unfamiliar territory, and they're not. You know, if they're buying wines at that price point, it's usually for a reason, right, why convincing the average drinker to spend more than twenty dollars or twenty quid in Britain is a huge jump, right? Most of the wine that gets sold is at the is at the cheaper end. Twenty is considered sort of premium, right, and certainly in the UK, but even in America. Mainstream 2025 is the first jump to premium In the kosher market. That's like nobody thinks of it as premium because you think, oh, that's where it becomes drinkable Again. Partly it's just because kosher costs a little bit more to produce.

Joshua London: 59:10

Israeli wines have to be exported out of Israel, brought into America. There's costs involved in that. All Israeli wines have to be exported out of Israel, brought into America. There's costs involved in that. So all Israeli wines are that much more expensive in America or in the UK, often just removing whatever competitive advantage in terms of price structure domestically in Israel. That evaporates the moment, you know, because import-export it's just there's more costs involved Not fully evaporates, but you know that cuts into the margins of how people think of these wines. The Mavushel aspect also changes, particularly for Israeli production. There's often the stuff that they make Mavushel for export a little bit different because they're a little bit further removed from the chain of customers being able to, you know, relate back this didn't taste right or this wasn't, you know. So sometimes the Mavushel quality coming out of some of the larger wineries in Israel isn't quite as good as the same version that you can get locally.

S Simon Jacob: 1:00:24

You mentioned, though, that some of the French ones have a Mavushel and a non-Mavushel, and you've tasted those. What do they taste like? What's difference? Is there a difference?

Joshua London: 1:00:33

so it varies a little bit. Um, some of them, some of the wineries have uh, so I've come to understand this is like a technical issue but, um, many of these wineries, it's small production, they uh so that even even within their own, you know, like thermal processing of wine is a longstanding thing. Almost all commercial wineries of any proper size have had experience with it. Not movuscial temperatures right, that's a whole, nother kettle of fish, but just the idea of using heat in judicious, technical ways to deal with a difficult vintage. Not all of them are familiar, but many, many, many are familiar. They all kind of hate the idea just because it's, you know, heat. It's not what they're. It certainly doesn't keep with the narrative. They tell customers but they're familiar with the narrative. They tell customers but they're familiar. But to do it at a scale and with the rigorous protocol involved in Koshers is kind of a different order.

Joshua London: 1:01:46

Some wineries, you can't get the equipment easily. Sometimes you can't even get it to the facility easily. In some cases you have to truck the liquid just a little bit. You know it just depends on where things are set up. When mashkiach is being mavashul, the wines, you know a heavier touch versus a lighter touch. You know so that even though there's a particular temperature you need to get at for you know, halacha um, it doesn't mean that you're not getting well over that at times because you know oops, you know I'm not regulating it for the way I should. Obviously no one's going to share that with anybody. You know the, the I mean the people producing it know what's going on, but they're not going to share that with customers and say, oh well, the first 20,000 liters went about 10 degrees hotter than we wanted. So there's some things, it just is what it is and they have to make the best of it and so they'll try to blend it out. You know things.

Joshua London: 1:02:51

So some wineries, their controversial versions, really aren't the same quality level. In some cases they will be right. It means, like the first time that Capsanus in Spain did some Mavushal wines, I think virtually everyone agreed they weren't as good. There was a real qualitative difference. You can taste them back to back and it was like something in the wine had changed and not for the good. And that's a learning curve. You know a couple of vintages in. They get it usually so. So there's that aspect to it and again from a it's it's all very technical from a consumer perspective. At the end of the day, all you know is you drink it and it tastes good or it doesn't taste good. It tastes like you expect or it doesn't taste like you expect.

S Simon Jacob: 1:03:43

I have a question the global markets between having France and having the US and having Israel and some of the other outlying producers. Is there currently a leader in the kosher wine industry? You know, is it Israel, is it the US, is it Europe, is it another?

Joshua London: 1:04:10

region. It's a good question, so it depends a little bit on what the focal point is. So, in terms of sheer numbers, the largest number of all kosher wineries is Eretz, israel, which, frankly, I find appropriate. I think that's the way it should be. As a quick aside, when the late Daniel Rogoff, in one of the iterations of his book on his first one, that was just kosher wines, not Israeli wines, kosher wines I wrote a review for the LA Jewish Journal in which I was a bit critical, I mean, you know he's a good guy, it's a good book. But I said, like you know, the percentage of Israeli wines isn't as high as it ought to be for the market in a book that's about global kosher wine and you know there's many more kosher wines from Israel than was reflected in the book. And he said, well, I already have a book on Israeli wines. And I said, but you're missing the point To a kosher consumer. Right, they want to know about kosher wines as a whole and so it should be better represented. So that is, just as a quick side note, one of the things that I feel very strongly.

Joshua London: 1:05:42

I think a lot of people don't grasp about kosher wine. A lot of Jews don't grasp. You know we speak of kosher wine in terms of kosherists because within the trade it's, you know, kosherist supervisors who are doing it right, who are involved in it. Logically, you know it's Makhle Asura. So we think in terms of kosherists and it is conceptually at that, that level, at the technical level, but really it's not cautious in in the way that, um, you know uh, ingredients into uh this or that processed food or kosher. It's not quite the same, right, it's not, it's not manufactured in quite the same way. It's much more of a natural product. You know additives and you know make sure the yeast if you're using commercial yeast. There's a handful of things, but ultimately it's an agricultural product.

Joshua London: 1:06:42

Really, what kosher? The difference between kosher wine and stamien, right? General wine, non-kosher wine isn't really Kashrus, it's really Yiddishkeit, it's Jewish identity. What is kosher wine? It's Jewish wine, right? Historically, what was the reason for, you know, the Gezer of Stam Yenom? It's not Yayin Nassar, that's distinct. Hashem doesn't want us to have wine that's been used for Avodah Zarah. That's its own isser, it's an isser der eisr. The reason why stam yenam wine, about which we don't know if it was used for Nesach, why it's forbidden, is because chasunists they don't want the sages didn't want Jews in that social situation with non-Jews. It's about separation, it's us and them. So kosher wine is really Jewish wine, right, that's the distinction. So you know, in terms of the rules of, you know the technical rules of kashers.

Joshua London: 1:07:47

You know we live in an age in which most Jews aren't Shomer Shabbos, they're not Shomer Mitzvahs in the way that used to be. Certainly in the biblical period, but certainly in the Talmudic period, you were either Jewish, which meant you were of the community, regardless of your exact level of religiosity. You were Jewish. There was only one definition. It was before. There was the different. You know reform and centuries or millennia before all that, millennia plus. So it was identity Jewish, not Jewish. And to be a Jew who's outside Jewish was a whole different thing. So wine was Jewish wine. So it's different from shchita, it from.

Joshua London: 1:08:39

You know modern food processing. So you know, in an era now where many jews can't make, you can't make jewish wine in a halachic sense. Right, they need, they need to hire workers who are shomer shabbos. But before, the cautious industry had certifications that you know, for which you rightly need to pay, because it's a job, someone has to do it. How do you know something was kashar? Because you know Yossala the butcher. He lives there, he's part of the community. He's kashar, the meat's kashar, because he's a trustworthy yid. How do you know you? You know this wine was kosher Because he's in the community. It's Jewish wine, he's making Jewish wine.

Joshua London: 1:09:20

So before Kostras became an industry and again, this is all a proper natural evolution. It's a progression and it is right and proper. I know people complain all the time about it. It's a job and it's a progression and it is right and proper. I know people complain all the time about it. It's a job and it's a difficult job. Dealing with Yidden is always a difficult job but ultimately right.

Joshua London: 1:09:41

So kosher wine is really much more about the identity of Jewish wine and it's just as a technical matter. L'halacha, that means Shabbos, that means you know folks of the community, and then there's a politics Haimish versus Liz versus that, etc. But so Israel, by rights, should all be Jewish wine. I mean all the Israeli wine, right, I mean again Palestinian wine, if you're there, whatever. But commercially it's all Jewish wine. It's not all kosher because of the technicalities of you know what constitutes kosher certification and I understand many Israelis. This isn't what they want to hear and it's not their approach. Conceptually, that's fine, no one has to agree with me. I'm just saying, historically that's what kosher wine is.

Joshua London: 1:10:48

So it therefore becomes a bit weird at times when the best kosher wines are coming from non-Jewish wineries. It's the nature of the market that somebody swooped in and convinced them to do Jewish wine. But you know a ninth generation French winemaker who you know historically, if they had any interaction with Jews before the modern era was not positive, even if, you know, certainly post, either during the war or post-war. Maybe it's very positive but yeah, historically probably wasn't great. So on the one hand, it's a it's it's a Kiddush Hashem that now you can go and get the highest levels of Koshers from you know people who wouldn't know, you know, don't know from Jews otherwise. And in many respects that's a Kiddush Hashem and it's a wonderful thing. You're being Mekadesh, something, you're bringing it into the fold. On the other hand, it's not Jewish wine. You're creating Jewish wine in a totally non-Jewish environment and there's a cost right. There's a greater cost. Non-jewish environment and there's a cost right, there's a greater cost. So in terms of leadership in the wine world, so it depends on sort of what you're looking for.

Joshua London: 1:12:03

As I say, the most number of kosher wineries is in Israel, which I think is appropriate, and so there's a leadership sense of when Israel is exploring new varieties. That's, I think, exciting. You know the indigenous variety Not that all are equally good, but it's an exciting development. Certainly, at the wine geek level, even non-Jews get very excited about indigenous varieties in israel or cyprus or greece, or because it's different from cabernet and merlot, and as much as they love all wine, when it's different and it's a foreign sounding grape to them, that's just exciting. You know full stop. Whether it's any good is the next step, is the next question. So that's an exciting development. Wine geeks who are more academic are especially excited by. You know some of the archaeological wine research about. You know how Vitis Vinifera came onto the scene and you know it turns out the Levant is also not just.

Joshua London: 1:13:10

Georgia Depending on one's level of geekery. This is brilliant stuff. There's all that. There's lots of unbelievable talent in Israel, but what Israel lacks is, as you know better than I even, I'm sure, is the traditions, Because outside of a couple of families before Bedinat Yisrael, there was no wine in any traditional sense. It's not like in France, where there's nine generations, you know, cultivating the exact same grape and the exact same plot, and so they, you know. It's not like that right.

S Simon Jacob: 1:13:51

It's a little different, though. Wait, I want to correct you. It's not like there wasn't 2,000 years ago. There were gods all over the place, you almost can't throw a stone in the Judean hills without hitting a god.

Joshua London: 1:14:10

But there haven't been Jews here.

S Simon Jacob: 1:14:11

for that there's a big space where we were pulled out.

Joshua London: 1:14:16

So Dulles brought to an end a terrific amount of the continuity of Jewish life, that's the nature of it. So that's what I mean by tradition. Recent tradition, right where you've got a grandfather and a great-grandfather, and what have you?

S Simon Jacob: 1:14:37

I mean the Herzogs have this living tradition that's like 12 generations and it's amazing. I mean it's very rare, but they do. I mean we've got some families here that are, you know, two and three generations into it in Israel, but it's not like we've been living on the same land with the same vines for the last you know, 900 years. Yeah, 900 years.

Joshua London: 1:15:09

Yeah, now. Now, all of that said, there's also. This is where the sort of the, the stories wine people like to tell themselves. There's a disjuncture, right. The, uh, a lot of the great wines of the world, um, went through a terrifically long periods of mediocrity, um, uh, in some cases unbelievable mediocrity, and even unbelievable vineyards. You know Chateau Aubrion, right? Samuel Pepys mentions it in his diary in the 1600s. So, for sure, that plot of earth has always been, you know, special. But the wines coming from that plot of earth have not always been special. But the wines coming from that plot of earth have not always been correct.

Joshua London: 1:15:54

Because until the modern era in which wineries, estate, bottled, it was negotiations, buying barrels and bottling it themselves, and often they were doctoring it because it was a regulation, they did what they wanted. So in France, famously, there's lots of these you know stories of. You know fraud and legal and illegal right, because, again, it was pre-regulation in some respects, certainly before the AOCs. That's why a lot of this stuff came about was to protect these things. So the, also the, the, the, the, the science of wine pre Louis Pasteur and post Louis Pasteur is, you know, like a Copernican revolution. And since Pasteur, the, the science and understanding is just leaps and bounds. So in in, in that you can now the science and understanding is just leaps and bounds, so in that you can now make technically brilliant wine virtually anywhere in the world.

Joshua London: 1:17:10

So, yes, it may be a place that didn't know viticulture until you know yesterday, so to speak, in relative terms. You know Japan, you know pre-1950s I don't think there was a lot of wine but you know they're exploring and doing interesting things. China there's plenty of places that don't have any natural long history of wine but can be doing excellent things. So does it mean that, therefore, therefore, a wine that you know in historical terms was created yesterday versus the 12th generation, or whatever? Does it mean that they're qualitatively better, worse?

Joshua London: 1:17:41

That's a it's a subjective judgment, but in many respects no, it's. It's the, the person who has been farming the same plot of land for generations. They make better wine now than they ever made before Because the kids you know the people doing it are educated in scientific terms. So Israel has an edge that way where, on the one hand, yeah, there's a break in the continuity of tradition and so a lot of indigenous and all that kind of stuff is gone. We don't really know what styles and whatever, but ancient wine tended to be, by contemporary standards, dreck right Too sweet.

Joshua London: 1:18:25

New Res and all the stuff they would use to doctor it. So different kettle of fish. I think there's a degree to which it's an unnecessary story, but it's a trapping because the wine world, the mainstream wine world, likes to tell these multi-generational stories. So again, in terms of leadership. So Israel, I think, is where some of the most exciting stuff is happening.

Joshua London: 1:18:53

B'chol, the Herzog family we mentioned it a few times. It's not appreciated by some because you know it's commercial, it's. You know people are always complaining about pricing and whatever. The Herzog family has done more than any other commercial enterprise, commercial group, to push the quality of kosher wines in the right direction. They're doing it for commercial reasons, right and proper. Right, but it's hands down. But for them the industry would be nowhere near as advanced as it is. They're not the only ones, but they're by far the market leaders in this, and so it's leaps and bounds. We would be so far removed from quality wines. But for them, and even the people who, independent of them, are pioneers the Ernie Weir's and people who, independent of them, are pioneers, the Ernie Weirs, people who are really unbelievable dignitaries.

Joshua London: 1:19:58

If the wine is excellent but nobody can get it, the impact will be minimal. Distribution is an important part of all this. Again, in storied parts of France people don't think of the commerce side of it. Why did one region do better than another? Because the trade route or the train or things that allowed them to get to market. So if the greatest product in the world doesn't have an audience, for distribution reasons, the actual impact on the market will be next to nothing. So that can be a tremendous drawback reasons the actual impact on the market will be next to nothing. That can be a tremendous drawback. Right now, in terms of sheer quality, probably the absolute top of the market me personally I think is Domaine de Monti. Etienne de Monti and his wines, exceptional, the terroir he's working with, unbelievable. The market, you know, the distribution of the wines is pretty minimal. The market exposure is pretty minimal. So the market exposure is pretty minimal. But there's this terrific importer in Israel. They're just kind of reconfiguring their setup in America. Honest Grapes, you've had Nathan on.

S Simon Jacob: 1:21:27

Nathan's amazing.

Joshua London: 1:21:29

And Nathan, he and his partners. It was their pet project to get the thing going. I think the Monty came to him, but they're the ones who made it. They already had a longstanding relationship with the Monty.

Joshua London: 1:21:44

I've had long conversations now with the Monty where, you know, over the years he was approached about kosher and his Israeli importer of his non-kosher told him don't do it, it'll ruin the brand. And 20 years later it's a different story and so he's finally dipped his toes and it's just unbelievable quality and complexity and just amazing wines. His approach to how he wants, how he insists on doing his kosher, is the right approach. But it's expensive. But that's, you know, like, if you can't have the mashkiach exactly when you need them, you know only accepting only Shabbos and Yom Kippur, otherwise you're not doing it right. I'm not waiting a week for the guy to show up Like that's not going to happen. That's the correct approach. You pay for that fair price. So there's a whole variety. So again, if the wines don't succeed commercially, the Monty will stop doing them and the impact on the market will be minimal. So there's success. There's many ways to chalk it up.

S Simon Jacob: 1:22:50

The market controls it, but the talent.

Joshua London: 1:22:51

Yeah, we've never had such great talent in the modern era. The guys in Israel, across the board, some amazing stuff Ernie Weir, jeff Morgan, jonathan Haydu, david Gazzagnato and the whole Herzog operation, california. And then what they're doing, menachem Izraelovich in Royal Wines Europe, pierre, you know, I think, still does a couple of French wines.

S Simon Jacob: 1:23:20

He does, he does a bunch actually, he actually got back into it, bringing wines to Israel during the Shemitah year. He made some interesting wines in France and brought them back to Israel so that they were non-Shemitah. Are there any Israeli wines that really stand out in your mind?

Joshua London: 1:23:42

So I find across the board the Reconati wines. I think I've always liked Reconati from Louis Pascoe's days forward, but I feel like they get better all the time. Like Reconati from Louis Pascoe's days forward, but I feel like they get better all the time. And they were great to begin with and they get better all the time.

S Simon Jacob: 1:23:58

By the way, there's a new Odom it's called Odom Merlot from Reconati. It's from their Odom vineyard and it's awesome and it's a Meryard, and it's awesome and it's a Merlot, and it's just an awesome.

Joshua London: 1:24:16

Merlot coming out of Israel.

S Simon Jacob: 1:24:18

So I'm just telling you it's an interesting product.

Joshua London: 1:24:21

There's some people who are doing amazing things. So Dalton I've always been a fan of Dalton, I think they do. I mean A you know the pioneers. They helped dramatically transform, you know, the region into tourism and wine. They're true trailblazers. As it happens, they've had a terrible war no one has a good war, but they've had a terrible war. But they, I think they have some amazing wines the Asufa series, which is, you know, the play thing it's so much fun.

S Simon Jacob: 1:24:59

I love it there's some of us in the us I'm including myself, with some stellar people but there are a number of people who have like put themselves in a box that they almost don't like anything except this specific product. I've tried to keep my mind a little bit more open and I try to taste things. I don't always love some of them, but I can see how the market would react positively towards it and how it could be an entry drug to the wine industry. Where to expect somebody who's going to pick up a bottle of Smith-Hodler feed that's 2020 of Smith-Hotel-A-Fete that's 2020, and you're selling it at whatever price and these people pick it up and they taste it and they go. Oh, you know what Wine's not for me. I'm going to go back to cocktails.

Joshua London: 1:26:07

So it goes back to the premiumization, the categories, price categories. You know, as Louis Pascoe once told me for an article I did, he said at the end of the day like you know, very few people go into wine to be rich. That's not why they went into it. And he's 100% correct. And you know, it doesn't mean that there aren't rich people who get into wine and it doesn't mean there aren't people who got rich through wine. But that's not the norm, right.

S Simon Jacob: 1:26:36

It's not the wine that did it, that's right.

Joshua London: 1:26:40

So again for Smith or Lafitte or some of these, these are, in relative terms, the playthings of the rich Right. Bordeaux has always had this Burgundy. That's more recent, but it certainly has it now. It's important to ensure that you have correct or correct is not a strong phrase that you have adjusted expectations for human nature. In theory, it'd be great for every wine lover to be enamored with Smith Holofit. I'm sure Smith Holofit would love it if every wine sold out in seconds, but that's not practical. Four gates everything sells out more or less in an hour, but there's not much of it. It's not practical. Four gates everything sells out more or less in an hour, but there's not much of it.

S Simon Jacob: 1:27:34

It's not for all days.

Joshua London: 1:27:40

Some of the larger wineries, particularly some of the middling price points, get a bad rap. Because if you're a Smith or Lafitte drinker and that's your budget, those are the types of wines you drink. A Barcon Classic is not going to rock. You Make it for you, Right? It's just not going to work for you. That doesn't mean that it's not a good wine. It's not being made for you in that sense, Right.

S Simon Jacob: 1:28:06

Yeah, 100%.

Joshua London: 1:28:07

Right, and so there has to be an adjustment to how people speak about this. The wine world is co-opted. The wine literature, shall we say, the wine buzz, is co-opted by the people who have the time and interest, people like me although hopefully I'm a force for good to the degree that I have any impact at all just tiny, tiny, tiny. But I'm bored, senseless, when people only want to discuss sort of the super expensive snob appeal things, even though if I have the budget, those are my wines.

S Simon Jacob: 1:28:53

But the reality is You're an honest man, you're an honest man.

Joshua London: 1:28:57

It's good but you know, if I'm trying to convince people to incorporate wine into their lives, what kind of a schmuck would I be if I say here's a wine you'll never afford, you'll never want to have, but taste it, you'll love it. Great, now, everything doesn't taste great Like. Why would I do that? Why would I take away someone's pleasure? I think it's a silly thing to do. The trophy wine, the playthings of the middle class and upper class, aren't going to rock the world of the people. You know, just because it's too different.

Joshua London: 1:29:41

If you're a fast food burger kind of guy, you know the very delicate entrecote steak probably isn't as satisfying If you had it. You know, once a week the very delicate entrecote steak probably isn't as satisfying If you had it once a week. You'll develop a taste for it and suddenly you'll, like everyone else, go oh, they don't cook it as well as these guys. But if you're a fast food kind of eater, which just by the economics a lot of people are, you have to develop a taste for things that are outside of that.

S Simon Jacob: 1:30:13

So thank you. Thank you for being on The Kosher Terroir and I look forward to talking to you again very soon.

Joshua London: 1:30:18

Thank, you for having me. This was my great pleasure and I hope this will be even remotely satisfying to other people, but I had a great time.

S Simon Jacob: 1:30:26

I think it will be. It's fun. If you have fun, it communicates. This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of The Kosher Terroir. I have a personal request no matter where you are or where you live, please take a moment to pray for our soldiers' safety and the safe and rapid return of our hostages. Please subscribe via your podcast provider to be informed of our new episodes as they are released. If you're new to The Kosher Terroir, please check out our many past episodes.