20 Minutes of Darkness

Frozen

• Aya Pogrebinsky, Eric Williams, Kieu Anh Vuong, PhD • Season 1 • Episode 5

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In this episode, our guest, Kieu Anh Vuong, PHD, career and health coach, discusses her personal experience with darkness. She describes the state of being frozen and the realization that there will always be a sort of emptiness beyond grief.


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Music by: Eric Mayleek

you Hi, I'm Aya. And I'm Eric. And welcome to 20 minutes of darkness. We have a wonderful guest here today who I personally work with as a career coach. She helped me transition into the sort of the world of entrepreneurship. Anyway, as you know, we are here to talk about the stuff no one wants to talk about openly. So today's guest we have is Q. She's gone through many transitions from management consulting to academia. Then she got her PhD to the UX tech world, now life coach and career strategist. As a tech leader, she's also worked at Airbnb and YouTube. As a life coach and strategist, Q is very, very keyed in on helping unhappy tech professionals find their way and get a well -paid career in the jobs and things they actually love versus just working, getting a paycheck for things they don't actually want to do. I mean, I've been there, I've done that, worked in several jobs and, you know, made good money, but it's not what I want to do. So I wish in the past I had people like you. So Q, how are you doing today? The floor is yours. Awesome. Thank you both so much. Thank you for the intro. Yeah. It's funny that you said that because my focus is literally from paycheck to passion. So yes, I do have unhappy tech professionals find the path that they're, you know, that's... that they are meant to do, that is their calling. And yeah, I'm really excited to talk about Starfest. I was just saying to you guys earlier, I feel like I'm way too perky for the topic. That's the point. But as I was thinking about it yesterday, in terms of what do I actually want to talk about, I couldn't really decide because I... I thought that maybe one of the potentially dark things is that I don't really let darkness come that close anymore. I'm sort of like, I don't know, sometimes I feel a bit frozen to things. That doesn't mean that I can't feel empathy. I obviously need that for my job. But like the other day I had a client who had complete... burnout from her job, from her job search actually. And she was basically crying the whole 45 minutes. Sometimes louder, sometimes less loud. She was sobbing, right? And when I told my coach colleagues about it, they asked me, like, how did you handle it? And I said, like, well, to be honest, I'm pretty immune to it. And it sounds, it doesn't mean that I don't care, but it doesn't... sort of, it doesn't shake me at all, like the way it does to certain people when they see other people cry. You know, and I wonder sometimes whether that in itself is somehow a bit dark, to be honest, you know, it's not like strong or something, right? I don't think. I think I've been in a session with you where I cried. I'll be completely, you know, open and honest there. And I didn't feel that, like, it didn't feel dark. You actually said something that I really liked. You said something about how crying is kind of like sweating out. 100%. Yes. Yeah. Maybe could it possibly just be because you see it as like a natural thing like sneezing and blowing your nose. I mean, that is definitely, yeah, 100%. I mean, that is definitely where my mind takes me to, right? And so that is how I cope with it. And it serves me well. It serves my clients well, right? Yeah, for sure. It's just like some... like some other body liquids that need to come out, you know? I wanted to jump back to what you said initially. I feel a bit frozen. I don't let that darkness come to me. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah. I mean, when I think back, you know, I have so many incidents where I wonder whether I should have felt worse, you know, and I think that's a very natural kind of question we sometimes have as well. You know, when I was, I think I was... 20 maybe, you know, my best friend died from OD, right? And I don't really tell it that many people because first of all, people who know me sort of the way they know me now, their very first question or association is something around, I didn't know Q had a background where she could even have a friend who could die from OD, right? And so, yeah, you know, and so that's like quite a few layers there, you know? And then I think back of like when I first moved to the US in 2014, I think it was a month after I arrived, you know, I heard then that another best friend of mine, like that sounds really weird, but another best friend of mine from another stage of life, obviously, right? Because I was like already around 30 then, passed away from a kayaking accident in the U .P. And that was like in the newspaper and everything. And that... I mean, both hit me really hard, but in different ways, because one time I was, you know, once I was like 19, 20, you know, I was kind of still sort of just out of high school. One was, you know, when I was sort of after my PhD already, you know, so when I like start a new phase of my career. And so it's a different age and maturity. I think losing someone really close to you hits you differently, you know, death is always like that ultimate thing, right? Where you sort of like, I don't get to understand it. It's like science has not caught up. I don't get to understand it. Nobody really died for a long time and then comes back and tells me the story. The closest you have is like new death experience, right? But even then you think, well, but for those people, it might be also a bit different than people who then actually die, you know? And so how much can we use that knowledge, you know, and apply it to people who don't come back? We don't get to understand it properly. we don't get to practice it either, right? I mean, luckily, right? And so it's not something we have practice on every day on a daily basis. So yeah, I mean, you know, and so that is sort of the ultimate darkness that we experience in life, I think, right? I mean, at least for myself, you know, but then like just two years ago when my dad passed, right? That was like a whole different experience again, you know? And so, I mean, seeing, sort of experiencing the passing of someone who is so close to you. And it's not just the passing, I think it's the stage leading up to it. That sort of, that is the hardest, right? Because it's literally seeing someone who was so full of life going into that phase where there's so little left of them. I mean, their mind is still totally there. Like they want to do all these things, right? And their body just like said, no, you know, and seeing how they can't really even do basic functions in their life anymore, you know, for someone who wants to used to be so full of life. That is, I think the hardest, you know, why and doing and experiencing all that. Why holding a newborn in my hand? You know, like I had my second. Yeah. And my second daughter was three months old. I was still like breastfeeding her and stuff, you know? And so I literally like took her to the hospice and breastfed her there, you know, while seeing my dad dying. And so that kind of contrast between life and death was also a weird picture to see, you know? And sometimes I just wonder about all those like three experiences, you know, how it shaped me, you know, how, or whether it did, or whether I even just think that it should or something. But I mean, I think the hardest part about it is that I do have a very sort of rational mind. And so I think the hardest part is for me to like, still think of like, hey, I want to understand though, you know, and there's nothing to understand. You know, like, it's just what it is, right? I mean, that's the whole purpose of life. You know, it is, it is. That's a lot, by the way. I just want to acknowledge that. That's a lot to carry. You said you were 19 when your best friend died. Did you have any support back then with that kind of first experience or did you have to kind of go through that by yourself? I mean, my dad was still around and he's always very, like he's very much like a people's person, you know? And so I remember him like taking me to the funeral. Like he came with me and then he was really good, like to just have around. But I mean, I know I do remember sort of. being pretty alone with it, you know, because it's not like, especially at that age, it's not like everyone else has, you know, a best friend who also just passed and so let's get together and talk about it, you know. I think in the US there might be more sort of like, I don't know, at least sort of more formality about supports, perhaps, you know, like if you were in school, they might send you to some country, I don't know, right? But in Germany, it's like tough enough, you know, like, you know, it's not a big thing. it's not a known thing that you would have like a support group or anything. So I didn't even think of seeking, like looking for one, right. And, but I do remember going through sort of like really weird phase, like for example, you know, because we obviously used to hang out at my place a lot, right. And so I remember thinking, I don't know, I just left my door open sometimes, somehow like in my mind, I'm like, what if I have to, I don't know, it's gonna make me sound crazy, but I was like, what if. I have to leave the door open for him to have a chance to come back, like his soul or whatever it is. What if I leave the door closed, then it's like a sign to the other world that I'm not welcoming or something. And so I left my door kind of cracked open for many nights. It's okay. But yeah. I'm curious the dynamic of that. I know losing a father or a parent, the closeness to that and then like a best friend, you still have love for a best friend. To me, it's on the same playing field when it's a family member and it's a best friend, it's kind of the same. But the dynamic of the way people left you, like to me, and I'm not speaking for you because I'm curious to know how you feel, but like, okay, when you lost your father, it was a slow transition, right? He was in hospital, you actually were there watching his body deteriorate and then he passed away. But... for like someone that OD'd or a kayaking accident. It was, they're gone right now. You don't have them anymore. So I'm curious, how did you cope with those? Was it more of a shocker because it was just ended right there? Or with your father, it was like, okay, I know this is happening. I'm here every day, I'm seeing this. How did that work for you? Yeah, no, that's a good question, Eric. I think... I think there's no better or worse. That's what I've come to conclude. I know that's not directly your question, but that's kind of like where my mind kind of went, you know, because I remember like with my dad, you know, a lot of people told me like, actually, you're kind of fortunate, you know, that you have the time to say goodbye and, you know, you can say all the things and you can ask all the things, you know. But I don't, and it didn't, and also like when they say, was it sudden? I, you know. I was like, I don't really know what to say because I mean, we kind of knew it for five years, you know, that he was stage four. And we know the prognosis for like, you know, the five years sort of survival rate, you know, so we knew all that. And so I guess if you look at five years, no, it's not sudden, right? There's no five year suddenness, but it's still very sudden when it happens around the time when it happens. It's very, it's very weird. Like even though, you know, like he even chose his day, you know, to sort of. say goodbye, you know, and, and so I don't know, it was almost like a death penalty, to be honest, you know, where you kind of count down the days, you know, because there is that day, you know, and so I remember being like, you know, it was the 11th of August, right? And I remember every day thinking like, okay, it's the fourth today, it's the fifth today, it's the sixth today, you know, it's like, it's just a weird experience, to be honest, right? It's like, And then it's like, it doesn't make the time that you spend with him more fun or anything like that at all. It's still just as tedious and boring and annoying sometimes as some of the other days. You know? Yeah. But then you're like, but we just have like three days left though. So I should probably really enjoy it. I should really stay here. Then I'm like, yeah, but I still have to take care of the other stuff though. You know, like, you know, and so it's a weird experience somehow, because on the one hand it's so... It's so mundane, you know, but on the other hand, it's a very exceptional, right? Like literally, I just know that there's no better or worse. That's what I've come to a conclusion. I don't think that even if you have a due date for something, right? Especially for a person. Yeah. I don't think there's still a thing is enough time. I don't think you ever going to get out all the questions and all the things that you want to ask. I don't think that's ever going to happen. Right. but I was just curious on how did you view it? Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I would say though that it's, it might be a little bit kind of harder to believe when it happens suddenly, right? When you're not there. But having said that, you know, even though I forced myself to see everything throughout, you know, like every step of my dad's passing, you know. like even after his passing, you know, and whether I want to be there for cremation, whether I want to be there for this, I was like, yes to everything, just because I know that my mind won't believe it otherwise. Right. And so I said, I have to be there. I have to see it. You know, I have to be there to say goodbye on every single step of the way, you know, and still afterwards, it did not feel real because I mean, we live in, you know, he lived in Germany and I'm in the States. Right. And even before that, I was in the UK. And so we never like live, you know. I mean, it's been a long, long time, obviously, since we live in the same city or anything, right? And so even now, sometimes it just feels like we've just been out of touch for a while. You know, like even now it doesn't feel real sometimes. Like, and it's been like two and a half years, right? And the other day, I literally, after trying to call my mom and couldn't reach her, I tried to call my sister, couldn't reach her. And I literally thought of calling him, like for a very short split of a second, right? I was like, and that was when. the sadness then came like, so that's the thing I can't do anymore, right? And I mean, obviously that happened all the time right after, but even after two and a half years, right? That just happened, right? Yeah. Yeah. But it is harder to believe if it just happened suddenly and you just hear the news and then you have to look for evidence and you know, you just kind of, yeah. Yeah. And with Barrett, right? The kayaking experience, an accident, it was literally in the... newspapers in the UK. Right. And so I was looking online, you know, to find that evidence to allow my brain to catch up. Right. Right. You know, I know you, you're a very hard working individual and you have a PhD, you work, you have clients before that you worked in tech and then you had a child just as your father was passing. It was during my maternity leave. It's like you're moving nonstop. And it's interesting that you say you're frozen. Do you feel like you've had an opportunity to kind of face that darkness? Cause based on everything that I know that you've done professionally. Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I think, I think the frozen being or frozen -ness, if that's a word, I don't think it comes just from like the, my dad's passing, right? I think it comes from childhood. It comes from everything. And the busyness is probably like one of the ways to. One of the pretty common ways really, right? For people to cope and cover up, you know? Yeah, and so, I mean, I do like to think that I've started a lot of work on that path, you know, to sort of see what is there to defrost kind of thing, you know? But, yeah. But I think some, I mean, some part of... us might just kind of be a bit dead to be honest. And that sounds a bit harsh and that maybe shouldn't come from a life coach. I don't know, but I don't think some part of it is supposed to be revived. You know, like it's, it's meant to be like a scar, I think. And the scar in itself is beautiful and tells a story, right? But you know, a scar will, I mean, unless you do crazy laser technology, but it's not meant to look like the skin before. And so I think some of the frozen part is not going to be defrosted. It's going to stay that way, I think. And that's what shapes our personality. I love that you said that. Eric and I, we both lost our moms. Eric lost his mom a lot earlier. And when I cry, he kind of just looks at me crazy. And it's interesting because I think that maybe that's part of the scar. I always look at him and I'm like, why aren't you like, you know, like make me feel better. You know, that's not his job. That's not his job. Put my coat hat on. Yeah. No, but I guess, I guess the reason, the reason I even mentioned it is cause I, I do think that like what you said resonance with me, the idea of just letting it be. Exactly. And I mean, some part of it you should obviously address. And I think I have, I mean, so for example, I know the transition from. So I used to cry a lot when I was a kid. really? Yeah, I used to cry a lot when I was a kid. And not just like toddler kid, no like older kids too, bigger kids too. And then I stopped, right? And then I just stopped for a long time. And then it was like literally so like when Tobias, that's my first best friend who passed away. I remember before his funeral, his parents, his mom gave me some tissue paper, a box of tissue paper before we went to the church, you know? And I remember thinking, no, I don't know if I can cry though, you know? This is like, this is gonna be embarrassing. I mean, I was like, and so I was like, my God, you know, it's like, they're gonna be like really disappointed, you know? But I haven't like cried for a long time. I'm not gonna be able to cry. I mean, I was hoping actually when it came to that, so that was just what the body did. But I think in that aspect, I was sort of like frozen for a long time. But then apart from that incident, I went back to sort of like just not being able to cry, and like I tried, I literally tried. And then now I've come back in more recent years, I've come back to sort of like a state where, I'm still not like super close to like the water world and it's not like a measure. There's no bar to how much is good enough sort of thing. But I can feel like I am much more in touch with that side of myself again. And so I think that's the part that is doing the defrosting, you know? And then there's some... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's some just piece that we can't really undo. I would love to hear your opinion, you know, because your PhD was about... lobbies in hospitals. And there's a bit of darkness there too, which is interesting. yeah, I never looked at it that way. But that is interesting. Yeah. I mean, we are all very drawn to darkness, by the way, right? It's like when you think of even like the colors you wear in your clothes or like hair color, right? I mean, so like my dark hair, you know, sort of just the color kind of it pulls, it attracts a lot more energy in, you know, and so we are naturally very drawn. to sort of the darker side of things. Yeah. I love that you said that, but I was curious if you had anything for the audience to say kind of just about what you've learned about approaching darkness. I think the best thing is what I've learned is sort of just to not expect anything to be normal, I suppose, you know, like. all those like as soon as your thought goes into it should be like I should cry more I should be more sad I should have forgotten that experience by now I should not be talking about anymore you know like all these shots right and I still have them you know but just know that you're shooting you know it's a sign that that's just not useful you know like it's not gonna take you anywhere like something that might be dark for me is not really dark for you and then and vice versa you know like for a long time I I felt even guilty for feeling so sad about my dad's passing because as soon as I look for groups of other people who are grieving, I saw people losing their children and people losing siblings in really tragic ways. And so immediately I felt bad for just having lost a dad. due to very traditional cancer kind of thing, but there's no measurement in that way. I mean, whatever hole it leaves in your soul, in your heart, that is the darkness you're dealing with. And ultimately, it's not even about the person that you lose or about the circumstances that is so dark. It's not even about that, right? It's all actually just about you and why. what you decide to make of it based on that experience. So for example, losing my dad had forced me to face that I am in fact a grown up. And that sounds weird because I was 40, obviously I'm grown up, right? But I still wasn't ready. I was still doing, and I had two kids, right? But I was still doing things to hoping for his... approval, hoping for him to reward me. And so in some of my behaviors, I was still a child, and I grew up so fast, right, after his passing. And so I think that is the thing that you have to deal with yourself, right, in that moment. And that is where a lot of sadness actually came from. It's not actually losing him as such. Of course, you're going to be sad and all this stuff, but It's actually the sadness about like how it changes you. So it's a lot about your relationship with yourself. And so whatever darkness I think you face, you know, it's kind of a good opportunity, you know, to look at why that is so dark for you personally. What does it make you face? How does it make you change? Yeah, what belief does it make you to say goodbye to that you really fight to keep? That's what I took away from Darnes, I suppose. And I still work on it every single day. I don't think we can ever be done with it. I wanted to end with one last question. We had an interview with a friend of ours. She lost her mom as well. And she was talking about how she's afraid to have kids because she doesn't want them to go through sort of a passing of her own passing because of what she went through. She's interesting. I know you have two wonderful daughters. What is your thought about that? I know that's kind of a dark question. It is super dark and I think about it so often. I think about it so often, like before every sort of business trip, you know, like as soon as I have to get on the plane, you know, the day before, the week before, I kind of like review my test of the thing, you know, like it's super dark. wow. Super dark, right. And then I think of like how they are like really needy with me, you know, and how they would be if I wasn't around and stuff like that. And so it is the biggest fear, right? But, you know, on the other hand, you know, you can't let that sort of like take over, you know, because you, I mean, the best weapon against those fears, you know, is really gratitude, you know, to be thankful that you have them, that you have this life, you know. And ultimately, I mean, and I still have to work on that belief, you know, but ultimately I think as a parent, your goal is to sort of become obsolete over time. You know, that's how you raise strong children, I think. The goal is not that they really need you, you know. The goal is that they go on and they want you in their life, you know, they love you, but they don't need you, you know. And so, so our goal is really to work towards that, you know, to like... those little birds and then let them fly really far. Like because strong birds are gonna fly, you know, they're not gonna just stay in the nest. I agree with that. Yeah. They're gonna enjoy their freedom. I love the end to this. Thank you so much. You know, I really appreciate you sharing such vulnerable moments. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, for letting me share this experience. I haven't spoken about them in a very long time. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to 20 minutes of darkness.