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For educators looking to connect, learn, and share knowledge about serving first-generation college and college-bound students.
FirstGenFM
Navigating From College to Career: The Transition of First-Generation Professionals with Cesar Margarito
First-generation students have unique needs as they navigate their transition from college to their first professional career. Join me as I chat with Cesar Margarito, whose transformative journey from a small Mexican town to working on his a doctoral degree at the University of Southern California sheds light on the experiences of first-generation professionals. Cesar's passion for education and student support is apparent as he shares personal stories about his family influences, educational pursuits, and his pivotal involvement with TRIO programs. His doctoral research dives into the challenges these new professionals face, offering insights to help shape how we support first-generation students in their career paths.
In this episode, we expand on the importance of career exploration for college students, especially when it comes to understanding organizational culture. Cesar and I discuss everything from the power of networking and the role of career services to practical strategies like mentoring and leveraging existing networks. Through anecdotes about teaching professional etiquette and more, we underscore the nuances of career readiness. Whether you're an educator, a student, or someone passionate about supporting first-generation professionals, this episode has valuable advice and actionable strategies to help bridge the gap between education and a successful career.
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You can find me at https://www.firstgenfm.com/ and on LinkedIn. My email is jen@firstgenfm.com.
Welcome and welcome back to the First Gen FM podcast, where we high school and college educators strengthen, celebrate and support first-generation college and college-bound students. I'm Jennifer Schoen, your host. Please call me Jen. I'd love it if you could leave a review and a rating for this podcast to help other educators find us. Thank you so much for taking the time to do that. Now let's dive into this week's episode.
Speaker 1:Today's guest is Cesar Margarito, and Cesar was born in a small town in Jalisco, mexico, and then came to the United States when he was about 10. He grew up in a small agricultural town in the Salinas Valley and his college journey began at a local community college before he transferred to Cal Poly where he earned both his bachelor's and his master's degree. He's currently completing his doctorate in education in organizational change and leadership at the University of Southern California, and his dissertation is going to be focused on the transitional experiences of first-generation professionals, and that's what we're going to talk about today what he's discovered so far in his dissertation process, how his dissertation is going, and more about the journey that first-generation professionals experience. So let's welcome Cesar to the podcast, all right? Well, let's jump right in. I am here with Cesar Margarito and we are going to talk about his dissertation, the literature review and everything that's going into looking into the transitional experiences of first-gen students into professional jobs, and I'm really excited. Cesar, thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you for having me. I look forward to the conversation, just opening the dialogue a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, because I know we talked about this before that it used to be all about access for first-gen students to college, and then it was all about college success for first-gen students, and now I think the thing that we need to go next is what's happening with them when they get into that professional job. So I'm excited to talk with you and hear about that, but of course, I want to know what was the spark that got you interested in education and especially working with First Gen yeah, so it's very much a personal journey.
Speaker 2:My parents were very adamant about education, which is the reason why we immigrated from Mexico to the US. They really stress education and really had a high regard for educators in general, and I had three other siblings and three out of the four went into education. Oh, wow Two of them are teachers. I'm a little on the outside of teaching but education related and we have one engineer in the family so we don't talk about him.
Speaker 2:No, we're very proud of him, as well as the other siblings. But I think that was the catalyst for me to going into education. Initially I wanted to go into teaching, but then once I really found out more about all the additional hard work long nights, weekends, all those different things I don't know if I want to do that. I don't want to help students. So my first role out of college was actually as an outreach advisor with TRIO programs. So that's kind of what led me down the path of outreach and student support and all that and all that. But it came from that right, that love and the idea that you know, through education we would have a better life than our parents had, right. So that's kind of where the spark of education, and certainly for this population. You know the fact that I myself am a first-generation student, what that means and the connection that I have with students and the passion to advocate for students. That's kind of where it comes from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and certainly the TRIO program would be a great start to be able to do that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:And so then you decided you know what? I'm going to go back and get my doctoral degree.
Speaker 2:I did. It took a while. I sat on that question for quite a while after my master's. It was probably about 10, 12 years between my master's and me finally deciding to you know what let me apply to a program, and part of it was I didn't know what I wanted to do. To do the pros that are out there I mean, there's so many now and with programs also going online, it kind of gives you access to other universities that are, you know, outside of your area, so all those different things. So I really kind of grappled with that question of what I want to study and where and finally settled on this idea of first-generation professionals. That was kind of the question and where can I do that? So I did, I only applied to one school and I ended up getting in.
Speaker 2:So in the winter of 2019, I started my doctoral program at USC in the Organizational Change and Leadership Program. It's been a wonderful experience experience and actually ran on the cusp of finishing my dissertation Hopefully by spring is the deadline because I don't want to be ABD for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1:Yes, no, no. You definitely don't want that, Definitely don't want that. So tell me more about what, what you're studying and and what you've just discovered so far in in the beginning phases of your dissertation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. Uh, as you kind of said at the onset of the interview, I'm looking at the transitional experience of first-generation professionals and that came about through my own personal experience, my observations with colleagues around me, but also with our students. At that time I was doing direct supports through the student services program also a trio program and that's one of the questions that eventually I started looking at is OK, we're preparing these students to graduate, right, they're going through the curriculum, they're getting internships and they're getting these awesome jobs, but sometimes they don't stay in them.
Speaker 2:They end up pivoting, and not that they jump from one company to another, although that's a whole other phenomena. But leaving this research and learning about this concept of professional socialization, which essentially it's just looking more at a holistic way of how individuals get introduced and immersed into a profession. So there's different definitions and depending on who you talk to or what you read, you might see different definitions. But essentially professional socialization looks at knowledge and skills, attitudes, values all that kind of make up professional identity in a particular field. In my research most of it has come through the health and medical field and how structured it is in that setting. So I've not come across it as much in other settings.
Speaker 2:Law there's a little bit of that legal field, but more so in the medical, and I think last time you talked about the idea of like a nursing preceptor in terms of mentoring, because mentoring is a big component of this, yes, and it's more guided, targeted, however you want to look at it, but definitely more focused mentoring that helps individuals kind of navigate that hidden curriculum. You know we talked about last time how in academia there's this idea, this concept of a hidden curriculum that students need to learn to navigate, especially first-gen students, and that's kind of where I'm finding right now, that that kind of experience kind of replicates itself in the educational I'm sorry, in the professional setting, where students or professionals need to learn right To navigate and kind of not necessarily start all over but start a new setting. And that's a key component to that is mentoring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, it's such a big transition. I remember a student telling me that when she got a job she you know first-generation student graduates goes into her professional position and she reached out to her mom and said you know, mom, should I get into this retirement plan? You know I can put in money and they'll match it. And her mom was like no, don't do it, because if you leave there they get to keep all your money. And because her mom didn't know and luckily this student had other people to reach out to back on campus, the program that she was part of, to get some more answers about that but who do you reach out to if you don't know those things, unless you have that kind of mentoring going on or, I would say, like a very patient HR department that is willing to kind of walk you through the hidden curriculum?
Speaker 2:True, absolutely Right. So I think it takes. You know, a lot of us learn by doing and stumble and, you know, learn from experiences and mistakes, however you want to phrase them, but that comes at a cost. Like, for example, not not directly to first gen, but low income, and there's kind of a correlation between first gen and low income Right, relation between first-gen and low-income right, but over the course of a lifetime. There's a study that I found that individuals, professionals from low-income backgrounds, end up earning considerably less than non-first-gen or non-low-income individuals, even when they have the same major like very same background, similar credentials and, for example, benefit packages, right, and looking at those and weigh those in. So, all those different things, it's a new language I think I mentioned that the other day right, that we have to learn the definitions and how to navigate and be able to kind of weigh those things, especially, you know, coming as a brand new professional right out of college, you know sometimes you might go by that salary, but if there's no benefits or it's a very weak benefit packages, right, what does that mean in the long term? Yeah, not too long actually.
Speaker 2:My fiance and I were talking about retirement. We're still a few years from retirement. But looking ahead, and she's in social work and her jobs you know, unfortunately, have a 401, three B's associated retirement plan, that she's myself working through a lot of public institutions here in California. I actually have a pension plan right, the CalPERS pension plan in California, which now pensions are very few and far between right. There are very few employers that offer pensions, so you know what that means. Right is that you know my retirement is a little bit more secure than hers. Obviously, you know market performance and all those different things do come into effect, but it's something that it took me a while to kind of sink in that. Okay, I kind of stumbled, you know, into the right type of jobs, not knowing again long term that at least for me it's a little bit more of a security blanket when it comes down to requirement than a traditional 403B or 401K. Those little things, right, I mean I say little now, but they're important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's those little things, right. I mean I say little now, but they're important, yeah. And to think that and to be that forward thinking when you're going into a new job or when you're looking for a job, and trying to figure all that out, like what does this mean and what are the differences?
Speaker 1:And you know, sometimes you're weighing like apples and chocolate bars, and you know, you just, it's really hard to compare them without someone there, even even in the pre-job stage, right to guide you to that and then, when you get to the position you know, making that transition in what have you found about, like, about why some fields have that formal mentoring as part of their socialization, Do you know?
Speaker 2:Well, I think, for example, in health, you know they want the individuals to be fully immersed, fully prepared with all different elements, and part of it is looking at from, like, an organizational standpoint or a cultural standpoint, right, that they know that these are the things that you need to be successful, that you need to know along the way to be able to succeed in this field right.
Speaker 2:So I think in some areas it lends itself a little bit better, easier to kind of structure those elements along the way, right. So with you know, health doctors, nurses, you know you have the practicum and they have to be in the field, right's, no choice. So the way that structure, you already have that captive audience there um, to be able to incorporate these, these components, you know it's, it's proven to be very useful and beneficial and in these individuals being successfully transitioned into the field, you know, after their um, their clinical rotations are, are, are done, and so, again, I'm still early on in this, but those are kind of some of the early findings. Yeah, but being able to kind of take away and and uh, think about, like, what that could mean for other fields and, as I mentioned before, kind of being able to expand the conversation to see how that can trickle down into the college setting, into the high school setting and what that could look like. It helps set up all students for success. We were talking to was that about 30 to 40 percent of individuals within the first three to five years end up leaving their field. Wow, that's been kind of somewhat a recent study. So then that begs the question of why.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think, anecdotally, I'm sure you know of individuals they may have pivoted elsewhere. I have family, I have close friends who have done that. Actually, my best friend graduated as an electrical engineer, worked for a few years in the industry, didn't like it and kind of pivoted. He wasn't sure, kind of reflected for a while and now he's a winemaker, pivoted into the wine industry and kind of worked his way up. And now he's a winemaker. Givet into the wine industry and kind of worked his way up and now he's a winemaker. I'm sure there's still certain elements of engineering that he uses in his day to day, but that's not what he studied. And all those late nights and the stress of exams and finals, all the different things, not that they work for nothing, but again, Right, that's a pretty major pivot.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so is your hope that some of the things that you discover will be able to be incorporated into I think you said high schools and colleges, as a kind of bridge for students to start thinking about the culture that they want to go into. You know, beyond the details of the benefits, but what does the culture look like? How does that?
Speaker 2:affect it. I think the big aspiration of my research right is that it can contribute to expanding the conversation and having both educators and students right kind of ask more or ask other questions, right. And I think one of the things in preparation for this that I was looking at was I think it's the why, yes, right. And I thought about different students when I was working with college students directly who came in as freshmen excited about whatever field, and then after the first quarter they were struggling, right, it's not what they they thought and the main reason why they did it was because they were told that they were good at x, right. So an example would be engineering. You're good at math and science.
Speaker 2:You should be an engineer great you know you get paid well and you know those different things.
Speaker 2:But if it's not what they thought it was right, why are they going into engineering, engineering, education, whatever field, to kind of dig in deep a little bit more and trying to find out what that means and be successful in that area? So that's kind of what I'm hoping is that I'm able to help expand that conversation for individuals to kind of think a little bit more deeply and broadly which kind of sounds like an oxymoron, but really to kind of which kind of sounds like an oxymoron, but really to kind of think of other things, for example organizational culture, and that can vary, obviously, between organizations within the same field. But just having that as an additional dimension to consider and talking to as many people as possible. And I think this idea of networking, we put it out there, but especially with first-gen students, do we really tell them what it is to be a successful like, to successfully network? What does that mean? Right, it's like okay, well, career day is here in the fall, Go out there and talk to some employers.
Speaker 1:Hand out your resume a million times and say hi, exactly right, like yeah there, and talk to some employers, that's it.
Speaker 2:Hand out your resume a million times and say right, like, yeah, you're going to be networking, okay, that's one way to network. Yeah, but again, having those conversations and kind of expanding our own definitions or preconceived notions of what certain things mean in this field, to be able to get the most out of it and the most information, and really going back to the why and understanding that this field, to be able to get the most out of it and the most information, and really going back to the why and understanding that I want to be X because of this and this is what I want to do, and talking to different people beforehand and all those different things.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I'm always encouraging students to go talk to we call it career design at Northeastern. But you know career development, career services early to get a sense of what's out there, especially for students who may not necessarily have a linear path. You study nursing, you're going to go into nursing. You study engineering, you're going to be an engineer, but history, english, psychology, plenty more. But there's so many options once you leave about what you're going to do. Career services can start to ask students those questions and give them, I think, some things to think about when they're trying to make those major and career decisions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, I think to that point. I think with certain positions as educators, it's a little bit easier for us to be able to connect to those resources. Right, and in some cases I think that's one of the things that, for me, I saw as a huge benefit is that I had the luxury of time, because the students that I was working with in our programs the number was a lot smaller compared to like a college advisor, right, that might have a thousand, 1200, 1500 people on their caseload, right, they're never going to see every single student and if they do, it's what do you need is very prescriptive approach. What do you need? You need a signature. Go here, versus with other positions, you have a little bit more time to actually sit down, have a conversation, but also have a conversation with other departments on campus and bring the resources to the students. That's the other thing, right, you tell a student go here, go see so-and-so, or go to this department and they might not go Right.
Speaker 2:Right, but if you have a contact, contact is go here. Go see Jennifer.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, that might be more likely, right. What I found is that if I brought Jennifer to the students, then that's a little bit, that's a whole other difference, right. So it took me a while to kind of build my own network as well on campus.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely, especially if it's a big campus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and have those individuals you know come to us. You know so. For example, you mentioned career services. We had a pretty neat workshop on professional etiquette and that was very, very broad, but it gave the basics. You know something as simple as you know how to for for individuals wearing a suit, how to wear a suit, the how to do a tie, the whole button rule, right like that to me. Yeah, actually I was. I spent some time with my nieces and nephews this last weekend and we went to a family wedding and my nephew's wearing suits and all the buttons were were done like well, you know, and we talked a little bit about that like hey did you know that there's this rule.
Speaker 2:I don't know who made up the rule, but no, you don't do all the buttons, but why? I, I don't know, but that's the rule. Um, but little things like that right, going back to the hidden curriculum, career services, or when we brought in hr, right to kind of demystify, uh, benefit, what things meant in a certain concept, all those things right, they really help impart that knowledge on students that they can then take and, as they're getting ready to graduate, right kind of weigh those in. Or if they're going to a professional dinner they feel a little more comfortable about. Okay, which fork do I use? Yes, those little things right. And I say little now. But the first time I went to a formal dinner it was actually at a professional conference. Once I had graduated, right, to see all that spread in front of me, I was a little nervous, you know. So. My supervisor she's been a great mentor even up until this day kind of gave me the basics on the fly, but it can be a little nerve-wracking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And anything that we can do to give students an experience before they go into a situation that's a little more high pressure or risks a bad outcome on the results, I think is really, really positive. My students, I think, are lucky in some ways in that Northeastern has a really robust co-op program and so students are expected to get some work experience, and for a lot of them it does some of the things you talk about in that six-month span. They go in and they're like, yes, I love my major and this is the right one for me because I'm where I want to be, but maybe this is not the kind of company I want to be in or this is not what I thought it was going to be. I'm going to pivot now while I'm still in college and then try to get another co-op experience in something else, and I think for a lot of students they get a little taste of things in internships. So it'll be interesting to see if more colleges offer experiences like that as part of their.
Speaker 1:This is part of the college experience, not just an add-on or an extra to see if that makes a difference, especially for first-gen students who then get this professional network while they're still in college and hopefully some professional mentors, that may make a difference as to how they go into their first professional position.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And with mentoring it's a more involved type of mentoring. Yes, because you can't have somebody assigned on paper that okay, if you have questions, you know, go to gym here like that's your mentor uh, versus jim, taking more of an active role in the mentorship and say let me show you right, yeah yeah, time and resources right like that's. That's a challenge right, but I.
Speaker 2:But I think if we're teaching students how to network, how to look, what to look for in a mentor, how to get the most out of the mentor, you know, it's kind of like the concept of managing up.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Sometimes that gets introduced where, okay, you know what you need and your supervisor might not be there. So you kind of have to ask. And I think for those of us who have been fortunate enough to have great supervisors, that's almost a given right. You don't have to ask because they can anticipate, right. I think same thing with a mentor. If a student knows how to leverage that connection, then it can be a wonderful experience. You know well I don't want to go to gym because they never return my calls, they never answer my emails, they don't have time. Then the mentorship experience, you know it, turns out not as positive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, that makes me think too, that if we can help our students understand that asking for help is a strength in high school or in college and get them looking for guidance earlier on, then by the time they get to a professional position they may be better able to articulate what kind of help they need, because they've been asking for it for a while and feel that this isn't a sign of weakness that I'm asking, it's because I want to learn and grow and you can help me get there. So I, you know, I I like to think that that that kind of experience in seeking out support will be very positive for for students at any level going into their professional career.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the more we normalize it, right? Yes, that's threatening, or you know, any feelings of inadequacy? Because, okay, I shouldn't have to. I should know this already, right I?
Speaker 1:shouldn't ask, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:But you know, like you said right, it's okay to ask for help to normalize that and use that as a strength. So I think there's some programs out there already are doing these things with students. Others can pivot or incorporate some of these elements and I think it doesn't have to be a complete overhaul of what programs are already doing. But you can start small.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. So let me ask you this kind of based on your literature review, your own experience, what you've learned so far, what would you recommend for me, for a listener, to do to plant some seeds that we could do now to help our students make a smoother transition into professional careers?
Speaker 2:I think, is going back to say like the why right, why you want to go into that particular field. But also try and identify individuals. And that's easier said than done, because a lot of times it's kind of like a cold call right, like I don't know anybody in the field. So who am I going to talk to, you know, leaning on friends or connections that they might have through, like school clubs. Yeah, nowadays there seems to be a club for almost every kind of interest.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So kind of leveraging those and I think if we really think about, like, if students really think about, they know more people than they realize and if they don't know somebody, chances is that they might know somebody, like in that club or in that company or in that field. But I think it kind of takes us to, or students, to be out of their comfort zone a little bit right, to get comfortable with the uncomfortable, to take that first step. So I think it's it's going back to having that question, you know, asked of students, you know for themselves, and also kind of leading them in that direction, right, like, okay, look at professional associations in your field if there are yes, not then, okay, leverage teachers or other individuals Going back to career services right, like they can be a great connection to different industries to help find resources in those fields.
Speaker 2:right, and to this day for me, like I keep hearing of professional organizations that are out there that I've never heard of. Right.
Speaker 1:Yes, there's. So. I mean, there's just so many niches, right? If you really think about what it is you want to do, you can get into a niche and you can find other people that are there and, yes, it is very surprising. Sometimes I'm like huh.
Speaker 2:So I think some of those basics right to not completely overhaul an entire curriculum or plan or anything is like what elements can I add to it right now?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think right now for any students that can be graduating this coming year, there's plenty of time right right yeah it may not feel like it to the students, but there is there's
Speaker 1:time. So, yeah, I think one of the things we found too helpful for our students and that also surprised them is that you know our university has a LinkedIn network of university alumni and that, as a student, you can plug into that. You can find Northeastern alumni on this LinkedIn site and connect with them that way and then you automatically have something in common, right? You're both from the same institution and then it can go from there. That a lot of them said they felt like that was at least an in. You know, if they're nervous about talking to somebody, they can be like hey, I'm a northeastern student and it's like okay like I can start with that yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:But I think even that small intro right. Yeah, yes, I've had folks where you know it's just a connector on linkedin or something right. Like you get this request, I'm like I don't know who this is right. Here we might have some individuals in common, but I don't know, right. So I think following that up with like a connection, a reason why you're connecting right, just a little subtle intro, makes a big difference on how that's perceived.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely, it sets you apart versus just I want to connect it's like no, it's a little better if you tell me a little bit more, but absolutely so. Let's say there's somebody who's listening and they're thinking, oh, I have some great information that would help in your dissertation, or this is really cool, like I'm studying this too. How might they get in touch with you, cesar, to either share information or to pick your brain on something?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so LinkedIn is a great option, right. So on LinkedIn, if individuals wanna email me directly, that's obviously another option as well, and I can put my email on here or you can put it on there, but-.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's cmargarito at Gmail.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Pretty straightforward. So I think those are the best ways for individuals to reach out, and I would love to connect with folks. Continue this conversation. Share resources, receive resources yes, more than anything as well, to kind of keep the dialogue going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because I think this is a great area of study and the more we can help our students get to that next chapter of that professional career and then find success there, I think the better off. You know, I mean it's. You know this, I'm preaching to the choir right. For first-gen students that professional, the milestone of a college degree is huge. But then the milestone of a professional job you know where so many of them if they are also first-gen and low-income like really want to help their family is just huge.
Speaker 2:You know, being able to help students do that and help them make that smoother transition, I think is Absolutely, and I think I would also not put the entire onus just on students. A while back and you may have heard this phrase before, but I had heard a colleague express you know we spend all this time making students college ready, but are we having colleges be student ready?
Speaker 1:Yes, are we having colleges be student ready.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think you know same principle applies in in the workplace. Right is, yes, students can come out of university with all these different tools, right to be ready for employment. But what are employers doing to be ready for employees and looking at their onboarding process and all these different things that again, hopefully, doesn't lead to more individuals leaving their workforce?
Speaker 1:you know, in the first couple of years, yeah, and I wish I could name a few. But I know that there are corporations and businesses out there who have kind of programs for first-gen students going into their corporations, going into their organizations, to help them make that transition. So it'd be interesting to see if they have any information too about how that helps and what kind of programs that they've put in place too. So that's probably another area to look at. But, like your friend said, a done dissertation is the best dissertation, correct?
Speaker 2:right.
Speaker 1:So shiny object syndrome and like what I want to study next is probably not helpful. But, cesar, I really appreciate your time. Thanks for joining me today and if you are looking to reach me, you can also reach me at Jen that's J-E-N at firstjenfmcom, and I'd love for you to rate and review this podcast and give us five stars so that other people can join in the conversation and share the joy that we have in working with celebrating and supporting first-gen students. So thanks so much and I will be back next week.