Parenting Equity: A Solution for Workplace Gender Equity?

In this episode of The Tightrope, hosts Daniella Cornue and Jess Feldt discuss the concept of parenting equity and its potential impact on workplace gender equity. They explore the roles of mothers and fathers in caregiving responsibilities and the idea of the "default parent" who often carries the mental load of parenting. The hosts share personal stories and experiences to illustrate the challenges and importance of finding understanding and agreement between partners. Tune in to this insightful conversation about balancing career, motherhood, and everything in between.

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To connect with us further, please reach out to:

Jess Feldt: www.jessfeldtcoaching.com
Daniella Cornue: www.levillagecowork.com

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Chapters

• 1:33 Introducing Parenting Equity
• 12:22 Parenting Equity influences Gender Equity in the Workplace
• 22:21 Starting a Parenting Equity Conversation

Transcript

Daniella It was impacting my marriage at that point because I was blaming my husband and I felt like, you know, I'm a hardcore feminist, like shamelessly a hardcore feminist. And I was like, you need to be showing up more. And he's like, I am showing up. And I'm like, no, you're not. And we just, it was like we couldn't find understanding on this topic.

Jess Not parenting equality, right? There is no expectation that any relationship is 50-50 on everything because that's impossible. But what it is, is having an understanding and an agreement of expectations between the two of you and valuing those contributions that each of you are doing.

Daniella Hello to all of our exhausted and exhilarated working parents and welcome to The Tightrope, a show about balancing career, motherhood, and everything in between.

Jess We are your hosts, Daniella Cornue and Jess Feldt. And on the show today, we are going to be talking about parenting equity. And really, is this a solution for workplace gender equity?  

We're talking today about parenting equity. And for those of you who might not be familiar with the term of parenting equity, it really is taking a look at the roles of mother and father. It really kind of talks about traditional roles here, but really any pair within a relationship and how they share caregiving responsibilities. When we think about it, there is the default parent that tends to take on a lot of the mental load. In most relationships, in most families, that tends to be the role of the mother who tends to take on a lot of that default parent role. Um, and so as we're getting started, if you're like mental load, what the heck is this? Uh, Dani  and I were talking about it earlier and she has a fabulous story to demonstrate what we mean when we talk about the default parent and the mental load of parenting.

Daniella Yeah. I, um, I was in a space and this was right when I was actually building Le Village. Um, and. I was, I just, I was grouchy. I was stressed. I felt like I was pulled in a hundred different directions. And I, it was impacting my marriage at that point. Um, and I, cause I was blaming my husband and I felt like, you know, I'm a hardcore feminist, like shamelessly a hardcore feminist. And I was like, you need to be showing up more. And he's like, I am showing up. And I'm like, no, you're not. And we just, it was like, we couldn't find understanding on this topic. And so one day I, I actually sat down and I created an Excel sheet and I wrote down, I just literally spit out everything that was in my brain that he didn't understand was, there was a plan, you know, it was like, I would give him a to-do list and he would be like, great. And he would tick off the boxes on that to-do list, but he didn't really appreciate or understand all of the steps that it took to create that to-do list. So a prime example, right, would be like Vivie's ballet lessons. This is like one little piece of this. And I was like, you know, Vivie, we said we should put Vivie in ballet. And Nate was like, great. And he would take her or pick her up. We would trade the job off. And so to him, he was like, well, ballet is 50-50. You drop her off. I pick her up. Done deal, right? And I was like, absolutely not. We said, let's put Vivie in ballet. what are all the steps that need to happen in order to put Vivie in ballet, right? So it's like we had to research the ballet. I had to buy her slippers. I had to buy her tights. I had to buy her little tutus. I have to make sure that she's ready. I have to make sure that she's, you know. And so when I started breaking some of this stuff down and I started just listing them out in this spreadsheet, I went on like a rage one day. I drank like three glasses of wine and like listed all of this stuff out. And he didn't even open it or respond to it. He didn't even open it or respond to it. And later I found out that he did, but he didn't. It was so overwhelming. He didn't know how to respond to it. And so that was really when it became apparent to me that, like, we had to figure out how to discuss mental load in our family openly and realistically. Otherwise, we were going to be in a lot of trouble.

Jess Yeah. I love that story because I think it just demonstrates so much the perspective that two different people in a relationship who are caring for a family can have. One person who thinks, I am doing a lot, and the other person who's saying, no, I am doing a lot without fully, truly understanding. and having a view of what that looks like. And that's really what it comes down to with parenting equity, is it's very intentional. It's not parenting equality, right? There is no expectation that any relationship is 50-50 on everything, because that's impossible. But what it is, is having an understanding and an agreement of expectations between the two of you and valuing those contributions that each of you are doing so that, and I think this so that is really important, you don't get to the point of resentment and bickering and arguing and all of those little things that come into play when you have two people who are not on the same page as to the time and energy that they are putting into this very important thing called raising a family.

Daniella Oh, yeah. And I think that one of the things that I think was stark for us was that we started fighting in front of Vivie. It was a thing. We were like arguing in front. And I was like, I was horrified. I was like, what are we teaching her about relationships, about partnerships, about what? We're failing at this. And I think that that was really what pushed us over to really sitting down and solving this issue for our family because we love each other so much. We did build a beautiful family together. we are good partners, so why is this not working and why can we not get over this hump?

Jess Yeah. It's something that it requires such good communication. Yeah. And I don't say that lightly. I think communication can sometimes seem as like, oh yeah, we have good communication between the two of us, absolutely. But like, No, it requires a lot of communication. And I think we still trust. Yeah. And yeah, there's a lot of that.

Daniella Well, can we unpack that a little bit? Because I think, too, back the other part, we thought we were communicating. And we just weren't communicating in a way that was actually making headway. You know what I mean? It was like, we would chat. It's not like we were passing ships in the night or anything like that, even though I know some couples struggle with that because of work schedules and whatever else. But we weren't having communication that was impactful on really dissecting this.

Jess I think it's, so I'm going to cite Eve Rodsky here in Fair Play. Her book called Fair Play really digs into parenting equity. And she really breaks it down into three components. And you broke it down into three components when you were talking about the example of Vivie at  Ballet, that it really demonstrates everything that goes into it. which is for every task that happens within a family, and I think this is, families without kids are families with kids, just, there's a lot more tasks when you have kids.  Right. Absolutely.  There's the conception of something.   There's the planning of something, and then there's actually the execution. Yeah. And I think when we talk about communication, what we typically communicate about is execution.

Daniella Yeah. Or just like the idea, right? And this was something that Nate, again, going back to that ballet concept. I don't know that Nate would have enrolled Vivie in ballet. We would sit around and watch her, and she'd dance around the house. She would dress up. She's a very girly girl. She loves dress up and princess stuff. And she'd twirl around the house, and she was enthralled with going to see the Nutcracker and doing all of these things. I was in observation mode. As a mom, I feel like mom, again, this is one of the many hats that we wear. And I was just watching her. Now, if Nate was by himself in his own world, do I, would he have, he probably would have enrolled her in, I don't know. But that inception, just observing her and being like, I think she would really like this. I feel like we should do this for her. That's step one.

Jess That is the first part of that. That's conception. That's conception. That's conception. And so I think when we're talking about communication, a lot of that conception piece tends to fall into very traditional gender roles. And so when we think about who the default parent tends to be in most relationships, it is the mother. And so I think even as moms, we tend to take on that burden. We take on that load. for the conception and for the planning, just with some assumed gender roles within that. And I think dads on the opposite side have some assumed gender roles in conception and planning on their end that they do. Right. And if you're not talking about those and those assumptions, then it can lead to that little growing seed of resentment. Because then it goes, well, you don't understand what I'm doing. Well, you don't understand what I'm doing. And that's really, I think, where things begin to spiral a little bit.

Daniella I think this is, we're going to talk about this once we get closer to holiday season, but other examples is like creating magic around the holidays, creating, you know, so yeah, getting your kid registered for any sort of like extracurricular, anything that's deemed like extra, I feel like often falls in the camp of, for whatever reason, mothers. And I don't know why that is. We may be to a separate podcast on that, but That conception, those things specifically, I think as a dad, if I was, or again, as a partner, if I was in that camp where I'm trying to look out for that and show up for that, the areas where I find that it's rife is any sort of extracurriculars, any sort of , anything that's deemed like this isn't necessary for day to day. It's just something you, like for some reason, it's just something that you want to do, mom wants to do in order. I'm like, what, you don't want to have Christmas? Right. In our house, at least. Yeah. So I think that that's some of those places where we can spot it.

Jess Oh, yeah. And I think even we've talked a lot about, because we are moms, so we know intimately, I'd say, the female, the mother side of that. I think there are things on the traditional gender role side of males as well. I mean, I'll probably be the first to admit, if there's something that has to do with the house or the yard or something like that, I'm like, OK, you're going to do this, right? Right. And I think we have fallen into some of those traps. And so inherently, it's not feeling equitable. And when we talk about child care, there's a lot that goes along with raising a child. And those specific tasks tend to fall onto the default parent. Yep. And when we think about what we want to talk about this, there's so much we could talk about with parenting equity. There's so much that we could talk about. But I think something that's really relevant to us in our show here is how this relates to how that impacts mothers in the workplace.

Daniella Yeah, absolutely. Because when you're putting so much attention, I mean, I think about when I was working just even now, it's like, well, how much time did I just, what magical hour of my day did I take out to research all of the local ballet companies, right? Where does that fit in to that day kind of deal? I'm usually the one, you know, leaving early to take her because I have more flexibility because Nate's job is different and things like that. So I think again, in our specific past relationship, because again, one of the things that I hope this inspires is that. We showed up for each other. We realized that this was a problem. We talked about this as a problem. We showed up for each other. We changed the narrative of this. So this was a narrative that was a few years ago. But that being said, yeah, in my work day, who's doing this? Guess who's doing this? I'm doing this. And that was a point of resentment for me. Right.

Jess And I think this really showed up over COVID and the pandemic because you No one was just going off to the office. It was all very visible in the home. Yeah. And so I think there are a lot of different reactions to this in some places. I think some dads were like, oh wow, there's a lot going on and I need to step up into it. And in some relationships, those roles didn't shift and it was still mom doing everything. And I think The pandemic really highlighted a lot of the inequities that were going on within the home and with parenting. And I think it's a huge reason that we see things like the motherhood penalty at work. Yeah, because there is the assumption then, not just with parents, but with society, that mothers are the default caregiver. And so how could they have as much time to commit to work? How could they want these promotions? How could they take on these projects? Because we're assuming that a lot of their time, dedication, energy is taking care of things at home.  100%.  And it becomes just like this societal assumption about the role of mothers, which then impacts the role of women and all women, not just mothers, in the workplace.

Daniella Well, and I guess for our listeners that maybe have not heard the phrase, the motherhood penalty, and are maybe hearing that for the first time, The motherhood penalty is related to the gender wage gap. And maybe you can clean this up for me a little bit. But my understanding of it is there's always been the gender wage gap, right? Women making less than men. The motherhood penalty is saying mothers on the dollar make even less.

Jess On the flip side, there's something called the fatherhood bonus, which shows that fathers tend to get a raise or promotions when they turn into fathers because of the equal assumption that they are the providers. And they have more gravitas when they become fathers. Interesting. So there's both. There's the fatherhood bonus and the motherhood penalty. But the motherhood penalty is serious. Oh, yes. Oh, it absolutely is.

Daniella And I'm actually confident that it's actually really, I, this is a part of our investor presentations that we do.  Oh, interesting.  That, like, actually working women have worked, we're not completely closed, but we are closer than ever to closing that wage gap. Where some of these insane inequities show up is that, is once women become mothers, that is what the gender wage gap is. That is that. And then you throw in any person of color, and it's so much worse. It's so much bigger.

Jess So I saved this quote to read during this because I think it's such a great example of that. Post-COVID, during COVID, so many offices went remote. And it was like, oh, this is working. We're going to stay remote. And then all of a sudden, it was like, oh, no, you need to come back to the office. You need to start coming back. And I think a lot of parents are like, no, wait a minute. I don't want to. And so this is a quote from the CEO of JP Morgan, who's talking about remote work. And he said, I think it's perfectly reasonable to help women. It's fine if companies can modify to help women stay home a little bit.

Daniella And I think, I'm sorry, people can't see my facial expressions, but that was like..

Jess   I love to assume positive intent, so I am going to assume that that was meant to be like, we want to help support women. When in reality, what it demonstrates is the assumption that women are the default caregiver, that women are the default parent at home. Which for many I'll say is probably true, but it shouldn't be. We shouldn't be making policies at work that continue to make it so that the woman is the default parent. What we should be doing is offering up equal parental leave. We should be having equal policies so that not that we're giving more to moms, but that we are giving a better opportunity for dads to be more active.

Daniella Right. And I think that, you know, the thing that I always find really interesting too is that you get a dad talking about something like this because they don't get the opportunity to talk about this stuff very often. You get a dad talking about stuff like this, they want to show up. They don't know how to show up. They haven't been shown how to show up. They don't know what that really feels like, but they really want to show up. And often they aren't given the opportunity to. When you make a dad go back to work after two weeks and leave a mother home with an infant, and she's left to her own devices to try to figure out the schedule by herself. There's no – how can you expect a man to buy in at that – or a father to buy in at that point? Right. Because they're not a part of it. They're not – you've taken that from them. Right. And I think that that is a huge part of some of the inequities. I think it starts right there, the inequity that's created at home from that exact point. Yeah.

Jess It really is. It's this cycle. When we are talking about parenting equity in the home and gender equity at work, in the workplace, I think they have to go hand in hand. Yeah. We can't expect gender equity in the workplace when we have such inequity at home.

Daniella But that's what it has become, right? And that's why women are pulling their hair out.

Jess Exactly. And so they have to go hand in hand and have the policies in the workplace that support the equity at home from the beginning so that we can begin to break those cycles.

Daniella And because you can't, because that's what we, and that was kind of what we talked about on the previous podcast, where it was like, We can't show up 100% at home and then show up 100% in the office because no one has 200%, right? That's impossible. So I think that how we give and take at home and how companies are creating the opportunities for that give and take. Right. is it's all tied in. It's like chicken or the egg. Where are we at? Where are we at? And until we break the cycle, we're not going to get anywhere. Right.

Jess Because I think even if you were to take the example of JP Morgan and the CEO, his quote there, let's say you did have a different policy and allowed mothers to be more flexible with working at home. What research shows is that when people are present in the office and they are visible, they'll tend to get the work. They'll tend to get the promotions. They'll tend to do this. And so if we have two different standards, we're going to continue to widen the gap there.

Daniella Right. Again, going back to the freight, that's why they call it the motherhood penalty. Because mothers who take a maternity leave for three months to, God forbid, to be home with their infant child, dads go right back to work, they're seen as like work superheroes, right? And we're the bad guys that are, you know, because we have to put our families first or whatever else. We stopped doing that, right? We started putting men on the same pedestal with us, right? Everybody, you know, you have a baby, guess what? Babies are necessary to our society to be functioning, right? Taxpayers, like, we need, like, we forget, like, we need babies. We need mothers. We need all of these things. They're important. And so I think that that's something that's also a part of this, is that if we had the same policies, everybody was home supporting that family. And it doesn't even have to be linear. I think one of the things that I find interesting is that, you know, it's hard. I'm a small business owner. Creating a parental leave policy was high on my list of priorities, but creating that so that we could afford it was really challenging.

Jess We've now talked about what parenting equity is and we've talked about how parenting equity or rather inequity influences gender inequity in the workplace. Let's pivot a bit and talk about if I feel that within my relationship there is parenting inequity. How do I have that conversation with my partner? How do I begin to even talk about this? Because these are really hard conversations. And Dani, I know you and Nate had this conversation. And so I would love to hear how it went for you.

Daniella Well, I think once Nate kind of had an understanding of all the pieces, to executing something within our family once he kind of latched on to that like it's not just this last part it's this the you know conception of this idea and then it's the planning that goes into it and that you know all of those pieces and once he understood that I feel like it really jump-started the dialogue that we could have with each other um and we both became a lot more open-minded um And I think that that was kind of the catalyst. It really opened up both of our perspectives. And I'll give an example. So Vivie starting school this year was a big, it was a big family decision for us. And Nate was pretty hands-off at the start. He was kind of like, and I was like, what, what, what's going on? don't you care about this? I, I know that you do. And he was like, well, you're the one that's an educator. And I feel like you're more passionate about, you know, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. This is a huge decision for our whole family. We're talking about Vivie 's education. Don't you want to be a part of making that decision together? And, and for, for him, that was like a light bulb moment. He was like, oh yeah, I, I do. He ended up doing all the research, we had a spreadsheet, we went through each thing, we looked at several different rating systems, and he really was able to own that process. And then we were able to come together, make a decision as a family, go after it as a goal, and it really went back to our family values and kind of outlining it as a family value. And I think that that kind of is just a great example of the way that it could go.

Jess Can I ask you a question about that? I think something that often comes up in these conversations is a feeling of defensiveness. And coming to it and having The dad or the partner whoever is the the non-default in this situation saying well, what do you mean? Are you saying I 'm not doing these things or I do all these things And having that defensiveness come up I 'm curious Did that manifest in your conversation or was there any pushback at all?

Daniella I think initially, yeah. Like I said, I mentioned earlier that I had written down everything that I was doing, and I was like, you don't even open it. You don't even read it. And he was like, no, I did open it. And I was so overwhelmed that I didn't know what to do with it. What am I supposed to do with that? And that had to kind of made me pause. I was like, well, I want you to recognize what I'm doing. And he's like, well, I want you to recognize what I'm doing. And so we ended up actually, he created his own little list. And then we had a conversation about what each of us were bringing to the table and how each of us can maybe take on different aspects of helping the other person out. And really, it's about communication. You have to start talking about these things. I think that women honestly kind of have a tendency of like, building looks like we use this, we use like every mistake or every, you know, thing that our husband or our partner might do incorrectly. And we like, instead of bringing it to them and having a conversation about it, we like, store it up and create little bricks. And then we like wall, we create this thing until we are like, well, look at this thing, you know, and you know, it becomes this huge monster. in our relationship that starts to really break it down. And so I think that allowing Nate to have his own things that maybe I didn't understand made it less of a defensive point for both of us.

Jess Yeah, I see that often when I am talking to my clients that are either having one of these conversations or I'm hearing about people trying to have this type of conversation whereas it can go very poorly if the goal of the conversation feels like it is accusing or berating the other person for not showing up because then that other person immediately feels like they're in the defensive about it, right? Whereas instead if you come at the conversation where from more of a perspective of Hey, I want to make sure that we're both feeling like we're able to show up and be equitable within this so that we don't have resentment So that we're not as you say building up these bricks over time where then we blow up and explode and knock the whole wall down Because we feel so resentful against each other not just one person against the other That's really key in making these types of conversations successful And I 'll share the first time R yan and I had this conversation I think that was really vital for the success of our conversation I do think we tend to fall in our family into more traditional gender roles Whereas yes, I do much more of the child care aspect but on the flip side R yan does much more of for lack of a better term, the administrative pieces of our life . He's our accountant. He does all of the wills and insurance and the bills and the utilities. And if there's something around the house that needs to happen, he's the one who takes care of it. If there is I'm taking out the trash. I don't do that. And I hate to say it because it's true. I think I took advantage of some of those traditional gender norms as well without ever asking him, hey, are you OK with the fact that you manage 100% of our finances? Are you OK with the fact that I just assume our taxes will get done? I don't really pay attention to anything like that. And I think that made this conversation for us so much more successful because he was able to speak up and say, you know what, I actually would really love some help with the dog. I just assumed he's the one who's going outside and he's going to pick up, you know, all the dog poop. And during winter in Chicago, that's not a fun thing to do. And that was one of his asks. Can you help with the dog more? Can you help with some of these things? And mine was like, yeah, our kids also have so many doctor's appointments. Can you help out and take some of these doctor's appointments? And coming from it, from that perspective of, I want to be able to help you and take some things off your plate just as much as I'm asking you to help me, I think made it seem like we were going into the conversation together as equals versus it really being an accusatory type situation.

Daniella Yeah, I think that that's really important, having that open, kind of an open heart and an open mind. I think it's hard to get there if you're at a place of severe imbalance. But I think that the right language is everything, right? So going at it with the right language and able to give them credit where credit is due is all the difference. And then you can really start to break down some of these other things. I also, I wrote again, I wrote everything down, not because I wanted to be like, look at this list, but because I needed to give credit to myself. I needed to give credit to myself for all the work that I was doing that was making me a little crazy. You know, it was making me because I was so overwhelmed. There were so many threads going through my head at all times that when I shared that load, that mental load with my husband, I immediately felt validated. And Nate was able to easily validate me because it's hard to argue with a big list on paper, right? And so I think that that was a big help for us as well.

Jess I'm glad that you shared that. Yeah. I think if there's a few things that we can take away from here, and highlight as what makes for a successful conversation. It's the ongoing communication aspect of this. And I'll highlight this even further by saying the first time Ryan and I had this conversation was well over a year ago, maybe even a year and a half ago now. And we are by far due for another conversation because our lives have evolved. We have gone from daycare to elementary school. We've gone from me working only part-time to me almost working close to full-time now and actually starting to travel again for work. And that's putting more pressure on Ryan when I'm gone for 5 days in a row for work. And so what I know will make for this being an ongoing success is for us to continually be having these conversations so that it doesn't build up again. And it's not like, Well, we had that conversation once. Well, situations change, things evolve. Let's keep talking about it.

Daniella Well, and I think that, you know, we talked, you've, you've mentioned before, value-setting for your family, right? And I think we could do a whole podcast on value-setting, but I think it's something that families don't do it all, which is not a healthy way to build that foundation, right? Having that value setting conversation, but then continuing to have it because your life changes and your values may shift just slightly too. I think that this is why at the start of every school year, it is like a barrage of like, crazy upset moms that are like, Oh my God, this is insane because the dynamic shifts and like, or even, you know, I don't know if it's seasonality from summer to school or what it is, but I feel like people get really frustrated and they get kind of like, oh, in this moment. And so You know, maybe it's at the start of school every year that people are having these conversations and, and re coming to the table.

Jess Yeah. Isn't it funny how just from our childhood, the start of the school year always feels like a brand new refresh. We just, we get trained from early on. with September, you refresh everything, especially your pencils.  

Daniella 100%.  

Jess I think the second thing that makes this conversation successful is being able to trust each other and show up for each other. Because once you've talked about an equitable division of labor, you have to be able to trust that the other person is going to be accountable and responsible to it. Just as if at work, we would assume our coworkers, if we give them a task or you delegate to someone, that they are going to be accountable and responsible to that. Because the more that you are picking at it and saying, well, you said you were going to do this. Did you do it? Did you do it? Did you do it? That's not helpful.  But does it do it right? Right. It doesn't, you know, to your standards.  Exactly. Right. Yeah. Maybe that should be a third one here. Letting go that sometimes we have to also be able to say my standard may not be my partner standard and that's OK. But does it mean a minimum standard that we both agree on?

Daniella Right. I think that this is something I see pretty consistently within this space or a conversation that gets up. brought up over and over again, as you know, parents are chatting within Le  Village, is that it's hard to let go and let your partner do it their way, just because they're not doing it your way, does not necessarily make it wrong or incorrect. And I think this came up a lot over COVID, where it was like, dads wanted to jump in, dads wanted to help, but women had a really hard time. And moms had a really hard time letting them contribute because they wanted it done their way. And Nate checks   me on this a lot, actually. He's like, hey, I got it. I don't need your, thank you, peanut gallery. I don't need your feedback. Like, thanks. So I think allowing people to do it their way is really important.

Jess And the last one that I would say here is the equal value of each other's time has to be really important. I think especially if there is inequity in, I mean, I'll be honest here, just inequity in the take-home salary, I think it can become really, really easy to say, well, I bring home more money than you, so you should obviously be doing these things and valuing that over someone's time. And I think for there to be parenting equity, there has to be an equal value of people's time. Regardless of take-home salary, regardless of money being brought in, there has to be an equal value of people's time.

Daniella Well, and that kind of brings it back around to what we really started talking about, which was how inequity in the house can equal inequity in the workplace, right?  So, it's a self-fulfilling cycle here.  It so totally is.

Jess So this here again, as we always say, is balancing career, family, and everything in between. So to end our, to end today's episode, Dani, what's your everything in between?

Daniella So my everything in between is that I've been going back to family values, really focused on travel as a family value. And I've been trying to prioritize that as a family and prioritize that for myself as well. So travel is really probably the only time that I can disconnect from work fully and just be present. And so I'm taking a girls trip. We're going to miss you on the girls trip, by the way. So I know you Maybe we will voice chat or something.

Jess I am sure you will. 

Daniella What's yours? 

Jess Yeah, for me, it is finding space for a new movement. routine or habit. I don't like the word exercise. It does not motivate me. It does not make it something that I want to prioritize. But I do know and I acknowledge that because I've started working more, I have stopped creating space for myself to really get in movement for my body and how my body feel good. So I am trying to get back into a Pilates routine.

Daniella Good for you. 

Jess That's for me. And create space for it because it's so easy to not do that.

Daniella Absolutely. I think that most women struggle with creating or just people struggle with creating space for things like that. So well, excellent. Thank you all so much for joining us today on The Tightrope. We know you really are juggling a thousand things, and it means a lot to us that you listen in. If you liked this episode, make sure you follow and subscribe to us on your favorite streaming networks. And of course, if you know a mom that needs to hear this, or a dad, or anybody else, share us. Join us next week as we have a little fun and invite our own husbands and friends that are fathers to talk about their experiences in parenthood.

Jorge And we forgot the breast pump. We like literally we get in there and we're like, where's the fucking machine at? And we're like, all right, let's go. Let's go to the pharmacy in Mexico. Like, oh, girl. So we get there and they have those bicycle horn pumps. I don't know if you've seen those. So I literally run back and I'm like, I'm ready  

Daniella That's next week so until then just put one foot in front of the other thanks guys.