Activate Your Practice Podcast
The Activate Your Practice Podcast is hosted by the Chairman & Founder of Activator Methods, Dr. Arlan Fuhr. This podcast will cover a variety of subjects. Dr. Fuhr will interview guests from different backgrounds and professions, as well as talk about his 50+ years in chiropractic care.
Activate Your Practice Podcast
Beyond Malpractice: NCMIC's Full Suite of Services
When most doctors hear "NCMIC," they immediately think malpractice insurance—but as President David Siebert reveals, that's just scratching the surface. Founded in 1946 by chiropractors for chiropractors, NCMIC has evolved into a comprehensive resource offering everything from business insurance to financial services tailored specifically for the profession.
What distinguishes NCMIC from competitors? Their impressive 300+ years of collective claims experience makes a profound difference when defending chiropractors. As a mutual company answering to policyholders rather than shareholders, NCMIC takes a long-term approach that has allowed them to return over $170 million in dividends to doctors over 25 consecutive years. Their board, predominantly comprised of chiropractors, ensures decisions always prioritize the profession's best interests.
For doctors facing potential claims, NCMIC offers critical guidance through what can be an emotionally challenging process. Their "consent to settle" policy guarantees doctors maintain control over their professional reputation, as no case settles without the doctor's written permission. Siebert shares how NCMIC will invest significantly in legal defense when a doctor wants their day in court, even when settlement might be less expensive—because protecting a chiropractor's reputation matters more than saving money.
Beyond malpractice coverage, NCMIC offers business insurance, specialized long-term disability policies that understand chiropractors' unique needs, and personal lines including home and auto insurance. Their financial arm provides transparent merchant processing without long-term contracts, equipment loans, business credit cards, and premium financing options. They've become a true one-stop solution for chiropractic practice needs.
The company's commitment extends to supporting over 200 chiropractic events annually, providing campus resources, risk management training, and their "Starting Into Practice" program. The NCMIC Foundation has invested more than $10 million in research that's opening doors for chiropractors in integrated healthcare settings. With growing public interest in preventative care post-pandemic, Siebert sees a bright future ahead for the profession.
Discover how NCMIC can help protect and grow your practice with solutions designed specifically for chiropractors. Call today to learn more about their comprehensive services beyond malpractice insurance.
Hi, I'm Dr Arnold Ford, the Chairman and Founder of Activator Methods International. Welcome to Activate your Practice podcast. Today we are honored to have the President of NCMIC, that's the National Chiropractic Mutual Insurance Company, in case you don't know what NCMIC is. And today we have the President, David Siebert, here. And David, welcome, we're glad to have you. You know, tell us a little bit about. Everybody thinks that NCMIC has nothing but chiropractic malpractice. Now we know better because you insure all of our things for activator in the corporate world. But just tell the folks a little bit about what NCMIC does besides chiropractic malpractice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so thanks for the question, doctor. It's hard to talk about NCMIC without mentioning the chiropractic piece. But we are much more than just a chiropractic malpractice insurance company. Just to remind everyone, if they don't know, we were founded back in 1946 by chiropractors for chiropractors. That remains who we are today, but we're certainly much more than just malpractice insurance. We have in-house a full service insurance agency now so we can essentially provide any insurance products that a doctor or their office might need. We also have a finance company and within that finance company we have a full suite of financial products that are really built around helping to allow chiropractic practices to grow and prosper. And again, everything we do is really built around chiropractors. So the products that we have beyond the malpractice insurance really have come to us because we've had questions from doctors asking about these products and expressing an interest in them, and so we would listen and then over time we're like we should probably offer that product.
Speaker 1:So, in other words, if you want your office equipment insured and that kind of thing, you're in place to do that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Now tell me, do you do auto insurance and things like that? I have not. I didn't know if you did or didn't do auto, and how home, and so forth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we actually do so. We do what you would call personal lines in insurance. I actually have my car and my home insured through our agency. I think I saved about $1,000, if you can believe it a year California right now, or in Florida Not always something we can do there, but we found that a lot of our doctors haven't really shopped their coverage and they haven't even talked to their agent in months, if not years. So when we get them on the phone, we'll offer them the opportunity to take a look at their coverages and oftentimes we can save them money and offer more expansive coverage than they currently have.
Speaker 1:Well, I was shocked, watching the news the other night, to see that 70% of the California fire victims did not have insurance. And I mean you're looking at $2,027,000,000 houses and no insurance. What separates NCMIC from other providers in insurance for car breakers?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, I think first and foremost, it's our experience. I mentioned 1946. We have literally handled thousands upon thousands of claims. We have a team here that is experienced. I think we have over 300 years of claims experience within our claims team. Beyond that experience, we are an insurance carrier, we're not a broker, and why that's important is that when you have a question, when you have a claim, when you have an issue, when you call us, we're going to handle that. If you work with a broker, the carrier will change from time to time and you could have a great carrier, but they may not understand what chiropractic is about and they may not know how to defend the chiropractor.
Speaker 2:I can tell you that defending chiropractors is much different than defending other health care providers. You need to understand the language. You need to understand what chiropractors do. We are also a mutual insurance company and the beauty of that is we don't answer to shareholders. We answer to our policyholders and that means that we can make decisions with a very long-term view, thinking 10, 20 years ahead, not having to worry about a shareholder call or something on the short-term horizon. The things that we do we really think about is this good for the profession. Are we taking care of our policyholders Us being a mutual insurance company also means that we can declare a policyholder dividend, which we've now done for over 25 years in a row.
Speaker 2:I checked. We've given back over $170 million in premium to our doctors, which is something that really no one else in this space can do. The other piece I would mention is that we're also a company led by chiropractors. We have a board of directors that is primarily made up of chiropractors. They keep us honest. They make sure that we continue that mission of helping to grow chiropractic, really focusing on taking care of the profession. And then our leader, dr Wayne Wilson. He's the president of NCMIC Group and he's also our chairman of the board. He's a chiropractor and each and every day he's thinking about the things that we do through the lens of being a chiropractor.
Speaker 1:Walk us through what happens to a doctor in the event of a claim. I mean, somebody calls them up and says I'm going to sue you. What are the steps that the doctor should do? Because I mean, I've heard things like never call a patient back, and that's what the doctor always wants to do, that's just natural to call back. But the answer is you don't. You call NCMIC, isn't that correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean, the best advice I can give and I'm an old claims guy would be to pick up the phone and call NCMIC. For some reason, you know, sometimes doctors are a little nervous about calling in. I can assure you that NCMIC or your other carrier, if you have one they're here to help you and ultimately they will be able to walk you through the process. More likely than not, you're going to be feeling a lot of anxiety. You're going to be stressed out about it, because it's very personal when you have dedicated your life to helping patients and then you have a patient essentially alleged that you caused them harm. So we talked to a lot of doctors who are really upset and we can kind of talk them off the ledge, let them know they're not alone. You know you can have a claim if you're the best doctor in the world, but we let them know what to expect. And there are kind of two paths. Well, there's actually three. So the first path would be just because a patient makes a complaint doesn't mean it's a claim. Yet you could have a patient that, just in passing, said something that caused you to be concerned. In that situation we'll talk with the doctor, we'll agree on the best course of action, which could be to call the patient, but again, you want to hear that from your carrier before you do that. The other paths would be let's say you get a letter from an attorney, or let's say you get a letter from a patient that is demanding money. At that point you should definitely call in CMIC and we would open up a claim. In that situation you would work with one of our claims adjusters. We would investigate that claim. You'd be a part of the process. We would likely have an expert review, the medical records and then we would share with you their findings and then we would agree on a course of action.
Speaker 2:The other path for this would be, if there's a lawsuit, if you're actually sued, that's a little more serious. In that situation we actually retain a defense attorney. This would be an attorney who is experienced in defending chiropractors. This would be someone that we've vetted, that we've worked with in the past. They would be close to your office and they would kind of be your lifeline through that process. Our claims team would continue to work with you, but you'd work very closely with the attorney to kind of navigate the legal process, which can be intimidating and it can take a while, but the important thing to know is, throughout this process, ncmic is here to help.
Speaker 2:And then another piece of information I would share is that I think there sometimes is concern that if you turn a claim in that an insurance company is just going to settle it and our doctors have what's called a consent to settle policy, which means that NCMIC cannot and will not settle any cases unless a doctor gives us written consent to do so. We wouldn't do that anyway, but it keeps us honest and it means that there will be a conversation between us and the doctor and if the fact pattern doesn't look good, we're going to have a conversation with the doctor. We're going to lay it out for them. But if that doctor wants their day in court, we're going to respect that.
Speaker 2:And we've had those situations before where it could be that the case was very defensible. It could have been settled for a nuisance amount of money let's say $5,000. But if that doctor wants their day in court, we'll spend $200,000 on an attorney to go through trial to get that result that the doctor wants. At the end of the day, that's a win for the doctor, because it's their reputation on the line, and it's a win for us because we're probably going to be discouraging that attorney from coming back again trying to get money from a chiropractor.
Speaker 1:What is NCMIC doing to keep up to date from a business perspective?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a very timely question. We actually did a major investment in a new policy administration system back in late 2024, as well as a customer-facing portal, and this has not been a smooth transition for everyone, I can tell you. I have to own that Technology can be challenging at times and some of our insureds the experience wasn't great. I've actually had the honor, the opportunity, to talk to a lot of our doctors over the past few months through this process and I've had to apologize at times because the process wasn't as smooth as it should have been.
Speaker 2:But the one silver lining in this for me has been that I've talked to so many doctors who have been with NCMIC for 30, 40, 50 years. During the conversation they were very patient. They understood that sometimes when you make a change it's difficult. But I also heard stories from them about why they're with NCMIC. I heard stories about claims that occurred 20 years ago. They remembered all the facts. They remembered the claims adjuster they worked with. They were so thankful to have stuck with NCMIC through it all. So each and every day is getting better for us with this new technology change that we went through and I'm confident that ultimately we're going to have an improved customer experience. We certainly have additional security now within all of our platforms, but it's been challenging for us and it's kept us on our toes.
Speaker 1:NCMIC is known for chiropractic insurance, but you mentioned an insurance agency and financial products. Tell us more about the other products.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so our agency. So we started with malpractice insurance. For literally 50 years that was our only product, but we would get calls from doctors asking us questions about what type of coverage do I need for my office or for the equipment in the office, for the building that I own? And essentially a lot of chiropractors are small business owners and they have a need for more insurance than just malpractice insurance. So about 25 years ago we started our own independent insurance agency. It's called NCMIC Insurance Agency or, I'm sorry, NCMIC Insurance Services, and we essentially partner with well-respected national carriers to provide all the other coverage that a doctor would need besides malpractice.
Speaker 2:So this could be a business owner's policy, any type of commercial insurance. It could be a cyber policy. We offer a long-term disability product for chiropractors that's second to none long-term life insurance or, I'm sorry, life insurance we insure for pretty much, if you can imagine it. We can get that type of insurance and also we do personal lines as well. So home, auto, any toys that you have we can provide insurance for that. This allows us to be that one-stop shop, and we found that our doctor's time is one of the most valuable things that they have, so they can essentially work with us for malpractice insurance as well as all the other insurance that they have, if they'd like. We also have a finance company. Oh, I'm sorry, Go ahead.
Speaker 1:Well, I was just going to say you mentioned long-term care and when you're young you don't think about long-term care. I have to tell you a quick story. My brother was in the insurance business and my dad was up in age and had some money laying around and so he was managing his estate. So he said I think we should buy some long-term care for dad, and he said that will cover him in case he has to ever go to a nursing home. Well, the rest of the story is he did end up in a nursing home and that long-term care policy covered the whole nursing home for all the time he was in there and basically saved the assets of one of his farms that he was giving to kids but people and it was like I think you paid it over 10 years. Is that how it works? And then it's done, yeah it can be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes. So what we have is a long-term disability policy, and this is really important for doctors when they're in the middle of their practice life. If they were to get injured and they were to find themselves in a spot where they can no longer practice, it's important that they have a way to protect that lost income. And the beauty of our product is that we work specifically with a carrier, because of our knowledge of chiropractic, to explain that it's not a pre-existing condition when a chiropractor has a history of being adjusted I mean, every chiropractor I've ever met gets adjusted all the time that's not a pre-existing injury. So we worked with them to make sure that past chiropractic care didn't create any sort of a way in which a carrier could decline coverage. So the coverage that we have for our doctors is a little unique I'm unaware of anyone else that does that and it really puts our doctors in a position to be able to protect their income in the event something happens, because chiropractic is a very physical practice and unfortunately we do see that and it's something that's been very popular with our doctors. We do not and I misspoke there, we do not have a long-term care product that we specifically have. I know that we could make a recommendation, but I 100% agree with you that that's a very important part of especially estate planning. Yes, because otherwise you put yourself in a spot where you could really eat away at a lifetime of savings.
Speaker 2:You had asked about our finance company as well. We offer a whole suite of products there. I'll start with merchant processing. When a chiropractor takes a credit card in the office, they have to have a merchant processor that they work through. What we found is a lot of those relationships are complicated, there's a lot of fine print in the language, there are long-term contracts and we had a lot of complaints. We heard about that. So we put together our own merchant processing product and we've become one of the top processors in the US certainly top processor in the chiropractic space, but just an amazing opportunity and it's something a lot of doctors don't know. But the beauty of what we do is there's no long-term contract. The fees are all spelled out. It's very transparent because we have a relationship with the profession and we want to make sure that they don't feel like they're being surprised at any point.
Speaker 2:That we do which would typically be for equipment that a doctor might want to add to his office. So if they're looking to grow their practice and they want to add a laser, they want to add an extra table they may not want to pay for that all up front we can provide them with a loan to be able to do that. We also have a business credit card, a visa card. That is nice because it allows the doctor to have a business credit card so they can keep all their business expenses separate from their personal expenses, which we found a lot of doctors just don't do that and that can get really complicated come tax time.
Speaker 2:And then we also have a premium finance product. So if a doctor has insurance premium that they want to split up throughout the year they don't want to pay it either annually or quarterly we can help them with that. So a lot of products. And again the theme here is that we offer these products because we listen to our doctors. We had calls from them with questions about these. We picked up that there was a need and we put together what we think is a really good program to address those needs.
Speaker 1:What are some of the other ways that NCMI supports the chiropractic profession?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I can tell you that we are a big player, I would say, with the association. So when you think of state associations, national associations, we are pretty much everywhere. We cover well over 200 events a year. We are on almost all the campuses, we are at homecomings, we're at events. If there's an event at a school, we want to look to support and give back in any way that we can.
Speaker 2:We are also very involved in helping the colleges as it relates to helping to prepare students for graduation. We do risk management training in the classroom at most of the schools to help make the doctors aware of the risks that they're going to face once they graduate. And we also do something called starting into practice, which is a very in-depth discussion about what a doctor can expect once they open up their practice and it could be if they open up their own office, it could be if they're going to be an associate. We really cater the conversation to the students that are in the room and the questions that they have. That's been very popular. And then we also have a starting into practice website that has a ton of free information available to anyone there's no password where they can learn about, you know all of the do's and don'ts. They can get copies of a business plan, just ways to help them better prepare for what life is going to be once they get out of school.
Speaker 2:I would also mention we do what's called a Bucks for Boards scholarship, which is something that we've partnered with NBCE and the students when they're signing up to take their exams, they can sign up for the scholarship and it's essentially just a drawing and we've given out now over $500,000 over the past five years to students. And we did that because we heard from the students that they already have a whole lot of debt and they're having to take these tests and is there a way we can help to offset that. So we came up with this idea. It's been really, really successful and really popular with the students idea.
Speaker 1:It's been really, really successful and really popular with the students. Well, it's going to be more successful because now, as you've heard, they're planning on having the students fly to Greeley Colorado for their part four, which means that it's going to cost money to go. There may be some advantages, but it's still going to cost money to go to Colorado and take their boards. So you've got a real good thing. I see you have a podcast here called Chiropractical.
Speaker 2:We do, we do yeah, yeah, that's something we started in 2020, I believe, and you know we look to cover topics that we think will be of interest to the profession. We've interviewed leaders in the profession before A number of times. We've had our claims team do some case studies on there to just kind of raise awareness around what are the things you should be on the lookout for. It tends to be based on current events, but it's been very popular.
Speaker 1:With NCMIC's involvement with the profession. You're around chiropractors a lot.
Speaker 2:What's happening with the profession? Yeah, so I would tell you that there's, of course, a lot occurring. We haven't talked about the NCMIC Foundation that we have, but in relation to our foundation, which is really built around helping to get more research into the effectiveness and to just support why chiropractic makes so much sense. But the foundation also has been involved in helping to get more chiropractic researchers into fellowships at major universities throughout the United States, including Harvard and Yale. But one of the things that we're seeing start to happen is doors are being opened for chiropractors and we think it's these chiropractors who have these advanced degrees. And when you think about what we expect to see from Congress over the next few years, I think that health care is going to be, you know, a big hot topic, and it's really important that chiropractors end up having a seat at that table so that chiropractic is represented and can really have a say in what their future is. Have a say in what their future is.
Speaker 2:We're also, I think, seeing post-COVID and certainly post-opioid epidemic. I'm seeing, I think, a lot more interest from people in their own personal health. I think people are more willing to take responsibility for that today, which I think bodes well for the profession. We talk to a lot of doctors each and every day and I can't tell you how many of them have shared stories with us about they're having their best practice lives post-COVID, with patients who they hadn't seen in a long time really getting interested in their own personal health.
Speaker 2:Last thing I would mention is that I have the honor and the opportunity to be on a lot of the college campuses and I talk to a lot of students and I will tell you that we always hear talk about the next generation is going to be the end of everything. I'm actually really excited when I talk to the students. They are really focused and they're passionate and I'm excited to see what they're going to do once they get out. And, I think, excited to see what they're going to do once they get out and I think the future is in really good hands there.
Speaker 1:Well, I think the Gen X and Gen Zs and that generation is now into the Internet. They're checking out things in the healthcare world and they're probably more educated than they have ever been. And so I think this is why chiropractic is coming up on the scope. They find out we'll go do natural things before we go to drugs and surgery, and you know things like that. They'd rather not do that. So that's why chiropractic is high on the list. So the future I agree with you. I think it's really bright for chiropractic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it feels that way to me. There's a ton of opportunity and I would like to think that chiropractic will continue to play a prominent role going forward.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that you've given us some things to think about here and some things for people to look at. I I personally myself you know the insurance things have gone crazy for housing and for, you know, commercial whatever and to know that you can take care of something like that is worth the whole podcast. You know, just to check in with NCMIC and what can you offer. That's a big deal. And you know I knew Lou Sportelli he's a personal friend of mine for many years and NCMIC gave a lot of money to research and I remember way back when nobody thought much about it, he was saying if we don't give the chiropractic students more education, they will not get into the mainstream. That's happening now. Don't give the chiropractic students more education, they will not get into the mainstream. That's happening now, don't you think?
Speaker 2:I 100%. We're seeing a lot more chiropractors, I think, having opportunities to work in integrated settings. We're seeing opportunities at the VA. We're seeing opportunities with groups. You know things that just weren't all that common in the past. And yeah, dr Sportelli, he's amazing the foundation which he heads up. I think we've I think we've put over $10 million towards research to date and, you know, worked with some amazing folks. I know he's worked with, or we've supported, heidi Horvick, you think of Stephanie Sullivan. We've done work with a number of the schools, including Logan and Southern Cal, and I think that research is really foundational, because without research, I think there's always going to be skeptics and if you can put solid research together, it becomes really really hard to ignore chiropractic.
Speaker 1:So when the young chiropractor comes out of school, to ignore chiropractic? So when the young chiropractor comes out of school, how?
Speaker 2:does he learn where to go get his malpractice? Is it because you're at the schools? Yeah, I mean, I would like to think that if a student is paying attention, they're going to graduate and know exactly who NCMIC is. We are again on almost all the campuses. We have a very robust student website. We have opportunities for students to be an ambassador for us, so there's a ton of way for them to get to know us, and we are certainly at enough of events that I think most of the students know and a lot of the students when they call us they they just say, well, you're. You're, of course, the first call we're going to make and we're not going to call anyone else, and we love that fact. Uh, we, we do tend to ensure most of the new students when they come right out of school.
Speaker 2:Uh, and, being an insurance guy, I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't just emphasize that insurance is one of those things that you hope you never have to use, especially malpractice insurance. It's weird you buy something that you don't want to use or expect to use, but in the event you do have something come up, you want to make sure that you have the person on your side, the company on your side, who's going to stick with you all the way to the end and that's really what NCMEC has done so well for all these years is to stand behind chiropractors and to make sure that they get their day in court and ultimately get the best result possible.
Speaker 1:I don't think listeners out there might know how important this is, but I can think of a case that the doctor did not want to settle and you know most insurance companies say, oh, it's cheaper. Just to, you know, give them so much money and get out of it. He said I don't want that against my name, and I think I mentioned you. We have a representative here of Activator that's taught with me for 40 years, Tom DeVita, and he, if we ever do have a malpractice case, he represents us and we've never lost just because of having 150 peer-reviewed papers and 30 clinical trials, and that's the kind of thing that attorneys live on is the data, and so I think that's the very important thing and I think you would agree with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it makes all the difference. And when your, let's say, a case does go to trial, the jury is going to hear it. But both sides there could be in their mind some question well, who do? I believe At the end of the day, the doctor's records are going to matter a huge amount. But also, what research is there to support that the treatment was safe and effective? And you know all those things together. If you do them right, then you should win the case and we've been very, very successful doing that for a lot of years.
Speaker 1:I don't know if people know, but you have a conference in Arizona, here, you know, every so often, with all the attorneys, you know every so often with all the attorneys, and these attorneys all gather and I know we've given, you know, a presentation to show what Activator does and they love it because we have all the data and that keeps them out of trouble and that's what attorneys look for is where do I get data?
Speaker 2:How do I protect my patient? Yeah, and that's another key differentiator for us. I mean, we could talk for hours about things. I think that make us special. But so our defense counsel seminar. We hold it every other year. We bring all of our attorneys over 200 of them in, and it is a chance to collaborate, to share information, to make connections and to learn about the research that will be helpful in defending a doctor.
Speaker 2:And what we found is our attorneys. They get to know each other. When they have a case, they'll call up another attorney to find hey, how are you able to do this? And we feel it is the best money we could spend in just making sure that our attorneys are armed and they have all the information, they have all the support that they're going to need. And I'm convinced that our attorneys are, without a doubt, the best group of defense attorneys in the industry, because they all really appreciate what chiropractors do. They appreciate that our claims team lets them do what they want to do. We don't nickel and dime them. We don't look to tell them oh, you shouldn't do that. If they want to get an expert from Stanford, from Harvard, if it's the best expert for the case, then we'll say do it.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, david Siebert, the president of NCMIC. It was a real opportunity to interview you and I think we put some things out there that may be valuable to students and to doctors. You know just in the general life that they lead some products that they didn't know about, that we've put out there. So you can call NCMIC and you know you can just talk to somebody if you have a question. And so again to the president, thank you very much for being on the program. We really think we did a very good thing for the profession today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it and I appreciate you, doctor.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you.
