Architecture for kids podcast with Lisa Mazzola Director of Education AIA New York Center for Architecture

 Our programs use architecture and design as a vehicle to foster learning, discovery, and creativity.  We hope that in this process, we can create a space where young people can cultivate a sense of agency and connection to the spaces and places they interact with every day.

The Center for Architecture is the premier cultural venue for architecture and the built environment in New York City, informed by the complexity of the City’s urban fabric and in dialogue with the global community. The Center shares a home with the AIA New York Chapter and has the unique advantage of drawing upon the ideas and experiences of practicing architects to produce thought-provoking exhibitions, informative public programs, and quality design education experiences for K-12 students. It also leads New York City’s annual month-long architecture and design festival, Archtober. The Center for Architecture’s aim is to further public knowledge about New York City architecture and architects, foster exchange and collaboration among members of the design, development, building, scholarly, and policy sectors, and inspire new ideas about the role of design in communities by presenting contemporary and practical issues in architecture and urbanism to a general audience. 
 

Transcript

UNKNOWN: 0:00

you

SPEAKER_00: 0:09

Hello and welcome to another episode of Architecture for Kids podcast. I'm your host, António Cablão. I'm a trained architect, an architectural educator and founding director of award-winning Architecture for Kids CIC. In this podcast, I'm going to talk to practitioners and creatives that share the same passion as I do, to inspire and to engage children and young people to shape their built environment and the creative industries. The podcast is brought to you in collaboration with the Built Environment Trust, the Thornton Education Trust, and the Wells School of Architecture, Cardiff University. My guest today is Lisa Messola. Lisa manages the Center for Architecture's education programs for K-12 students, teachers, families, and the general public at the American Institute of Architects in New York. She has been working in arts education for over 25 years. She joined the Center for Architecture in the beginning of the summer from the Museum of Modern Art, where she was the director of Young Learners. Prior to her work at MoMA, she coordinated gallery education and special projects at Cooper E. Witt National Design Museum and coordinated school partnerships at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. She's passionate about the role the arts can play in promoting critical thinking, wellness, and well-being. Lisa, thank you for talking to me today, and I'm looking forward to our conversation.

SPEAKER_01: 1:43

Thank you for having me. I am as well.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45

What subjects did you enjoy most at school? And what subjects did you excel?

SPEAKER_01: 1:50

When I was in primary and secondary school, I was most interested and engaged with history and really anything related to history. I think largely because I loved hearing stories about other cultures, other communities, historical events. And I also had a very strong interest in museums. I was sort of the kid that was pushing to the front at a local history museum to get as close as possible to the interpreters to hear what they had to say about the various objects or artifacts that were in the cases. And I think that sort of naturally led to an interest that I had in art that came out of an interest in music and performance. And I remember there were so many connections with music I was listening to and art, whether it was the artwork that was on the album covers And yes, I'm dating myself and saying album covers or through the content or whatever was in the music that I was listening to. Those two things became things that I was good at. Although in terms of the art side, I had less of that in primary and secondary school. But when I went to university, I decided to study art history specifically. And I definitely excelled in art history. Yeah. And that just sort of grew into sort of a lifelong interest in the art. And

SPEAKER_00: 3:13

were you supported

SPEAKER_01: 3:19

in your choices as a student? He had that art side. It's funny when I talk to you about it now. I think that it was always there in the environment. I think the only way that there was, I think because of culturally, their generation was one of very practical sort of generation. So I think they were curious as to how I was going to support that and then, or really, you know, what would I practically do in the world? I don't think they would have been able to at all envision the career I ended up happening. And then when I went to undergrad and I studied art history, I was very I was very lucky that I had a professor who was a museum studies department chair who sort of took me under his wing. And he was really critical because he gave me real world art and gallery experiences that I don't think I would have had. And so I was able to actually concretize in my mind that, oh, this is a possibility. This is a pathway to professions and not knowing exactly what that would be. it was still someone who inspired me to pursue it and just go where my interests were going and see what would happen.

SPEAKER_00: 4:50

Your profession was probably not even envisaged when you were, at least the work you're doing now at the Center of Architecture in New York. Be interesting to find out as well that trajectory, how things evolved. You've always been in the art world. You were at Loma, you were at Holocaust Museum in Washington, and now you are at the Center. Be interesting to see how that trajectory unfolded

SPEAKER_01: 5:10

for you. When I graduated from my undergraduate college. I remember moving to Albany, New York, which is the capital of New York. And back then, we didn't have the internet to send out a bunch of emails. I remember literally sitting in front of a phone with a list from my advisor of museums that I contact in Albany, New York. And I remember thinking to myself, really, like, what is it that I, when I start to have these conversations, what is it that I'm going to do? And it was actually in one of the early calls I made I ended up on the phone with somebody in an education department and I remember after I had that conversation that even though it didn't directly unfold then and there that was sort of the first clue in my mind that there was potentially an opportunity to engage with art in a way that wasn't necessarily strictly curatorial but that somehow could involve people and I didn't actually end up getting the job They didn't really have anything available to me. So I ended up moving to Washington, D.C. because I thought, well, the Smithsonian is all over Washington, D.C. I'll just go there. And I was working at a local art gallery, but more of like a framing shop type of art gallery. And I was a picture framer and I was really enjoying being mentored there. And I loved the physicality of that. And then it was while I was at that job where a friend said, I see that they're hiring at the Holocaust Memorial Museum. Why don't you go and interview there? And I did. And they were overrun because they had no idea how many visitors would actually visit the museum. So I was hired in the visitor services department. But shortly after that, I was recruited from the education department or into the education department to work with them. And that was really the moment that I was like, there's something to this. Like I can engage with people, with students, with schools and use museums as a tool for engagement. for learning. What was interesting is I didn't get a job at the Smithsonian, but I actually moved to New York City because I did get a job at the Smithsonian, but it was actually the Cooper Hewitt National Design Museum that hired me to work there in their education department, which is where I initially met my predecessor, Catherine Teagarden, who founded this program that we're going to talk about in the late 90s. And I spent seven years there and it was really wonderful. And I learned so much and I was given so much responsibility and I'm still very close with my colleagues and mentors from that time. From there, that really set everything in motion to really just continue to pursue this field that I became very passionate about and then that led me to the Museum of Modern Art where I was for 18 years before joining the Center and coming full circle with the work that I knew in the late 90s. How

SPEAKER_00: 8:03

much have things changed within the landscape of where you're working from the time you joined Cooper Hewitt Museum and where you are now?

SPEAKER_01: 8:10

Well, the biggest change is the fact that I'm sitting in a physical architecture, which just celebrated its 20th year anniversary. So in the mid to late 90s, as I said, my colleague Catherine Teagarden founded first foundational program, which was Learning by Design New York, and she ran it out of her home. There was no physical space. In the early 2000s, the Center for Architecture was created and co-supported by the AIA, American Institute of Architects New York chapter. So that's the biggest change I would say is that we have this physical place. Although we do a significant amount of what we do in the schools, we also do programming here at the center. We have exhibitions, the AIA runs programs here. So that was a huge change to come back to an actual place. And then I would say the other piece is that Learning by Design has continued, New York has continued to grow and also evolve into a whole suite of programs for youth, for teens, pipeline programs into the field for families, summer programs, vacation programs. The amount of programming has really grown over the years. I would say that's the other big difference now that I'm here.

SPEAKER_00: 9:23

You could start by the legacy that you inherit. Then we can move on to your vision and what you want to bring about to the center.

SPEAKER_01: 9:31

I would have to say I'd have to start with Learning by Design New York, which is the residency program that takes place in the school. This is a program where architects, design educators are go into schools and conduct these multi-session residencies in collaboration with teachers in schools K-12. We serve students in the five boroughs. We have some boroughs where we have more schools, but that's one of the things that I'm actually actively working on now, which is extending these programs into certain boroughs where we haven't been working. So that's definitely something that I'm thinking about. The program has continued to grow in that we have We have teachers who've been working with us for 10 to 15 years. We have expanded the curriculum from, let's say, bridges, neighborhood architecture, the language of architecture, which are probably the three, the program's inception. But now we have a green architecture program. We have sustainability really infused into a lot of our programs. And it was definitely in existence, I would say then, but it's become much more part of these programs because here in New York City, the public school are actually very interested in these issues. And there's actually within the science office at the New York City Department of Education, folks really working on sustainability and climate change curriculum. It's really exciting to also look at these programs and now more intentionally and discreetly align them with culturally responsive teaching, which is a very big part of what's happening within the New York City public school system. As you know, like New York City is one of the most diverse places, most diverse cities that there is. And it's made up of so many incredible individuals with incredible cultural backgrounds. And I think that the work we do within Learning by Design New York is also, it's serving this purpose of really showing communities that they can have a sense of agency, a sense of pride in the place that they come from. That's something that I'm really focused on. The other program, I guess I would mention that has really grown dramatically is the programs for teens and this sort of pipeline that starts with kind of fostering an interest in design and architecture with students at a very young age. So we have students who've come to programs either with their families or through school when they were in, say, elementary school, who then go all the way up to taking part in a very intensive high school design studio. And then some of those kids or some of those students will even participate in our Discover Architecture program, which as an externship in architecture firms, or even come back and serve as a student assistant during our summer programs. So seeing that pipeline and doing whatever it is that I can do to support it more with my team, to build it more, I'm really excited about that because I think that architecture serves a diverse population in the world. And I think by tapping into, especially these students in New York City, public schools were really tapping into a diverse Just to be clear, what age group are the key stage

SPEAKER_00: 12:47

12 students?

SPEAKER_01: 12:51

Kindergarten students start around four or five years old, and then here, high school students graduate, and they're usually, speaking generally, around 18 years old.

SPEAKER_00: 13:00

You talked about responsibly teaching. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01: 13:04

Culturally responsive teaching is a framework and a way of approaching the content or curriculum. If you're a classroom teacher in a way that courts the knowledge and the cultural background that the students that you're engaging with bring to the experience. And a piece of this is also being supportive of students' voice and allowing students to see the alignments between their backgrounds, or in some cases, maybe where there isn't necessarily alignment and being aware of that and being cognizant of that. And always as a practitioner, there's the side of being reflective and aware of the way that you present content to your students, understanding that they will represent a diverse group of backgrounds. And within the New York City public school system, it is becoming increasingly a guiding framework for

SPEAKER_00: 14:06

teachers teaching in schools. In terms of the programs that you have at the center, how do they apply? align with the curriculum? The

SPEAKER_01: 14:13

programs that we have here sort of naturally align with several areas of the curriculum, social studies, science, math, and in some cases, as an example, for a fourth grade class in an elementary school, they study community New York City history. As an example, we have a lot of schools who every year when they start studying New York City history, they'll engage with us to do a residency around New York City architecture and neighborhood architecture. We have lots of different ways that the content sort of naturally, the topics, the big ideas fit into the curriculum. And then within that, we'll work collaboratively with the educators to customize the residencies, whereas we can really do the heavy lift if needed and suggest how the flow and the sequence should be. It's always done in partnership with the educators to make sure that we are supporting and aligning whatever it is that they want to focus on related to the curriculum. And in some cases, In addition to the curriculum, it's also the skills and competencies they want their students to learn. Like a big thing we hear from teachers is they want their students to think critically and be able to collaborate with other students and to be able to share their ideas. That's a big thing that will often come up. So there's the curriculum content areas that we align with. And then there's those core competencies and skills that we also align with.

SPEAKER_00: 15:37

Do you want to talk a little bit about any programs that you actually I'm

SPEAKER_01: 15:43

really excited about partnering with one of the deputy superintendents here in New York City. It's a colleague who I worked with for a long time at the Museum of Modern Art. We are putting together a neighborhood history study of schools within her district, which is District 5, which is Central Harlem, which is in northern Manhattan. And one of the reasons I'm so excited about this project is that we both agree that a core piece of this program that we would like to To emphasize more is the idea of within the study creating school community resource that will then be something that will be a living, breathing thing that will exist and be a resource for other schools to access and hopefully something that can then be stewarded on by the school community and added to and continue to be shared with generations to make the students aware of this incredibly rich history. Harlem is one of the most interesting places there is in New York City and as we know it's unless you sort of stop and notice something or stop and ask the question we often don't have a lot of detail about the places and spaces that exist in our everyday life. I think that depending on who the students are and what their situation is or you know kind of what they're going through they may or may not know this incredible history that exists all around them and so I'm really looking forward to you working with this community of schools and really doing some deep research and being able to highlight the stories, not just from the past, but also from local communities in the present, and even start to envision potentially what can happen in the future.

SPEAKER_00: 17:27

How are you planning to do that research?

SPEAKER_01: 17:29

The framework will be our Learning by Design New York residency program. So it will be a series of in-class residencies, and those are always a double period. Here in New York City, schools have a 45-minute period, but we always do 90 minutes for these residencies because we just, the students and the teachers need more time and we need more time with them. So we'll structure these residencies or we'll model the framework on our Learning by Design New York residencies. And then what we'll do is we always have a sort of customization that happens for a new community that we work with. So I think in this particular case, my plan is really to really emphasize and kind of bolster that research piece. And it will be very similar to the framework that we work within. But I think what we'll do is be very strategic about some of the places and some of the voices that we will bring in to help us do that research. So we have incredible places like the Schomburg Center, which is a local New York Public Library branch that focuses also on history of that neighborhood. There's amazing museums up there. There's architects doing work up there. There's incredible community organizations. Hope is in this particular case to just put some more time and resources to make sure we have a breadth of voices that are coming to the And how

SPEAKER_00: 18:43

do you plan to store that resources as well as make it available to other people?

SPEAKER_01: 18:48

We still have to work out the sort of details for how this is all going to unfold. But I think that what's wonderful about the fact that we now have the internet and digital archives, I worked on a similar program. When I started at Cooper Hewitt, there was a joint collaboration between the Center for Architecture or Learning by Design and Cooper Hewitt, which is a program that was called City of Neighborhoods. And we had literally, I have them at my desk. For Harlem binders that were this thick, and I'm sort of showing about, you know, five or six inches thickness, or I see it as sort of like a digital time capsule kind of thing where it's an archive, essentially, that can live digitally. And who knows, if I'm going to dream big, which I'll just go ahead and do it, it could be obviously like photographic material, narrative or written material. Also, who knows, it could have interviews and that type of content as well. Whatever it is, it has to be something that can grow and sort of exist. whether it's a virtual slash cloud kind of format so that anybody can have access to it. But I think there's also this piece that it could end up also becoming, again, when I dream big, a community mural that we do that somehow is this place that actually people could go to. It could even be within the school that people could go and acknowledge the history of the neighborhood.

SPEAKER_00: 20:03

What do you think is the impact these projects have on the kids as well as on the built-in part

SPEAKER_01: 20:11

Yeah. Whatever it is, whether they're studying their own neighborhood, or we're running through them through different bridges, or we do our skyscraper program or tree houses, like what are these things or who that there's somebody involved that it I think that we can never underestimate the power of a young person understanding that somebody made the choice to do something a certain way. So I think there's that piece of it. I also think that it makes students aware that things aren't necessarily always working perfectly the first time. that once something is done a certain way, it doesn't have to always be done that way. That things have evolved over time and that there is experiences in the way people interact with the spaces and places or new technologies or the way our environment has changed that impact all of these things that they experience every day. The built environment is everywhere around them, but who is making these decisions? How are these things then coming to be and what is their role in that? And so what we often hear from teachers is that in addition to the understanding it brings to the curriculum that they're connecting to, that it through the hands-on process with us and the tinkering and the ideating, that it really supports their learning broadly. They're able to connect with the content, but then they start to notice that and what they love to bring us back for is this experience that students are in the role of really driving their learning. Again, this piece now, a big component, I would say here, and I'm sure this is true where you are and in schools all over that this idea of working collaboratively and through project-based learning is becoming more and more pervasive and

SPEAKER_00: 22:18

critical. How does the curriculum embrace the work that you're doing? And how open are schools to this program?

SPEAKER_01: 22:25

I'll start with that piece about how open the schools are. I think that in general, I would say that in New York City, the idea of connecting with organizations like the Center for Architecture is absolutely embraced. I think in some situations, teachers may or may not have the time because it does require them to just do some organization on their end, which is why it's really incumbent on us as the partner organization to make it as clear as possible about how this work aligns. So the schools that already work with us, we don't really need to worry about that. But whenever we engage and meet new teachers through all the various channels that we have with the Department of Education here, which we have sort of various channels within different content areas, and folks like the Borough of directors that we communicate with. It's incumbent upon us to be very clear in our messaging and our explanation about how this work supports their curriculum. And it's incumbent upon us that we make sure that we're very clear about that, that we make sure we're watching what's happening with curriculum. So as an example, as I might have mentioned earlier, I was just meeting with the science colleagues at the Department of Education, and they're working on this climate change curriculum. Gave us a moment in that meeting to say, hey, this is what we're thinking about in terms of sustainability and And our green architecture program and tell us more about what you're doing. And one of the topics as an example that came up at the central level of the DOE with the science person was that what we're getting from our chancellor of education is that they really would like us to also focus on process and the idea of tinkering and ideation. And so that allows us to be like, oh, okay, that's really great for me to know that I'm going to make sure that I'm very clear with teachers when I speak to them, obviously to this particular person. And that totally understood everything that we do. But like, you know, really articulating that, right? Because it's really important for us because teachers don't have a lot of time. Principals, school leaders, they don't have a lot of time. They need to know at a glance that this is how this aligns and this is how we can serve what you need. That's that piece of us really being on top of that. And as I said before, I would say we're fortunate in that between social studies, science, STEAM, even to a certain degree, degree mathematics, when we look at our scale architecture program, we can align with those different curriculum areas. And then within the arts curriculum, which is different in that there are certain things, it's not a required curriculum technically, depending on which schools you're in. That's another piece that can get layered onto this is the idea of the arts connection, obviously, as well.

SPEAKER_00: 25:03

I assume that a lot of your schools are in Manhattan and all this work can permeate through the rest of the state.

SPEAKER_01: 25:10

Currently, our programs are in New York City, specifically Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn. We're working on a school in the Bronx. We have worked with schools in Staten Island, although we're not working with a school currently. So definitely the five boroughs because we literally have to go physically to those places. So we don't really have, it'd be amazing if we had a sort of network or outpost beyond the tri-state area. And we do work with students also who come in for say summer programs, family programs, from the tri-state area. So New Jersey, Connecticut, students from Long Island, we definitely go out in that next ring. What's interesting is that we've had folk who for years from out of state, even out of the country, have been coming to our summer programs, which is just was so amazing for me to learn when I came here early in the summer. And that that was the first program that I worked on. In terms of New York State, we do not have other than connecting with colleagues like locally that work in different parts of the state. We don't have educators that are all over the state, but it is an interesting thing to think about in terms of there are folks that know of our programs who will then reach out, whether it's educators or people who work in curriculum development. They find us and they want to just have a conversation with us about how we do the work that we do because they're interested in doing similar

SPEAKER_00: 26:32

work. You don't actually have some of programs that you can almost pass it on to the teachers or the educators and they can do it or even online where they can work independently without

SPEAKER_01: 26:43

needing you to go. students and participants and then we do have design educators and architects who who work with us in a freelance capacity but it's interesting that you bring this up because one of the things I'm interested in working on is we can't replace us being there but what I would like to do is package some of our resources in a way we have already things online but create additional content that will just help shape for them how they can put those pieces together And potentially do something in their classroom because I feel like we'll always have students and teachers that will want to work with us. But I do feel strongly and I worked on projects like this when I was at MoMA, digital projects like this, that we can give those teachers the tools to do all the things that we already have that's up there, but actually potentially sequentially expand some. I would really and have that as an agenda item as something that I think we absolutely should do so that as far as I'm concerned, I would love any teacher to be able to do that. able to feel empowered to do what we do on their own if they felt comfortable doing so.

SPEAKER_00: 28:17

What are the parents' reactions and guardians of the kids you work with to the programs?

SPEAKER_01: 28:22

They often, I see this incredible pride and sometimes amazement when they come to a program and see an incredible scale model that their child has created. And it is really wonderful to see that because I think it You know, I think most parents know that young people have this capability, but to hear them stand up in front of a group of their peers and talk about something in an incredibly thoughtful, in-depth way. And I'm actually thinking about our summer programs where they're with us for five days, and then at the end of the week, all the family members come to hear the full presentations by all the students. And this is, again, K-12. It's really wonderful to see them see something in their young person that maybe they that they didn't see, that they now know they can cultivate. I would say joy, amazement, and pride is there.

SPEAKER_00: 29:17

Is there a question I should have asked you that I haven't asked you? And what is that question?

SPEAKER_01: 29:22

What is it that I'm taking away from this experience and how it's fulfilling or supporting me personally or professionally? I would say that being connected to this work is something that helps guide me and sort of help provide a sort of North Star when I have my own moments of wondering about what's happening around me or, you know, where I'm going in the world. And I feel lucky that I'm connected to work and a profession that I can see moments that make it clear to me that I'm supporting somebody else in a way that really kind of feeds me personally. Thank you,

SPEAKER_00: 30:05

you too. I really enjoyed my... Thank you very much to my guests today, to all the listeners. And please subscribe to Architecture for Kids podcast and leave your rating and the review. Recommend us to your friends and family. And to find out more about it, visit our websites. And follow us on Instagram, Twitter and please join me again next week for another episode of architecture for kids podcast brought to you in collaboration with the built environment trust the thornton education trust and the welsh school of architecture cardiff university