Melanie Gill, Parental Alienation Expert, Talks About Attachment Disorders Part 2 - Episode 64

In this episode of the Family Disappeared podcast, Lawrence Joss and Melanie Gill delve into the complexities of parental alienation, and it's profound effects on children. They discuss the concept of ambiguous loss, where children experience a sense of loss for a parent they cannot connect with, leading to emotional neglect and trauma. The conversation explores the roots of parental alienation, therapeutic interventions, and strategies for parents to foster secure attachments with their children. Melanie shares success stories that highlight the potential for change and healing within family systems, emphasizing the importance of understanding attachment as a lifelong bond.

Key Takeaways

• Parental alienation leads to ambiguous loss for both parents and children.
• Children experience emotional neglect during parental alienation.
• Mindfulness and EMDR can help parents manage their triggers.
• Video interaction guidance supports attunement between parents and children.
• The attachment bond between parent and child is permanent.
• Therapeutic interventions can lead to significant family healing.
• Alienators can change when they recognize the harm they cause.
• Children may exhibit behaviors resembling autism due to trauma.
• Role reversal in children can occur in enmeshed relationships.
• Hope exists for families to reconnect and heal.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Parental Alienation and Ambiguous Loss
04:50 Understanding the Impact of Alienation on Children
11:01 The Roots of Parental Alienation
16:14 Therapeutic Approaches and Interventions
21:30 Strategies for Parents to Foster Secure Attachment
26:17 Success Stories and Hope for Change
31:58 Conclusion: The Permanence of Attachment

Contact Melanie Gill - melaniegill@mediabar.co.uk

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Transcript

Parental Alienation and Healing

Speaker 1 0:00

Just attachment is forever, it doesn't go. Your baby learns your smell. Your baby, you know, in the first little bits of brain that it's got, has images of you embedded in all of them. So it's there, and so what it needs doing is reawakening.

Speaker 2 0:20

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. Hi, my name is Lauren Strauss and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast.

Speaker 2 1:00

Today we have the second episode with Melanie Gill and if you haven't listened to the first episode, I would highly suggest listening to that before this episode. Melanie is a professional out of the UK and man. She has a plethora of information and she just has a skill set that I haven't necessarily run into before. It's very informative and cognitive and some parts are dense, but there's so much information and stuff to mine there. Get a pen, a piece of paper, have your phone out, take some notes, look up some of these things she's suggesting, because we're just touching on them on a little bit more of a superficial level because there's just so much information. If you're new to the community, welcome. I hope you come out and play often.

Speaker 2 1:41

We have a lovely, vibrant, kind community. Uh, if you're interested in our free 12-step program, there's a link in in the show notes. It's parental alienation anonymous. There's a bunch of meetings at a bunch of different times during the week. There's a great opportunities to be of service and volunteer or just to build community and make some friends. And everyone understands your story. You don't have to explain it because we're all struggling on the bell curve in different ways with the same thing. So let's do it. Let's jump into the show.

Speaker 2 2:12

I miss my kids, I love my kids, I want them in my life and the pain some days is just too much and other days it's okay. And the more that I practice on my own recovery and do my own interpersonal work, the more that changes. You know and I've used this analogy before and this was told to me by someone else as early on all I could do was ruminate and think about my kids and come up with strategies and different ways to get them back and to make everything be okay, and that took up 100% of my day and then, as I started to do work and as I started to work a 12-step program and you work any program if you don't like the program we're offering, go find a program that you like Find a community of people that feels useful, that are doing recovery work and I stress this, not a group of people that you just get to sit around and share the trauma with People that really want to change their lives, people that are journaling, meditating, writing, having useful conversations and initially, maybe not having useful conversations is the best way to get some of the stuff out, but I highly suggest finding a community of people that you feel supported by, because that will be life-changing and life-affirming and saying that I miss my kids. And there's this really, really, really deep longing and we touched on this on this episode about ambiguous loss, and ambiguous loss is a loss that is not finalized. That's not something that has a complete ending, like when someone passes away, and it's the deep yearning and we always talk about it in the perspective of the parent or the grandparent, and Melanie brings a wonderful thing to light in the show today about that.

Speaker 2 3:44

The kids have ambiguous loss, that they have a parent that they can't connect with and they're hurting, whether they're conscious of it or not conscious of it. They're hurting on our soul level and they can't fully understand what's happening. They don't have the life experience, they don't have the developmental capacity. My God, and just hearing that the kids feel ambiguous loss, loss too just broke my heart open in the show because I never really thought about it. You know what we point out and this person's a narcissist and all this different stuff is going on. But there's several level of narcissism.

Speaker 2 4:16

When I don't say, oh, my God, my kid is feeling ambiguous loss too, how can I be a more prepared parent? How can I be more grounded? How can I do more interpersonal work so I am really stable and available one day, you know, if I have the opportunity to connect with my kids, because their ambiguous loss is devastating, devastating. I can't, I can't imagine going through that as a child. And that's somber. I'm feeling somber, whatever, I don't know what to tell you. But let's jump into the second part of the show with Melanie and just to remind you, please like share Part of your work, and part of my work is to share resources with as many parents, grandparents, children, young adults as we possibly can, so let's jump into the show. So what happens in the child's body and brain as they're experiencing alienation Like, how does that manifest behaviorally in children, developmentally as they're going along?

Speaker 1 5:10

Well, I mean, the harms that are done in alienation are really specific as well. You know, they're not like you find in cases of neglect, although the emotional neglect that happens in alienation cases is often overlooked because parents are so entwined with what is just happening to them and the fight that children are emotionally neglected actually. But there's various constructs that are very particular to parental alienation. So there's things like ambiguous loss, because if you, you know the loss of a parent is in this form, is exactly the same as a death, but children can't acknowledge that. You know. This is another thing that I'm always astonished that people don't realize that the attachment between a child and their parent is in the body, in the blood. It's there, it's absolutely biological, and so when that's, you know, broken, smashed, whatever, it doesn't go away just because your child is turning around and saying I hate you, I've never liked you, you never did anything for me. That doesn't. It's irrelevant, because what's going on is that you know they're having to, through cognitive dissonance, push it to the side, but it's, it's absolutely still there. So the loss of a parent results in this sort of failed mourning which they have to hide because the alienating parent demands that they are aligned with them. So what ambiguous loss is if you can think about, you know, across the world, all the people that have disappeared, you know, or who've been murdered and their bodies never found. So you can't complete the mourning process and it creates this enormous anxiety in someone If your child runs away and is missing for you know, two weeks, if you can imagine, because all the time your brain is hoping, hoping, hoping. All that's going on in these children in the background, and that's unique to these cases and you see it, you know, you see it in children. Sometimes, when I give them their particular attachment interview and I ask generically, say, about the parent who's not there anymore? You know I've had children start to cry. It's completely sort of innocuous questions and they can't stop crying and they are completely unable to tell you why they're crying and it results in childhood depression. And childhood depression is very different from adult depression. Adults can go and say I'm really sad and I'm depressed, but when children are trapped in an enmeshed relationship with an alienator, they can't go and say that. They can't go and say mummy, daddy, I'm really sad because the alienator isn't going to accept that and is probably going to be angry, and I've already told you what happens to do with anger. Children will you know they won't do anything to make their parents angry, they will just comply. So that's, you know, a real biggie.

Speaker 1 8:19

The trauma that children suffer from this and suffer from seeing their parents fight and their parents lie to them is also unique for these cases. You know that's something that you just don't get in other cases. And I've said, you know there's damage to very specific parts of the brain. You also get things like role reversal. So you'll get, say, one of the parents will be very sad but also very angry, and children will adapt by trying to look after them, trying to look after them, so they sort of become slightly like an adult. That's really damaging to children because you're trying to make them into something that their little brains, you know they have a child brain that they can't comprehend, you know. So there's all these different things that are just specific and nobody seems to notice what's going on. If you don't go and absolutely find out what's happening to each individual child, it's pretty horrendous and not understood.

Speaker 1 9:25

Oh, I will say one other thing. There's a lot of the time children's behavior when they have to inhibit all you know their negative emotion because they're living with this dangerous parent. It's going to come out at some point and what you tend to get you know they crush it down and crush it down, and crush it down. And then they'll to get you know, they crush it down and crush it down, and crush it down. And then they'll go into, say, the more relaxed surroundings of school, where things are not so anxious, or a contact with their non-resident parent, and their anger will come out because they're not so clamped down and it'll come out in really you know over-the-top behavior and it'll come out in really you know over-the-top behavior swearing, shouting, smashing things.

Speaker 1 10:13

The number of children who do this and are then diagnosed with ADHD and medicated is horrendous. And that's not what this is. This is trauma. The other thing is is that children who are in the presence of a very dangerous parent and having no contact with the other parent, the more stable parent is, they become, the system becomes so frightened that what they do is they try and control what's coming out of their mouth so they don't get it wrong. And you know their behavior and it begins to resemble autism, begins to resemble autism. So the number of children misdiagnosed with autism in these cases is also off the scale.

Speaker 2 10:55

Wow, that is some crazy information that I haven't heard before and I just wanted to touch on something that you brought up.

Speaker 2 11:01

I talk with a lot of parents and grandparents and the idea of ambiguous loss is always positioned through the eyes of a parent and that you're bringing in that the child is feeling.

Attachment, Alienation, and Healing Strategies

Speaker 2 11:10

Ambiguous loss also is not something that we usually discuss, so I love that you brought that in there and that's incredible useful. Even just thinking about my kids and what they're going through, I never really thought that they were feeling those same emotions and struggling with the same things that I'm struggling with, as we're both still alive but not connected, and that they have such a deep wound. And within the context of the ambiguous loss, and I guess my follow-up question would be like we see parental alienation cases in different forms and shapes and like a lot of parents are like wow, I didn't see that coming, I don't know what was happening, but in my experience it seemed like parental alienation and this attachment style and the enmeshment and stuff is from birth and it's always there and it just gets to a tipping point where it falls into full-blown parental alienation. Is that accurate or does it take later stages in life, where it becomes more ingrained in the child.

Speaker 1 12:04

Do you mean for the parent or the child?

Speaker 2 12:06

I'm saying, for the child in my experience, is getting alienated from birth and the alienation is occurring in this attachment style and taking care of the parent and not getting all the needs met and them having to adapt to this parent. That's not fully there. Isn't that like the roots of alienation that started right there? It not happening to four years old, to eight years old, to 20 years old.

Speaker 1 12:27

It started right from birth it can happen at any time. I mean, the thing is that when you get to the complex cases, the psychopathology that you see in the alienator has has always been there, has always been there, and so that the attachment relationship with the child will have anomalies. But the point is, very often you will see that the parent that goes on to be the alienator has got together with someone who is very stable and the family unit has actually quite often been really, you know, quite okay, it's been quite okay and there's been a sort of a balancing thing going on so that the children can be really quite OK. But what happens when stress enters the situation is that the parent with the vulnerabilities is going to use pretty primitive forms of avoiding the danger over and above the more stable parent who really doesn't know what the heck is going on, and at that point trauma can hit all of the family like that, and then it can go on.

Speaker 1 13:37

Narcissism is the only form of sort of psychopathology that can actually develop at any point in your life, and that's what I found, and that's really weird. What narcissism basically is. It's a way the brain protects itself, an extreme way. The brain protects itself by not trusting anybody else at all and only trusting the self and the belief is only in the self. And to get to that point you have to be in a in a very traumatic situation with existing vulnerability. So what I found is that you can have, say some, a parent who's been really quite stable. They're hit with the. Suddenly the other parent you know has an affair, goes off, starts alienating and just for, say, several months they can be really quite narcissistic themselves just thinking about themselves because their brain is terrified.

Speaker 1 14:42

But what you get with the full-blown thing that's come from, you know, a previous vulnerability, is you get the full-blown. Only the self is important, nobody else matters, and of course we see that in the appallingly toxic behavior. So you, across your life, you can adapt, stabilize. You know, maladapt, stabilize, adapt in a different way. It just goes on and on and on. You're adapting all the time. It never, never ends. Which also means, of course, that you can get in there and help people. You know people are not stuck in an attachment pattern, say, or a way of being. You can go and do something about it, hopefully.

Speaker 2 15:27

And even, in extreme cases, were kids and other young adults or adults, have been subject to this behavior and to the narcissism and to the, to the alienation and the semeshment, and have been regulating their parents nervous systems for 20, 30 years. They still hope to go in there when they're ready to do their own work and, I guess, re-attach in a different way to their current and healthy relationships.

Speaker 1 15:51

Yes, and I mean, you know, the thing is the brain damage. Is the brain damage, is the brain damage? But the brain has enormous plasticity, so other areas can be, you know, can be supported, you know, and that sort of thing, and there are so many specialist interventions out there. I have dealt with two people who were psychopathic and against. If you think of psychopathy as a way of protection, you know a very extreme form of the brain protecting the individual. So these people have been, you know, hideously traumatized and have come to the place where they are, like, you know, aliens and robots in how they deal with other people. And I have recommended sensory motor therapy, which is focusing on the body instead of the mind, because to try and get, you know, a psychopath to engage meaningfully with a therapist is just not going to work. And basically, both these psychopathic individuals wanted to do something. That's the important thing. And the sensory motor therapy over, say, three years, the effect was just astonishing.

Speaker 2 17:09

Is sensory motor therapies like a somatic form of therapy? Yes, okay.

Speaker 1 17:14

You know there are so many good specialist therapies out there and that's what you need for these cases. Standard therapies, you know, don't work and everybody needs help, Absolutely everybody.

Speaker 2 17:52

You know, not just you know the children, but also the alienated parent and the alienator, where the one parent is kind of like feeding on the other parent or getting their emotional needs met and then that emotional need is switched to the child. Do you see that correlation between parents? Does that question make even sense to you?

Speaker 1 18:09

it does slightly, but I mean the thing that know, when you look at parents who continue to fight and you have to look at again, if you look at the way they've adapted to you know, their individual backgrounds, so much of it is driven by projected revenge in one person and a real hatred and in the other, a real hatred and fear and we get down to the level of children in a playground. You know, even I've dealt with a couple of families where both parents were, you know, lovely parents. They were lovely parents but they could not let go. They could not let go and so they carried on fighting in court over the most petty, ridiculous, you know stupid things which were causing their very stable children to become stressed and trying to get them to just stop.

Speaker 1 19:06

I'm joining together with my partner, who is a schema therapist. That's a specialist form of therapy which is brilliant, and we've both trained in this specific form of couples therapy. Now, I'm not a therapist. I trained in it to see what it did. He is a therapist, he's trained in it, and one of the things that it does is you're not allowed to bring the past into the room. You're not allowed to look at the past. You're not allowed to go. Yeah, but you did and you did. You're not. You can't do it. It's extraordinarily directive. You know it's like stop, you have to do this, you have to look at that. You can only look at what's happening in the present now and sort that out. And you sort out the past in individual therapy because it's your problem. It's your problem. So we're hoping to bring this in, you know, to put that out there at some point as well. Clinging on to the past, you know.

Speaker 2 20:14

I've never heard of that kind of therapy and it makes perfect sense that it's individual therapy for the past, to work out your own traumas and to be present with what's happening. That's genius. So switching gears a little bit here, like what strategies do you recommend for parents to foster secure attachment with their children, as there's conflict and alienation? Is there something that a targeted parent or a parent that feels like they're losing grasp with their kids, is there some behaviors that you would suggest that would be really useful for them?

Attachment and Healing Interventions

Speaker 1 20:44

One of the things I suggest is that they start doing mindfulness. Suggest is that they start. They start doing mindfulness and mindfulness helps. Obviously helps in in calming and not being triggered, because the thing that that maintains the conflict is the triggering, you know, and if you are being triggered, the other thing to do is to go and have some emdr so that it helps you, because you'll probably find that the back of the triggering are things that have gone on in the past, but also the stress of what goes on gives the more stable parent a very specific form of post-traumatic stress, which I'm hoping to do a webinar on, and it just means that you know they get more and more anxious, more and more triggered. So mindfulness and some EMDR, which is eye movement, desensitization, processing, and it's very effective. You only need, you know, a few sessions. It's not something that you're going to be in for years and it will help you deal with seeing or dealing with your ex-partner, because you need your child's brain to be connecting with your calm brain. That's what you need when you see your child and when you interact with your child.

Speaker 1 22:03

Now, in terms of if there is a transfer of residence, what parents need to realize is that you are taking back into your home a very damaged child and quite a lot of professionals think, well, we just, you know, give the child back to the non-harmful parent and it'll be fine. It won't be. Your child will then adapt to you and may use role reversal or whatever. The child will always adapt to you, not the other way around, because you are the authority figure. So you need therapy with your child and there is video interaction guidance, which is stunning and basically it supports the attunement and it's not invasive.

Speaker 1 22:52

It involves taking a film of you and your child and then the therapist edits the film. Sometimes they'll only get, say, one still of a moment of attunement with your child, where you have the you know, as you said at the beginning Lawrence, that beautiful eye contact and you just, you just feel good. You feel good and the therapist well, what was going on there, and get you to talk around what you think was going on at that moment. And then what happens is the next time you go and see your child you will automatically do whatever it was you did and over a couple of sessions that attunement grows and you must remember that is neurological attunement that's going on, and with older children. You can also do it to them. You can show them the film and say what was going on there, and then they will go and try. It's an amazing intervention and it can be done online.

Speaker 2 23:53

What was that called again?

Speaker 1 23:54

Video Interaction Guidance.

Speaker 2 23:57

Video Interaction Guidance Video Interaction, guidance. Again, you're giving me some resources and words and names that I've never heard before, but I just want to.

Speaker 1 24:04

It's brilliant and it's really good for if you're having. You know, even if you're having contact in a contact center, it can be done.

Speaker 2 24:12

So just to touch on a couple of things that you said. So mindfulness, we're talking about meditation, breath meditation, breath meditation, basic stuff, like really just calming your nervous system. You know, and that sounds like a great strategy your karma the kids will be karma. You won't be as reactive as in triggered and the kids don't need to take care of you and then they just attach to this really secure person. That that's grounded. And uh, and you also mentioned emdr, which is rapid eye movement therapy, and it's fantastic. For anyone out there that hasn't tried it, you can do it online. There's apps. You do it with a trained psychologist or a trained person, emdr, and it's wonderful to reprogram some stuff. So those are some wonderful pieces of advice to throw out there to the folks. And I think it's always nice to also share some really great success stories. Do you have any, a couple stories you can share with folks with a, with a couple cases that you've worked that have been like a really positive outcome?

Speaker 1 25:08

I mean there's always the problem that you, you give the specialist interventions and then outside influences can come in and wreck the whole thing because they don't get it or they won't provide the funding or whatever. But I've had cases where it's been the alienator, after reading my report, has thought oh my god, oh my god. And they've actually thought about the children and in some of the cases I've done you know the really complex ones that doesn't happen. So it's. You know, one of the keys to success is getting the alienator to understand the harm that they are doing to their children physically, mentally and neurologically. And when they say, oh my goodness, that's when change has been for the whole family. I mean, I've done lots of cases where we've got, you know, the children have transferred residence and that is all lovely, that goes beautifully. You put the therapy in and everything you know and the children come back from being brainwashed and that sort of thing.

Speaker 1 26:26

But what's left on the outside is is the alienator and at the end of the day they need help. You know what a child is doing is losing, still losing another parent. You know so. But when you can get. Still losing another parent, you know so. But when you can get and, as I said, I have had the actual alienator to say, right, enough is enough, we're going to do this work. It's been fantastic and you will get. You absolutely get.

Speaker 1 26:50

You know bumps in the road, and I always say this you know this is not going to go smoothly. We are going to get bumps in the road and that's where you put in. You know, if you going to go smoothly, we are going to get bumps in the road and that's where you put in. You know, if you can get to the point where the parents can actually just be civil to each other, you'll find that to begin with they're being triggered and you give them emdr so that they're able to be civil without being triggered just by the mere sight of the other parent. And and then you know, and that can move and it takes time.

Speaker 2 27:24

It takes time right, yeah, and that's like not the story that I expected you to tell me, which actually makes me really hopeful that there's actually some parents with a report or some event that happens that they can actually see some of the moving parts that they couldn't see before, and then the whole family system can actually transform. So that's a wonderful inflection point in the family system. I'm so curious is it like someone trying to put together a standardized form or some kind of questionnaire or some kind of assessment so you can create these um studies or or you know, these reports, so that more people can have access to it? Would there be more change, of more families have access to actually see some of the dynamics that are playing out in their family that they they can't physically um identify?

Speaker 1 28:14

I mean, this is what happens If you give it in, you know, an assessment where there is no way out. There is no way out. Everything is explained, down to from the minute you were born. This is what's happened, you know if. And also to say, and you're lying about that and that's not the truth and this, but this is why you're doing that, you know. And then you have this is why you're doing that, you know. And then you have, say, a strong judge who goes right.

Speaker 1 28:39

We're dealing with the truth here. We're not dealing with a hypothesis. We're not dealing with. This is what we've seen. Here's the behavior. This is the explanation of the behavior, with you know, with, then, a direct route to what you need to do to change that particular behavior and support other behaviors. You know, if you give something that is so watertight that there's no way out, then it gives you, you know, far fewer options, and that's my goal, that is my goal. That's my goal. That is my goal. So that and that. So, every time I'm questioned in court, it's never to do with the report, it's to do with an attack on me.

Speaker 2 29:38

Wow, that is sad. That is sad because the report sounds incredible.

Speaker 1 29:39

It sounds like such an opportunity for growth and change and acknowledgement and to move through the system in a really efficient way versus these three, four, five-year cases. But this form of assessment, this form of attachment assessment, is obviously being used by thousands of professionals across the world in all sorts of different situations. And that's the point. The information it can bring can help. A clinical psychology assessment, as per per the say, the uk, which only looks and describes the behavior you're only getting. You know 15 of the information you need to actually intervene.

Speaker 2 30:08

Wow, wow, well, we're getting uh, we're getting to the end of the interview, melanie, and it's been incredible and you're so full of knowledge and information. It's just like it's too much. You know too much and it's really useful, but I'm like I gotta go back and listen over and over again, because it's been wonderful and informative, and a lot of different words to kind of disseminate and seep in my system and a little bit of research to do so. Just as we're winding up here, is there any last words you'd like to share with everyone, or something, finally, that you'd like to say that feels important to share before we say goodbye?

Speaker 1 30:48

Yeah, just attachment is forever, it doesn't go. You know, your baby learns your smell. Your baby, you know, in the first little bits of brain that it's got, has images of you embedded in all of them. So it's there, and so what it needs doing is reawakening that's very profound attachment is forever.

Speaker 2 31:15

What a what a wonderful way to wrap up the show. And thank you for your time, your expertise, the work that you're doing out there advocating for all of us. It is very, very deeply appreciated. So thank you, thank you, thank you and thank you, laurence, thank you wow, wow, wow, wow.

Speaker 2 31:30

What a great way to to end the show with. With the quote by melanie attachment is forever, right, like our attachment with our kids is forever, and and we're always navigating what that looks like. And with trauma, and with trauma as she spoke about in the interview, there there's hope, there's, there's way to work with it. And she also ended with such a, with such a great takeaway, like I was hoping for some happy court story and I wasn't expecting her to say that some of the best things that she's seen is when the alienating parent actually finally gets to see that there's something going on in the family system and maybe see some of their part and they say, oh my god, this is something we need to work on. That that gives me some kind of hope. And there's something deeper there to dig into. There's something in there like I feel there has to be a way, there has to be a useful tool, um therapy, to, to, to get to that, to get to that part. You know what I mean, and maybe it's just a wish and a hope that there's a way for the light bulb to come on for more parents that are going through this, but I gotta believe that there is an inflection in the family system. Some points, some models, some therapy, some something, something. I know there's something there. I can't come up with the words, I can't, I can't think about it. I feel, uh, maybe I feel saturated after the interview. So, again, that's the best that I can do today. I'm like you. I'm just another parent, another grandparent out there, just kind of like struggling and trying to do my part to advocate for change and share some information with different people, and today I'm feeling tired. I'm feeling tired. So thank you for coming out to play today. It was a great show and would love to hear from you. Email me at familydisappeared, at gmailcom, and we will get back to you.

Healing and Growth in Relationships

Speaker 2 33:21

And yeah, yeah, I need some love today. So I hope you're all sending me a little bit of love. You know and I finished the show with, in case no one's told you today I love you and I'd like to feel some love today too. Again, feeling a little bit tender, a little bit sad. Yeah, the more I learn at times, the more time I need to be quiet and to let that stuff settle and integrate it into my body and into my life. So thank you for coming out to play today. Again, I love you. I hope you have a beautiful day and I hope to see you around the neighborhood and maybe even at a meeting. Ciao, thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together, we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.