Family Disappeared

Alienation, Estrangement, And The Path To Healing Explained By Expert Dr. Sue Cornbluth Part 1 - Episode 69

• Lawrence Joss

Share episode

In this episode of the Family Disappeared podcast, Lawrence Joss interviews Dr. Sue Cornbluth, a national parenting expert specializing in parental alienation and estrangement. The conversation delves into the complexities of family dynamics, emphasizing the importance of self-connection and accountability in healing relationships.

Dr. Sue shares her insights on the differences between alienation and estrangement, the necessity of self-compassion, and effective communication strategies for reconnecting with children and grandchildren. The episode highlights the long-term nature of healing and the need for parents to take responsibility for their actions while fostering healthier relationships.


Key Takeaways

  • Self-compassion is crucial for emotional healing.
  • Reconnecting with oneself is essential before reconnecting with children.
  • Alienation involves one parent brainwashing the child against the other.
  • Estrangement is when children distance themselves from their parents due to various factors.
  • Accountability means feeling the impact of one's actions on one's children.
  • Healing takes time and requires self-awareness and coping skills.
  • Effective communication is key to rebuilding trust with children.
  • Acceptance does not mean liking the situation but recognizing it.
  • Parents must meet children on their terms for reconnection.
  • No one is a perfect parent; mistakes are part of the journey.


Dr Sue Cornbluth - www.drsueandyou.com

Don't forget to Subscribe to our YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@parentalalienationadvocates

If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:

Email-      familydisappeared@gmail.com

Linktree: https://linktr.ee/lawrencejoss
(All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)

Please donate to support PAA programs:
https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=SDLTX8TBSZNXS

This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

Speaker 1:

This is about choices. You have to make choices for yourself. Do you want to stay stuck or do you want to grow and heal? Because if you don't change here, nothing around you is going to change either. You've been hurt. Your children have been hurt. It's not just one or the other, it's both. And when we repair relationships, it's between two people, not just one person meeting your needs.

Speaker 2:

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode, we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. Hi all, my name is Lawrence Joss and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast, and today we have Dr Sue on the show, and Dr Sue is a hoot and she's doing some incredible work out there with parents and a lot of work with grandparents. So this is going to be a really wonderful interview and she's really direct and has a really great style. There's a lot of folks out there that are professionals that are doing a lot of their work from more of a theoretical standpoint and she's actually digging into our behaviors, how we show up, how we can resource ourselves, how to give ourselves, uh, self-compassion, and she has some great, great trainings available and she also offers a free 30-minute consultation. So definitely listen to this and you're going to love what she has to offer. And if you're new to the community, welcome to the community. We're a 501c3 nonprofit. All our services are free. We have a 12-step support group community and it's something very similar to what Dr Sue is teaching. The 12-step program gives you the opportunity to take responsibility for your life, to find your way home emotionally and spiritually so you can have a relationship with anyone, and we talk about this in the interview, this idea of I'm coming here just to get my kids back, but it's really coming here to find yourself, so you can have healthy relationships with everyone in your life. There's a bunch of other great resources in the show. Notes, or Dr Sue's information will be down there. There'll be stuff about the Family Hope Project, which is an advocacy platform. We have online, the 12-step group, like I mentioned, and so much more, and that's a lot out of me. Let's jump into the show.

Speaker 2:

When I started to struggle with the relationships with my kids and I had no verbiage for what was happening, whether it was parental alienation, estrangement, trauma, whatever it is that is useful to you now, like all those words are useful at different times to me and it fluctuates, but I had no contextualization of what was going on and I just wanted my relationship with my kids to be simple and easy and at times I just wanted my kids to tell me that they loved me, that they cared about me. I was so disembodied, I was fragmented and I was looking for something from my kids and I had no idea at that time that it wasn't my kids' responsibility to give me anything. It was my responsibility to resource myself, tend to myself, find other resources out there that could support me. And even today, with all the work that I've done, sometimes I flip back into that place where I just love me, you know, and I'm learning, and so many of these interviews that we're doing as a community and that I get to help facilitate are really putting a spotlight on places, even today, where I continue to not show up in the most useful way and that I can have compassion and love myself for the way that I'm showing up, acknowledge mistakes that I made, take ownership for them and continue to change and grow.

Speaker 2:

So just looking back on all the different mistakes I have made hurts. That sucks, you know, and if you're like me, you know you want to do this right and I really enjoyed the interview with Dr Sue because there is no right. You know, when she talks about good enough parenting and I'm doing the best that I can and it's good enough parenting and I've made mistakes and I've done some really great things and I'm learning to love myself and have compassion for myself most days, and some days it just doesn't feel so good. So let's jump into the show and see what Dr Sue has to say. Dr Sue, it is so wonderful to have you on the show. Could you please just take a moment and introduce yourself to the audience?

Speaker 1:

Sure, so I'm Dr Sue Kornbluth. I am a national parenting expert in high conflict, divorce and parent alienation, as well as estrangement situations that parents are going through. I've been doing this work for a long time now. I'm also a contributor to Court TV, which I am happy about because I get to talk about this on national television as well, and they've given me a platform to do that, especially in terms of divorce cases. I also do a lot of work in grandparent alienation and estrangement, and you know my mission in life here is really to reunite parents with their children when there is disconnection, and my belief in doing that has been and always probably will be that in order to do that, you must reconnect with yourself first, emotionally, before you can ever reconnect with your children or your grandchildren. For me, there's no other way to do it.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for that, sue, and there was so much just in your introduction that I want to ask you about. But before we get to that, could you just share contextually with the audience a little bit about your maybe your own personal struggle from this external world to coming back to your own interpersonal world and what that's done for you and what that looks like?

Speaker 1:

Sure, so I am not a alienated child.

Speaker 1:

However, I had alienation within my own family and, to be honest, I never even realized this until much later in life, and it was on my father's side.

Speaker 1:

It was my grandmother, actually, who was trying to basically alienate me or estrange me from my mother, and I don't talk about this a lot, but I feel like on your podcast today it's important to talk about that. A lot of people don't know that about me and I didn't realize that till later in life. But now that I look back, you know, every time I was in my paternal grandmother's environment, she was constantly talking about my mother in negative ways and trying to turn me against her. And when I was about 15 or 16 years old I feel like I have an old soul and was probably meant to do this for most of my life I confronted her and I said if you talk about my mother one more time, I'm never coming back here again. I just wanna let you know that, because what you're saying about my mother is not true. I live there, I know what goes on and after that I had an estranged relationship from her.

Speaker 2:

Okay, Right, wow, that's intense as a 15 year old, and to be able to actually advocate for yourself, that's you know I can't believe it.

Speaker 1:

I think it was like meant to do this work and at 15 years old I had had it. It was a long period of time. I tried to go to my father. My parents were married 47 years. They were not divorced either. I went to my father many times to have this discussion and he always wanted me to try with her and, out of respect, I did. I tried, but I could not keep bringing myself to be hurt like that. And so sometimes, when you're put in these situations as young kids, right, you're only looking at it from your adult perspective, but look at it from the child's perspective. Every time I was in this woman's presence, I was being hurt over and over.

Speaker 2:

Wow, that is craziness and I just want to clarify, also for the audience. When you're talking about alienation and you're talking about estrangement, like how do you define them and is there an intersectionality between the two from your perspective?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So that's a great question and I don't want your listeners to be confused about what true alienation is and what estrangement is. True alienation, from my perspective, is when one parent who is in conflict with the other parent probably a high conflict, divorce or something along those lines and that parent takes that child and all they do is brainwash that child against the other parent. Where the parent is a great parent and that parent hasn't done anything really wrong to warrant this, that's alienation. When the other parent hasn't done hardly anything and this is occurring.

Speaker 1:

The difference in estrangement this is when the child removes themselves from the targeted parent because there are other things going on with that targeted parent and they are angry at that parent as well as the other parent. That could be saying things here and there that your parents crazy, your parents this, your parents that, but in estrangement it is both parents and I want to say this. Your listeners may not like it, but for me it's the truth in most cases. After you dive in to finding out the background, to finding out and analyzing what has happened in these cases, you will see that both parents have made mistakes.

Speaker 2:

I think that's incredibly accurate and true. I know I've made a tremendous amount of mistakes and also it's a breathing living entity in my experience, and sometimes there's alienation and sometimes there's estrangement, so there is an intersectionality between the two of those. Does that sound accurate to you or do you disagree with that?

Speaker 1:

No, that does sound accurate. I think it's a combination of both. I think it's not one or the other, but I think when you are in such a high anxious state where you feel broken and at times and you feel as though your world's crashing down and you're panicking and you don't know what to do, you cannot be the most effective parent to your child. And you do things and you say things and oftentimes unintentionally, you put yourself before your own children during these times. But unfortunately, even if you're doing it unintentionally, there are consequences in the end, and that's what you're dealing with on the other side, when your children oftentimes are coming at you and making some of these accusations.

Speaker 1:

You know I'm not talking about things like severe abuse, right, when a child is accusing the other parent of sexual abuse or physical abuse, right. I'm not talking about those things. That's in a category along the lines of their own. I'm talking about accusations such as you weren't here for me. You yelled at me a lot, you pushed me aside, you made choices, you got in a relationship three months after you left mom or dad and that was more important to you than me. These are real feelings from your children, whether you agree or not. That need to be addressed.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for that, and I think it's such an important part of the emotional recovery that we take ownership for our part in the story, and if we're unable to do that, then bridging that gap seems like it's almost impossible.

Speaker 1:

I'm really happy to hear you say that. A lot of people that I talk to do not always agree with that, but I'm really happy to hear that from you and it really does change everything right. You can take responsibility or accountability. There's a difference between responsibility and accountability, by the way, too. You can be responsible for something and say I did it, but are you accountable for it? Do you really feel it, or are you accountable for it? Do you really feel it, or are you just saying it? To get back into your child's life when you're accountable for something, you feel it deep down inside of you. You really realize and recognize to yourself that you are accountable for hurting your child.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's powerful and yes, I appreciate you clarifying the delineation between those two things and a really powerful message for the audience, like accountability is actually feeling it, showing up, changing your behavior, working on yourself, and that kind of segues into the next question. You were saying in your introduction like there's no chance for anyone to really recover unless they come home to themselves and start working on their own emotional ecosystem. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Speaker 1:

Sure. So for me that's the key to reconnection and every single relationship across the board is not just in these losses that people are experiencing with their children and if we are not in touch and healed from our own trauma that has gone on, through this horrific experience with your ex, you know, healing from that first of all has to allow time. You have to give yourself self-compassion, I mean. That's why I came up with my program, which is the Compassion Academy that our clients go through before they start coaching with us, because they have to learn how to give themselves for self-compassion for all the trauma that they've gone through with a narcissistic ex or someone that has tendencies of a personality disorder. They have to break through their own defensiveness. They have to shift their shame. All these things they have to work on because your child doesn't want somebody back in their life that one isn't healthy and two, that they feel that they still have to take care of their parents' emotional needs.

Speaker 1:

That's a very dangerous place to enter into. Reunification from this is not just going to reunification therapy and working out your issues. We have to be able to be coming home to ourselves first, release our trauma. Trauma affects our brain in so many different ways and many parents think it's just we go into a room with our children and everything gets better with a therapist or a coach. That's not how it is. If you can heal yourself, if you can learn new language in terms of how to talk to your child so that they can hear you, then you have the best chance of reunifying with your children. I have worked with one parent or one grandparent that has reconnected with their children without doing this personal work first, and I don't think you can do it without it.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for that. And again, from my perspective, like I talk to a lot of parents, a lot of grandparents, there's a lot of people in our community in our 12-step program and they come in with this idea that they're coming in to get their kid back. And the way that we work with it is it's not about your child, it's about every single relationship in your life, right? Because wherever you go, there you are, if you're not working on your emotional ecosystem, then everything around you is having the same effect. So in your program does that come up Like? Do you do people get the idea that it's about every relationship and they have to work on how they are everywhere that they go, and it's not just about the child?

Speaker 1:

Well, in the beginning not so much right. A lot of them come in as victims, right? They're thinking to themselves this is being done to me and I always say, no, this is not being done to you, this is being done for you. It's a very clear distinction. When something's being done to you, then you feel like you're a victim of what's happening. When something is being done for you, it's for you to grow from that. It's for you to take steps to heal yourself, to make different choices, show up differently, show different actions towards that human being.

Speaker 1:

So, to answer your question, I'm not just working on helping people become better people in the relationship with their children. It's becoming a different person overall with every relationship that you are in. Because if you can do that, you're going to have a much better chance in life of having healthier relationships all around, not just with your children. But this is about choices. You have to make choices for yourself. Do you want to stay stuck or do you want to grow and heal? Because if you don't change here, nothing around you is going to change either. You've been hurt, your children have been hurt. It's not just one or the other, it's both. And when we repair relationships, it's between two people, not just one person meeting your needs.

Speaker 2:

I'm already in love with you, Dr Steele.

Speaker 1:

Is that all it took? That was it. I'm a in love with you.

Speaker 2:

Dr Stewart, is that all it took? That was it. I'm a simple guy. Your philosophy and Modality that you're teaching and supporting folks with totally lines up with my perspective and my lived experience. And you were talking about the arc of the parent when they come in, or the grandparent, and initially it's like being in the victim role and like what is the arc during your training? Like what do you generally see as the arc? And maybe some healing or some shift in people's perspectives? How does that look?

Speaker 1:

So I think the shift comes when you help them look at a different mindset to get into they're coming in. Mindset work is very important when you're trying to reconnect when people my arc is when people come in. They're so focused on I want this and I want it now. That is not how healing and relationships work. You didn't get into this overnight with your children. I mean, sometimes people come to me and they haven't talked to their kids in 15 years, so I have to remind them that you've been in this for 15 years. It could take 15 years maybe to reunite. Now, a lot of times it doesn't take 15 years On average. It does take in my work, the way that I do it about three years and there's a connection again. Okay, it takes about three years and then a connection of some sort usually forms again if they do the work on themselves and if they learn, like I said, to break through that defensiveness and also step into their child's shoes.

Speaker 1:

I don't care if the child is young or an adult child. Children of all ages have their own feelings. The children's feelings are real. They are their feelings. Feelings are not right or wrong. And the other thing that I work on, too, is teaching these parents about acceptance too, is teaching these parents about acceptance. Acceptance is a tricky word. People don't truly understand what acceptance is. Acceptance means that you don't have to like it, you don't have to love it, but you have to recognize it, understand it and see that your children are doing this because they feel that something is wrong in the relationship and oftentimes they do want to heal it.

Speaker 1:

For instance, the major categories that children complain about at any age I mean starting in the teenage years, really up until their young adulthood years is that their parents were overbearing. Their parents didn't have boundaries. Their parents wanted them to take care of their emotional needs. The parents shared court information with them, the parent used them as a confidant All these kinds of things. Now people listen and think, oh, that's the alienator, that's the alien. No, it's not. This happens on both sides. Oftentimes you may not realize that you're doing it, but your kids are picking up on it. Even a parent that says to their child oh, your father's like that, you know he's like that. Or your mother's like that, you know how she is that is saying something negative about the other parent Learning how to listen to your child, to understand them not just to get your two cents in and respond, and most people in life never do that.

Speaker 1:

They just want to get their two cents in and they don't listen and understand what my child is hurting. And if you listen really closely, you will see that your child is hurting from your high conflict divorce. Whether you think you did something or not. There's not one person I've worked with that I can't find something that happened that their child was hurt by. There are no perfect parents. I'm not one, so I know that there's things that happen from time to time where our parents you know we're not great to them have a conversation. This is all about the lack of communication and not knowing how to communicate, and it trickles down from what they're just doing with their ex all the way down to their children. They don't know how to communicate.

Speaker 2:

I love that. It's funny. We're taping a show on Saturday with people from the community that is titled the Alienator in Me and just about parents that have come from the victim mentality, talking about the places that they've messed up, the places they need to take responsibility, the places that they need to look up. So I'm loving that you're bringing that up and you brought up an important word. You brought up the word of acceptance. So question I hear a lot of times is hey, it's been five years, two years, 12 years, a wedding, a birth, a death, a graduation. Like how do you work with parents in that thing, with these seminal moments? Like how do they get to acceptance through your program?

Speaker 1:

Well, first of all, I always have a lot of compassion for these people that are missing these events that they thought would have been a normal event for them in their lives. So you know this is painful not to be there. But then I go into dissecting. Well, why aren't you there? What happened along the way? How are you communicating with them? You know your children. When these things are going on, I always ask in the beginning for the potential client to send me the email or text exchanges that they're having between them and their ex and also what they're sending to their children. And let me be as clear as day right now Sending to your child over and over that you love them and you miss them is not the way to reconnect with your children. So if you're listening to this right now, please get that out of your mindset and stop typing it. Ok, you can say love mom at the end or love dad, but here's what kids that have been estranged or alienated tell me. That's BS. I already know that they love me and they miss me, but why are they hurting me? Love me and they miss me, but why are they hurting me? So your child must. Your child wants to hear more of. I know that. I'm sorry that I've hurt you and I'm here for you. If you want to talk, if you, I'm here to listen to you. I take accountability. You deserve better from me. I take accountability. You deserve better from me.

Speaker 1:

You know, and the one thing that I stress more than anything is that when you have a break in contact with your children and there's another party involved you must know this you will not get back in your child's life. If it is on your terms, it must be on the child's terms, meaning they have lacked so much control and so much has been shut down inside of them in terms of their voice, and their voice hasn't been heard, and so they want their voice heard with you. So to build back that trust, you must meet them on their terms, not yours. If they're not ready to meet with you, then you work harder to get them to meet with you. If they're not ready to do that, then you start with simple texting.

Speaker 1:

But it doesn't take just one time in doing this. It can take 100 times before you get one response back, because they have lost trust in you, and a lot of that has come from what the other spouse has said to them in combination what your actions have been towards them and what you're writing to them. So please stop writing I love you and I miss you and start writing to them about what is really going on and that this is completely unfair to them and that you have, you know, made mistakes and you want to take accountability for it. If I ask 10 parents to line up, I don't even know if there's alienation or estrangement going on and I said please write down 10 things that you regret that happened with your children. Every person could write down 10 things. So that's how I know no one's innocent with their kids all the time. Nobody is perfect.

Speaker 2:

Life doesn't work like that and parenting certainly does not either and doesn't have a lot of access or almost no access, and all they really have capacity to do is to send a text once in a while. What would you suggest as something really simple, with a low bar that doesn't include I love you or I miss you? That might be useful.

Speaker 1:

So I think something that's great is I'm really I've been thinking about things from your side and I'm really beginning to see that I've made mistakes along the way and I'm so sorry, and I'm working on this and I need you to know that I did cross boundaries and I am sorry and that was not fair to you. That's a great first. That's a very good simple text that goes away from I love you and I miss you.

Speaker 2:

And then that's it. You sign a dad, you sign a mom. Do you sign it Anything, or just?

Speaker 1:

No, it depends on the cases. It depends. I can't say for sure. I have to hear each case. Each case is unique. This is not a cookie cutter program that we have. You know, each case we treat separately.

Speaker 1:

I don't mind saying love dad or love mom. Okay, I don't know if the kids are calling you by your first name. You know that happens a lot. You know that's a tricky situation too. Do you sign it your full name? But do you sign it your first name or do you sign it love mom and dad? Some people say, oh, you always put mom and dad. However, there are complicated cases that I've had when the kid says stop calling yourself mom or dad. The only way I will communicate with you is if you allow me to call you by your first name. And so what am I to do? I have to allow that because that's at least a start for communication. Some people have none and then you hope down the road that that will turn back into mom and dad once respect and trust is gained again. Every case is different. If somebody is just looking to reconnect with their children or their grandchildren the way they want to reconnect with them, it's not going to work.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for that and some wonderful suggestions, acknowledgement, taking responsibility and leading with that instead of I love you, I miss you, which I think most of us parents and grandparents do and I know I've done all the time and I still do and it's such a great and refreshing reflection from you that there's a different way to communicate and that resonates with me. And you also mentioned something else which I think is really important to talk about, and that's the long view. Like you know, a parent comes in. They're fragmented, they're distraught, they want their kids back and they want it now. And it takes time, and so much of us are so focused on just the moment, what's happening now, that we can't see this as a year, three years, five years, seven year stretch of work.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is and I think, lawrence, as you know too right, trauma is intense and it takes a lot of time to heal from that. You have a lot of triggers coming out of this. Many people do and those triggers take time to heal. You have to learn a lot of self-awareness in terms of when you're being triggered and not to react with impulses. I can't tell you how many times I have gotten a parent to a great point where the communication is about to begin, there's little stuff going back and forth and then the kid texts back one thing that triggers the parent and the parent self-sabotages everything Because they don't have the self-awareness yet. Remember I said yet you can learn this that when you are triggered that you need to step away, put your hands behind your back and stop texting, go somewhere for an hour, shut yourself down before and say I was just triggered. Now I need to do and apply my coping skills to decrease this trigger before I can respond to my child. My child is not trying to hurt me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that's a great point. From my personal experience, my middle daughter contacted me about a bit over a year ago and we texted for a little while and my languaging is I like my language and in the way that I communicate and I wanted to meet. I wanted more connection than just the text and then it severed. So I just want to let everyone know out there I'm doing all this work and all this stuff and I completely mess up all the time and it's a long view. I'm doing all this work and all this stuff and I completely mess up all the time and it's a long view and I'm learning. And the beautiful part of the podcast in this community is that we get to learn from other people's mistakes and hopefully we don't do the same thing over and over. And stuff like Dr Su's program sounds magnificent. And is there a difference when you're working with folks that are a parent or if they're grandparents? Are there different nuances in the reconnection and reintegration with the grandkids and kids? Wow, wow, wow and wow. I love Dr Sue. She's my kind of person. She's working on the solution. You know what I mean. She's offering people practical steps on how to regain a relationship with themselves and she's really, really direct. I love that. Like we need people to be more direct, we need people to keep us in the solution. You know, I know for me I just wanted to be a victim, I wanted to blame other people and sometimes sometimes it was really crappy stuff that happened and it was appropriate to sit in that space. But you know, sitting in that space got me stuck a lot of times and that dr sue's out there doing this work is is profound and useful and different. She has a different voice. So if you're struggling out there, um, check out her stuff or free tips, you know, free consultation, what, what, what a great opportunity. And the second part of the show is more fun and and, uh, different and incredibly useful. And I love that we're talking about grandparents too, because we don't really cover that and the nuances between being a grandparent and being a parent and how those relationships can get reestablished and what the arc is. And, oh my Lord, there's just so much to talk about. And, yeah, and I got to go back and reflect on myself after the show and I thank you for listening, thank you for coming out to play Great resources in the show notes After listening to this first part of Dr Sue, you can see how incredibly important it is to have a community, and now free 12-step community support group.

Speaker 2:

Parental Alienation Anonymous is a great place to practice these skills that Dr Sue's talking about, and then maybe you go out and get some professional assistance too, if that feels appropriate, and the meetings are available every day. I think there's at least two meetings. I think we have 18 or 19 meetings a week now and that's what I got, and, if anyone out there hasn't heard this yet today, I love you. I love you. I feel a lot of love. Dr Su juiced up my love and I love you. I hope you have a beautiful day and I hope to see you around the neighborhood somewhere and definitely, definitely check in for part two of the show.

Speaker 2:

And after these two shows air, we will be having a panel of parents and grandparents talking about some of the stuff that they've done. You know it's actually going to be titled the Alienator In Me, which is very provocative, and we're looking at some of our behaviors that haven't necessarily served the kids in the most positive way, and not to say that we're bad, but just to say well, this is part of the healing journey. So again, love you, be good. See you soon. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.