Family Disappeared

How To Pick The Best Attorney With Legal Expert Rachel King Part 2 - Episode 72

• Lawrence Joss

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In this episode of the Family Disappeared podcast, host Lawrence Joss continues his conversation with attorney Rachel King, who shares valuable insights on navigating the legal system, particularly in family law.

They discuss the importance of understanding the attorney-client relationship, managing legal fees, and clients' rights when facing attorney misconduct. Rachel also provides a sneak peek into her upcoming book, which aims to empower individuals going through divorce and family law issues. The episode concludes with a discussion on self-representation in court and the challenges it presents.

Key Takeaways

  • Understanding your agency in legal matters is crucial.
  • 95% of family law cases settle, often without trial.
  • Effective communication with your attorney can prevent misunderstandings.
  • Reviewing invoices promptly can help manage legal fees.
  • Judges have discretion, making family law unpredictable.
  • Observing court proceedings can provide valuable insights.
  • Self-representation requires a solid understanding of the law.
  • Emotional detachment is key for effective legal representation.
  • Word choice in court can significantly impact outcomes.
  • Reporting attorney misconduct is a viable option.

Chapters
00:00 Navigating Legal Relationships

04:46 Understanding Attorney Fees and Billing Practices

10:59 Addressing Attorney Misconduct and Client Rights

15:42 Insights from Rachel King's Upcoming Book

31:10 Self-Representation in Family Law Cases

Rachel King - https://rachelkingattorney.com/
Rachel's book - "Getting Divorced - Now What?"

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If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:

Email-      familydisappeared@gmail.com

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(All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)

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This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

Speaker 1:

One judge to another can make vastly different rulings in family law court. It's one of the reasons that there's so many people that find family law to be unpredictable. So one of the things that really benefits me as an attorney is that I'm in front of this judge all the time, so I get to hear how they rule, I get to hear what makes them tick, what they like, what they don't like, and I can create and craft my arguments exactly tailored silver platter for this particular judge. Somebody who's self-representing doesn't get to do that. They're in there for one time when I was overwhelmed and underwater.

Speaker 2:

Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. Hi, my name is Lauren Strauss and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. Today we have part two of our interview with Rachel King, who is an attorney and a litigator, and she offers some wonderful perspectives and really useful tips on how to navigate a relationship with an attorney. And in the second part of the interview we actually start to talk about navigating a judge in a courtroom and what that looks like, and she shares some wonderful tips for self-representing. And she shares the tip of all tips, which you're going to have to listen to find out about one of the most important things you can do for yourself before you actually go into the courtroom to hear your case heard. So stick around for that. If you're new to the community, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Speaker 2:

We have a bunch of resources for your free 12-step program. That's available. I think there's 16 meetings a week now. Parentalalienationanonymouscom, which is Parental Alienation Anonymous, is a 12-step program. We have the Family Hope project, where you get to express yourself through art and participate in uh, hopefully having some structural and systemic change by being one of the many voices that get to let people know what's going on and help educate them, and there's a bunch of other great stuff in the show notes and, um, yeah, email me, let me know if you like the show, don't like the show, have any suggestions for guests or topics or YouTube, any of our social media channels? We'd like to know if what we're talking about is useful. You want more of it, you want less of it? You want some kind of live webinars. With this stuff, we can tap into our guests and do a bunch of different things, but we would like to hear what would be useful to the community. And with that, let's jump into the interview.

Speaker 2:

So when I was going through my court stuff, I landed up hiring a professional family law attorney that really concentrated right around the divorce stuff and I didn't necessarily understand parental alienation at all then. So I wasn't really delving that deep into putting some more safeguards on our relationships going forward and I regret that. And I think it's wonderful, if you're listening to the show, that you have other resources so you can make different decisions and really understanding what you want before you talk to an attorney. When you do talk to an attorney, in every part of the journey, knowing that you have agency, if an attorney is not working out even into the trial or into your court journey, you can make a different decision. Not shopping an attorney that's going to tell you what you want, but if the attorney is not really showing up, there's different things to do.

Speaker 2:

So I hired this attorney and a good guy and talking, good communication and really felt like he was powerful if I had to go to court and he helped me craft a settlement and I really thought that I was doing the right stuff and doing the best stuff, stuff and I was giving them a lot of direction. Because, as you can see, I have a relatively strong personality and I made a lot of mistakes and it's a regret that I have today and I share that story with you because even in talking to your attorney and having a great attorney and thinking you know a lot, there's so many resources out here where there's our show, other shows, other non-profits sources out here whether it's our show, other shows, other nonprofits, youtube, whatever, chat, gpt. Educate yourself, learn about the process, try find other people's experiences. So when you decide what you actually want, it's from an educated standpoint and not an emotional standpoint. And I thought I was making an educated decision. But I was making an emotional decision based on what I thought was right and also what would soothe my nervous system the most, and I just wanted to get done. And in just wanting to get done, I did myself a disservice and possibly my kids in the long run, and I need another five or 10 or 15 years to figure out if that's true or not.

Speaker 2:

And with that convoluted story done, let's jump into the second part of the episode, and then this is a question that I hear all the time. So this is a trade and exchange of money for a service and a professional providing something that we can't provide, and it feels like there's a lot of times where it feels like there's just like billing and billing and billing and not necessarily a lot of movement and not necessarily any forward momentum, like how do you talk about that or what do you share with clients, or in your book for people to kind of like, how do you manage and navigate that? Because, as scales can get really, really heavy and can become such a focus on the whole equation of what's happening in court, Well, I'm a I'm a litigator, right.

Speaker 1:

So my job, what I've created and how I want to practice is to get people to the end of their case as quickly as possible, and if that means we go to trial, I push trial. Much of my practice was not going to trial. Most cases, even if they're on the trial track, end up settling. About 95% of cases end up settling. But I think the confusion with that comes from clients really not understanding what they're doing, and maybe that's because the attorney isn't explaining it or they don't have an attorney or they don't understand the legal process.

Speaker 1:

But I have this happen to me all the time, probably more often than it doesn't. I don't want to be involved in this case. I want you to get me out of it. I can't afford it. It's too stressful, I don't want to deal with it anymore. Okay, wait, but actually I want all of the assets. I want my kids all the time. I want maximum spousal support. I want maximum child support. I'm not going to give on anything.

Speaker 1:

Well, those are very, very conflicting positions, right? You're not going to get everything and resolve the case immediately. So sometimes it's truly a matter of understanding the process. Recently, I had a client that said I want to be done with my divorce and I want to go to. I just want to be done with it, I'm over it and I'm like all right, cool, so we'll start the trial process and then, right as we get to the first step in the trial process, it's a like, all right, cool, so we'll start the trial process and then, right as we get to the first step in the trial process, it's a way you know, I just want a little bit more time. I think we can reach an agreement. And I said we're not going to reach an agreement. We've tried absolutely everything. Absent you giving everything up, there's no agreement to be reached again.

Speaker 1:

Conflicting positions within the client and clients do it's emotional, especially in family law. One day you're going to be done, the next day you're not. So having the feelings of rollercoaster is totally reasonable. But working with your attorney or if you're self-represented, understanding that those two concepts don't work together, it's like oil and water. If you want to be done immediately, it costs money. That's whether you're in family law or a breach of contract case. If you want to be out of it, it costs money.

Speaker 1:

You're either giving up the money you were otherwise entitled to, or you're paying money that you maybe shouldn't have because you're taking all of the conflict away, or you're not willing to do that, and in that case it's very likely that you're going to need court intervention and the way our court systems are set up and due process.

Speaker 1:

It's a procedure or takes time, but you should be working with your attorney to put together a strategy and a game plan so you don't fall in the trap where it's continuance after continuance after continuance. If you finally get to a point where you're like I'm done with this case, I'm not settling anymore, I want to go to trial. Maybe your attorney has been your attorney for a year and a half and when you say that they're like oh, I don't have any information, we got to do discovery and we have to do all this, well, what the hell have you been doing for the last year and a half? So you want to avoid those situations where you and your attorney are on different pathways. But again, I think that comes down to a communication issue. Hopefully this will allow people to understand that's a conversation you should be having with your attorney and you should revisit it regularly, because your goals change all the time in litigation.

Speaker 2:

You know that makes a lot of sense. And just to get down to really the meat and potatoes of the question that I'm trying to ask what do you do when you feel like your attorney's overbilling you? What are your rights? What are your recourses? How does that work?

Speaker 1:

I mean, a good attorney is going to have a fee agreement that's signed, and it should explain you know the process for taking issue. I know in my fee agreement there is a time period that clients can come back and can dispute their fees. There's a fee arbitration that's built into our state bar that clients can use, I think, the most, and you can visit all of those avenues just like any business. Though, attorney or not, you probably want to take some time to at least communicate that there is an issue. Then, of course, there's the state bar. I suppose you could not pay. Not paying it means you don't have representation anymore. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe that's a bad thing. Ultimately, though, I think you want to go back and revisit your fee agreement, and, more than anything, you want to read your invoices as soon as you get them from your attorney, and if you're not getting invoices, you want to ask for invoices so you can see where all of the fees are coming from and what they are.

Speaker 1:

Many people sign their fee agreements without fully understanding them, and then they come back and they say, oh gosh, I didn't realize this is so expensive, I am upset with my fees. Okay, well, go back and look that you agreed that this is what was going to happen and so don't feel like you are in such a high stress situation. You need an attorney so bad that you're going to sign this fee agreement without reading it. You want to understand it. You want to review your invoices from your attorney as soon as you get them, make sure you're getting them, ask any questions about any fees that you don't like as soon as you can and hopefully you stop the representation before you find yourself uncomfortable with $50,000 worth of fees.

Speaker 1:

I know people aren't going to like this either, but if a client calls me and they say I need a new attorney because my old attorney charged me $50,000 and didn't do anything, I'm kind of like well, why did you let it get that far You're not the innocent party in this either that you let it go absent $50,000 accruing in one month. Why weren't you paying attention? Why weren't you directing your attorney a little bit and making sure you and your attorney were on the same page? But then again, if you still are finding yourself in a bad situation, you can Most, I think, bar associations have some kind of reporting system or fee arbitration that somebody could look into.

Speaker 2:

That makes a lot of sense and I've spoken and hired plenty of attorneys and attorneys are not always honest and forthcoming and they do represent themselves themselves in a particular way and they're very trustworthy in the initial conversation and then, once they start having redundancies built in and people billing for the same thing two or three times which I see all the time it's a problem and I would say from someone in a position where they feel like there's scarcity which would be a parent or someone going through a divorce that they stay in a lot of these relationships for longer than they can and their attorneys continue to manipulate the situation to a certain degree because it's just how they're billing in their office and that's just the way that it works.

Speaker 2:

So I just say that there's a lot of stuff going on out there and, yes, as parents and people hiring attorneys, the onus is on us and it's really complex and hard to stay present with everything that's going on. When we are hiring a professional, we expect them to hire, we expect them to act professionally, but they're just people like us that are as flawed as we are. They just happen to have a license. From my perspective, you know.

Speaker 1:

Well, yeah, but I mean I think it's important to understand that business attorneys are in business. It is we get paid for the advice that we give and the work that we do and we are expected to get paid for that. We can't take any. You know, we have families to support and accidents happen. So, yeah, I've seen some bills from attorneys that are shocking. Shocking and I'm not speaking to any of the attorneys that practice like that or about those kinds of attorneys when I say this.

Speaker 1:

I do think you know really reviewing your invoices is incredibly important and then, before you fly off the deep end, give them a call. I remember one time one of my paralegals, bill put on something she'd done a quarter of an hour worth of work, so 0.25 worth of work. She charges 220, where we bill her out at 225 per hour, or we did at the time, and when she was inputting it she forgot the decimal right. So it was it billed out as 25 hours at $225 an hour, and this client flipped out like, went in before even calling us, went on and like left Google reviews and Yelp reviews and like went all over Facebook and it was like I mean, obviously that was a mistake, it was like to send an email at 25 hours. It was just a decimal point, super easy fix, no big deal. There are clerical errors, so reach out to your attorney and find out what's going on.

Speaker 1:

But, just like in any industry, there's bad attorneys out there and you need to be aware of it, and maybe especially aware of it because you're so emotional in these cases that it can be really hard to see straight. And then the last thing I would say on this particular point is it can feel like with your attorney they're not doing something, but we take a lot of direction from our clients. So, for example, if I have a client that says they want to stay out of court, I'm going to do everything I can to stay out of court. And unless they communicate with me and keep the time down and not take certain action because I'm not trying to turn it into a litigious nightmare Unless they tell me that that position has changed, I don't know that, so I'm going to continue operating this.

Speaker 1:

But many times we get calls that's like you haven't done anything, I'm fed up and it's like, well, I mean that would have been nice for you to communicate that you wanted the strategy to change. So check in with your attorney. Also, know that as attorneys we don't or at least in my office I don't reach out with no news. So if you feel like you haven't talked to your attorney and you're ticked off, sometimes attorneys don't reach out unless they have something to say. But that doesn't mean that you can't reach out to your attorney and say, hey, what's going on? Has there been a change or I think we need a meeting.

Speaker 2:

Okay, Thank you for that. And also just staying with the whole idea of attorneys being efficient and doing their jobs. What happens if an attorney misses a deadline to file paperwork or doesn't complete something that completely affects the case, affects custody. Anything like that Is the recourse the same thing, just like the bar. Is there any other kind of legal or financial recourse that you could actually go after the attorney personally?

Speaker 1:

So I mean, hopefully attorneys have professional liability insurance. I know in California if you don't have it, then you're required to disclose it to clients that you don't have professional liability insurance, so you can go after that. The issue is that is a whole nother lawsuit and you have to be able to prove that for the attorney's actions. You would have won anyway, and so that's a higher legal issue. I think as an attorney, you know we're human.

Speaker 1:

I've missed, I think, in my career fortunately I've only missed two deadlines that were big deadlines big, you know, like my clients were going to lose their opportunity to sue. I noticed it right away and we I ended up filing with the court and just saying this was my fault, please don't prejudice my client, and the court was fine with it and extended that deadline, didn't hurt my client for something that I had done wrong. So as an attorney, we have the option to do that. As a client, I think, uh, again, communication is really good and then if you have an attorney that missed a deadline, you probably need to find another attorney and see if you can fix that missed deadline and then if you're looking for some kind of recourse, again, state bar or potentially suing under malpractice would be an option, but don't you know, try and get ahead of it, because those are harder routes to take.

Speaker 2:

That makes perfect sense, and thanks for digging into a couple of those questions a little bit deeper. So tell me what are the favorite parts of your book, and can you also tell us what the name is and tell us a couple of favorite parts that we can chat about a little bit, just to let folks know what's in there?

Speaker 1:

Sure, it's called Getting Divorced. Now what the goal is? To have it out in October, but October is coming up very, very quickly and I think I still have to go through some of my edits with my final edits with my editor. So still aiming for October 2024, but if not, it'll be coming out shortly thereafter and you can register to enter to win a copy. So head over to rachelkingattorneycom so you can get the latest updates on that.

Speaker 1:

My favorite part of the book entirely I mean not even a question is the personal stories that I got to share about people that were willing to allow me to, regarding their personal experiences as an attorney. I am detached emotionally from all of my cases. I'm intentionally detached, because if I become emotionally involved then I don't represent as well. But not being emotionally attached offers me a different perspective. So I really wanted a book where not only did it share legal information but it also showed real life stories good and bad of people that said I did this and it was awful. Don't ever do this. Learn from my mistake or I didn't know this information, and here's how learning it affected my case. So the real life stories are absolutely my favorite. My case. So the real life stories are absolutely my favorite and I tried to include real life stories in every single section so that there are enough to be relatable.

Speaker 1:

I also tried to include real life stories that included the most common perspectives that I came across. So, for example, in child custody, I tried to include a real life story about a couple that one person wanted sole custody and the other wanted joint and they were both good parents, or and one where there was a domestic violence abuse situation and how that plays out. So I tried to include the most common scenarios and give the real life. You know behind the scenes version from one of my. They practiced law for an extended period of time in this like the secrets of litigation and share those with individuals so that they know okay, I'm going to walk into court. Here's a little piece of information that might help me.

Speaker 2:

Could you talk briefly about one or two of those tips, just to let folks know what might be in the book?

Speaker 1:

Sure. So I think people forget. I mean, maybe you realize this, but judges are human and they have this set of laws, but especially in family law, that's a court of equity, which means that judges are supposed to make fair decisions, and fair in family law court. It's one of the reasons that there's so many people that find family law to be unpredictable. So one of the things that really benefits me as an attorney is that I'm in front of this judge all the time, so I get to hear how they rule, I get to hear what makes them tick, what they like, what they don't like, and I can create and craft my arguments exactly tailored silver platter for this particular judge. Somebody who's self-representing doesn't get to do that. They're in there for one time. It's like a one shot, one kill option. So the tip is take some time and go and just sit and listen. Family law court proceedings are open to the public and maybe you have to work and that seems like something you don't want to do. But if you can go, listen and watch the judge how they react to certain behaviors, how they react to certain word choices, what arguments they seem to appreciate, and then rule in favor of, that can really help you as you're crafting how you're going to present to the judge.

Speaker 1:

I was once well, not once. I was in front of this particular judge so many times multiple times a week, sometimes multiple times a day and he hated when people interrupted. If he didn't invite you to speak and you spoke, you'd get kicked out of the courtroom. He was just so serious about this, whereas other judges are not that particular. Well, I knew this because I was in front of him all the time, so I waited always for him to say Miss King, would you like to talk? People that were self-represented, or even attorneys that didn't know this judge would come in and they would lose. They would be silenced because they didn't follow this judge's rule. But that's an easy rule to follow, right? And if you just go in and sit and listen to your judge, that's gonna be making your very significant family law decisions. It can give you the advantage that the other side does not have.

Speaker 2:

That is a super ninja tip. I've never heard anyone say that and it's so simple and it makes so much sense Like, yeah, they have my family's life in their hands. Surely I want to know how they behave and what's coming out of their mouth and how to best show up with. I'm with an attorney or by myself. What a that's really cool.

Speaker 1:

It's only word choice, right? Word choice seems so simple and on one hand, people say, oh, but they're judges, they shouldn't care, they should be unbiased, they should do all these things. Okay, sure, but now let's remember that they're human and so your word choice matters. How you present yourself is going to have them decide whether you're more or less credible, and no judge is the same. So just go see how they want it. If they like it's like do you want crunchy cookies? Soft cookies? You know what do you want? Okay, I'm going to make that for you and I'm going to give it to you on the day of my hearing.

Speaker 2:

I love that. That is wonderful. And just staying with the whole idea of the judge for a moment and getting back to having an attorney represent you, do you get to request a specific judge? Do you get to file in a specific court so you think you have a better chance to get a judge? Is that part of the strategy and is that something we should be asking the attorneys if we are going to be going to court?

Speaker 1:

So forum shopping is not. It's called forum shopping, it's not allowed, and there's many laws that actually say that forum shopping is not allowed and you get in big trouble for doing it. That being said, I know attorneys that don't necessarily forum shop, but they use different tools available to change out judges. I am not a believer in that. I am much more interested in making sure that we have a really lock solid strategy and then again going and seeing how this judge wants me to present. I am totally happy to change my presentation style for a particular judge, though there are a lot of attorneys that can't do that or that are just convinced that their way is the best way, so they're unwilling to do it. There are situations, especially like in California and I'm not sure about the other states where we have commissioners which are hired to act as a judge but they're not appointed as a judge, and you have an opportunity to not agree to have the commissioner hear your case.

Speaker 1:

There are times where you can get rid of a judge right at the beginning if you don't like it for no reason. What is not possible is to decide that you don't like your judge's decision so you want a new judge to file again. Why can't you do that? Because it's kind of like appealing Just appeal your decision. If the judge made an error, then the appellate court will come in. And that's where I get a lot of people that say I've been in front of this judge for three years, they always rule against me, they hate me, I want a new judge.

Speaker 1:

Well, no, that's not quite how it works. You were assigned to this department, you have this judge and you're kind of stuck with them until they leave, absent you being able to prove some kind of bias. And kind of stuck with them until they leave, absent you being able to prove some kind of bias. And then the only thing I will say on that is because I actually just learned this a few years ago. I thought it was interesting If you accuse a judge of being actually biased, you're appointed an attorney and there's a whole trial on whether the judge was actually biased in your case, because it's a big deal right. So you probably don't necessarily want to go into that either and that would be a very hard thing to prove right Now. You've got a judge who's represented by an attorney to defend kind of their status as judicial officer.

Speaker 2:

Wow. Yeah, that sounds like a can of worms that no one should open, but I'm sure some people do.

Speaker 1:

I've had people say to a judge I had actually I was in court. I think it was a couple of weeks ago. I actually really liked this judge that I was in front of and he was having a rough day. Everybody was interrupting, nobody was listening. He had a lot of people that were being very disrespectful, even swearing at one point at him. It was just a rough day in court. Then this guy who was self-represented comes up and the judge says well, I see, you reported your attorney to the state bar, so why don't you just let your attorney not work for you anymore? And he said actually, I reported you, your honor, I reported you to the judicial council board. And this particular judge laughed and said oh great, yeah, because he probably didn't do anything. You know, in this case I don't think he actually did anything wrong and now he's got to go through the whole process. But that is an option.

Speaker 2:

You can report a judge to the Judicial Council Board and it's similar to the State Bar for Attorneys different things and you mentioned the other part of your favorite part of the book was the stories and the personal reflections and stuff like that. Can you share one particular story that you think might be fun to let people know about?

Speaker 1:

Sure, I'm not going to it's not a super on point one because I think it's a little bit nuanced, but I like it. I enjoyed it, I watched it. I was not on the matter and this person wasn't a client. But again, I go into open court and I listen to my judges too, because I'm interested to see how they, what makes them tick. Even the ones I've been in front of for years, I still go and listen or watch their proceedings.

Speaker 1:

So this particular case this woman got married. She was self-representing her entire self or her entire time. She got married in Las Vegas over, you know, a one night vendor or whatever went to the chapel house and got married and then woke up the next day and you've all heard this story before she decided she didn't want to be married anymore. She made a huge mistake and the husband, I guess, went kind of MIA right. So they had a one-night stand in Vegas, got married and then they never talked again and so she decided to file for an annulment and she went through the whole thing. She went through all of the chain of how to serve him, which was a big mess because she didn't know where he was. So she had to request service by publication. It was incredibly expensive and time consuming. She finally got that done. He didn't respond, probably because he didn't care and he was in agreement with the annulment. So he didn't respond.

Speaker 1:

She enters default and the judge has a default proof of hearing, which is basically a scenario where the judge says okay, I get that you want me to make your orders because the other party hasn't participated, but I'm not sure about your orders, so come in and prove to me why your orders are appropriate. So that's what happened. She went in and she explained the whole story to the judge and how this was a big mistake and, uh, she really didn't want to be married and it was only, you know, 12 hours later or whatever. And the judge, after all of this, looked at her and said yeah, I understand where you're coming from. It just doesn't meet the legal basis of an annulment. So I'm denying your annulment and you can go back to square one and file for divorce and now deal with all the new service of process and all of the entire case, because it didn't meet the legal requirements of annulment and this poor woman was just sitting there. Like you mean, for a year and a half I've been married to this dude at that point, right, Even though they hadn't seen each other. And now I'm still married to him and I got to go start over.

Speaker 1:

But the answer was yes, and why? And she was devastated. She was so upset, she was in tears, she just couldn't believe it and all she really wished was that she'd gone and talked to an attorney at the beginning not even to hire one just to find out if she was able to file for annulment and annulment. She didn't do that because she was trusting the media, the stories that we all hear about, about how you could just go in and null it the next day, getting misinformation from her friends, but none of these sources actually knew the law and gave her the advice. So poor thing, I think at the end of it she was married, legally married for a total of three years on a 12-hour, whatever rendezvous. Let's call it a rendezvous, a 12-hour rendezvous.

Speaker 2:

Wow, what an interesting story. And yeah, there's not the ending that I thought was going to happen, but it makes perfect sense and brings us back to making sure that we have some kind of conception of what the law is and if we need an attorney and to talk to people that are qualified and we're getting near the end of wrapping up here and I just want to delve into this, maybe a little superficially, but just to do it self-representing, like, what do you say when people say they want to self-represent? Is it possible to have a positive outcome? Is it not possible to have a positive outcome? Is it just a matter of how much work you put in?

Speaker 1:

I don't think it's a matter of how much work. I think that the definition of a positive outcome really depends on the understanding of the case as a pro-per right. So we call them pro-pers or self-represented individuals. For example, if you are a self-represented individual, you've been the stay-at-home mom the entire marriage. You're the primary parent when you're the stay-at-home mom. So now in divorce you decide that you want to continue to be the primary parent and have the kind of the sole decision-making power. That you want to continue to be the primary parent and have the kind of the sole decision making power that you had during the marriage, you're going to feel like you were unsuccessful in your case because that wouldn't be a standard outcome. That would. Just because you were the primary parent during the marriage doesn't mean you're going to be the primary parent after there's been such a significant change in the parental relationships. So one is can you be successful under the law, absolutely? Can you be successful in your own mind or what everybody's telling you means success? Not necessarily. In fact I would say probably more times than not no, because your ideas of what is reasonable or successful are far different, in my experience, than what the law thinks is reasonable or successful. So that's one understanding Actual self-representation, I think, is definitely possible.

Speaker 1:

I think the tips for somebody that's self-represented are, again, that they understand the laws that are going to be applied. They understand the deadlines and the processes. You don't get to go into court maybe more than one time as a self-represented individual and say I didn't do that because I didn't know. That's not an excuse. Some judges will give you leniency the first couple of times you say it. After that they're just going to start ruling against you because you have to understand the procedures and the deadlines. So, understanding the procedures and the deadlines, making sure you know what they are. There's many self-represented or self-help clinics that can help you. The clerk can oftentimes give you the court's deadlines for filing documents and then from there the most successful self-represented individuals are ones that keep their emotions out of it and only apply the law.

Speaker 1:

I had a judge tell my client and another party once I was so happy she said this because they were fighting contentiously over co-parenting, both sides making allegations of parental alienation. And she looked at them and she said I don't need you to waste any more of my time in trial telling me that you don't get along with this person. I understand you don't need you to waste any more of my time in trial telling me that you don't get along with this person. I understand you don't like each other.

Speaker 1:

You're in trial in court on parenting issues, so stop telling me what a horrible person they are, how much you don't like them, what a horrible mom or dad they are, and instead focus on the information that I'm asking you to tell me so that I can compare it to the law and to me. That's so insightful. You don't like them. The court knows this because you're in court, so you don't need to waste any time telling the court or you know facts about what a horrible husband or wife or parent they are. Husband or wife or parent they are. Focus on abuse, neglect, custody, share the things that like really matter to the judge when they're making a decision, and the client or the people that I know that have done that on their own have been successful under the law in their family law cases.

Speaker 2:

And I'll say my final question, for that I go into court, I'm self-representing and I'm standing across the table from an attorney. Do I really have like two strikes against me just by showing up without an attorney?

Speaker 1:

I don't think from a judge's perspective, especially in family law, you do. I don't think judges are pretty understanding that most people are not represented in family law. I'll say your two disadvantages that get you. Those two strikes are one the attorney knows the judge's lingo, so knows how to present it. So you are behind the eight ball there. But you can fix it by spending some time and watching your judge and two attorneys. We understand the rules of evidence.

Speaker 1:

Well, let me preface that A good attorney understands the rules of evidence, and the rules of evidence are probably the biggest hiccup that self-represented people have, because they don't understand that you can't just bring in a text message or a photograph and have the judge look at it. Like there's a whole slew of laws that say whether it comes in or out, what questions you have to ask to get the judge to look at it. So many things that go on. So those are the two steps, and the reason I say that counts against the self-represented individual isn't necessarily because they can't get their own evidence in, though that matters it's more. I can use all I mean. I can get evidence thrown out like crazy because you didn't do the right thing. So I can just object to everything that you're saying, but you can't object to mine because you don't know how to do it. So it ends up being, you know, a strike against you from a proper, again solvable If you just put in some time and learn the rules of evidence.

Speaker 2:

It sounds like a lot of time. We need to go in to understand that, but I hear what you're saying.

Speaker 1:

Maybe I'll do a webinar once, a pre-recorded webinar about some of the basics for like, getting a text message in, getting a photograph, in getting the testimony in and then so people can watch it and actually present the information, get their story in front of the judge, because that's the hardest part.

Speaker 2:

That sounds like that would be incredibly useful. And, as we're wrapping up here, rachel, is there anything else you want to share about the book, about your practice? We're going to have all your information in the show notes so people know how to get hold of you. I heard you mention that there's going to be a giveaway for the book. We'll make sure that's in the show notes, but is there anything else you want to say about the practice or the book?

Speaker 1:

as we're wrapping up here, I would love for your guests to come and register. I'd love to give one of them a free copy. The book also includes a second workbook for people that are specifically going into self-represent so they can organize all of this information that they're going to have, organize their evidence in a way that's going to help them or allow them to present, and we, again, my goal is really to help people represent themselves if they need to. So follow me on TikTok. I think you have that. That's at the Lawyer King. I have a slew of videos with a whole bunch of pointers, a lot of explanation on law that could be helpful. And again, if anybody has any questions, I'm always looking for content tips. So I'm happy to take your question and turn it into some kind of content in an upcoming video or book, and I really appreciate having the opportunity to answer your questions.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you, rachel, and it was a pleasure and we're all really excited for this new webinar about how to get your evidence in and texting and pictures in. That sounds yay, well again, thank you so much for coming out and chatting for a little bit. It was really informative. My takeaway is really sitting and listening to how the judge operates and how the court flows and stuff like that. I think that is such an incredibly sweet, wonderful gift that you provided for everyone listening.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much.

Speaker 2:

Okay. By far the best tip I've heard about any court stuff from anyone that I've interviewed or spoken to is go sit in the courtroom, see how the judge runs their home, their office, their cadence, what they expect in communication, how they like people to show up, what they react negatively to Do your homework oh my God. Cadence, what they expect in communication, how they like people to show up, what they react negatively to Do your homework oh my God. Like how much trauma and drama would have been solved in so many cases if people were to say, hey, go sit in and listen to the judge in three or four different, five, six, whatever different cases, Take notes and come prepared, Do your work. Okay Again, rock star, rock star, rock star stuff and wonderful person to interview. Really really easy. Really appreciated the time with Rachel. She's got a link in our show notes if you want to sign up to potentially win a book and a workbook. She also said she's open to questions and she's got all kinds of videos, so definitely check the resources she's offering to everyone. You know Some of them are for free and yeah, and what a great professional out there doing some really wonderful work and sounds like a super powerful litigator.

Speaker 2:

And with that, thanks for coming out to play today. Remember to like share. Yell on the corner, let people know, maybe print up your own t-shirts with family disappeared. You have to listen to this or anything else you feel that is appropriate. And with that, in case no one's told you yet today, I love you, have a beautiful day and I hope to see you around the neighborhood. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of family disappeared podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.