Family Disappeared

Anxious Parents, Anxious Kids: Perpetuating, a Cycle of Parental Alienation, Estrangement and Erasure Part 1 - Episode 75

• Lawrence Joss

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In this episode of the Family Disappeared podcast, host Lawrence Joss speaks with therapist Emily Moon about the complexities of parenting during high-conflict divorce situations. They explore the emotional challenges faced by parents, the impact of parental alienation, and the importance of vulnerability and accountability in parenting. Emily shares her personal experiences with alienation and offers insights into common challenges parents face, including counter-parenting dynamics and the need for emotional regulation. The conversation emphasizes the importance of teaching children about right and wrong while acknowledging their feelings and developmental stages.

Key Takeaways

  • Parenting in high-conflict situations can be overwhelming.
  • Striving for perfection in parenting can lead to harm.
  • Alienating parents often prioritize conflict over children's well-being.
  • Hopelessness is a common feeling among targeted parents.
  • Children's emotional states are influenced by their parents' emotions.
  • Vulnerability fosters deeper connections with children.
  • Parents should acknowledge their imperfections to teach accountability.
  • Understanding child development is crucial in parenting discussions.
  • Counterparenting can severely impact children's emotional health.
  • Support systems are essential for parents navigating these challenges.


Emily Moon: https://www.emilymoon.life/

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This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

Speaker 1:

And I think, as parents whether it's divorce or not, I mean, I think all of us will have to go back and apologize for making some choices. You know, I mean hindsight's 20-20. We all I think most of us do the best we can with what we know at the time. But in these kind of situations, in the high conflict, where the kids are being pulled by the tug of war, I do think it's important for all parents to do their work, that we don't victimize ourself. We don't want to teach our children that being a victim is an excuse to not do our work.

Speaker 2:

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast.

Speaker 3:

Hi, my name is Lawrence Joss and welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. Today we have Emily Moon, who is a therapist out of Nashville and really interesting lady. She was alienated as a child and as a parent. Her kids were alienated from her and she's reconnected with them and we're not necessarily going to be talking about those dynamics, but we're going to be talking about parenting and high conflict and she will share some of her personal experiences and wonderful, wonderful conversation and she also teaches parenting classes and has Q&As. So there'll be a bunch of great stuff for you in the show notes to get in touch with Emily after the show in case you have some questions or follow-ups and if you're new to the community, welcome. We're a 501c3 nonprofit and we have a bunch of great resources for you. We have a free 12-step program, Parental Alienation Anonymous. The link is in the show notes. Come by, check out a meeting. It's a great place for you to find community and also do some interpersonal work on yourself. And we have parents all over the spectrum in the 12 step community parents that are reunited with their kids partially, fully. We have other parents that have no contact. We have people in between. So it's a really a rich place and it's free a really great resource. And there's also my email in the show notes familydisappeared at gmailcom. If you've got any questions, any topics you'd like us to discuss, please just let us know. We'd love to hear from you. If you know some great guests to be on the show, let us know about this too, and remember to like and share what we've got going on so we can reach more people and be more useful to more of the people in our community struggling. And with that, let's just jump into the show.

Speaker 3:

Parenting in the beginning stages of this high conflict divorce was crazy. I was trying to parent and be the best parent and role model I could be all the time and I was going all the way overboard at times and not in a way where I was just like Disneyland dad. It was more in a way that I was really trying to be like this perfect role model and this perfect example, and if I just got good enough or better enough, then the kids would see how much I loved them and what a good man I was and what a good person I was. So in some ways it was performative, even though it was really kind and really good and really, yeah, I liked the way that I parented.

Speaker 3:

In a lot of examples I was trying so hard to get it so right, just to get them to love me, just to get everything to go back to normal, that I think I helped perpetuate some of the harm that was being done by going so far over to try and be in this perfect ideal thing. That just wasn't possible, you know, because I couldn't maintain it. There were days when there were cracks or I'd get emotional or stuff would happen, and then in those spaces that would get weaponized to a certain degree and some of those softer vulnerabilities became what the problem was, you know, and I don't know if this is making any kind of sense, but looking back in retrospect and trying to be this perfect ideal parent because in that place I'd get my kids to love me, I didn't leave space to be imperfect, you know, and the reality is is I'm not perfect. I make some good decisions, I make some bad decisions, Sometimes I apologize for bad decisions and sometimes I don't know that I'm making a bad decision until a lot later.

Speaker 3:

And, man, that is a convoluted lead into the show and it's a really great conversation and an interesting way that we drop into the show. So I hope you're still with us and if you are, let's hear what Emily has to say. So we have Emily on the show today and I'm really excited for you to meet her. And just a little tidbit here, me and Emily started recording the show and then we kind of like hit some bumps, so we stopped and we checked in with each other and kind of came up with a little bit different framework to continue this interview, which is so cool because it's really real, real life. And now, with that being said, I'm going to give Emily an opportunity to introduce herself to you and how PA has affected her life as well.

Speaker 1:

My name is Emily Moon and I'm a therapist in Nashville, tennessee. I am also a parent of two children who I was alienated from, and then I also was a child who was alienated from my mom, so it kind of runs through the generations and I was passionate about this subject and so I created a space for myself in the court system and worked in high conflict divorce and offering testimony in court as an expert witness and just overall working with a lot of parental alienation cases. Dr Burnett is right here in our back door who is a pioneer in the alienation professionals in the population, and so that's what my profession is, that's what I do for a living parents teaching them exactly kind of like what we're talking about, the do's and don'ts and ultimately just acceptance of what's happening and how to get through this mess.

Speaker 3:

That was great, emily. It's great to have you here and you have such a wide berth of stuff we could discuss. We're going to try focusing on parenting in high conflict divorce and we'll see where we go with that. And the first question that we're going to go with which is something that comes up so often is this whole idea is that so many parents are challenged that it seems like their former partner hates them more than they care about the children's wellbeing. And my question for you how does some of these common challenges manifest? What do you hear parents talking about all the time when they bump into another parent that seems to care about the hate and the fight and the conflict more than they do about the kids.

Speaker 1:

One issue that is representative of a parent hating the other parent is that the parent uses the child as a weapon. So an example of that is when a parent the targeted parent has rules and legit well, and what we talked about is counter parenting. The parent counters everything the targeted parent is trying to do, and so when I talk about using a weapon, the alienating parent isn't exactly thinking of the best interest of the child. The alienating parent isn't exactly thinking of the best interest of the child, isn't really thinking about the trauma that will occur within the child as a result of the two parents fighting, and so they are just on a mission to destroy the targeted parent. And so that's a simple example. Discipline or rules. Sometimes parents won't make children get up and go to school. Sometimes parents allow their kids to call a step-parent mom or a step-parent dad. These are some examples of how a parent will use a child as a weapon, and that is as a result of a parent what we call hating the other parent more than they love their child.

Speaker 3:

Okay, those are some great examples of common challenges. I hear the rules, the parenting, the weaponizing the child. I'm also thinking, like some of the more, like interpersonal common challenges. When one parent seems to really dislike the other parent is like self-esteem is like depression, is anxiety, is fear, like all these other things that are manifesting more in the internal mechanism that make it really complicated to even continue to parent or go to work or function. Are you seeing that as common challenges parents are facing, or more the interpersonal journey that's going on underneath some of the stuff that's more external?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think hopelessness, honestly, is really the big umbrella overarching and as a result of hopelessness because the other parent is relentless and they won't, and kind of what on our first take, what we were talking about is just how the alienating parent will fight all day long and will get energy from it, will be invigorated from it and, with the targeted parent, it usually wears them out. So a parent the targeted parent naturally will become hopeless because it's never ending and it gets worse and worse and worse. And what the alienating parent will do and what they will say is so expansive that it's almost like the targeted parent. No matter which way they go left, right, if they say this, if they try that, they're met with roadblocks and so they just get hopeless. So sure.

Speaker 1:

Anxiety, depression, confusion how do I stop this? All of these feelings and thoughts are manifested in some kind of way in parents and then, of course, the kids. They regulate off of parents and so the more anxious the parent, the anxious the child becomes anxious. If a parent's depressed, the child can become depressed. It's so wicked. It just it affects everything, because then we've got a depressed or confused or hopeless parent that no longer can really focus on teaching the children what they need to know. Now they're focused on how to get out of this mess.

Speaker 1:

How do I stop this runaway train? And so what happens oftentimes? And you're going to stop me because if I go down a rabbit hole, because I might be going down one right now but you know, there's much research on how ADD is now being attributed to trauma in the home, and so when you know a parent is traumatized as a result of the fight, and the parents seeing that they are losing their child, and the parent feeling depressed over their child's depression or sadness, children will often figure out a way to feel better, and so oftentimes they create kind of like this fantasy world in their mind or some kind of altered reality and so, and then they just kind of stay up there because they relieve their pain, because their reality is just too big to deal with. So you know, there's all kinds of things that get manifested during this time.

Speaker 3:

Okay, I'm just going to talk about a couple of things that you brought up so we can just dig a little bit deeper into them. And for anyone that's new to the show or relatively new to struggling with parental alienation, estrangement, erasure, whatever terminology you're working with, all is welcome here. And we're talking about a targeted parent, and if you're not familiar with that is targeted parent is generally the parent that feels like they're under pressure, that they're fighting for their lives, that they're fighting for the kids, that they're fighting this thing, that they can't seem to win and they're feeling underwater. So we use the term targeted parent. A lot of people use that and other people use different terminology. Just so you have that.

Speaker 3:

I thought that was really important and I want to talk a little bit what you brought up, emily, also about co-regulating, this idea of I'm scared and I'm anxious. My kid picks up on that and my kid becomes scared and anxious because they're looking for regulation through me and if they can't find me in a stable position, then they can't stabilize. So I think this is really important for everyone to understand. Like for both parents are going through this thing where they're not really regulated, whether it's a targeted parent, the alienating parent and these kids are getting pulled in these way, different big waves, and in both directions. Am I missing anything else you'd like to add to the co-regulation piece, emily?

Speaker 1:

yeah, I'd love to add a few things. A child definitely is looking to regulate off a parent, and so a child will thrive in an environment when they feel safe. And so the younger the child, the more regulation they need from a parent. If the parent is full of anxiety or depressed or confused or self-soothing from through using exterior things, not from within, a child is not going to feel safe. And so that is one important thing is, you know, a motivator for parents to think about is how important it is for parents to stay grounded. Think about is how important it is for parents to stay grounded.

Speaker 1:

I tell parents sometimes you know it's okay to fake it in terms of like, maybe don't cry in front of your kids so much, we don't. Children are helpless. They rely on parents to take care of them. Again, they want to feel safe, and so if they see mom or dad crying all the time, or they see them as the victim, or you know mom, dad's trying to get the kids to make them feel better, that is not going to create safety for a child. And so I do tell parents you know it's important that you use your friends to cry with, or you know you break down in your room, but allowing your kids to see that often is unhealthy and will not be helpful for your child to have a sense of safety. Children want to know that you're in control. So there's that piece of safety and then we talk about kind of like.

Speaker 1:

Oftentimes these are extreme environments, so mom or dad doesn't matter, who has one way of coping. Maybe mom falls apart and is trying to have the rules and dad is saying you know what? No rules, and I'm perfect, I've got it all together. And so what happens is children are bouncing back and forth to extreme home environments, and so ideally, what we want to do is teach our children balance, but what's happening in reality is that no one's teaching them balance and they are seeing their parents role model extreme behaviors, and so children will often learn how to be bad and rebellious or good and perfect, for example. These are two extremes. So again, just really stressing how important it is for parents to get in a support group, to get to read books, to become educated, like on this show, where they can learn how to appropriately parent through one of the most stressful and painful times of their life.

Speaker 3:

Thank you. Thank you for that, sona. I heard the idea of resources and parents taking care of themselves and resourcing them outside of the children, talking to friends, going to support groups, professionals to get help, so the kids don't have to be part of them getting help. And it's okay to be emotional in front of our kids, but doing it on a continuous basis is definitely going to have an effect emotionally on everyone that's in the family system and I just want to bounce this through you.

Speaker 3:

We're talking about targeted parents and we're talking about alienating parents and in my experience it's not a static experience. It's not just the parents, always the targeted parent and the parent is all the alienated parent. Sometimes a parent switches seats on the bus and even if I am the targeted parent, sometimes some of my behavior is not useful. Like we're saying, I break down, I cry in front of the kids, I do this or I behave to some extremes because I'm just trying to regulate myself. It's not good. So I just want to make sure that folks out there understand it's not just this black and white thing. There's all the different colors and the rainbows and the emotions and even in the alienating parent and in the targeted parent. We all fluctuate to all different degrees and places on the train, and I'm just curious do you agree with that? Do you have a different take on that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, I think that's true. In my practice. What I have seen are more extreme cases and so typically there is a targeted parent and there is an alienating parent and they aren't switching back. However, I think to your point, a targeted parent can have characteristics and moments or behaviors of an alienating parent, just because they're trying to fight for what they believe is right. But in my practice, like I said, right. But in my practice, like I said, I see more extreme cases and oftentimes the parent has a mental health diagnosis, so usually they're not bouncing back and forth.

Speaker 1:

But I will say what makes this so difficult whether it's an alienation case or just high conflict, divorce or sometimes just divorce in and of itself, the emotions are a roller coaster and you can feel happy in one moment and relieved that you're getting divorced, and then you know, 10 minutes later, feel like you're in despair and so and the kids feel that way too. So, and again we talk about regulation. So the kids are going to go on the roller coaster with us. So in my experience, I certainly think that that is true, but from what I've seen, I have more of the extreme. So the alienating parents kind of locked into it. I'll tell you this I've never seen an alienating parent become a targeted parent. That I have not seen.

Speaker 3:

That's really interesting. I would think, at a point when a relationship returns or transforms which is not I don't know what the percentages are when that actually happens that at some point a targeted parent has a lot more access and might become the primary parent, and there will be some characteristics that someone else on the other side could point to and say, hey, this targeted parent is having some alienating tendencies.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, I mean tendencies, but you know there's mild, moderate and severe levels, and I'm probably talking more from the severe level and when we see, you know, a parent turn around, that's usually at the certainly at the mild level, sometimes at the moderate level. So, yeah, I should have been more clear on what level I'm speaking on, but there is no. You know, again, this is what makes it so difficult.

Speaker 3:

A hundred percent. And I just want to take a second out here, for as a community cumulative, we can just take a breath because, no matter if we're on the show discussing this or you're listening to this, it's highly provocative and I can feel. I feel my face getting a little flushed and a little heated and we're having this conversation and some emotions are coming up and as you're listening out there in the car, be kind to yourself or at home, you know, take a couple breaths. This is, this is definitely provocative stuff out there. And with that we're going to segue into a different question.

Speaker 1:

Okay, can I ask a question real quick?

Speaker 3:

A hundred percent.

Speaker 1:

So I am curious, like what is coming up for you as my and I know here I am being the therapist, but out of curiosity for your audience too, of I mean I imagine they see you and know you to be so steady. I mean you have such a great presence about you. But I'm curious, like do you relive your own story as we talk through all that?

Speaker 3:

I don't so much relive my own story, but I do remember early on in my journey where there was really black and white thinking, where someone was right and someone was wrong. And for me and going on my own interpersonal journey is like I co-created a family system. I picked my partner, we parented and we created this household together and then I was the one that had a much more challenging journey. But I was part of the good and the bad. And just to say they're the only person that's doing something in the system is just not my lived experience. So that brings up some stuff where I see a lot of people really struggling, where they want to say this parent's all bad and they did all the stuff. And when I was in that place I suffered so much pain, so much anguish, so much sadness, so much anxiety, panic attacks, and once I started to take accountability for my part in it I got relief, you know. So that's the part that comes alive for me.

Speaker 1:

Okay, and you know what I can, I can relate to that in my own way and that, like I agree, we all have to see what we brought to the table. So for me it was codependency as the disease, as the co-addict, and so, you know, with that I brought enabling and loss of identity and all of the dysfunctional behavior. So, yes, I think it is important, if this is what you're saying, important to recognize the role we all play in this whole situation, the system I think that might be what you're saying, I'm not sure and that there's not one all bad, all good.

Speaker 3:

Parent on it really profoundly and talking about your own experience and going through it and seeing the codependency and giving away your identity and kind of losing yourself and then landing up in this position and the work that it sounds like you've done to actually see those parts of yourself are the parts where I'm presuming you found the most freedom and from that place of freedom then you actually were able to have sustainable change with your children. Would you attribute that to getting your relationships back in a different stage?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, oh my gosh, yeah. And also because I have amazing kids that showed me unconditional love and mercy, truly, because one of the things I did have to do is is go back and apologize to my kids for doing some things that in my healthy self, or healthy yourself, I probably would have made different choices. And so, and I think as parents whether it's divorce or not I mean I think you know all of us will have to go back and apologize for making some choices. You know, I mean hindsight's 20-20. We all I think most of us do the best we can with what we know at the time.

Speaker 1:

But in these kind of situations, in the high conflict, where the kids are being pulled by the tug of war, I do think it's important for all parents to do their work, that we don't victimize ourself. We don't want to teach our children that being a victim is an excuse to not do our work. And, yeah, we go back and are accountable and that teaches integrity and accountability. And I know that my children, while they may not have appreciated some of the choices I made, I think that they walked away respecting me after I did my work, and that's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 3:

I love that and we talk about parenting in this really complicated area and this idea of going back apologizing, doing our own work. It's this different kind of profound parenting where we're not telling the kids what to do or how to do it. We're showing them what we're doing and in that, and acknowledging our shortcomings, is where the real profound teaching and profound parenting really exists.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean that's vulnerability, and vulnerability is the key to intimacy, the deep connection, you know, intimacy with our children and our friends and family. And so without that vulnerability and the walls up, it's hard to connect. And so, heck yeah, I've got to do my work and teach my kids how to be vulnerable and honest and transparent. So there's a lot of beautiful things that come out of doing our own work.

Speaker 3:

A hundred percent. And this all dovetails into the question that I was going to ask how can a parent effectively teach their children about right and wrong while we're going through all these highs and lows and the conflict and the divorce and separation and parenting?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay. Well, I think what is so important is that parents teach their children a couple different things. One is that they're're valuable. The way in which we help our kids feel valuable is by being seen and heard and that we are, as parents, present. We see, we hear them, we're present and with our time and attention. And those are really five key factors that, if you can give that to your child, that will allow them be empowered to feel their uniqueness and be feeling special and their value.

Speaker 1:

And then also helping them deal with their own reality, which is like this is really hard and you have, like I'm sure you have a lot of conflicting feelings, and just just stating what it is, you know, and how difficult the situation is and that we're all imperfect.

Speaker 1:

That kind of goes back to what we were talking about being vulnerable and sometimes we get it wrong. And so you know, when we're talking about what do we teach our kids, we're going to do it through our own humanness, our own imperfection, and so helping kids recognize it's okay to apologize when we realize we've done something wrong, that we're imperfect, and then helping them. You know, when we talk about right and wrong, I mean certainly there are some rights and wrongs in this world. But I think you know, in this right and wrong I mean, there are some things that are right and wrong. But when we talk about counter parenting and we are trying to teach our children, kind of the right thing, I think you know, just allowing children to see that there are choices, you know you can choose to think this way or think this way but also teaching them that unfortunately, like they're going to be accountable to some of the consequences if they choose, you know, something that might not be right, if that makes sense.

Speaker 3:

It makes a lot of sense, and you touched on a couple of really good pieces there that I just want to circle back to, and the first one you spoke about was like acknowledging the kids' feelings are real, like this is a really difficult situation. This is really confusing. This is really hard, and not taking it personally as a parent that they're hating on you, but that the kid's going through a really hard time and humanizing it and making what they feel welcome in the conversation too. Like that feels like such an important part that a lot of parents are fighting against. They're trying to convince the kid of a different reality of their reality, instead of actually acknowledging the kid's reality. And in acknowledging the kid's reality starts a place to actually start the conversation. Is that something similar to what you're saying?

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, yes. And so you know, I always tell parents it takes time to go figure out what kind of stage your child's in, what developmental stage your child is in, Like, go learn Erickson's stages of development. Because here's why. Because parents will say well, you know, we're going to tell them about that, that we're going to get divorced, and they're going to tell this eight-year-old child, nine-year-old child, mom and dad are going to get divorced. That child has no idea what divorce means.

Speaker 1:

And so we, we assume that these kids can conceptualize and understand what these very adult topics are. And so I think it's really important when you say, like you know, parents shouldn't personalize things. I mean, these kids are just trying to figure stuff out and they've only been alive, some of them for seven years, eight years, nine years. I mean that's not very long. Alive, some of them for seven years, eight years, nine years. I mean that's not very long. And so it's really important that parents remember the children and where they are developmentally and that their brain, you know, is not fully formed until 24 or some say 26. And then explain things from that perspective. But I think so many times we just assume these little ones know, and even 13, 14, that they know what we're talking about and they know what to expect when we say divorce.

Speaker 3:

I love it Developmentally. We really need to consider where the kids are when we're having some of these conversations that are simple for us but super complex developmentally for them. I love that you brought that into the conversation and really, really, really important. And the other word that you've mentioned a couple times is counter-parenting and, like, when I hear counter-parenting, the definition that comes up in my head is one parent's doing something one way and the other parent's doing something completely the opposite way, trying to unwind what their parents doing. Would that be a definition of counter parenting?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have so many clients that come in and they're in high conflict, divorce, these alienation cases, and they're like I want to co -parent with my ex and I say, well, forget that, because you guys are not candidates, so let's forget that one. And not even are you going to parallel parent, meaning like I'm going to have my rules at your house, you're going to have your rules, but we're going to respect each other's rules. Half of them aren't even there. Then we go to the counter parenting where, yeah, that includes bad mouthing, the disparaging remarks, parenting in such a way that will offset or cause rifts in the other parents' home. Doing something opposite, almost just for fun, I suppose, or for I don't know, I can't think of a better word. But yeah, just doing the opposite and hoping and almost with the intent to hurt, is what counter-parenting is. Hurt the child, but certainly hurt the parent. The child will be the byproduct in the parent's mind, but actually I would say the child is primarily the one that's hurt the most.

Speaker 3:

There's an extreme case of counter-parenting. What are two or three things that you could tell the parents out there that are feeling that this is part of the dynamic? What are the two or three most important things you can tell them to do when they're in this situation? Wow, wow and wow. What a great show and interesting show. You know it was a. It was really challenging to kind of like drop in in the beginning and we restarted the show the one time and uh and so cool, because it's exactly what parenting is.

Speaker 3:

Parenting is challenging, having conversations about this is challenging and sometimes we just need to take our time and reset and let go of the script and where we think we're going. And that's kind of what the show was today and that has been my experience with parenting. So I really want to thank Emily for coming out for this first part of the show and it was great and it's informative and a bunch of great stuff. In the show notes for you, there's the link to Parental Alienation Anonymous, our free 12-step program, where we spoke about support and community and just having one person in your life is not enough to support you through the stuff and it's not the kids' jobs to support you through the stuff. Find your community and it might not be PAA, it might be through another organization, through another service, through a spiritual realm or whatever it is, but get resourced. And the second part of the show with Emily is going to be great and again, her information is in the show notes and she does do some Q&As and some parenting classes and stuff like that, which are phenomenal.

Speaker 3:

And, uh, if you're new to the community, love, love having you here. And uh, if no one's told you yet, today, I love you. I hope you have a beautiful day. We'd love to hear from you my emails in the show notes. Uh, family disappeared at gmailcom. If you got any suggestions, likes, dislikes, and please remember to comment and like on all the social media channels. Love to hear what you have to say Good, bad and indifferent. The more voices that are heard here, the better. Thank you, have a beautiful night and I will see you around the neighborhood.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.