Family Disappeared

Trauma Bonding: The Hidden Heart of Parental Alienation Part 1 - Episode 77

• Lawrence Joss

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In this episode of the Family Disappeared podcast, Lawrence Joss engages with Randi Fine, a narcissistic abuse expert, to delve into the complexities of trauma bonding and narcissistic relationships. They explore the nuances of narcissism, the signs of narcissistic behavior, and the psychological impact of trauma bonds. Randi explains how these unhealthy attachments form and the challenges they present, especially in the context of parental alienation. The conversation emphasizes the importance of recognizing manipulative behaviors and the need for support in breaking free from these toxic cycles.

Key Takeaways

  • Trauma bonding is an unhealthy attachment formed in toxic relationships.
  • Narcissistic personality disorder is a serious condition, not just narcissistic tendencies.
  • Intermittent reinforcement keeps victims trapped in a cycle of hope and despair.
  • Children can exhibit narcissistic behaviors due to parental alienation, but it doesn't mean they have NPD.
  • The healing process from narcissistic abuse can take time and requires support.
  • Narcissists manipulate their victims through charm and neglect.
  • It's crucial to recognize red flags early in relationships with narcissists.
  • The cycle of abuse often includes love bombing followed by devaluation.
  • Breaking free from a trauma bond requires understanding and support.
  • Being nice to a narcissist often leads to more abuse, not less.


Randi Fine : https://www.randifine.com/

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Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

Speaker 1:

You think this is love, you think this is a budding relationship and it's love and you get very attached. But what happens is when everything changes once that commitment is solidified and the narcissist really begins this whole cycle of abuse and intermittent reinforcement and love and rejection and liking everything about you, then not liking anything about you when that's withdrawn from you, when you start to see the changes in the narcissist, all you want to do is get back that feeling of I'm okay and I'm loved and I'm accepted for exactly who I am. And so you will go through these cycles over and over and over. It's very quick to happen with love bombing. That's really the purpose of love bombing is to get you trauma bonded.

Speaker 2:

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. Hi, my name is Lawrence Joss and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast.

Speaker 2:

Today we have Randy Fine back on the show and she is a rock star. She's a narcissistic abuse expert and she's been on the show once before. And today we're going to expand the conversation. We're going to be concentrating a lot around trauma bonding, which is a fascinating conversation and so nuanced. And for me personally, I learned so much about my behaviors, past relationship, how I've shown up and just see different layers and levels of what's happening within the family system and how parental alienation has taken hold through this lens of narcissistic abuse and trauma bonding. If you're new to the community. You're going to land on a pretty intense show. Please take care of yourself, take some breaths. You know listening pieces, if that's useful to you, and again, randy's phenomenal Her resources are going to be in the show notes contact information. She has hundreds of articles she's written and videos and all kinds of wonderful stuff. And if you have any comments or there's anything on the show that we don't fully get deep enough into or some questions that I miss asking, please just send me an email directly at familydisappeared at gmailcom and I will try circle back to those things. There was a lot of information coming at me so I did what I could. And if you're looking for extra support, we have a free 12-step program Parental Alienation Anonymous. The link is in the show notes. Have a free 12-step program Parental Alienation Anonymous. The link is in the show notes. Life-saving beautiful community has helped me so much through the narcissistic abuse or just all these different things that I've been dealing with. It's really given me a framework of empowerment to really build myself up again and get to know myself again. So that's an extra important pitch today because this is a pretty intense subject matter.

Speaker 2:

And with that let's jump into the show with Randy, you know, just to share a quick story with you, like when I was going through parental alienation in the early stages, you know, and my ex had asked me to leave the house, all I wanted to do was get back into the house. All I wanted to do was get my family back, and I did that by centering my ex and I just wanted her to love me the way she had loved me early on. You know, early on she had loved me so much. I never felt love that way. It was so, so, so intense and it was like that for a while and then it started to dissipate and she started to withdraw the love. And this is my experience. So this is true or not true for her I'm not speaking for anyone else and with this drawing this love, the anxiety, the fear, the panic attack, the feeling out of control, the inability to show up for my life started to happen and things started to fall apart and I started to lose myself a bit.

Speaker 2:

And in losing myself a bit and trying to combat parental alienation at the same time it's impossible to manage those two things at the same time and that's when I got involved in 12-step programs and started to find myself and find community again and continue to make a lot of mistakes, but it gave me a foundation and something to stand on and a community to support me going forward so I could start to unwind and deprogram and relearn who I was and that was my best parenting that I've ever done right. My relationships with my kids didn't get better or haven't magically been renewed, but I am available and I am a present parent and I've worked through these things that that were limiting how I could show up in the world. And was I to blame for everything? Definitely not. You know what I mean. Like I was in a relationship that wasn't good for me and it's what I knew and I loved it in the time and getting out of it. It took me seven or eight years after separation, after divorce, to finally be able to let go of everything completely.

Speaker 2:

So this is a slow process and we talk about this in the interview and you don't have to take that much time. There's resources like this out there, there's professionals out there doing some great work, there's support groups out there doing great work. So just take a breath if you're in the middle of this and know that hey, there's a quicker route. You don't have to go the route that I went and the route that so many other people are going. There's definitely a way to take care of yourself sooner. And thanks for coming out to listen to the show and let's jump into the conversation with Randy. Randy, it's so great to have you back on the show. I'm really excited to see where our conversation goes today. And, for anyone new to the show, if you could please just introduce yourselves, let us know a little bit about you and then we'll jump into the questions.

Speaker 1:

Sure, hi Lawrence. I'm Randy Fine. I'm a narcissistic abuse expert and a recovery coach. I'm a podcast host of A Fine Time for Healing, which I've been doing. I'm kind of on a hiatus right now, but I did it for like 12 years and I may resume it. I'm the author of Close Encounters of the Worst Kind Narcissistic Abuse Survivors Comprehensive Guide to Healing and Recovery, and I specialize in working with people who have suffered abuse at the hands of disordered personality disordered individuals.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, Randy. Thank you for that and again for folks that are new to the show, can you just define the difference between narcissism and narcissistic tendencies, Because we tend to use these words as if they're the same thing but, as you explained to us last time, they definitely are not.

Speaker 1:

Narcissism. I mean narcissism can be equated to the ego, really, and we all have levels of narcissism and there's age appropriate narcissism. Children are very narcissistic, they're just self-focused, but it doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with them. It's actually a healthy part of development and we all have that. What I focus on is narcissistic personality disorder, which is very manipulative, very controlling, very entitled. So these are not relationships where you can really function within them, because you're not really considered a partner or you know you're not part of this relationship. You're just kind of a pawn in the game. So when I talk about this, you know people often say oh, everybody says narcissistic. You know, narcissism the word is so overblown. I am not talking about being narcissistic, I am talking about a full blown personality disorder and it is a very serious disorder which is almost identical to those that psychopaths and sociopaths have. So this is serious.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for that, and you mentioned a couple of things in your explanation I just want to touch on before I jump into the questions. You said with a narcissist you're just kind of like a pawn. You're not really there, you're just the next object that they plug and play and then, once they're done with you, they just move on to someone else. So you're literally just a widget. No matter what you do or don't do, it doesn't really make any difference in the relationship. Is that accurate?

Speaker 1:

That's absolutely accurate. A relationship is two people that are coming together for some mutual reason, for a goal, to build a relationship. When you think about like love relationships, romantic relationships, you want to be with somebody who you're going to grow together and they're going to consider your needs and there's going to be compromise. With a narcissist, you're nothing but just a pawn on a chessboard that they move around as needed. And you know, and we want to believe that this is in fact a relationship and narcissists will encourage us to believe that, but it's not true. And if you've been in a relationship with a narcissist, you will realize that your needs, wants, feelings are never considered.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for that. I think that's a really important nuance and it's super personal. But also, looking at it from that aspect and realizing you're just a widget that gets plugged in and plugged out in the healing process, I got to believe it is a really useful part of the healing process which we're going to get into. And then one other thing that you mentioned is you said some narcissistic tendencies in children are developmentally okay and it's what's actually going on and I know for me in my journey with parental alienation, at times I thought that my kids were really narcissistic. Can you talk a little bit about this developmental thing that goes on with kids and what's okay and how we as parents can kind of digest that differently than judging our kids?

Speaker 1:

Parental alienation can look very narcissistic. Okay, when I talk about developmental, you know babies are very normal for a baby to be narcissistic. Once they see their image in the mirror, they look at their hands. They're very, very self-focused. As we age, as children age, as they mature, they pull away from that. So, like a teenager, a teenage child who's acting narcissistic, that is not what's considered normal developmental narcissism. If parental alienation is the situation.

Speaker 1:

And it's very difficult to determine the difference between a child who has developed NPD narcissistic personality disorder and one who is alienated, because the behavior can look very much the same.

Speaker 1:

The difference is that this personality doesn't really concretely form until the child is 18 years old and it's really in place by the time they're 23. So when you're seeing an alienated child, a parentally alienated child who is behaving this way, it doesn't necessarily mean that they have narcissistic personality disorder. What they have is a lot of confusion around what their role is and who they're supposed to love. So a lot of times when they're acting so rude and nasty and horrible to the alienated parent, it's not really because of their narcissistic. It's because they are fighting with confusion in their brain about not being able to love that parent and so that they lash out and they can say some very horrible things to an alienated parent, but it's not necessarily narcissism. I actually did a presentation on this which, lawrence, I'll send you and you can actually attach it to this so people can see the difference between you know how to know if your child has become narcissistic.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I love that you have a paper and some research done on that. I think that'll be incredibly useful.

Speaker 1:

It's actually a video. It's a video that people can watch.

Speaker 2:

Even better than a paper, and I'm just thinking for myself and some of my interactions with my children and the times that I went to a while. You're acting narcissistic or you're a narcissist or whatever like that, and just you like humanizing it. They're just trying to battle with this idea. Do I love, do I not love, what's going on? Where do I belong? How do I live? How do I survive? So I think that's an incredibly useful piece of information and thank you for that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'll definitely send that to you.

Speaker 2:

Wonderful and we'll put that in the show notes folks, so anyone that's listening it'll be available to you and yeah, should be some wonderful stuff. So let's jump into some of the questions here. So what are some early warning signs or red flags that someone might have if they have narcissistic tendencies or a narcissistic or a narcissist?

Speaker 1:

Right, exactly, okay. So one thing that narcissists all do is they're very explosive in their reactions to criticism. So a narcissist cannot process, internalize, accept that there's anything wrong with them. It's not that they don't want to. They literally cannot. The nature of the disorder is that it doesn't get in. So they will react very explosively, violently, or you may see the silent treatment. What you'll see is you know, if you even say something remotely, it doesn't even matter how you couch it. You can say, oh, I really wish you wouldn't say it like that, or I may have a different opinion, or something like that. What you're going to get is a very strong reaction of some sort. Another thing is narcissists are victims. They like to play victim and in every scenario that they talk about whether they're blaming an ex or they're talking about what happened when they were children or whatever they will always represent themselves in every scenario as a victim. They can never take responsibility for something that happened it was always happened to them. So you'll notice that they have a great need for external validation and admiration.

Speaker 1:

Now, in the beginning, when you're first meeting a narcissist, you may not notice these things, but if you spend any time with them, you absolutely will. One thing is, you will notice that you feel drained or kind of confused. Your head will kind of start to spin around them, and often they say things that don't necessarily make sense or the pieces just don't fit. You know, if what I always tell people is verify and verify and verify everything that you're told, because sometimes they will say outrageous things and you're like, wow, you know, that's kind of impressive, or really they, you know, they really did do that or whatever. But if it seems too good to be true, it usually is In romantic relationships they want to move things along very quickly.

Speaker 1:

They want to rush you into something because the behavior or personality that they're showing is not authentic and they can't keep it up. They can't keep that ruse up for very long. So what they want to do is move this along as quickly as possible so that they can lock you in and then they can really act the way that they want to act and start treating you with the disrespect and the disregard and that kind of thing. You'll also find excessive commonalities, and so to somebody that's meeting a narcissist for the first time, especially in a romantic relationship, you'll be like, oh well, we really have a lot in common.

Speaker 1:

But they will do that. They're going to lead you into questions, they're going to pick your brain and try to find out where it is that the things that you really enjoy doing, the kind of music that you enjoy doing and they will be like you know that's amazing, because I like the same things and you'll think, well, I really have met my match. Okay, what you'll notice along the way is manipulative behavior and a cycle of rushing you through things, like I said, but there'll be phases of charm and there'll be phases of neglect. So they may really come on strong initially and then you'll find they won't be responding to your texts and it'd be like well, you know, they seem.

Speaker 1:

This person seems so interested in me and and then there'll be back and they'll be full in, and then you know. So there's a lot of inconsistencies thank you for that.

Speaker 2:

that's a lot of great information, the grandioseness, the, the being a, the victim, you know really, you know aligning with what you like as a, as a way to kind of like get into your psyche and get you kind of hooked on what they're doing. And um, there was one thing that you, you said in there you also mentioned this this idea of not responding to texts, withdrawing love and what I've seen, which I'm not sure if this is a narcissist, and I've seen this more in some parent-child relationships, where one parent is really a mesh, really really close with the kid and in order to control the, the child, they withdraw the love so that this love channel goes away. And then the kid, and in order to control the child, they withdraw the love, so this love channel goes away and then the kid starts getting anxious and fearful and stuff like that, and then they give them back the love and then the kid kind of comes back to a middle ground. Would that be considered narcissistic or would that be considered a narcissistic tendency?

Speaker 1:

I don't really use the word tendency too much because to me, if you have narcissistic personality disorder, you have it. I don't see narcissistic personality disorder as existing on a spectrum, as is often talked about. When you hear about a spectrum, what they're talking about is healthy narcissism on one end of the spectrum and full-blown NPD on the other. Once somebody has narcissistic personality disorder, it is there. Okay, there's no tendencies. The behavior is full-blown and, as I said, so as that's budding. It may be budding in childhood, but once it's fully formed, by the age of between 18 and 23, it is fully there. So any behavior that you see is full blown and pooping.

Speaker 2:

Just for clarification. I'm hearing that you don't use narcissistic tendencies and someone's a full blown narcissist or they're not. And if they're not, and they're just kind of like involved in themselves, or they have these mechanisms that they're using or strategies that they got from their family of origin to move through life, what would you call that? If you're not calling it a narcissistic tendency, just a person that's growing up?

Speaker 1:

Manipulative.

Speaker 2:

Manipulative Okay.

Speaker 1:

I mean, you know, children who grow up with narcissistic parents, who don't necessarily become narcissists. They learn manipulation and they learn strategies from the best.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the idea of manipulation. They're learning strategies, these are the coping mechanisms they bring into their life and it's completely separate. I like that you're not into this continuum and it's a narcissistic personality disorder or you know when it's manipulative or some other word that's. That's really useful in my head as far as languaging goes, and I want to move this conversation in the direction of of a trauma bond, because this is really relevant in in narcissistic personalities and in relationship to parental alienation. So what exactly is a trauma bond and how does it form in relationships and why?

Speaker 1:

So a trauma bond is an unhealthy attachment that happens in dangerous, shameful or exploitive situations, and it is a human emotion. It's not a character flaw. It's something that actually develops to keep victims trapped in a cycle of toxicity and control. This can happen whether they're in the relationship or long after they've left the abusive relationship. So this is loyalty and love that forms between the abuser and the victim. It's not based on love or genuine care, but this toxic dynamic of power, control and mainly intermittent reinforcement. And so intermittent reinforcement is where survivors or victims of this kind of abuse will experience moments of kindness and affection and then they'll be interspersed with devaluation and irrational outbursts. So this creates this cycle of hope and despair. It's back and forth. So it's abuse and positive reinforcement, abuse and positive reinforcement. And then, after each cycle of abuse, the abuser professes love and regret and tries to make the relationship feel safe, and the abused person needs that so desperately that they buy into that.

Speaker 2:

I want to give the folks out there, like a real life, what it looks like. And if we use me as an example, like I'm in a relationship to someone, I'm deeply attracted to them. They give me this huge outpouring of love. I fall deeply in love with them. Then they move away, completely shut down, and then they come back, give me some love to keep me hooked. Is that what a trauma bond is?

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's what a trauma bond is, so you know. So what you'll see if you're, if somebody is on the outside looking in, is you're going to see the person in this trauma bond do things that don't make sense. They may come to you and you can even see that they've been physically assaulted or something like that, but they'll go back and they'll say but I love that person, I love that person and I can't be away from that person.

Speaker 1:

And it really does feel like love to a person who is trauma bonded. It feels very much like love and it's very deep love and it's very deep attachment. But what you are is dependent on that person to control how you feel. So it's all about really external validation. You know when you're loved, you're loved. When you're not, you're hurt. But you want the love back.

Speaker 1:

And actually the trauma bond with a narcissist forms very early, because what they do in the love bombing stage is they get you very dependent on the high and the external reinforcement. So you think this is love, you think this is a budding relationship and it's love and you get very attached. So but what happens is when everything changes once that commitment is solidified and the narcissist really begins this whole phase of this whole cycle of abuse and intermittent reinforcement and love and rejection and you know liking everything about you, then not liking anything about you. When that's withdrawn from you, when you start to see the changes in the narcissist, all you want to do is get back that feeling of I'm okay and I'm loved and I'm accepted for exactly who I am, and so you will go through these cycles over and over and over. It's very quick to happen with love bombing. That's really the purpose of love bombing is to get you trauma bonded.

Speaker 2:

Just for clarification. Like we're talking about trauma bonding and people are thinking it's like these big, big overtures. But I'm also curious. There's also subtleties to it. It's not always so grandiose and overt. It's just like I'm the only person in your life. I love you, I'll always be there. There'll be no one else for you, and it's really these like subtleties that are just as dangerous as these big gestures. Is that accurate?

Speaker 1:

Oh, it is the subtleties, most of this kind of abuse. You know, if you think about somebody getting into a cult, it doesn't just happen with a big, you know overture, like you say, of love and affection. It's a subtlety of join us, we're your people, we're where you're going to get your validation, we're where you're going to get your love, you know. And narcissists are brilliant in their ability to condition and brainwash somebody very subtly and very slowly. So when this is happening to you, you will not notice it, it will feel very normal to you.

Speaker 2:

And in a parent-child relationship. If a parent is a narcissist and has a child in the belly or the kids are young, they start to use these subtleties to plug into the child's nervous system. So they need this love. And then they use this mechanism of subtle love I'm the only parent, this is the only one you can love. This is the only one you can love. This is the only person you can trust. And then they withdraw that love to control this kid, to get them to do what they want, and eventually the child kind of loses himself in this trauma bond.

Speaker 1:

Right, and that's one aspect of parental alienation that, lawrence, actually begins from birth. Okay, so this begins. So a baby requires, you know, they just are so at the mercy of that parent's love, but maybe that parent will stand there when that baby's crying for a minute and just not do anything. Okay, the conditioning begins very, very early. So the child learns. I need to give, to get you know another part of this thing, you know.

Speaker 1:

So with parental alienation there's, yes, trauma, bonding is absolutely part of it, but it's not the entire thing, because it is just a natural drive of any child to want the love of their parents. Okay, it doesn't matter. I mean, we hear about children who are physically abused and they just want to be with their parents. Okay, they don't want to lose their parents. So a child naturally wants to be with a parent, whether or not they're abusive or not.

Speaker 1:

And with parental alienation, a good parent has very little pull against an abusive parent. And I say that because the child knows where they get their love and that's a given to them. They want the love of the parent that they have to work for and in their heart of hearts they know where they get their unconditional love. But that doesn't matter. And for a child to accept that a parent doesn't love them unconditionally would just crush them, would crush their world, and so they just can't go there. You know, denial is a really powerful mechanism. Adults use it, children do it, children use it. We're able to really deny things. That will protect us ultimately.

Speaker 2:

That's super powerful. The denial aspect, like the kids can't actually get really into this. This idea of breaking down what the love looks like, because just the idea of them not being loved unconditionally is probably will kill them or put them into some kind of cycle. Yeah, what a scary thing.

Speaker 2:

And I'm just going to share a tiny part of my story with you is when I initially separated from my ex and I was trying to get my family back and it really felt like the access point to getting my family back was getting my ex back.

Speaker 2:

So I would send to her, instead of centering the kids, like she was kind of like the gatekeeper.

Speaker 2:

And I remember one time coming home and just just visiting the house because I wasn't in the house and just wanting the relationship so badly and actually getting down on my knees and telling her that I was willing to give up my whole family and I'd have no more contact with my family if she'd just take me back. So I just want to like highlight this for anyone out there that's listening. Like this is my lived experience and in that moment she was the most important person in the world. I just wanted her to continue loving me in the way that I'd been accustomed to and that had been completely shut off. Even going through divorce, that mechanism was still in place in my nervous system and I reacted to it and and I was basically at her beck and call when she would turn that love back on. And I got to think this is super common in parental alienation and other relationships where instead of centering the kids and really focusing on that, we're focusing on the gatekeeper because we need our supply as well. Is that pretty accurate?

Speaker 1:

You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. I mean you are trauma bonded and you are, yes, there. You know it's a chemical. There's so many things at play here, but there is a chemical brain addiction to a narcissist and it does begin in the very beginning. It does begin with the love bombing. They do get you chemically addicted to them. You know, I say narcissists really are the most dangerous creatures walking this earth, because what they can do to our brains without us realizing it is mind blowing. And they can do it very quick. You know there's a lot of mental illnesses out there. But this is actually a mental disorder. It's not necessarily an illness. This is actually a mental disorder. It's not necessarily an illness.

Speaker 1:

But what a narcissist can do, they burrow into your psyche very quickly and they take control of you. And you know people say to me when they get out of these relationships they always say I can't believe the way I acted when I was in the middle of this relationship. I'm so embarrassed, I'm humiliated. Why would I do that? And I say because when you're in the middle of it, you don't have a choice. Your brain has been taken over, they are in control, they are the puppet masters. And that's so hard to imagine, because when you get out of it and you do kind of clear the cobwebs out of your head and you start to heal and you realize the mechanisms that were at play, it's really, really upsetting to think that you fell prey to this. But there is no way, in the middle of a relationship with a narcissist, to not be at their psychological control. You can't not do it.

Speaker 2:

And the life cycle, even once a relationship ends of actually getting out, and completely cutting these ties to the trauma, bond or the connection. This can take five years, two years, 10 years. This can be a really, really long process to finally cut those tiny little hidden strands, and is that what you usually see with the folks that you work with.

Speaker 1:

Right. So you know, and it really depends, and it's really why I say that it's so important when you get out of these relationships, it's so important to find somebody, a therapist or a coach or whatever, or someone like what I do, to get you deprogrammed. Okay, which sounds like a whole big thing. It's really not, because you're doing the work, all right, but what I do is I guide people, I dive in, I guide people and I get this programming out of them and I'm able to do it very quickly. So it doesn't. If somebody is working with me, it's not going to take them three years, five years, maybe one, and often less than that. Often less than that because I know how to do it.

Speaker 1:

But the tendency for people when they get out of relationships with narcissists is they don't understand the devastation that has actually happened to them. People will say, well, is it as bad as I think it is? And I always tell them worse, it was much worse. You have no idea what was done to you, because this affects your nervous system, it affects you psychologically. It affects you psychologically, it affects you emotionally and what you'll do is, if you do not get this programming out of you, you will repeat this behavior over and over or you will struggle with the feelings and the repercussions of it.

Speaker 1:

It's so important, but the tendency for people is to try to do it themselves. Well, I'll get over this Time, will heal this, I'll move through this. This is absolutely not true, and it's why many people who come to me, they come to me after their third narcissistic relationship or marriage or whatever it is, because after the third one, it's like they realize I keep doing this and I know the signs, I know what I'm looking for, I know how to see it, and yet the conditioning is so very deep that you will repeat this pattern over and over and over again.

Speaker 2:

Wow, that's fascinating in that it takes three relationships and I can relate to that and that makes a lot of sense. And just touching on this trauma bond again and this idea of love and attachment, the trauma bond feels so incredibly like the deepest kind of love like you've ever felt, like it engulfs you and warms your whole body and it's like like you found the holy grail and that's what people feel. But is is that related to something earlier on, developmentally like for people that they've experienced that from, to something earlier on developmentally like for people that they've experienced that from another parent or in a different relationship, or some form of attachment with an adult when they're really young, or does this just kind of happen? No?

Speaker 1:

no, no, no. And it, you know, and it can happen. So I just wanted to pull out something that I wanted to. I mean it doesn't just happen in love relationships, you know, it can happen in hostage situations. You know these are people. I mean you have soldiers who have been in the army, who they're perfectly normal until they get into the hostage situation. Yeah, I mean. So it doesn't just have to happen in love relationships, it can happen in any kind of relationship. It is the mechanism of the intermittent reinforcement.

Speaker 1:

Narcissists do this. You know people will often say to me listen, I know I've said some really horrible things about this person, but there is good, they do have a good side. There is, they do good things. And I say, well, let me explain to you what the good things are that they do.

Speaker 1:

Because a person with narcissistic personality disorder has no intention of doing good in this world. No intention, there's nothing within them, there's no benevolence in their personality. So what they do is they use this very powerful tactic of intermittent reinforcement where they give you, they're very wonderful to you, and then they withdraw it. So there's a cycle. So you may see that you know, sometimes they'll do something very nice for you. But that will never last. And if you really track it, if you journal it, if you write it down, if you really track it, you're going to see that there's a pattern to this. It doesn't last. They only do it to suck you back in.

Speaker 1:

And especially, narcissists are very psychically intuitive. They know their victims, they know the subtle changes. As a matter of fact, like when I'm working with somebody who is in the process of maybe trying to get out of a marriage like this and I always instruct them you have to act, you have to try to be normal Inevitably the narcissist will pick up on something that this person is changing. They just know it. And if they feel like you're trying to pull away, that's when an intermittent reinforcement will get used on you. So all of a sudden they'll be wonderful and you'll say I really, maybe I'm looking at this wrong, because you know what. They're not all bad. You know she's not all bad. He's not all bad. You know. Look what he just did for me. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so I'm wrong, so it's. But this is all deliberate. Understand that everything a narcissist says to you and everything they do is all deliberate. It's all orchestrated. It's orchestrated to keep you off balance, because if you're, if you catch some equilibrium, you're going to figure them out.

Speaker 2:

And I'm just thinking on my own personal experience and a lot of different stories I've heard from parents where they again think, like the other parent has some kind of access to the kids and if they're just nice enough to them then they'll give them access.

Speaker 2:

And they continuously exert all this energy of trying to build some kind of bridge with the parent where it's just reinforcing the need to have that parent like them or say something good about them, but it has nothing to really do with re-establishing these relationships with the kids. And can you talk about that a little bit, like, how do we stop needing this supply or some kind of admission from the other parent? And, yeah, how do we concentrate on the kids so we can really start to mend that and maybe interrupt some of the cycle for ourselves? Cause I feel like I perpetuated a lot of these behaviors myself by continuously showing the kids that I'm going here to get the supply. I'm going here, so what you're doing is fine too. You're doing what I'm doing, you know. And then I want to say the kids are doing something wrong and they're treating me badly, but I acted the same way, you know.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, right. So what's really important to understand is the nicer you are to a narcissist, the more abused you'll be.

Speaker 2:

That's pretty direct. I just I felt my body go. It is.

Speaker 1:

It's very true, the nicer you are. So because what they need to understand is that there's places that you will not let them go. So you have to be tough, and that means no eye contact with them. They have different ways of manipulating and getting what they want. So a narcissist strategy is to beat you down, wear you down, make you feel bad about yourself right. But when that doesn't work and you know, and I always tell my clients, you know, just just, if you don't believe what I'm saying, just give this a try. Okay, they're coming at you, they're being really nasty to you and you just go. Okay, I'll take that under consideration, maybe I'll think about that. And then they ramp it up. Okay, then it gets. They get worse, but you are this and that. And I say, and people say, but they always get worse. I say that's right, so just go. I hear you. So listen, I'm going to go in the other room and go read you know my book and then they follow you and just go. I heard you. I'm thinking about it Now.

Speaker 1:

If you continually do this what you'll notice is they will stop treating you that way and they'll get very nice, and what this shows you is they're using it as a strategy. Okay, so the tougher you are, the nicer they get, because when mean doesn't work, they try something else and they got a whole bag of strategies that they'll use on you and it's really interesting to watch them go through this. And that's when you can really understand and I have people do this because I want people to understand the mechanisms that are being used against them. It's strategy. They're not thinking the things they're saying about you. They don't hate you.

Speaker 1:

They don't think you're the worst father in the world. They don't think you're bad for the kids. They're only saying what's getting them reaction and what's getting them to manipulate the children against you. And the other thing is it's real important to know in a parental alienation situation is that with a narcissist you're either compliant or you're the enemy. There's no gray area. There's no gray area, which is why, when you're trying to navigate this by being nice, if you're not in their life and you're not giving them what they want, nice doesn't get you anything, but it makes them think you're a schmuck. You know it's like what a fool he's doing. He's exactly you know. No, nice doesn't get you anything.

Speaker 1:

So once you've stopped giving to a narcissist, once you stop being fully compliant which means you're married to them and they're controlling you you are the enemy. So you have to understand your role in this. And when you're the enemy, they want to see you suffer and that doesn't stop. They will till the day they die or you die. Every waking moment is how can I make that person suffer? Children, use the children. It's war. It's war has been declared upon you and you have to fight the war.

Speaker 2:

There's so much you just said and all that stuff, my head's swimming a little bit so I'm just going to regress a tiny bit to one thing that you said before which I was just curious and I think some other parents and grandparents would be curious about that. You said after three relationships, people come to you and it usually takes about a year working with someone that's really qualified around narcissistic abuse. What does this say for, like, our kids? Like what? Is there an early intervention? Do they need to go through their own cycle? Is it going to take them a year of working with the therapist when they're in their thirties or forties after three relationships? Like what? How does that look like with younger folks? And where's there some kind of recovery or some kind of relief or some kind of letting go of some of these, these actions? Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.

Speaker 2:

Randy gets a lot of wiles and I'm, I'm, I'm a little drained and, uh, a little inundated, and inundated just means like a lot of stuff was coming at me that I was processing personally as I was going through the conversation with randy and trying to stay present to ask the questions, and I'm hoping it was a useful episode. There's so many things to touch on there and so many things to talk about, and I really appreciate Randy coming on and her professionalism, her knowledge and her experience. Like you can tell, she's been doing this for a long time and that she has direct experience in this and is such a wonderful human being on the front lines doing this work for so many different people. Thank you, randy, and remember to check the show notes for all Randy's information. My email address is in there. Family disappeared at gmailcom.

Speaker 2:

Love to hear feedback. Please like, share, leave comments, ask questions, get involved. You know what I mean Like. The more we hear from you, the more we can provide to you. If there's any other subjects that you hear us starting to talk about you want to hear more about, let us know and come out and join the 12-step community. You know this will get aired right after the holidays and if you happen to listen to this right when it comes out, come join some community. It's really helpful as you go through these longest stretches of holidays and times in the year and if you're listening to this at a different time, come out and hang out. Anyway, and thank you for coming out If no one's told you yet today, I love you and for myself, lawrence, I love you.

Speaker 2:

This is intense sometimes, and it's a really nice affirmation when I remind myself that I love myself. So I love you, I love me. You know, and let's see what happens next, and I hope to see you around the neighborhood and have a beautiful day. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.