Family Disappeared

Trauma Bonding: The Hidden Heart of Parental Alienation Part 2 - Episode 78

• Lawrence Joss

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In this episode of the Family Disappeared podcast, Lawrence Joss continues his conversation with Randi Fine, an expert on narcissistic personality disorders. They delve into the complexities of trauma bonding, the effects of parental alienation on children, and the importance of reunification therapy. Randi explains the role of 'flying monkeys' in narcissistic relationships and emphasizes the need for internal validation and resilience in the healing process. The discussion also highlights the critical role of legal support for parents fighting for their children in cases of parental alienation.

Key Takeaways

  • Trauma bonding can lead to unhealthy relationships.
  • Children affected by parental alienation need reunification therapy.
  • Narcissists often use 'flying monkeys' to manipulate others.
  • Internal validation is crucial for healing from narcissistic abuse.
  • Legal support is essential for parents in custody battles.
  • The effects of narcissistic abuse can be lifelong.
  • It's important to recognize reactive behaviors in abusive relationships.
  • Support from family and friends is vital for those in trauma bonds.
  • Healing is a continuous process that requires resilience.
  • Acknowledging one's own behavior is key to rebuilding relationships.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Trauma Bonding and Narcissism
04:23 The Impact of Parental Alienation on Children
10:42 Understanding the Role of Flying Monkeys
12:35 Reconnecting with Ex-Flying Monkeys
18:04 The Importance of Internal Validation
24:17 Fighting for Children in the Legal System


Randi Fine : https://www.randifine.com/

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This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
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Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

Speaker 1:

Any child who has been abused by a narcissistic parent, whether they're in an intact family or an alienated family, is going to suffer for the rest of their life the repercussions of what has happened to them.

Speaker 2:

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. Hi, my name is Lawrence Joss and welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast.

Speaker 2:

Today we have part two with Randy Fine, a specialist and expert on narcissistic personality disorders. And wow, the first half of the conversation was ridiculous. And if you're new to the show we had Randy on maybe three or four months ago, go back and listen to those episodes. We'll put a link on the screen for you and a link in the show notes so you can do that if you haven't listened to the previous episodes. And today we're just going to continue the conversation around trauma, bonding and the different nuances that are related to that. This is the part two. Again, listen to part one before you listen to this. It's really useful to have that continuum. And Randy is a wonderful human being and an expert. All her information is in the show notes. Our information is in the show notes.

Speaker 2:

Our free 12-step program Parental Alienation Anonymous. My email's there familydisappearedatgmailcom. Let let us know what you think, what else you need from the show. Uh, any kind of feedback is welcome, good or bad. And uh, please remember to share and like on whatever social media this is coming through to you, or an apple, or on youtube or wherever you see it. And uh, yeah, we need you, you need us. We're a community, we're a 501c3 non-profit. If you feel like you have resources to share, please share. In order to keep this programming free, to keep our 12-step meeting free, everything like that. We need support from folks. So give what you can, don't give if you can't. And maybe your giving is just making suggestions, and that's really appreciated too. And thanks for coming out today. And let's jump on into the show.

Speaker 2:

I remember having a really hard conversation with my oldest daughter. She was in college and I was really acrimonious at the time and I was really dysregulated. I was having a lot, a lot of physical pain. I wasn't sure what was going on with my body and I just was so tired of this whole system. And I remember having a conversation with her and I told her she was a narcissist and that she she was just uh, I can't don't remember what other words I said, but I called her a narcissist and I don't believe that. I don't even know really who she is as an adult because we haven't had contact in nine years. But when I said that to her she was just a little girl trying to survive the experience, trying to figure out how to get through the day, and it had to be so confusing to her.

Speaker 2:

But in my experience and because I was trauma bonded to her mother, I was just looking for her to, to love me, to give me something. Maybe I was looking for some supply from my daughter, maybe I was looking for that deep kind of love and affection and and that stuff that I used to get from my ex. And I turned to my daughter and, uh, it wasn't, it was hurtful and that wasn't her job to love me through that place. It was my job as a parent to resource myself, to do my work, to go get professional help, to join a support group, to show up, and I'm just saying, I'm sharing and saying this stuff out loud to you because I'm learning more about myself as I do these interviews and see places that I put my kids in positions that they didn't need to be.

Speaker 2:

So if you're in a position where you're struggling with your kids and you think they're narcissistic and you're using those words, just take a moment to listen to these shows with Randy, listen to some of the other shows and maybe put yourself in their place and just realize they're just trying to survive and if they lash out against the other parent, they're going to get cut off emotionally and that's going to feel like they're going to die and the anxiety and the fear and the results from that could be devastating to a young kid. So I regret. I regret some of my behavior and I want to acknowledge that it is the best that I could do at the time and if you feel like you're in a similar situation, it's the best you can do at the time. Man, just love yourself where you are and I have love for you in that situation because it's so complex and so complicated and there's resources and conversations and podcasts and different people to talk about and communities that can support you. So go out and embrace those things, and embrace that we're imperfect too, you, I and everyone else involved. And uh, with that, let's jump into an even more intense conversation.

Speaker 2:

Please take breaks, breathe, take care of yourself, you know. Have a conversation with a friend after this. Come by a meeting, you know what I mean. Get some resources and, uh, that's enough out of me, let's let's hear what else randy has to say on the subject. After three relationships, people come to you and it usually takes about a year working with someone that's really qualified around narcissistic abuse. What does this say for, like our kids? Is there an early intervention? Do they need to go through their own cycle? Is it going to take them a year of working with the therapist when they're in their 30s or 40s? After three relationships, like what, how does that look like with younger folks, and where's there some kind of recovery or some kind of relief or some kind of letting go of some of these actions?

Speaker 1:

The only way for a child who's been the victim of parental alienation to recover is reunification therapy. If they don't get reunification therapy, they may develop, they may get the relationship back with the alienated parent, but they will suffer for the rest of their life from what has been done to them. Any child who has been abused by a narcissistic parent, whether they're in an intact family or an alienated family, is going to suffer for the rest of their life the repercussions of what has happened to them. And I speak from personal experience and professional experience. Okay, because I had a narcissistic mother and it has taken me well, I've worked a lot on the emotional, the mental health, the obvious aspects of having had a narcissistic parent. My nervous system, on the other hand, has suffered tremendously.

Speaker 1:

You know the book Body Keeps the Score. Okay, my body. I have physical issues that I still, in my sixth decade of life, still carry with me, that I'm still working through. So this embeds very, very deeply in the child, in every aspect of the child emotionally, mentally, psychologically, physically, nervous, system-wise. For that child to fully function in life, to be okay and to be able to function as I do, they would need reunification therapy, which means they need reprogramming, deprogramming and reprogramming. It's very important. Their brain will not do this themselves, because once you've been brainwashed, once you've been psychologically conditioned this way, it doesn't dissipate, it's not going to go away.

Speaker 2:

And when you say you're reunification therapy and deprogrammed, reprogrammed, this is like a huge plethora of different therapists in different places you can go. Is this just like? Hey, there's just one forum.

Speaker 1:

No, it's. You find yourself a really good reunification therapist. There are some very, very good ones that have been doing this work for years and it's a very intensive process where I think they work with the therapist for like five days and they go through deprogramming and reprogramming these kids.

Speaker 2:

And this sounds like for younger kids that are still under 18 when they go through reunification. Like what is an adult? An adult's working with someone like you that's actually an expert that's doing the reprogram, just to a more developed brain.

Speaker 1:

Right. I mean, if they come to me, then I'm going to work with them and it's probably I'm not a reunification therapist and I don't have the process that a you know, a trained psychologist would have to of reunification therapy. It's a very specific process which I am not skilled in, but as an adult, you know they would. Yes, somebody would work with me and we would gradually work this stuff out. It's very difficult. It's very difficult because there's a lot of grieving involved.

Speaker 2:

That sounds incredibly painful and incredibly difficult. And I see generational trauma where you're saying like the cycle just kind of keeps on continuing and no one's done their work so people just keep hurting each other and just using these strategies over and over again. It's uh, it's that's devastating, at least in in in my maternal and paternal line. And yeah, and I also wanted to touch on on one other little thing that we we spoke about, about like how people from the outside are perceiving the trauma bond that we're going through.

Speaker 2:

And I know for me, my family was watching my relationship and it was very insular, like everyone was kind of like locked out and the door was closed and they would see this really insular relationship and their access got less and less. And for me on the inside it looked like this was love, this was deep love, this was an incredible family. And on the outside, the perception of people like watching this, like what do you hear from other family members, other folks, when they're watching this from the outside, like their experience, and most of these people that are on the outside watching it, I'm thinking their relationships are completely deteriorating with the person that they love. That's going through. This correct. That's going through this correct.

Speaker 1:

It's really hard. You know. I have people come to me and say you know we're going to schedule an intervention and you know we're going to corner them and you know, can you talk to this person and straighten them out and tell them what's going on? The thing is, the person who's you know trauma bonded this way, is not going to hear from anybody else. Okay, this is a process that has to come from within, but the most important thing that a family member or a loved one can do is just continue to be there and to offer support and say, no matter what happens, no matter when it is, when you're ready, I'm here Because if you point it out, you will be rejected, because the person who has the trauma bond.

Speaker 1:

This is survival. You are holding on with a death grip to this relationship and you literally feel like if this relationship is not in your life, you will die. It's complete survival. You're holding on with everything you have, believing that you will not survive without this relationship. So no one's going to talk you out of that just waiting for my ex to reach out to me.

Speaker 2:

You know what I mean. I was so desperate just to get anything I wanted back so badly and my family was like, hey, you know, they would say stuff to me about the relationship and I would definitely get really irritated and upset and then I would judge them and their relationship. So everything that you're saying is really really useful, especially for people that are in this or in the early stages, that there is help that the stuff that you're feeling is you're not crazy and wanting that relationship that's destructive is what you're programmed to do and it's okay. Yeah, and I just want to just expand this trauma bonding just for other people out there that have other issues in their life in the form of parental alienation. Where there's a grand grandparent, where there's a new spouse or a new player, a new stakeholder that kind of like shows up.

Speaker 2:

That's really attached to the narcissist. You know a surrogate narcissist, I don't know what word you would use, but can you just talk about how this can um be transferred to all different peoples in the narcissist's life? And they just keep bringing in different. I think people call them flying monkeys or people have different words or terminology for them. Can you just talk to that a little bit so people can understand? There's so many different players that can come in as you're going out or as things are falling apart or whatever.

Speaker 1:

And there will be other players that come in, because the narcissist must have their team and they have to have their. Well, flying monkeys is actually the exact expression, the right words for it. These are people that are recruited to do the bidding of the narcissist because narcissists want to be able to keep their hands clean. They don't want anybody to say you did that. So what they do is they use other people to do their bidding, and that's what the purpose of the flying monkey is. So they get vulnerable people who, for whatever reason, are highly empathetic or whatever, and they sell them the same story that they sold in the beginning of this relationship when they were love bombing. They're the victim. This person has treated them so horribly. The children are being abused. You know, this other parent is I mean, I've actually had flying monkeys heard of them do some very vicious things because they are going after this abusive parent, or what they think is the abusive parent. They are fully bought into the narcissist narrative.

Speaker 1:

But they must have a team of people and in marriage, actually, when there's a narcissistic spouse, the other parent is often playing the role of an enabler. They're allowing this to go on until they are. And you know, for those who get out of these relationships, I always say you know, you just should be so proud of yourself for getting away from this person, because there are many relationships with narcissists where the where the spouse stays till the very the bitter end and they sacrifice their entire life, they give their soul. You know, and this happened in my own, my parents' marriage, as a matter of fact, I mean 76 years. My father gave his soul for my mother and she never said a kind word to him, you know, and he thought she was an angel. It's just, it's it's. It's bizarre, it's absolutely bizarre how this works.

Speaker 2:

But they must have a team of people to do their bidding and I just want to ask you this and share a little story with you. And this has been my experience with flying monkeys and, again, if you're new to the show, you know the flying monkeys, just whoever the narcissist you know adds to their team or brings into their circle. So there were certain people that were super intense and a lot of energy coming at me and a lot of negativity. And you know, going through the 12 steps which, again, if you're new to the community, we have a free 12 step program parental alienation, anonymous. And step nine is Going through the 12 steps which, again, if you're new to the community, we have a free 12 step program Parental Alienation, Anonymous. And step nine is actually making amends.

Speaker 2:

So through my step nine process, I went to a couple of these people that were super intensely mean to me in the process and I acknowledged my behavior, some of my character defects and how I'd escalated things at a certain time and everything folded into the background with these flying monkeys and they were no longer flying monkeys, they were just another human being having a human experience and I have relationships with those people today. They used to be these people that are putting intense pressure on me, but they were just a widget. They were no different of a widget than I was, and once we connected human to human, all that story faded into the background. Do you see this often when people connect with their ex flying monkey or this person that was just giving them so much grief?

Speaker 1:

You know, I don't know how you were able to do that, because, no, I don't see it that often. Often, you know, it's very difficult for these people to see the truth about what's happening, because narcissists are so brilliant in their ability to manipulate. But you know, when you say you made amends, what do you mean? Like you were, what were you? What were you making amends for? What was the behavior that you thought you did, that you were wrong?

Speaker 2:

You know and I also I also want to say this that the people that I reconnected with their relationships had fractured with the narcissist.

Speaker 2:

When I did make my amends they weren't in deep entrenched relationship with them right when I tried to connect with them. When they're deep entrenched relationship there was no way to go. But when the relationship had fractured, then I would own my behavior. Maybe I'd acted out or or yelled or, you know, I'd been upset and some of my owning of my behaviors might not have been incredibly healthy but it was kind of my bridge to working on my own internal ecosystem and acknowledging places that I hadn't shown up but fully integrated and I'd been dysregulated or something like that. And in acknowledging my effect on them they were able to acknowledge their part and stuff and stuff kind of like faded into the background or they didn't acknowledge their stuff, but my hate or my agony, my fear, my frustration towards them dissipated once I was able to own my space. I guess they didn't hate me afterwards like they reflected back that I was. I was a good human being doing decent things, you know.

Speaker 1:

Right, so yeah, and I don't know, I haven't really heard. So this is my feeling on this. Okay, the behaviors that someone exhibits when they've been alienated or they're in an abusive relationship with a narcissist, or they've trauma bonded or whatever it is, which is, you know, a really dysfunctional kind of relationship, it is not normal. So to me, the behaviors that are exhibited are reactive in nature. They're not who you really are. You know, you're not an angry person per se, but you get reactive when your buttons are pushed, when you're being backed into a corner. Ok, so I guess it's really OK to say you know, I was backed into a corner and I reacted that way. I just I think that it's important to not take too much responsibility or really feel bad for the things that you say or do under this that kind of duress, because it's not really who you are, it's based on what is being done to you, because it's not really who you are, it's based on what is being done to you. And I say this because when people are in these relationships, even in family situations, there's a lot of guilt that's produced by this reactive nature. Okay, by this you're pushed and pushed. So what a narcissist will do, for instance, is they'll sit there with a smile or very calm while they're pushing your hot buttons and they're just going for it and going for it, and going for it till you blow. And then you may say things that are so out of character for you. It's not who you are, it's what's being done to you. And then they say look at me, I'm perfectly calm, you're the crazy one. So if these kinds of behaviors produce guilt in you, I think that's important to work through and to get rid of the guilt around those behaviors, because it's not who you are, it's what's been done to you. And I can tell you that this kind of abuse will make you go crazy. I mean, it puts people in institutions, you lose your marbles, but it's not because there's anything wrong with you, it's because the predator knows exactly how to do that to you. So if that worked for you, I think that that's great.

Speaker 1:

What a big part of healing from any of this kind of abuse. And this is the hardest thing. But it's what I teach people to do, and it is to internally validate yourself. So, no matter what is coming at you, you're not going to be bothered by it. It takes a lot of work to do it, but it's one of the most important skills that I teach people, because if you come from a family like this or you have an ex-spouse or whatever the situation is, this is not a situation that's ever going to end until people die or you die, I mean really that's when it.

Speaker 1:

That's kind of when it ends, and until then you have to navigate this process, but you have to be super resilient and it's something I personally had to learn. So it doesn't matter what anybody says to me. If I know it's not true, I'm not going to believe it. I may have to go, you know, stand in front of the mirror and have a discussion with myself and work through that first and say, okay, they said this, you said you know, this is not you know. And then get myself to a place where I internally validate. But it's the most crucial skill in any healing from this that one must learn is it doesn't matter what people are saying about you, as long as you know you're okay.

Speaker 2:

Right. So what I'm hearing you saying, it's really about working on the internal mechanism, not waiting for the narcissist to acknowledge anything, to ever change, or anything like that. You're going to get this. This empowerment is only going to come from yourself and from your insights, from the resources that you build, the community that you build, and that's where the change is going to start to happen.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely so it's important that you have tools in your tool chest, you know. So when I'm working with somebody, that's what I'm doing. I'm helping them build their tool chest, because it's not like these things are ever going to stop happening to them. It's knowing what to do when they do happen. And so once somebody builds their tool chest, they're good to go. They're resilient.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and the building of the tool chest. Like. It sounds like once you build the tool chest you're resilient. But in my experience, like the tools you need change as you progress and you age and you start to see different layers of yourself and other people. So you're continuously working on this tool chest. It's not like, hey, I arrived somewhere, I'm good to go, let me. Let me stick my head back in the sand.

Speaker 1:

Exactly. I mean, and that's, you know, that's just the evolution of our being, of our soul, as we age and we change and everything like that. We're always evolving, absolutely. But as far as dealing with abuse and parental alienation, you've gotta be so solid within yourself. And I work with people until until and what often will happen is somebody will be good and then a life situation will come up and they'll pop back in and they'll say you know, this happened and I got kind of jarred and I'm sort of, you know, confused again and everything. And then I just remind them about the tools that are in their tool chest and they grab them. They go yeah, OK, I know how to do this, because they're there, they're there, they're there forever.

Speaker 2:

And what a fascinating interview. And you bring so much stuff up and then I try to track most of it and I get some of it. So I'm hoping, if you're listening out there and there's certain aspects that we're missing or not complete in a conversation on comment on any of the social media channels, send me an email directly and we'll make sure to bring Randy back and continue the conversation on this stuff. And I'm just going to end with this question for you, like, if we're watching our children, other loved ones that are in these trauma bonds with a parent or grandparent, step-parent, whatever it is like, the only thing that I heard you say is we just keep loving them, we keep meeting them, we keep being available. Is there anything else you would say? These are the three things that I'd suggest that you, you do.

Speaker 1:

So if you have a child who is not aged out of the legal system, fight like hell, okay. Get with somebody who knows how to do this, who's experienced with this, and get yourself the right lawyer. Okay, I can't stress this enough your lawyer will make or break this situation. So if you have a child who has not aged out of the system and you still have the legal system to help you because you have a minor child, do not stop fighting, okay, and don't listen to what that child says, because the a child who's even 16 years old, 15, 16, teenager where they really think they know everything and they can sort of make up their mind with how they want to deal with things. They are not fully matured, so the brain doesn't really fully mature until usually with girls it's around 23, boys maybe 25. And that's when they're able to predict the outcome of their actions and their choices. Prior to that cannot. So you don't want to let a child make decisions that they're going to regret later on. And I have a colleague, susan Schoffer, who works in this field and she's interviewed hundreds of adult survivors of parental alienation. And the two things that they say is I always loved that parent, no matter what I was saying. I was kicking, spitting, hitting, saying horrible things to them. I always loved that parent. And what would you tell that parent? Never stop fighting for me. Never stop fighting for me. Okay, so there's a part of them. They want that love and they want that relationship. You can't leave this up to them to make these decisions. So there are lawyers that do this work, that know how to fight this battle, and it's the only thing you can do, because judges don't know how to analyze this, the psychological aspects of this. They're looking at everything in terms of law and in terms of equity. So they want to keep that family, they want to make sure that child has a mother and a father and they're going to do whatever they can do to try to keep that intact. But they're not going to look at the psychological aspects and they're not going to see the fact oh well, that child doesn't talk to that parent. Something's wrong. You know what's wrong? I better look at this. Maybe the other parent? They don't do this. They're looking at the law. So you must have a lawyer who knows how to educate the judge, and this is not something if you're in a situation like this. Find an expert who can help you get to the right lawyer. You want to get this right because that's going to make or break this case and this child. And just because a person is in family law or you know they do divorces or they do custody, it doesn't mean they understand this or know how to present this in court for you. You need them, okay. So, super important.

Speaker 1:

Now, once your child is aged out of the system, once you have adult children, you're dealing with grandparents or whatever. The only thing I would say is to always be present as much as you possibly can. Often they'll they'll block you or whatever. If you haven't been blocked, then you have a little bit of leverage, but you can always send messages or just keep the lines of communication.

Speaker 1:

I think the most important message that you can have out there is I will always be there for you, I love you, but you don't want to lay a whole lot of heavy. I love you, I miss you, because the child's dealing with tremendous guilt. A lot of what's pushing them away from you is the guilt that they're dealing with for not being able to love you. So you want to lighten it up so that child doesn't feel threatened by this contact or whatever you're having with them. You don't want them to feel like they have to make a decision or like they're doing something wrong. But you always say I love you and, no matter what, I will always be there for you. And then do that Be there, because you don't know what's going to happen and it can happen at any day, anytime.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic stuff. Thank you so much for coming out and continuing the conversation with us, and all Randy's information is going to be in the show notes so you can get hold of her. You have a bunch of podcasts over the years. You have a bunch of other information available on your website. We'll make sure that's all available for all you out there in the show notes. And, randy, thank you so much for the work that you're doing, for being on the front lines, for sharing this vital information with us. It's much needed.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, lawrence. Thank you for having me back. It's always wonderful to be here with you and to talk to you, and I'll send you some resources my website, randyfinecom. There are hundreds of articles on there, and I write articles all the time, and so, and if there's something you want me to write about, let me know and I'll be happy to write about it. Okay, and focus on it. So it's really been wonderful to be with you, thank you.

Speaker 2:

That's awesome. Thank you, too. Holy Batman Wow. Randy gets a Batman Wow and then a wow, wow and a wow and Jesus, that was a lot. And uh, I learned a lot. And uh, as I said before, just processing my own emotions as we're having these conversations and seeing some of my behaviors from the past and uh, you know we spoke about making amends through the 12 step lens and uh, it has been one of the most cathartic things that I've done, even to people that have created harm in my life, and it was never about them or forgiving them or anything like that. It was about forgiving myself and understanding myself, and in making those men's, I built bridges back to myself, so I feel more grounded and more regulated, and I didn't get to say that in the show, so I just wanted to say how important that has been in my process and different people have different perspectives on that and that's all welcome. I'm just sharing my experience and again, thank you so much to Randy and to all the other folks on the front lines doing this wonderful work, and thanks for coming out to listen.

Speaker 2:

Check out the resources in the show notes. We are a 501c3 nonprofit. We need your help to continue to bring all these services for free and if you have the resources, please contribute. Help to continue to bring all these services for free and if you have the resources, please contribute. And if you don't, please keep coming back out and sharing other resources with us. Your comments, your time, your sharing. You know, joining the community that's just as important as a financial resource.

Speaker 2:

And I'm tired. I'm going to go have some breakfast because it's the morning If you listen to this, right after the holidays happy holidays. Uh, I hope you were able to navigate them the best that you could this year. And uh, there's a bunch of great other episodes with randy if you haven't listened to those and with some other experts. And uh, in case no one's told you yet, today I love you and uh, in loving you, I get to love me.

Speaker 2:

You know what I mean. It's a circular channel for me and I'm so grateful. Grateful for you. I'm grateful for myself, I'm grateful for this journey. That sounds counterintuitive, but this journey has given me the opportunity to be the best parent that I ever could be, the best man that I ever could be, and and gives my kids the best opportunity to have a light to lean into if they ever choose to, ever want to or need to, and with that, have a beautiful day. Thanks for coming to play today and I hope to see you around the neighborhood soon. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then,