Family Disappeared
Have you lost contact with your child? What about your parent, or grandparent, sibling, or any other family member? You might be experiencing estrangement, alienation, or erasure. All of these terms speak to the trauma and dysfunction that so many families face.
A family is a complex living and breathing system. Each member plays a role in the family dynamic. When families carry generational trauma and/or experience new trauma, challenges, or dysfunction, this can result in a break in the family system.
These reaction strategies are habitual and very often interwoven into every aspect of how our family interacts.
Hi! I´m Lawrence Joss and I’ve learned that I need to cultivate a spiritual, emotional, and physical relationship with myself in order to have healthy relationships with others and everything in my life. It is my mission to help you create and nurture that relationship with yourself first and provide you with tools that might help you heal and strengthen family relationships.
This podcast is an opportunity to explore our healing journey together through the complexities of our families.
Welcome to the FAMILY DISAPPEARED podcast.
For more information, visit:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com
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Family Disappeared
Degrees of Destruction: Mild, Moderate, and Severe Parental Alienation Part 1: Episode 81
In this episode of the Family Disappeared podcast, host Lawrence Joss speaks with Dr. Alan Blotcky, a clinical and forensic psychologist specializing in parental alienation. They explore the complexities of parental alienation, including its definitions, behavioral strategies, and varying degrees of severity. Dr. Blotcky emphasizes the importance of effective legal representation and the need for both parents to engage in therapy for successful reunification. The conversation also addresses common misconceptions about parental alienation and the challenges faced in the court system.
Key Takeaways
- Parental alienation can be mild, moderate, or severe.
- Effective legal representation is crucial in parental alienation cases.
- Judges often order reunification therapy without addressing the alienating parent's behavior.
- Alienating parents may not realize the harm they cause to their children.
- The treatment for parental alienation varies based on severity.
- Coordination among all parties involved in a case is essential for success.
- Misconceptions about parental alienation can hinder progress in cases.
- More information in court does not always lead to better outcomes.
- Therapists play a critical role in addressing parental alienation.
- Support from the community is vital for those affected by parental alienation.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Parental Alienation
09:02 Understanding Parental Alienation
18:08 The Role of Attorneys in Parental Alienation Cases
23:51 Misconceptions About Parental Alienation
Dr Alan Blotcky - https://www.alanblotckyphd.com/
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The treatment depends on what the severity is. Mild parental alienation can sometimes be reversed. If you have a judge who's forceful. If you have a mental health professional involved who's forceful, they can give some pretty clear directions and things can get better fast. Once you hit moderate and severe alienation, the treatment protocols are very different.
Speaker 2:There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast.
Speaker 3:Hi, my name is Lawrence Joss and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. Hi, my name is Lawrence Joss and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. Today we have a really cool character on the show, dr Alan Blotke, and we discuss so many cool things. We discuss reunification, we discuss what you have to have your attorney do when you pick out an attorney. We go down different avenues of what parental alienation is Severe cases, moderate cases, mild cases, super fun. Anyway, I was super excited and really enjoyed Alan, and really excited for you all to listen.
Speaker 3:If you're new to the community, welcome to the community. We have some wonderful, wonderful resources for you. We have a free 12-step support group. We have 16, 17 meetings online. That information will be in the show notes. Dr Allen's information will be in the show notes, you know. Reach out to him with any other questions. We're also a 501c3 nonprofit. We'd love your support. If that feels appropriate to you the link is in the show notes as well to make a donation and I'm super excited to get into the show. So let's just jump right on in.
Speaker 3:You know, when I was in the early stages of parental alienation, I couldn't believe this was happening to me. I couldn't believe that the person that I loved more than anything in the world was doing these different things. You know, it was debilitating, destabilizing, confusing, and I thought the answer was to get gooder, if I could just get good or if I could just get better, than if I could just do it right, just paint the wall the right color, then everything would be okay. You know, and in doing that, when certain behaviors would come up, I would just pass over the behaviors. I would just think that there's no way this person that I love so much could be doing this to me. And this is not intentional, this is nothing. This is our own trauma, and I would never really push into some of the things that were happening. And I didn't take certain legal actions and do certain things. And in me trying to be the nice guy and taking the high road, I helped perpetuate the system of alienation.
Speaker 3:And I've said this before and I'll say this again, and it's not a matter of attacking another person, it's not a matter of anything. It's about me advocating for my own rights and my own parenting time. It's about me advocating for myself. And in all the confusion and the fear and stuff like that, I lost my way and I mentioned the story because we're going to talk more about this in different kinds of context in the interview, so let's jump right on in. So today we have Dr Alan Blotke on the show and I'm going to give Dr Blotke an opportunity just to introduce himself to everyone in the community. So, alan, please go ahead.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate the invitation and I'm excited to be here. I'm always excited to talk about the topics that we're going to get into. I am a clinical and forensic psychologist in Birmingham, alabama, I would say. For the past 15 years or so I've been focused on unhealthy family dynamics during separations, divorces and post-divorces, and so parental alienation and false allegations of abuse have been sort of at the forefront of what I've been doing for the past 15 years. I spend a lot of time with parents. I spend a lot of time in the courtroom going into cases, presenting cases, being an expert in parental alienation cases. I've published, I guess, about 30 articles. I'm writing a couple of books. I'm on the board of directors of the Parental Alienation Study Group. I am the co-editor of Parental Alienation International, so I'm pretty embedded in the parental alienation field.
Speaker 3:Thank you for that, Alan, and that is a lot of work and a lot of service to the community. So thank you so much for everything that you've been doing. And you know it has to take a toll being in the trenches for so many years. Like, do you like physically, like just get tired and want to just say, hey, I've had enough of this or this is just what you do.
Speaker 1:No, I get burnt out. There are times when I can rejuvenate pretty quickly, and then there are other times I really can't, and so I have to manage that as best I can. It really is a very taxing field because it's so contentious and adversarial and difficult.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've heard that from several professionals about the burnout and the intensity and sometimes the energy that's coming at you when you're just trying to provide some information. Sounds like a lot. I don't think I could actually do that. But with that little aside, let me jump into just some basic questions here, just so the audience can get your take on a couple of different things. And I'm just going to start with a really simple question how do you define parental alienation?
Speaker 1:What does that look like from your viewpoint? A child against the other parent for no legitimate reason other than the alienating parent's own fear or vindictiveness or whatever it is? And so we know that that's sort of the standard definition, and we know that alienating parents engage in what has been described as 17 different behavioral strategies. We know those. We also know that alienated children present with certain characteristics that we use in the diagnosis of it. We know that parental alienation can be mild or moderate or severe, depending on the extent of the resistance or refusal to have a relationship with the targeted parent. So that's a thumbnail sketch of what parental alienation is.
Speaker 3:Thank you for that, alan, and you covered a lot of information in that very short answer. And for people out in the community that aren't familiar of like the seven behavioral strategies and then this mild, moderate and extreme, could you just give a quick again just a quick snippet of what the 17 characteristics are we're not really going to dig into it because we're going to jump into other stuff in the show and if you could also just give the difference between the mild, moderate and extreme, just so we can set that baseline?
Speaker 1:Well, the 17 things that I mentioned are the 17 alienating behaviors that an alienating parent will engage in Everything from bad-mouthing the other parent to limiting parenting time, to limiting or stopping communication, to describing the other parent as dangerous, as having the child refer to the other parent by his or her first name, as opposed to mom or dad.
Speaker 1:There are a whole range of behaviors that we know that alienating parents engage in, to the mild, moderate, severe. So mild alienation is defined this way A child really doesn't want to go visit the other parent but agrees to do so, and when the child gets with that parent, everything is cool, everything is fine, so that the resistance is very mild, very slight, mild, very slight, and that level of alienation usually is pretty easy to deal with. Moderate alienation is a totally different animal. Moderate alienation is where the child does not want to go see the rejected parent. But if you force that child to go, the child will go. But when that child is with the rejected parent, that child is argumentative, accusatory, sullen, distant, angry, difficult. Severe alienation is where the child stops having any relationship with the rejected parent. There's no communication, there are no visits of any kind, and so it's what I call being cut off from that parent. So those are the three different levels of severity of parental alienation that we talk about.
Speaker 3:A follow-up question on that. So we have these three different levels of severity and do kids cycle between the different levels or, once they get up to one level, do they get stuck Like? What does that look like?
Speaker 1:I would say somebody can go from mild to severe overnight. I'm not saying that's common, but it can happen. So they can switch from mild to moderate to severe pretty quickly. That's a good question. If somebody is severe, will they cycle back to moderate? No, not usually they don't cycle back and of course these cases are easier to intervene when they're mild and harder to intervene with once they get to be severe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Once a kid gets really stuck and cut off and locked up in that position, to come back is almost impossible developmentally for them, I'm guessing.
Speaker 1:I don't know about developmentally, but it certainly requires all the different practitioners who are involved in a case to be on the same page, and that doesn't happen very often. In other words, we know what the treatment is for these various cases, but to get everybody who's involved in a case to agree to it is a different story. You have attorneys who have their own vested interest, of course. You have parents who have carved out their own position. You have an alienated child. You may have a guardian ad litem who's the attorney for the child, who has his or her position. You may have a mediator who has a certain position. You may have one, two, three, four different therapists, each of whom may have a different position. So in order to coordinate and to get everybody on the same page is one hell of a task.
Speaker 3:Yeah, with all those different personalities, with money in the mix, with everyone's agenda and mood for the day. Yeah, that sounds.
Speaker 1:And everybody wants to win. The problem is what winning looks like right looks like right. Winning should be what's in the child's best interest, not where you can crow and say we kicked the other side. Aren't you proud of me?
Speaker 3:Oh God, that is just terrible, that that is part of the reality of what we're all dealing with with the court system and with individuals in general. And just to touch on one other thing you said there, before I jump into the rest of the questions you said we know what. Jump into the rest of the questions. You said we know what the treatment is Like in your perspective. What is that treatment?
Speaker 1:The treatment depends on what the severity is. Mild parental alienation can sometimes be reversed. If you have a judge who's forceful, if you have a mental health professional involved who's forceful, they can give some pretty clear directions and things can get better fast. Once you hit moderate and severe alienation, the treatment protocols are very different. So for moderate alienation, here's the basic treatment protocol. The alienating parent has to have individual therapy with the goal of stopping the alienating behavior. At the same time, the alienated child and the rejected parent have what we call reunification therapy, where they work on their relationship, try to reconnect, repair, restore. Both of those components have to happen at the same time.
Speaker 1:Okay, and we'll talk more about that, I'm sure, as we get into this. But let me describe what the treatment protocol is for severe alienation. Severe alienation, where the child is cut off from the parent, usually requires a change of custody in the child, removing the child from the alienating parent, placing that child with the rejected parent. That child should not have any contact with the alienating parent for at least 90 days and then the same protocol exists the alienating parent gets individual therapy, the alienated child and the rejected parent have reunification therapy and then we go from there.
Speaker 3:Okay, and I'm going to stay with this line of conversation. I know it was set up for later in the interview, but we're just going to do it now. And with the moderate intervention, you're saying that the alienating parent needs to be in therapy and then the child and the targeted parent are in reunification therapy and I don't see the alienating parent very often being willing to do therapy. And if they don't do therapy I presume it's going to fail.
Speaker 1:Well, exactly, it is going to fail. Here's my gripe Judges order reunification therapy like it's water. What they don't order is the alienating parent to get therapy. If they were to do that and that alienating parent says, no, thank you, I'm not doing it, then they're noncompliance and perhaps that can change the leverage in the case. But if a judge doesn't order an alienating parent to get therapy, they almost never agree to it because they feel like they're in a position of power and that they have the leverage. They don't need therapy, they have it the way they want it. So it's up to the court to order the therapy, both components of the therapy.
Speaker 3:And is this something that you see in the court that judges are actually doing, where they're ordering the parent to go to therapy? So you've got to push for it with your attorney and you've got to be specific to ask for it.
Speaker 1:Exactly. It takes an act of God and it's hard to get everybody on board. Again. Judges will order reunification therapy. Here's what happens. They'll say to the alienated child and the rejected parent you all need reunification therapy, go see therapist X. And they'll go see therapist X for six months and there'll be no progress whatsoever. And then everybody's twiddling their thumbs saying, well, what's happened here? It must be the rejected parent's fault that nothing has been accomplished. No, nothing has been accomplished because the alienating parent is still operative in the background and is still pulling the string.
Speaker 3:Sure, that makes a hundred percent sense and I talked to so many different parents that go to reunification and it's such, it's just. It's just a crappy situation that goes no way, exactly like you're saying. But you're the first person I'm hearing say, hey, the other parent needs to go to reunification to be successful, Otherwise it's almost impossible to be successful.
Speaker 1:The other parent doesn't need to go to reunification therapy. The other parent needs a therapist whose only goal is to get that parent to stop their crap.
Speaker 3:Right, yes, I misspoke. Thank you for that, for clarifying that again. And then on the severe case, you mentioned a 90-day disruption of custody where the kid goes back to the targeted parent to give them an opportunity to rebuild the relationship. Do you ever see that being ordered? It's got to be almost impossible to get ordered as well, correct?
Speaker 1:No, I've gotten that order several times. The 90-day is a sort of 90-day moratorium on any contact between the alienating parent and the alienated child. Once that custody has been changed, more often than not it's permanent. I have had it happen. I have had it happen. I have been able to accomplish that a few times, not often, not always a few times more than two or three, but not nearly as many times as it needs to happen. You know, I have a number of cases right now where a father or a mother has not seen their child in two or three years. Well, really, are we going to argue about whether that's severe alienation? That's just not okay, that's not right. But to get the judge to change custody is not an easy task and I can talk till I'm blue in the face to convince them that it's not traumatic to move the child. It's in the child's best interest to be moved. But some judges just don't have the appetite or the spine for it.
Speaker 3:That makes a lot of sense and thanks for talking to both of those things, and it's a great point of reference for people out in the community to bring up with your attorney, with your therapist, stuff like that, and I will make sure that we put the different topics that we're talking about some links in the show notes for you, and Dr Allen's information will all be in the show notes for you too, if there's any other information you want to follow up on.
Speaker 1:Can I add one quick thing, because you mentioned the word attorney? As I've done these cases over the years, I've come to the conclusion that your attorney is critical. They don't have to be Perry Mason, but they have to be. They have to understand parental alienation and they have to be strong advocates and they have to be open to working with an expert. Those are the three requirements to having a lawyer, and if you have a lawyer who doesn't do those three things, then the challenge of climbing that mountain may be too much.
Speaker 3:Thank you, that's really useful and you also say someone that understands what parental alienation is. And parental alienation is a really tricky term because bringing it up in court at times just creates a lot of discord and different disease and sometimes it's useful. But understanding it doesn't necessarily mean that they have to lead with the word parental alienation. They just need to know how to bring in the different elements correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, every case is different. I think if you have a case where a child has not had any contact with a parent for two or three years, I would not be shy about using the term parental alienation, if the diagnosis fits.
Speaker 3:Got it. That makes a lot of sense. So just moving a little bit here on staying on topic, but moving a little bit In your experience, in your practice and you know court and all the clients that you work with. What are the most common misconceptions about parental alienation that you encounter on a regular basis?
Speaker 1:Misconceptions about it. Well, one misconception is that it doesn't occur. It does occur. It does happen and if you've ever been any kind of mental health clinician who works with these kinds of families, you know that it happens because you've seen it, you've experienced it. So one misconception is that it doesn't happen. It does in fact happen. Estimates are that maybe 25 to 30% of high conflict divorces usually involve some degree of parental alienation. That's a lot of cases. So that's one misconception is it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1:Another misconception is that, like I said, I guess prior to us starting, parents have the idea that if I just throw out every detail in the courtroom to a judge, they will get it. And that's not usually how it works. In my experience, it's up to the attorney and the mental health expert involved to present the big picture of the case and not necessarily include all of the details, because judges' eyes do glaze over, they do tune out and they make horrible decisions sometimes. So more is not necessarily better when it comes to the details of a case. So that's a misconception. Another misconception is that a parent can be an alienating parent but they don't realize they're doing it. I don't believe that. I believe all parents who are alienating parents at some point understand what they're doing, probably why they're doing it and the extent of them doing it. What they don't understand is that it's extremely harmful to their child and that it's a very selfish act by the alienating parent. They're being selfish, they're not helping the child. They've convinced themselves that they're helping the child, but they're not helping the child. So that's another misconception.
Speaker 1:Other misconceptions, I think attorneys sometimes think they can win the case without the use of an expert. It ain't going to happen. It ain't going to happen, and you know why? Because attorneys can't testify but experts can, and experts can help navigate the case, put the case together and present the case in a compelling way in the courtroom. Parental alienation is a difficult construct and a difficult entity in real life because it is what we call counterintuitive. There are certain things about it that are hard to understand because it's really the opposite of the way we tend to think about it, and so that makes it more difficult. It's challenging, it's convoluted, it takes time to figure out. So those are some of the misconceptions.
Speaker 3:Those are all wonderful points you're bringing up and I'm just going to touch on each of them briefly that I heard you say and I think the first one, which is incredibly important, is this idea about being succinct with the testimony and the information you bring into court, like as you get in the motion and you get in the story and you get lost in all these things that are incredibly important to you, which they are important. You need to stick with the facts and present what's actually happening in order to have a better chance with the judge. Is what I'm hearing you say Correct? Wow, what a great first half of the show. I love what Alan is sharing. He's bringing up some little nuances and topics for us to dig deeper in and discuss. Super cool us to dig deeper in and and discuss and, uh, super cool some of the stuff that he's he's leaning into. Like you got to have an expert. Like some of the ideas of the severe and mild and moderate alienation, what they look like. Can kids switch back and forth? Like there's a lot there to think about and digest and I'm gonna have to go back and listen to this one again. So, uh, thanks for coming out to listen to the show.
Speaker 3:Remember this is a bunch of great links and resources in the show notes. Alan's information is down there. The link to the free 12-step Parental Alienation Anonymous support group is down there. The community is wonderful, kind, loving. It's a great place to get support, and support is such a paramount need with people that are struggling with parental alienation. And there's other cool stuff down there too. There's the Family Hope Project, where you can give us a piece of art to add to the project, just to educate people about what's going on. And it's all anonymous. My email is always in the show notes familydisappearedatgmailcom.
Speaker 3:Love to hear from you, suggest other guests or anything like that in between. And you know thanks for coming out to play today and I hope to see you that in between. And, uh, you know thanks for coming out to play today and I hope to see around the neighborhood. And, if no one's told you yet, today I love you. Yeah, man and I, and I hope you love me too. You know what I mean. And it's in that kind of love where we're just, we're just rowing in this boat together. We might be really different kinds of people doing different kinds of things at different kinds of times, but having that kind of like support and that love is super healing, because this is hard to do by yourself. So again, thanks for coming out and see you around the neighborhood soon.
Speaker 2:Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.