Family Disappeared

Degrees of Destruction: Mild, Moderate, and Severe Parental Alienation Part 2: Episode 82

• Lawrence Joss

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In this episode of the Family Disappeared podcast, Lawrence Joss continues the conversation with Dr. Alan Blotcky, focusing on the complexities of parental alienation. They discuss the importance of succinct communication in court, the dynamics of alienation, the role of experts, financial challenges in legal proceedings, and the impact of social media on perceptions of parental alienation. Dr. Blotcky shares success stories from reunification therapy and emphasizes the need for a supportive team to navigate these challenging situations. The conversation concludes with a positive message about the potential for change and healing in the context of parental alienation.

Key Takeaways

  • Advocating for oneself is crucial in parental alienation cases.
  • Succinct communication in court can significantly impact outcomes.
  • Understanding the behaviors and their effects is more important than labels.
  • Success in reunification therapy is possible with the right approach.
  • Financial resources can limit access to expert testimony.
  • Many therapists lack an understanding of parental alienation.
  • Social media can spread misinformation about parental alienation.
  • Judges may resist new information and cling to old biases.
  • Building a supportive team is essential for navigating legal challenges.
  • Parental alienation can be addressed and improved with the right strategies.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Parental Alienation

02:55 Navigating Court and Advocacy

06:10 Understanding Alienation Dynamics

08:49 The Role of Experts in Legal Cases

11:52 Financial Challenges in Legal Proceedings

14:46 Reunification Therapy Success Stories

19:01 The Impact of Social Media on Perceptions

22:11 Shifts in Understanding Parental Alienation

24:52 Closing Thoughts and Positive Messages


Dr Alan Blotcky - https://www.alanblotckyphd.com/

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This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
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Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

Speaker 1:

Parental alienation is a very unhealthy problem. We talk about it a lot. I want to emphasize that it can be fixed. There can be success in working with these people. In their cases it can happen. Believe me, it can happen.

Speaker 2:

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast.

Speaker 3:

Hi, my name is Lawrence Joss and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. Today we have part two with Dr Alan Blotke and whoa good show. If you haven't listened to episode one first or the first half of the show, please go back and listen to that so you have context for the balance of this conversation and really fun conversation. Again, we're talking about a lot of nuances that we haven't necessarily discussed before and Alan has some really positive messages at the end of the podcast that you're going to want to listen to if you're in the middle of this battle. And, yeah, some really cool details about succinct sharing in court, about having an expert if you can have an expert, a couple different ideas if you don't have the resources, on how to get maybe someone to represent that part in your case. And, yeah, super cool conversation. If you're new to the community, welcome to the community. Great resources in the show notes Parental Alienation Anonymous is our free 12-step support group program.

Speaker 3:

Lovely, wonderful, kind community. Come out and check it out, see if it's a fit for you. I've made so many friends and I've built so much community through it. Dr Allen's information will be in the show notes too. There's a bunch of other resources down there and we are a 501c3 nonprofit. So if you have the resources, please help us out to keep bringing all these services to you for free. And it's a lot out of me for today.

Speaker 3:

I'm getting tired of talking, so let's just jump into the show. It's funny, you know, like when you're in parental alienation, like everything feels like it's moving at a warp speed and then it feels like it's not moving at all and I used to get so confused in all those spaces and make not the best decisions. And we talk about that a lot in the show and other shows how really finding yourself and finding your own ground and getting resourced and getting support through a support group through also support groups or any other support group, it doesn't matter is really important. And to advocate for yourself and I would say that I didn't advocate for myself enough when I was going through this I didn't want to create more harm and I thought advocating for what I thought was right as a parent and as a person would create more harm and keep the kids further away. And in trying to do the right thing, or the perceived right thing, I created more distance for everyone and created some harm, and I know that's hard to hear, but this is really a message for people that are struggling or in the beginning, or in the middle, or further along than I am, or whatever it is Like.

Speaker 3:

How do we advocate for ourselves in a healthy and useful way? How do we communicate really, really clearly? So that's the message I want to leave with you as we jump into the show, because we touch on so many of those different points coming up. Those are all wonderful points you're bringing up and I'm just going to touch on each of them briefly that I heard you say and I think the first one, which is incredibly important, is this idea about being succinct with the testimony and the information you bring into court. Like, as you get in the motion and you get in the story and you get lost in all these things that are incredibly important to you which they are important you need to stick with the facts and present what's actually happening in order to have a better chance with the judge. Is what I'm hearing you say correct?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's correct, and I have parents all the time. In fact I had one yesterday. They want me to go in there and say that their ex-spouse is a narcissistic personality, and what I have to explain to them is I'm not disagreeing with you, but that judge it will go in one ear and out the other. If that's our case, If our case is that I was married to a narcissistic personality, and look what's happened. No, you have to describe the behaviors and the impact of those behaviors on the child, of those behaviors on the child, and a judge will see that diagnosis as purely name-calling. And so there are a lot of things I've learned about doing these cases that maybe are counterintuitive themselves, but there are certain things you got to do and certain things you can't hang your hat on.

Speaker 3:

And I love your example because I hear parents over and over again saying narcissistic personality disorder, borderline, all this kind of stuff. And yeah, it's true, but it's irrelevant, no one cares, like what are the facts. If we don't get to the facts and to the impact, you know how many times a day a judge hears the word narcissism or narcissism. Can't imagine.

Speaker 1:

If that's all we're going to do, we're going to lose. We're going to lose, I love that, and it's not because you're wrong, it's just that's not the winning presentation.

Speaker 3:

Right, I love that. It's just such a subtle point, but it's probably the most important thing that I've heard in a little while. And another thing that you said is fascinating which I'm not sure about this that all parents know that parents that are alienating know, like I'm an alienated father and my ex-wife was alienated from her father, so it's transgenerational trauma, it's in her system. This is the behavior that she knows. And now, at her age, like I'm sure she knows, but part of me wants to say no, she can't know because this stuff is just so horrific. You know.

Speaker 1:

Here's why I say what I did, because if I say, you know, maybe there are some times when an alienating parent doesn't know what they're doing, that sort of opens the door to feeling sorry for them or giving them permission that it's okay or we're going to cut them some slack. No, so that's why I take the position that I do, because as soon as we cut them slack, what does that undo? That just enables them, so we can't cut them any slack. Bottom line I don't know. I don't care whether they know what they're doing. It would be nice if they did, it would be nice if they could develop some insight. But either way, I'm not going to get lost in that point. My point is here's what they're doing, here's the effect on the alienated child and on the rejected parent, and that's where we have to stay focused.

Speaker 3:

I love it. And as you're talking about this idea about cutting them slack, that was my story. I continuously cut slack, continuously enabled the alienation. What did that get you? Yeah, it got me stuck. You know what I mean. And it's pulling on the heartstrings, it's pulling on the codependency, it's pulling on all the different things because you don't want to think your ex-partner is capable of this kind of stuff, and then you help perpetuate alienation.

Speaker 1:

And look, I said that to you and we hardly know each other. I wasn't mean, I wasn't giving you crap, because that's the common story that I hear. I hear rejected parents say I can't believe my ex is doing this. We were married for 22 years. I can't believe he or she is doing it. And then the other one I hear is I try to jump through every hoop I could think of to make him or her happy, and we all do that. And what we don't realize until we get to the end is it doesn't work.

Speaker 3:

I love it and I don't feel like you're giving me crap. We're having a wonderful conversation and the stuff that you're talking about for the community out there and people that are in the beginning of the story. Like you know, my story is cutting slack, taking the high road, being the good person and I help perpetuate parental alienation by just not being saying no, this is what's happening. You know, and it's a great lesson for me to share, for Alan to share from you know a clinical perspective that these are the ways to kind of like this is a different kind of intervention is just not cutting slack. So I love that.

Speaker 1:

Well, it is true that the parents that are the object of parental alienation typically don't know what the hell to do. And I understand that, because you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't know. If you take the high road, that ain't going to change your ex's behavior. If you take the low road, it's just going to get nastier and meaner and more vicious. So it's like not knowing what to do is sort of the de facto position.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I see a lot of parents, and part of my story too, is in not knowing what to do. Is deferring your? What to do? Is deferring your agency to everyone else around you and then you don't get to actually direct what's happening in your own case. So being really clear on what you want, what the outcome is, and advocating for yourself, just like in any other situation, is paramount.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, let me just add, this is kind of the ribbon on top of the box, which is this is what I tell people who are involved in moderate to severe alienation you have to go to court. I know that it's a daunting task, I know it's expensive, I know it's time consuming, but absolutely nothing else will change the course of the case unless you go to court. The court has to intervene. Here's the problem with that. These courts are not really equipped to do it. I mean honestly, if you're going to be truthful about it, they're not mental health experts. They don't understand this stuff. So you're in a bind 100%.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, the courts were never set up to handle this kind of stuff. They just go put in that position so you're in a bind. 100%. Yeah, the courts were never set up to handle this kind of stuff. They just go put in that position. So it's definitely a hugely broken system. And then one other thing you mentioned a couple times is this idea about the attorney has to have an expert, which I can hear. That's pretty simple. And what do you suggest to people? Because experts cost a lot of money. Some people have access to resources. If someone has access to resources, simple get an expert. If they don't necessarily have access to resources, is there Kind of like a bootstrap way to get some kind of expert or get some kind of expert testimony in, or just no, it just comes down to dollars.

Speaker 1:

Unfortunately, it comes down to dollars. If you have a, if you're seeing a therapist who really gets it and that therapist might be willing to come to court on your behalf, maybe that's a good substitute. If you can't afford an expert, make sure that at least you have a really good lawyer. But look for other resources of other people who are involved in the case who get it. Now, you don't want to bring somebody in who doesn't get it, because they're just going to make things worse and nine times out of 10, these therapists don't get it. But if you have one who really gets it and they're willing to come to court, then do that.

Speaker 3:

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. And just touching on one last thing you just said there, which is most therapists don't get it Like. Are you seeing, like the word parental alienation or the concepts and ideas about parental alienation spreading in the therapeutical field, where more people have a baseline understanding, or is it just like a really small population of therapists that really are understanding this?

Speaker 1:

Well, I think those of us who are involved, especially those of us who are involved in the parental alienation study group, who publish things, our goal is to spread the word, but I would say very few therapists get it. They just don't have the knowledge base or the experience. Some of them say they understand it when in fact they don't, and then others will say I don't get it at all, but yet they will dive into the case and screw it up even worse. So we're trying to be educational in sort of spreading the word, spreading the knowledge, spreading the treatment strategies. We try to communicate that as best we can. We do trainings, we do podcasts, we do a lot of different things to try to educate, but it's a very slow process.

Speaker 3:

Okay, thank you for that and let's just talk about like money a little bit more. Like everything is expensive. The whole system is generating and using money and there's a lot of people that are in some really challenging situations that can't afford to do stuff Like the money. With the legal professionals and the other stakeholders, do you feel like sometimes they're just driving like the money train and it's not really about the client and about the case? Do you see that kind of stuff happening?

Speaker 1:

Of course. And then I also see parents who will start out the conversation with me and say I've had six attorneys, I've spent X number of thousands of dollars and look what I've gotten for it. So what I would say is, regardless of whether you have money or you don't have money, make really smart, wise decisions about who you hire and who you get on your team, Because there are a lot of attorneys out there who will take these cases but who don't know the first thing about what they're doing, and the end result will be either no progress or a digression in progress. And so, if you know, keep your money in mind and spend it wisely is what I would say and make really smart decisions. Ask a lot of questions before you hire somebody.

Speaker 3:

Yes, and you see, use the word. You use the word digression, and I just want to bring this topic up because I've had this conversation just way too many times to count where people have hired an attorney and they've hired legal people and they've deferred their agency, which means giving away your power to make your own decisions, and then they hire an attorney and they actually make the case worse. They forget documents, they don't understand parental alienation, and I'm guessing you see this all the time.

Speaker 1:

I do, and so, again, my advice is before you hire an attorney, have a conversation with that attorney and ask the following questions. Okay, tell me about what parental alienation is. How many cases of parental alienation have you had? Were you the attorney for the alienating parent or for the rejected parent, and what were the outcomes in those cases and what were your recommendations in those cases? Grill them. Grill them. It's your right, it's your money. Grill them. Spend an hour with them. Ask them 25 different questions about parental alienation to find out their level of real expertise, as opposed to just BS.

Speaker 3:

Love it, love it, and we were talking about reunification therapy earlier on in the podcast and you laid out pretty much what it's going to take to be successful. But, like in your experience, are there some? Maybe you could share a story or two where reunification has been successful, and maybe you could share one in like a moderate and one in a severe case, so people can have a short point of reference of what that might've looked like and what the arc of the success was.

Speaker 1:

It will always be pretty successful if you can just get the treatment matched with the severity. If you, like I said earlier, an alienating parent is never going to agree to individual therapy because they don't think they need it and they think they're in the powerful position with all the leverage and they won't do it. So the judge has to order it. So if that happens, that's a touchdown. Okay, that's at least 50%. Now then that alienating parent has to be matched with a therapist who truly understands parental alienation and who will have the singular goal of stopping the alienation. Then the alienated kid and the rejected parent will have reunification therapist. Again, that reunification therapist has to be somebody who's knowledgeable. So yes, I have had cases where that scenario works, Is it?

Speaker 1:

a linear line Hardly. There's ups and downs, okay, but it can work as long as everybody is on the same page and committed to that treatment protocol I just told you. So, yes, an alienated, an alienating parent can modify their behavior, maybe not totally, but largely. And what I have found and what's reported in the literature is that the alienated child's reunification with the rejected parent is usually quite quick and relatively easy to accomplish. Now, in severe alienation, I have had a number of cases where custody of the child has changed.

Speaker 1:

The worst alienated child I have ever seen this was probably 10 years ago was a teenage boy who was alienated from his mother, severely alienated from his mother. We got the judge to change custody. That boy then began living with the mother. The father was so bad that he was actually prohibited from seeing this child until the child turns 18. The reunification of the child with the mother was pretty tumultuous, I would say probably for three months, and then after that this kid and that mother have been phenomenal, not just good phenomenal. So success does happen, and that's an important point for everybody to hear. Success does happen, but the right treatment has to be matched with the right severity of the alienation, and everybody has to agree to it and make it happen.

Speaker 3:

Right, that's great. I like right severity, right protocol to treat it. And you also said the word linear, like nothing is linear, you know. So nothing is straight, like you get access to your child. It doesn't get better. It doesn't get better automatically. You're going to have some good days, some rough days, some really rough days, some really great days and eventually, hopefully, it comes to like a tapering out point where it stays sooner.

Speaker 1:

Sooner rather than later, I'm telling you and I want to emphasize that, and I've seen dozens of cases sooner rather than later the reunification process works.

Speaker 3:

That's wonderful to hear. And within the reunification process and the whole parental alienation, what do you see the impact of social media with the case or with the kids or with the parents? Do you see a major impact?

Speaker 1:

Well, here's what's happened. There are critics out and there are a group of critics who posit well, who frame their criticism this way they say that parental alienation is a concept that abusive men hide behind in order for them to get custody of their kids, in order to maintain their abusive behavior. Therefore, parental alienation is a false concept entity. And so they have figured out a way to get into the mainstream media and therefore they have found a way to get onto social media. So that is misinformation that is being promulgated on social media and in the mainstream media. So that's my problem with it is that there's false information out there.

Speaker 3:

Right. A lot of false information.

Speaker 1:

Has it ever happened that an abusive man has accused the ex of parental alienation? Yes, it has happened, but that doesn't mean parental alienation doesn't exist. It just means in one or a few cases it has been misdiagnosed and misused.

Speaker 3:

Right, yeah, they're taking some extreme, outlining cases and making that like that's what parental alienation is.

Speaker 1:

And a lot of domestic violence experts have signed on to that view. Yeah, because they feel like that. If we say that men and women, mothers and fathers, can be the perpetrators of parental alienation, that that somehow gets the focus off of women being the victims.

Speaker 3:

Got it.

Speaker 1:

And they can't tolerate that.

Speaker 3:

Yes, no, that's a super complex topic and issue with so many different nuances. So, yeah, no, that is a severe problem and from their perspective, they're also trying to protect a lot of people. So, yeah, super, super complex. So you've had a lot of years in this field. Like, what shifts have you noticed in parental alienation, legally, socially, over the years? Are there any shifts or it's just an uphill battle to educate people?

Speaker 1:

I think there are more people who are involved in the field. I think there are more people who are writing articles, doing podcasts, doing research. You know there have been more than 225 research studies published on parental alienation, but like 40% of those have been since 2016. So it's a relatively young field that's growing exponentially, but it's happening before our eyes, so it is growing and it's an exciting time.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I see a lot more research out there, a lot more books. I actually even see it mentioned in some TV shows and some movies. You see that the words starting to appear or celebrities, or celebrities.

Speaker 1:

You've heard some celebrities talking about parental alienation. It certainly has crept into the consciousness of our culture, of our mainstream. It's just that the misinformation is concerning.

Speaker 3:

And have you seen anything shift like in the legal system, in the family court system? Are you seeing a shift? More education for the judges, for the attorneys, for anything like that going on?

Speaker 1:

It's very slow, very slow going. It just is. I wouldn't say that there's outright resistance. What I have found about the judges in Alabama and it's probably true in every state is that they're old fashioned, they have certain biases that they're not going to let go of and they want to be in complete control. A lot of them don't want some uppity expert telling them what to do, and that's a problem. That's a problem because these are life and death decisions in some respects, and if these judges don't stay abreast of the most recent research or the most clinical knowledge, then what are they doing? How are they serving the people, the kids? So it's really frustrating, and I've gotten really frustrated with it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I can't imagine being in court over and over again and then having some people that are really stuck in a different generation or in a different space. They can't hear stuff they can't take in the legal experts, like you're saying, and other stakeholders. That sounds crazy. Making that, you get burnout or people go through some burnout here and there.

Speaker 1:

It makes so much sense going through all the work, doing it right and then having a judge shoot it down for absolutely no reason other than it's not old-fashioned and doesn't fit the biases. That's insane.

Speaker 3:

It's crazy. Yeah, it's totally crazy-making. So we're getting close to the end of the podcast, alan, Are there any nuances or any subjects or some pieces of this puzzle that you'd like to continue the conversation with for a couple of extra minutes yet that I might have missed?

Speaker 1:

Well, I just want to emphasize and I always try to do this. You know parental alienation is a very unhealthy problem. We talk about it a lot. I want to emphasize that it can be fixed. There can be success in working with these people, in their cases. It can happen, believe me, it can happen. Again, it requires everybody being on the same page, or at least the real power brokers being on the same page. But I want to leave a positive taste in everybody's mouth about it, and I know that's hard to do. If you're in the middle of your own case and things are not going well, it can get better. You've got to have the right team. If you can put together the right team, it gives you a huge advantage.

Speaker 3:

What a beautiful way to wrap up the show and thank you so much for your expertise, for your time, for the service you're doing to the community and coming out to share your your thoughts on the podcast. And, yeah, super, super appreciate you and and I really enjoyed the conversation.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. I appreciate the time and your interest, and let me know what else I can do.

Speaker 3:

Thank you. Wow, great show. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Thank you, alan. Yeah, super cool. I didn't expect it was going to be so cool and so detailed and I really appreciate Dr Alan and thanks for coming out and listening.

Speaker 3:

If you're new to the community, I hope you stick around. Try out some meetings. There's a link in the show notes. We're a 501c3 nonprofit. Please donate if you can, and we have a bunch of other really cool shows coming up. There's a lot, a lot of shows in the can In previous episodes.

Speaker 3:

If you're new to the podcast, please go back and check out different shows, because we've had attorneys, therapists, psychologists, we've had panels of parents. There's so many different flavors and so many different things coming on. If you're just jumping into the newer shows, you really want to check out some of the stuff that we've already done. And thank you for coming out to play today and I hope to see you around the neighborhood.

Speaker 3:

If no one's told you yet today I love you and I had a dear friend, tommy, when I first, when I first got to support group meetings, and he's the one that used to say that to me. He said has no other man told you yet today that they love you, because I'm telling you that I love you and I passed that on. I passed that wisdom on from this wonderful man that I happened to cross paths with and it sounded really silly at first when he said that to me and then I got to feel it and believe it and I needed it. I needed to know that I was cared about and loved, even from a partial stranger. So I love you, enjoy the day and I hope to see you around the neighborhood. Take care.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.