Family Disappeared

Erased, Alienated But Not Disappeared! -Episode 91

• Lawrence Joss

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In this conversation, Lawrence Joss explores the complexities of parental alienation through personal anecdotes and analogies, particularly focusing on the metaphor of a jungle and a lemon tree. He emphasizes the importance of individual growth, setting boundaries, and the role of community in healing family dynamics. Joss shares his journey of understanding and addressing the trauma within his family system, advocating for self-work and service to others as pathways to reclaiming relationships and fostering love.

Key Takeaways

  • Parental alienation can suffocate love within families.
  • Individual change is crucial for systemic healing.
  • Boundaries are essential for healthy family dynamics.
  • Personal growth can lead to better parenting.
  • Community support is vital in overcoming challenges.
  • Understanding trauma helps in addressing family issues.
  • Service to others can provide personal fulfillment.
  • The journey of healing is ongoing and requires effort.
  • Emotional and spiritual work is necessary for change.
  • Love and connection can be reclaimed through consistent effort.

Chapters

00:00 - The Weeds of Parental Alienation

03:01 - Understanding the Jungle of Family Dynamics

06:13 - The Importance of Boundaries

08:53 - Personal Growth and Systemic Change

12:05 - The Lemon Tree Analogy

14:51 - Reclaiming Our Family Systems

18:11 - The Power of Community and Service

If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:

Email-      familydisappeared@gmail.com

Linktree: https://linktr.ee/lawrencejoss

(All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)

Please donate to support PAA programs:

https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=SDLTX8TBSZNXS

This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

Speaker 1:

When you're struggling with your kids and they're shooting back this distorted vision of reality. They're not doing it to you, they're doing it for themselves so they don't die. They're falling into this pattern so they don't get continuously hurt. They don't know what else to do. Their nervous system is so intertwined with the other parent generally, or a grandparent or another family member, that how do they survive? I'm thinking, if you're a young person that was alienated or estranged or still are, and you're a young person that was alienated or estranged or still are and you're listening to this, does this even resonate with you? There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode, we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. Hi, my name is Lawrence Joss and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. This is kind of a unique podcast.

Speaker 1:

I'm in Hawaii, on the big island, doing a podcast from a balcony at the place that I'm staying. It's kind of strange. I'm actually staying in an old Zendo, which is kind of like a little meditation center with a little room next to it and no electricity, no running water, but there's a community next door that I'm using all their facilities and it's part of the story today water. But there's a community next door that I'm using all their facilities and it's part of the story today. Like, how did I get here? What does this have to do with parental alienation? You know, and if you're new to the community, welcome. There's already a lot of great shows that we have taped. So if you're new to the community, there's shows about attorneys, therapists, panels of parents. This one's a little bit different. It's just me talking and sharing some different stories and ideas and thoughts for everyone and maybe even answering some questions from the community. So, whatever you're looking for, if you just popped in, check out different shows so you can get a feeling and a taste for everything that we're offering, and then this should be fun, we'll see what happens and we've got a lot of great resources in the show notes.

Speaker 1:

There's PAA Parental Alienation, anonymous. It is a free 12-step support group. It is a free 12-step support group. We don't have any kind of ownership for it, we just participate. I participate in the community and it's a wonderful, loving, kind community. It's 12-step based and it's really about doing your own spiritual and emotional work and building community.

Speaker 1:

And if you're struggling and you don't have people to talk to and you don't know what to do and you're confused and you want resources, I go to meetings. I meet new people all over the world and all over the country and I start to learn what they're doing, and sometimes I learn what they're doing. That's really good, and sometimes we learn from each other about what not to do. So I highly suggest that. There's also the Family Hope Project, which is an art project that we're doing to tell people our stories through art, what we're struggling with, and to advocate for change. And there's a bunch of other great resources in the show notes.

Speaker 1:

Please remember to like comment. We want to know what you think. Does the show feel good? You want more of this? Do you prefer just professionals or panels? Or maybe you just want to say, hey, good job or, hey, not such a good job. You know, all that stuff is welcome and you can always email me and the team at familydisappeared at gmailcom, and we are a 501c3 nonprofit and we need your support to keep delivering everything that we're delivering for free, and there's some wonderful people that do support the community to make this accessible to everyone, you know. And if you don't have resources, maybe you can just volunteer your time, like it doesn't necessarily need to be a financial exchange. So we welcome you to donate if you have the resources and we welcome you to become a monthly donor, which would be super helpful, and if you got a lot of resources, donate a bunch. If you have, again, no resources, volunteer, even show up in me and just to meet the community. Okay, I'm gonna jump into a quick story here and then we're gonna jump into the show.

Speaker 1:

When I first got separated and this dynamic started to shift with my kids specifically my oldest daughter I didn't know what was going on. I really thought that I could outgrow this and my kids would outgrow this, and I never heard of parental alienation and if you listen to some old shows, we discuss that all the time and I had no point of reference. I just thought if I'd be a good father and do the right thing, then the next right thing will happen, and unfortunately it doesn't work that way, at least it hasn't for me in parental alienation. Just doing the right thing doesn't help support change in the family system and I learned, through maybe making not the best decisions but thinking I was doing the right thing, that that wasn't useful. At times like being really grounded, having boundaries, advocating for myself, saying no to my partner, ex-partner times and stuff like that would have been much more useful. I would have been a more useful parent and I tried the best that I could, and I just want to say that out loud to anyone there that's struggling or to any kids out there that are young adults that are trying to reconnect with their parents. You know me as a parent. I tried to do the best. I thought I was doing the best I could in the moment and there's more that I could have done and I didn't understand what was happening. I didn't understand the dynamics, so I couldn't support my kids in the best possible way. And it was super cool. It was a super cool journey, a super challenging journey, and now watching everything broken apart is super challenging and at the same time, there's some fertile soil to maybe have stuff change. And maybe it's not for me and maybe it is and that's a lot to be said for me to just jump into the show. So let's hear what comes up next.

Speaker 1:

So, as I shared in the little intro, is I didn't know what parental alienation was when I got here and I was in so much pain emotionally and spiritually and I had a tremendous amount of anxiety and fear and I didn't know what to do. What my story was is I landed up getting sober, you know, and I landed up going to Alcoholics Anonymous, a 12-step program and I think this is relevant. Whether you have an addiction, you don't have an addiction, whether you're struggling with food, whether you're just struggling with depression, it just doesn't matter. I landed up at Alcoholics Anonymous and the most important thing about Alcoholics Anonymous is I got a community. In the early days, in the first years of this stuff, I think I would have gone insane without support of people and they weren't necessarily supporting me around parental alienation, but they were supporting me around the emotional and spiritual turmoil in my life and I started to make friends and at that time there wasn't complete alienation with my two oldest kids, and my kids got to experience a lot with me, even though alienation was there and I had no idea about it. I got to take them on trips with other sober families and they got to see what it was like to be in relationship with other people where there wasn't a lot of drama, and I think that's really important and I think that's a really great example. And I don't know how that manifests later in my kid's life, but that was something that I did. That was really wonderful and really great. We're showing them a different way of living, without the drama, without stuff going on, no one telling stories or doing anything about anyone else, just people living together, co-creating a new existence. And everyone was coming out of some kind of pain or some kind of trauma or some kind of struggle in life, kind of like PAA, parental alienation, anonymous. We all came together under this large tent with all different kinds of experiences and we started to work on ourselves and having community.

Speaker 1:

For me, those years saved my life. You know what I mean, and not necessarily that I was going to die physically, but just save my emotional and spiritual life. It gave me a new ground to stand on and it also gave my kids an example of what a stable parent looks like, struggling with something incredibly, incredibly painful. They had consistency and continuity for me, despite that, some of my decisions weren't great, you know, and some of my decisions that weren't great was really about advocating some of my power and my agency to my ex-wife, because I had no idea what was going on in the trauma she had experienced and how that was manifesting in my kid's life. And I like to say this to people that are newer and people that have been around a long time Like I advocated my power, I advocated my agency, and what that means is I trusted that she was going to do the next right thing. I trusted that she had the best interest of me at heart and the kids at heart. And from her perspective, I'm sure she thinks that she did and in some cases she really did.

Speaker 1:

And when I'm dealing with parental alienation and my other partner, I would say in the beginning I wanted to make them all bad, but I don't believe that's true. There's so many wonderful things about my ex-partner and then there's other parts that are really traumatized and really broken to some degree, and it doesn't mean that she's broken. It just means that part of her life experience really influenced how she came into the relationship. And the reason that I was attracted to her is because I had broken pieces too Right. So this parental alienation didn't happen in a vacuum. I picked my partner, I co-created a family system, I was complicit and complacent with a lot of stuff that was going on and I had no idea what was going on. So I'm not a victim and I have suffered some trauma. Heart has broken over and over and over and over again and I'm not responsible for anyone else's behavior. But I can take responsibility for my part.

Speaker 1:

And in 12 step they have the saying about cleaning your side of the street and it doesn't matter if you're 1% responsible, 50% responsible and 99% responsible. Like how do I take responsibility for my behavior on a daily basis? And that might seem trite or counterintuitive, but there's a sense of relief that comes with that when I run into a situation with my ex or my kids which doesn't happen very often anymore with my two oldest kids and my ex, because I don't really have contact. But when it did happen and I ran into a situation with them, it was super important for me to own my part. It was super important for me to start looking at my behavior and where I was coming in maybe being manipulative, or I was coming in maybe being manipulated over while I was coming in, maybe saying something that was derogatory.

Speaker 1:

And the intention is a really, really cool part in the big book in the original big book of AA that says I was judging myself by my intentions and everyone else was judging me by my actions. And as a parent, grandparent, child in any relationship, I think this is, at least for me, it's a paramount spiritual lesson that I have the intention to do the right thing and be a good person and I say, yeah, I'm OK with that. I'm OK with you going to do that, or I'm OK with whatever. I'm OK with your mom having some extra time, or I'm OK with some behavior, extra time, or I'm okay with some behavior, and what I'm doing is I'm giving away my power and agency instead of having a boundary that's super weak and flimsy and I'm accepting whatever behavior is coming up. And accepting whatever behavior is coming up, I'm co-creating this system and this communication loop with my kids that is destabilizing to their nervous system, right? So they have two different parents that are communicating in this way and they're getting communication loop with my kids. That is destabilizing to their nervous system, right. So they have two different parents that are communicating in this way and they're getting tugged backwards and forwards. And if I just have a boundary even though my kids was probably wouldn't have liked it they would have been a lot happier. I believe their nervous systems would have been regulated in a completely different way.

Speaker 1:

And there were times in my relationship that, yeah, I had really good boundaries, you know, but certain stuff around, just seeming like hundreds of texts a day, calls on my time, like all these different things, like I didn't know, like, hey, this is my time. I really need to be clear about how we communicate and how much influence is coming in from the other parent. You know, I remember the other parent always used to drop a food and do all these things and take care of the kids and send notes and stuff like that, and I thought it was just like loving and kind and I think underneath it, yeah, there is a lot of love and kindness, but there's also this form of entraining the kid's nervous system and entrainment is kind of like if you go to a drum circle and someone starts playing on a drum and there's a certain beat and everyone's playing at different beats and then eventually you hear everyone going on the same beat. You know, whatever it is I'm not a great musician or anything, I don't know how that translates but eventually the kids rhythm falls in line with one of the parents and they lose themselves because now their cadence, their rhythm, is based on someone else and that's what parental alienation is. They fall in line with a different rhythm and a different cadence and they kind of like lose themselves.

Speaker 1:

And you hear about splitting, where the kids split up from their authentic self and they land up falling into these behaviors. And I know my tendency in the beginning was to be super pissed at the kids, like how can you treat me this way? Don't you know how much I love you? I'm your father and I couldn't see that they were in this rhythm. And they were in this rhythm because it was actually survival. If they didn't fall into a rhythm, then where would they be like who would they be and how would they navigate the world, especially at a younger age? Like they needed that rhythm and that rhythm was the structure and that rhythm was like a really dysfunctional boundary, but their nervous systems were moving with that. So when you hear like kids saying, hey, I hate you, you're the worst parent, like all these different things, it's because they are falling into this rhythm, into this cadence. They're cutting off from their authentic self in order to survive, in order to survive.

Speaker 1:

I hear so many parents talking about my kid did this to me, my kid's doing this to the other child and turning the other sibling against me. I don't believe that to be true. Kids are just trying to survive and I found in my family system that the kids definitely influenced each other in a way that wasn't useful at times, especially when we're in close proximity to my ex-partner. They would influence each other. They'd sit to my ex-partner, they would influence each other. They'd sit around my ex-partner and one or two of the kids and talk about stuff and slowly get the mind shift and then everyone's on board with this and something terrible is happening and the kids don't even realize that it's just a distorted vision of reality. So when you're struggling with your kids and they're shooting back this distorted vision of reality, they're not doing it to you, they're doing it for themselves, so they don't die. They're falling into this distorted vision of reality. They're not doing it to you, they're doing it for themselves, so they don't die. They're falling into this pattern so they don't get continuously hurt. They don't know what else to do. Their nervous system is so intertwined with the other parent generally, or a grandparent or another family member, that how do they survive?

Speaker 1:

I'm thinking, if you're a young person that was alienated or estranged or still are, and you're listening to this, does this even resonate with you? And I'd love to hear on a comment or an email like does this resonate with you? Can you track when you were younger and you kind of fell in the rhythm with one of the parents about what was saying, what the description or the narrative of the situation was, and you kind of got lost and really didn't know what it was anymore. But you fell into that rhythm because it was safe and you actually knew what to expect. I think that's what it is. The nervous system knows what to expect. I fall into this rhythm and then everything is okay.

Speaker 1:

You know, that was my experience with my children and, as I was saying, sometimes the kids influence the other kids and I hear this over and over again, like I said before, like my daughter's influencing my son and now my son doesn't talk to me. And my daughter how can she do this? And you know, I think that languaging is super hurtful and I'm sure I use that languaging with my kids at times like how could you say that? How could you do that? Why would you say that your sister? Why? And that's not useful. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1:

I really talk a lot about the non-violent communication perspective, where you use empathy, you're not used, but you're actually trying to understand what the kid's going through. So instead of me saying I can't believe, you're told your sister that now she doesn't like me, it's like, oh wow, you're really struggling with the relationship and you're really frustrated and you don't know what to do and you're just sharing with your sister some of your feelings. You know, because I think that's really what it is, even though it might influence another sibling, it's really about the kids just getting to say what's going on with them. So I wrote on this three or four years ago and it's the idea of siloing. So in my experience in parental alienation, the kids are each in a separate silo.

Speaker 1:

So I have three daughters and my perspective of the relationship through the years is my three daughters are in these three individual silos and these three individual silos are connected to a bigger silo and the bigger silo is the other parent, is generally the alienating parent and the alienating parent talks to each child and then the child talks back to the alienating parent. The alienating parent talks to each child and then the child talks back to the alienating parent. The alienating parent disseminates the information that's coming in from the child and then pushes it out to the other silos. So kid number one talks to parent parent, decides what the kid's saying and then pushes it back to kid number two and kid number three through their own lens. So it's actually being co-opted to serve the parent and then it's given back to the kids. So the kids aren't actually having these conversations with each other. There's always the surrogate person involved in the conversation or pushing out the information. So the kids don't really know what the truth is or what's happening because they never get to sit down and really discuss this in a deep way.

Speaker 1:

Critical thinking doesn't come on board fully until the kids are in their most probably mid 30s Like for me at 36 is when I started to see a major shift in my life and I'm guessing that's the same with the kids. You might have heard that the brain fully developed somewhere at 26 or 27. Yes, and critical thinking moving away from the black and white thinking where I hate you versus like oh wow, I really struggled with that thing that you did starts to shift and my kids are a little bit younger than that and this is the research and I'm super curious what happens for me over the next five to ten years. But I think it's useful information. We expect the kids to have the capacity to understand this whole spectrum of communication and right and wrong and not everything's black and not everything's white, but their brain doesn't process it fully that way yet. They need more time, they need more life experience and they need for all their systems to come on board and that's in their early 30s.

Speaker 1:

So, getting back to this idea of siloing like for me from my perspective, where I'm sitting and I could be wrong because I don't have a relationship with my kids I do have a great relationship with my youngest daughter, a little bit of texting with my middle daughter over the last three or four years, but I wouldn't call that a relationship. It feels super challenging, but the girls don't communicate with each other. They don't sit down, vacation with each other, spend chunks of time with each other, really get to know each other. They're all building their lives and seemingly having great lives and doing the best that they can, but they don't have relationships with each other. And it's heartbreaking yeah, I feel like I'm starting to get a little emotional, feel a little bit of tears in my eyes.

Speaker 1:

It's heartbreaking that my daughters don't have a relationship with each other, don't get to really love each other and see each other. They have all these ideas and thoughts about each other, just like they have these ideas and thoughts about me. So you take a second, I don't care where you're on the spectrum of this stuff, but just think about that. My daughters have a vision of who I am as a man and as a person In my perspective. Some of it is distorted and some of it, I'm sure, is super real and I've created some harm and damage too. And their feelings are real. I'm not invalidating anything they would ever feel or say to me, but I'm just saying that who I am today and how I present today. They don't really know me, but they have all these ideas and thoughts about who I am, and the heartbreaking thing is that they have all these ideas and thoughts about who each other are, which limits their ability to really connect and build relationship with each other. And that's how siloing works and that's the most devastating part about parental alienation If you have multiple children.

Speaker 1:

When I first got here, I thought the most devastating thing about parental alienation is my kids didn't have a relationship with me. You know, it was really about me, it was really me-centric, and what I've come to find out for myself is the most devastating and saddest thing at this particular age my kids are 24, 27, and 30, is that my kids don't have an integrated relationship with each other, and I don't think I really started building a really deep relationship with my sister until we were in our 30s too. So it makes sense developmentally and I love my sister and I had contact with her throughout the years. But the devastation of me not having a relationship with the kids has shifted, but the devastation of my kids not having relationships with each other and maybe not, I would say is my biggest pain and my biggest hurt now and I think this is part of recovery and if you're really struggling and you don't know what to do and your heart's breaking on a continuous basis is the shift from the I and the me to the we and to the family and really like centering the kids and noticing that they don't have those relationships and some of my hurts and pains.

Speaker 1:

I'm working within my community. I'm working within PAA. I do a bunch of other spiritual stuff meditation, nonviolent communication, somatic therapy I do all these other things that support me. So I'm no longer looking to get something for my kids and like feed on my kids very similar to the alienator, and it wasn't to the extent on a really traumatic way, but I still needed my kids to love me, to say I love you dad, you know I love you dad, you know I loved. When you know they call me daddy, like I'm just, like that just breaks my heart and brings me back when they were really young and things were really simple. But I would love that in my life but I don't need that in my life to survive. Yeah, it makes me sad. I want them to have a relationship with each other and I'm really excited to see if that shifts and the perspectives are shifting away from the I-centric, the me-centric experience to the girls having relationships to each other, with being of service to the community.

Speaker 1:

You know, there's so many years that I was struggling so much and I didn't know what to do and some days I couldn't get out of bed and I stopped working and you know, I had a lot of physical pain as part of my story and I couldn't get out of my own way and the thing that has saved my life every single time is being of service. So I call the service. Like. I'm here making a podcast and have been involved in this community now for over four years and we've been doing this podcast for maybe a year and a half year and a quarter, something like that and there's so many beautiful people that participate. You just get to see me and hear me and see some of the other folks on panels and stuff like that. But this is an act of service. This is moving from the I-centric to the we-centric, to the community, to the belief that maybe I don't get my kids back, maybe I don't get those relationships back, but if I, the other people on the team, the other people in the community, the professionals that come on the show can share something with you that can shift your experience one eighth of a degree or one quarter of a degree, and you don't have to go through what we went through or going through to that degree. There's a shift, but the shift really comes with taking responsibility for your behavior, for how you show up.

Speaker 1:

I know, when I got here I thought I was good, it was all about the other parent, and I want to reiterate this over and over again. If you don't have, if your only community is your family and your friends, I think it's going to be challenging. At least it was for me. I had to get other people that were in recovery, and that doesn't mean 12-step recovery. That means another support group, that means some spiritual thing, whether it's nonviolent communication, whether it's the artist's way, whatever it is. You know, find people that are going through the same thing, that understand language, get support. You'll start to transform and take every opportunity you can to be of service.

Speaker 1:

You know, one of the best service I'm using the word service now, but now it's really an act of love is, you know, maybe like eight years ago, I became a big brother through Big Brothers and Big Sisters, which is a nationwide nonprofit, and I thought it would be a way to heal a little bit. And I met this wonderful young man and I've been a big brother for eight years now and I've mentioned this before and I tell him that I love him and he tells me that he loves me and he calls me Abba, I call him son, and that's super magical. There's no entitlement, there's no program and there's none of that stuff that I introduced my kids to at a young age. We're getting to start this relationship off where I'm in a mature and spiritual place and I can show up emotionally in a different way and have boundaries in this relationship that we're having. It's fantastic, super, super, super love. This kid and his siblings are in my life to a degree too, and it's just.

Speaker 1:

It's such a gift of parental alienation and I'll just say this as I'm wrapping up this episode is I'm in Hawaii, as you can see, I'm sitting on a patio on the big island. And how did I get here and why am I here? And the only reason I'm here is because of parental alienation. I had to start seeking out different places in my heart and in my life that I could continue to grow and expand as a human being, and I had to learn how to live my life as a person that has children and that has alienation in my life, and not someone that it's just alienation and struggling with alienation, and that's the way my life was for years. So I'm on this beautiful island and the volcano's erupting and there's a lot of impermanence, like this side of the island it's lava zone one and there's no insurance and the volcano can come and take stuff and it's kind of like life and relationships you know what I mean like it really forces you to be present and to really appreciate what you have.

Speaker 1:

And one more time, it's an evolution of who I am as a parent, a father, a brother, a friend, a homesteader or whatever I'm doing. I'm not really sure what I'm doing. You know it's super cool and it comes out of finding myself in a different kind of way and it comes out of me becoming the best parent that I've ever been. I was a good parent when I got here, but I'm a great parent now and it seems counterintuitive because I don't really have contact with my two older kids. But I have done a tremendous amount of work and continue to do a bunch of work and I'm available to my kids and I'm available to my kids and it's shifted. I'm available to so many different people and I have so many different friends and I have so many young people in my life that I get to be, hopefully, a positive influence and a role model, and then things can shift.

Speaker 1:

My belief is that my kids' perspective in life will shift through someone else entering the system that's not me and through someone else entering the system and doing similar kind of work. Then they'll find a path and an access back to me or maybe not, maybe it's the grandkids and I think that if we all do service and we all step in this way, that we have a much greater chance as a community to thrive and for parental alienations to start to change, because it is a systemic issue and it's not going to change unless we're all moving together in some kind of cohesion in a system. So I don't know if any of the show made any sense, but I hope it was useful and it was super fun recording it here and talking about some stuff. And if you're new to the community, again welcome. If no one's told you yet today.

Speaker 1:

I love you, I love my community, I love the people in my life. I've met so many wonderful people in this last six weeks here in Hawaii and none of them are alienated parents as far as I know. But I'm able to connect with people in a different kind of way because I'm a different kind of person and welcome. I hope you have a beautiful day Again. I love you and if no one's told you that yet, today, you know, isn't that nice to hear and isn't it nice to be able to love people without needing anything or wanting anything and just being able to show up. And because it feels good, because it nurtures me, you know, I wish I could tell you it was about you. It's really nice to say it and be able to say those words and not feel embarrassment or awkward about it. But it's really about me taking care of myself.

Speaker 1:

I'm able to love today and I hope that was a wow show. I wasn't viewing anyone, so yeah, comment, wow. Let me know if it was a wow or not a wow or whatever. Anyway, like comment share. 501c3 Nonprofit would love your support. Great having you here today and check out some of the older shows if you're new, because this was very different than what we generally do, and I hope to see you around the neighborhood and have a beautiful day. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.