Family Disappeared

Family Court, Parental Alienation & Child-Centered Advocacy with UK Attorney Daniel Ryan - Episode 110

• Lawrence Joss

Share episode

In this episode, Laurence Joss interviews Daniel Ryan, a family law attorney from the UK, discussing the complexities of the family court system, the importance of a child-centric approach, and the challenges faced by parents navigating custody battles. Daniel emphasizes the need for mediation and alternative dispute resolution, the financial strains on families, and the commercial nature of the legal system. He shares insights on how to prioritize children's needs and the importance of providing support to clients regardless of their financial situation.

Key Takeaways

  • What you want is not necessarily what I'm going to pursue.
  • Family court comes as a real shock to people.
  • The family court system in the UK is so congested.
  • People have stopped being reasonable.
  • The court system is broken.
  • It's about the money first and a justice setting second.
  • He who has the most money will win the day.
  • I can't afford to let you leave and potentially be slaughtered.
  • We do keep looking for the holistic approach.
  • I can't have somebody walk through the door and lose their children.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction to Family Law and Child-Centric Approach
03:02 - Understanding the Family Court System
06:02 - Challenges in the Family Court System
08:50 - Child-Centric Strategies in Family Law
11:53 - Mediation and Alternative Dispute Resolution
14:48 - Financial Strain and Access to Justice
17:49 - The Commercial Nature of Family Law
21:00 - The Impact of Resources on Custody Battles
23:53 - Positive Changes and Client Progress
26:55 - Conclusion and Reflections on Family Law

For more detailed information, please click the link below:
https://www.mckenziepicave.com/

If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:

Email - familydisappeared@gmail.com
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/lawrencejoss

(All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)

Please donate to support PAA programs:
https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=SDLTX8TBSZNXS

This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

Speaker 1:

We say to the client from day one what you want is not necessarily what I'm going to pursue, because what I want is for your children, as quickly as possible, to be able to return back to their childhood without the battle that's going on around them, where mom and dad are hurling things at each other.

Speaker 2:

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves.

Speaker 2:

In today's episode we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. Hi, my name is Lawrence Joss and welcome to the Family Disappeared podcast. And today we have a great guest on the show. His name is Daniel Ryan. He's an attorney out of the UK and we're going to talk about the family court system in the UK, the United States, what the differences are, what's going on over there, and he shares some really invaluable insight about his practice, what it looks like, how he works with parents and also the reality of some of the stuff he needs to communicate as an attorney and how he does that. And we also talk about how dysfunctional the family system is and what some problems are in the court system and how they're resolving them somewhat, or at least trying to imagine a path forward in the UK, and part of the conversation talks about how the word parental alienation is actually getting brought into the court system and what that looks like right now and super recent I think at the end of 2025, that this actually came in to be so, with that said, welcome to the podcast. If you're new to the community, welcome.

Speaker 2:

We have over a hundred podcasts in the can, so there's all kinds of topics. This one happens to be talking with a lawyer, but there's psychologists, there's panels of parents, there's all other kinds of stuff, so check out the old podcasts. We also have some great resources in the show notes and Daniel's information will be in there too. If there's anything of interest you want to check out about Daniel or his practice, and we'd always love to hear what you think about the show Familydisappeared at gmailcom. Shoot me an email, love to hear what you think.

Speaker 2:

We have a free 12-step program parental alienation anonymous. Check that out in the show notes to a beautiful, wonderful community. It's recovery based and it's about working on ourselves and changing our lives and it's one path forward and I always say, like, do the work now. Even if you're in the beginning stages, even if you're just kind of thinking, maybe there's some dynamics in your family, do the work, work on yourself. You can shift any relationship by doing this, at least the relationship with yourself. And we're also a 501c3 nonprofit. Love to have some donations to help us bring more free resources to folks. Please like, share, comment, want to hear what you think about stuff, ask questions, follow up stuff, anything that we can share with the community or just to be of service to you. And with that let's jump into the podcast.

Speaker 2:

So it's funny each time I interview someone that's an attorney or someone that's involved with the legal system. I remember how tumultuous it was when my ex served me with divorce papers and wanted full custody of the kids and I had to go see the attorney and stuff like that, and how anxiety provoking it was and confusing it was and litigious it was. As Daniel and I discuss in the upcoming episode. It's a setup for fighting. People are going there to get a pound of flesh. It's a setup for failure and in doing that the kids suffer and my kids suffered.

Speaker 2:

And I didn't really know at the time I didn't have access to podcasts or a lot of information when this all started. But I remember going to that first court thing and knowing that my ex was asking all these crazy things and I just started going to 12-step meetings and I remember taking the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous with me to this mediational conversation with the other attorney or whatever it was it's really funny Like I didn't have anything to lean on. So I leaned on the community that I barely knew, that I was just becoming part of, and it wasn't directly related to parental alienation, estrangement or erasure, but I had a community that was supporting me and I didn't have any other tools. There was no other way for me to get through that particular moment in time. So if you're struggling and you're new to this and you feel under-resourced, resource yourself when you're going into those first meetings and those first hearings.

Speaker 2:

Find community, find resources and find people that aren't necessarily in the middle of the fray or wanting to fight too. We need grounded folks in our lives too that aren't so raw, don't have so much invested in the fray. At least that's what I found for myself and I hope that's useful. And we are going to now hear what Daniel has to say and I hope you enjoy the show. Daniel, it's great to have you on the show today, and I know it took a couple of bumps and bruises for us to actually get to this moment in time. So I appreciate your patience and if you can take a moment just to introduce yourself to the community and let us know a little bit about you, where you are, what you do, I would love that.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yes, hi, thanks for having me on. I'm delighted to be here.

Speaker 2:

I'm in the United.

Speaker 1:

Kingdom somewhere on the other side of the world from where you are. I'm in the family law business in the United Kingdom. I've been in family law for nearly 20 years, own and run a legal practice here in the UK and we look after parents who are trying to get through the family law court system. That's not an easy ride for anybody, but that's essentially what we do and we try and do that with an overriding sense of care and an overriding responsibility for the children. That's what we try and do over here.

Speaker 2:

That sounds wonderful and I love that you bring in like the responsibility for the children and kind of centering the children, which seems like it's imperative anywhere in the world. I'm curious as far as the court system goes in the UK, what do most people wrongly expect from the family court system the first time they walk in? Like what's that expectation that people have with no experience walking into the court system?

Speaker 1:

I think what they expect is the answer. I think they expect to walk in and there's some fairy, godmother, you know, in the form of a judge who sat at the top of the room, and then a magic wand is waved and suddenly everything is okay. And it just doesn't work that way. Family court comes as a real shock to people when they realize that they are about to go on a pretty arduous and pretty emotional journey, not helped by the family court itself and the various issues that it's got in this country. But yeah, so I think they come in hoping to find some sort of nirvana and they do not.

Speaker 2:

And like them coming into the family court system. They're looking for the judge to make a quick decision. Give them some information, give them some kind of relief, and what they really get is they get stuck within a system that moves really slowly. Is that your same experience in the UK as it is in the United States?

Speaker 1:

Very much so. The family court system in the UK is so congested that we can have family matters child matters in this country can run for years in the family court system and it's not because they're particularly combative, it's not because they're particularly horrible sets of circumstances, it's because there are months and months and months in between hearings, just because of the amount of people who are using the court system.

Speaker 2:

That's fascinating and I have this conversation with so many people in different countries and fundamentally I thought it was the United States family court system that was broken and grinding to a halt, but from what I'm hearing, it's the same in the UK and in so many other countries. They're just not equipped to handle the amount of people that are coming through.

Speaker 1:

They're just not. They're absolutely not. There's not enough anything there that are coming through. They're just not. They're absolutely not. There's not enough anything. There's not enough courtrooms, there's not enough court time, there's not enough judges, there's just not enough full stop to deal with the caseloads. And unfortunately, people and I think this is probably a society problem here in the UK and I'm sure it echoes around the world, but people have stopped being reasonable. They've stopped having the ability to be able to talk to each other and try and resolve matters amicably. Their first recourse is I'm going to take you to court.

Speaker 2:

That's fascinating. When I think about the UK, I don't think about it as litigious as we are, but the sounds of it is incredibly litigious over there as well.

Speaker 1:

I lived in the US many years ago and I found it incredibly litigious. But we are catching up. We're catching up very quickly in this country. Now we'll just take it into court grinding really, really slowly. Is the court system in the UK fundamentally broken? Are the fundamentals?

Speaker 2:

in place to move people through the system in a useful way, and they just don't have the resources to get them there. Or is it just broken period?

Speaker 1:

As I say in the years that I've been doing this, my view is that the court system is broken Because, aside from its infrastructure issues, aside from the fact there aren't enough judges, there aren't enough courtrooms, there isn't enough time, apart from all of that, if you put that to one side, you would kind of hope that the decisions that are coming out are great decisions, and they're not. The decisions are poorly focused often. The decisions often are incredibly one-sided. The decisions are hideously biased at times. There is just a fundamental flaw in the system. As I say, people who are going in hoping that they're going to get a wonderful answer are often coming out more aggrieved than when they went in.

Speaker 2:

Wow, yeah, no, we're seeing the same stuff here. It's just devastating and so many people's lives are just getting ripped apart. No one's getting any kind of closure and ultimately, the kids are the ones that are suffering. So I like when you introduced yourself that it's super child-centric, and when you're dealing with folks going through this, what is your way of centering the child's needs? Are there any strategies or something that you find really useful?

Speaker 1:

We're just incredibly blunt with our clients, and I've always been this way.

Speaker 1:

This is an ethos that we've carried in all the time that I've been doing this.

Speaker 1:

But we say to the client from day one what you want is not necessarily what I'm going to pursue, because what I want is for your children, as quickly as possible, to be able to return back to their childhood without the battle that's going on around them where mom and dad are hurling things at each other. So we're very direct with our clients and we say look, you know, our first interest is to pursue the returning of a childhood to the child and we trust you that you come along for the journey with us and we trust that we don't fall out along the way. But that will always be our priority. We've stuck to that, as I say, for all the years we've been doing this and my team are aware that that's important to me and my clients are aware that's important to me. And you know that's not everybody's choice. Some people choose to say, well, no, frankly, I want an attorney who's just going to go and attack the other side and I say, well, if that's what you're looking for, that's not here, but you won't find that here.

Speaker 2:

I love that approach and I'm curious when you are really blunt and saying this is what we're going to do and it's not necessarily what you want on. Most people like able and receptive to hear that, or a majority of people Not so much.

Speaker 1:

I mean, we get all sorts of people walk through our door, so some people are almost quite relieved by that, the fact that somebody is taking the weight and saying look, listen, it's about the children, let's just focus on the children. Other people are a bit resistant at first and, as I say, they either go off and find somebody else to fight for them, and that's fine, that's their choice or, you know, they spend a bit of time with us, a lot of time talking to me, and then they realize that, well, actually, yeah, I kind of get it. I kind of get it, you know, and all right, everybody wants to score some points along the way. You know, dad wants to score points off mom and mom wants to score points off dad, and that's fine, but let's not score points off the children.

Speaker 2:

I love that and in your practice, are your clients traditionally the folks that don't necessarily have access to the kids, or sometimes are your clients the people that have the primary access. Is it a mix?

Speaker 1:

It's a mix. Yeah, it's a mix. We look after mums, we look after dads, we look after clients who have the children. You know they're the primary carer. We're trying to sort of safeguard that up to a point, but also get the other party reintroduced, if it's safe to do so. Unfortunately, some cases are pretty ugly and there are issues around the other parent. We have a real mix in terms of people, in terms of moms, in terms of dads, in terms of faith. All of life walks through our door.

Speaker 2:

And do you have any other options, once you engage a client besides the family court system there, that you can help them move through some kind of resolution or some other pathways specifically in the UK that we might not have access to out here?

Speaker 1:

Honestly, I don't know whether we do in the US now, but over here in the UK we are big fans of mediation.

Speaker 1:

So the court is quite keen for people to say look, have you tried professional mediation? So have you tried sitting down with an independent human being who is going to listen to the argument from both sides and try and find some middle ground? Now I have access to a mediation company, I have a partnership with a mediation company in order that we can do that. So sometimes I will sit with clients who've come through the door ready and armed, ready to go to court, and we steer them away from that and say, well, let's not do that, let's try this, let's talk mediation first. So that's a route that we have in the UK the court is quite keen to promote. It doesn't always work because people are quite entrenched in their position, but it's something that we try and, over and above that, we also, just within this practice, we have access to social workers and child therapists in order that we can try and focus on the mental health of the children.

Speaker 2:

It sounds like you have a lot of different options and it's also holistically based that you can pull in different professionals, that you don't necessarily have the skill set that can help move the process through in a more child-centric manner.

Speaker 1:

That's true, it's a deliberate thing and we keep adding bits on as we keep thinking about maybe we should have this inside this circus that I run, and so, yeah, we do keep adding bits on. We say, well, maybe we should have that because that would be good to be able to work with the children, maybe we should have that because that would be good to work with the parents. So, yeah, we keep looking for the holistic approach if we possibly can.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and here's a little bit of a different question, as with all these different people that are coming in, have you ever advised someone not to pursue the process, the court system, custody or something like that, because it's going to create some unnecessary harm or emotional turmoil? That's not manageable.

Speaker 1:

Yes, there have been over the years. I would say we've had hundreds of people come through our door. So over the years there are clients that I have advised let's not do family court, we don't need to, we can deal with this without family court. And then there have been other clients who've come through my door and this is sad, but we live in a reality where their circumstances often perhaps where they've been not ideal as parents and I'll use that phrase where I've sat with them and said, look, in my view it's not in the best interest of the children for me to pursue them, but with you by my side in the family court, I don't think that's fair. I think they've been through enough. I think they've been through, you know, some pretty unpleasant times as a result of you and the other party, the other parent, and maybe we should just let it go and just let them get on with their lives. And that's a tough decision to make.

Speaker 2:

You know it's a conversation that I've had on a number of occasions is there ever a time like I don't know if you age out of the court system in the uk like 18? Here kids are adults and they don't really have any recourse in the court system it's 16 in the uk 16, 16 in the uk wow, that's interesting.

Speaker 2:

And like, if someone's coming and the kids are like 14, 14 and a half, and you know it's going to be a year, year and a half process, do you say, hey, wow, this doesn't make any sense. This is what's going to happen over the course of the period and I wouldn't spend the time and money doing this right now.

Speaker 1:

Exactly. Yeah, if people come in through my door where the children are sort of really 13 onwards, I'm starting to sort of stick a flag up and say, look, we're possibly in trouble here, we're possibly too late here, because by the time we get through the process, the children are going to be so old that the court's not going to rule an order for them. Or, worse still, you're going to walk into the court on day one and the court's going to say, well, given that we know how long this takes, we're not interested in this case.

Speaker 2:

Right, that makes a lot of sense. And with your experience with the different parents that have come in through the course of the years, what emotional blind spots do you see these parents having from your experience that you need to kind of like maybe educate them or resource them a little bit on?

Speaker 1:

I think the single biggest issue that parents have when the relationship breaks down is they forget their children. They forget their actions. Whatever they're going to do invariably to each other over the course of the next year or two years is going to impact on their children, and they're so absorbed in the battle and they're so absorbed in looking to win and score points and gain that they forget that there are children in the middle of this who are not sure what's going on. All they can see is that two people who used to be in their family are now going at each other hammer and tongue, and that is a real issue. So that's the thing that I think overridingly.

Speaker 1:

People come into me with this. I just need to fight and I've lost all sight of reality. And I've lost all sight of reality and I've lost all sight of being reasonable, and I forgot the fact that my children are going to get impacted by this, because I just want to kind of put them onto the sidelines while we run this play, and I want this play to be confrontational and I want it to be aggressive and I need to win.

Speaker 2:

That's interesting and super insightful. I love how simple you pare it down to that they forget. You know what I mean, because I think I know that I do that in my life over and over again that I forget what's actually happening because I'm trying to get somewhere, get something, extract something, and just the basic idea like forgetting. The kids are just trying not to die, they just want to feel safe, they just want to get back to some form of normalcy. I can see, you know, affecting most of us. That makes a lot of sense and I know the court systems here are super monetized, like there's a lot of money going in a lot of different directions and they cannot necessarily get into the kids to help support the kids. Do you find the court system there is also kind of like drudged down by money and all these different parties that are getting paid in different directions, and that's part of the thing. That's really slowing the mechanism down is the capitalism of the event.

Speaker 1:

I think you fit the nail on the head there, lawrence. That's incredibly insightful because you know again, a comment I've made many times over the years is that the court system is a commercial environment first and a justice environment second. You know everybody's making money, and I include myself, you know in. You know everybody's making money and I include myself, you know, in that mix. Everybody's making money in the family court. If you're a mediator, you're making money. If you're an attorney, you're making money. If you're a judge, you're making money. Everybody's making money. The only people who aren't are the two parents, because all they're doing is losing money. But there is undoubtedly an argument that says that court proceedings are protracted deliberately, in my view, on some occasions in order that the money can keep flowing. And there are undoubtedly attorneys out there, lawyers out there, solicitors out there, as we refer to them here in the UK who would prefer to drag the matter out because it continues to add to the fee pile.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and there's just no real way to streamline it and get away from the money because it is a government organization. And you said, what did you say? It's something first and something second.

Speaker 1:

It's a commercial setting first. So it's about the money first and it's a justice setting second. That is my view that you know it's about there's money in this because you go to court. It costs you money to go to court cost you money for your attorney. It costs you money to pay the fees to for the court to even accept your case. It costs money. It costs money. Then the court says we're going to call in psychological evaluation for argument's sake. We want you to go and find a psychologist and do an evaluation on you and the children. That costs money. The court says you know we want to get a disclosure from the police because you've both been involved with the police and we want to know what the police have got on their computer system about you. That costs money because the police in the UK charge money to release files about people. It's money, it's money. It's money, it's money.

Speaker 2:

Wow, that's interesting about the police charging to release information.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and a lot of money, a lot of money to release information about people.

Speaker 2:

That's insane In your view, like this idea of reversing the paradigm and it's justice first. Are there things that you've seen working or ideas that you have that would actually have justice first? Is that even possible in this time and age that we live?

Speaker 1:

I don't think it is. I'll make it as grand as that, but as a world we are driven entirely by the dollar or the pound or the yen or whatever it might be. We are driven entirely by it, and every element of our society, certainly here in the UK, every element of our society, certainly here in the UK, every element of our society, has a price on it and it has a price to participate. You even have to pay in order to try and find what fair looks like. Obviously, when you're in the court system over here we have where a parent is regarded to possibly have some safeguarding issues, and so they need to see their children in a controlled environment for a while. We refer to those as contact centers. Here in the UK, those contact centers charge a fee. So I've now got a situation where I've got a mom or a dad who I'm saying to them well, you get to go and see your child every two weeks for two hours, but it's going to cost you this much money.

Speaker 2:

Yes, that's insane. We have those here too and it's dehumanizing, it's humiliating and it's challenging and it's expensive and folks without resources don't even have access to even have any kind of contact, because it's set up that having resources to money within the judicial system, with not giving up the kids because they have more money, with not showing up, with manipulating the time of the court and stuff just based on how many resources they have.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. He who has the most money can afford the best legal representation and he will win the day. That is the simplicity of the system over here. He who has the most money will win the day. That is the simplicity of the system over here. He who has the most money will win the day, and he who has the most money will control the proceedings as to what happens, how to speed them up, how to slow them down. All that will happen with he who's got the most money.

Speaker 2:

And that's based on being able to pay the most high powered attorney or the attorney with the most different resources and stuff to, like you say, control the environment, control the flow of paperwork, control. Everything is just based on access to resources.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, exactly. It's as simple as that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I see that getting weaponized all the time and people just struggling and just working a job just to pay to show up to see their kids for an hour or two, and it's again. It's demoralizing and it's not sustainable. So when you have parents that don't have as much resources that other parents have, that you're resourcing, do you see these people burn out on the financial side and actually move away from the whole court just because they can't continue to afford the process that's going on?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's two answers to that. There's sort of a very general one, there's one specific to us. The general answer is yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

There are parties who run out of money and they can't afford to be in this fight anymore because they can't afford the contact centre and they can't afford legal representation, and so they try and carry on on their own because in this country you're allowed to represent yourself in court, but that's never going to go well because you're always up against people, obviously, who are familiar, who are legally trained, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1:

So they either run out of money and drop out of the game because they realize they're never going to win. We have a slightly different, perhaps a more positive, situation, because with our clients we do have a mechanism whereby, if we've taken a client on and we're working with them and they start to run out of money, I have a commitment, a personal commitment to those clients, that I won't allow them to drop out of the system simply because they don't have the funds to stay in the game. So we will continue for them and we will pick up those costs, and that's something that we'll do, because I can't deal with the thought of a parent who has lost their opportunity to be a parent purely because they can't afford to play the game anymore.

Speaker 2:

Well, that's a profound statement that you're actually going to stay with people if they run out of resources and help them through the process. And you don't hear that very often. That's such an interesting point of view and I hear you say you can't let go because they're stuck, and stuff like that. But how is that sustainable in your practice when that happens or that doesn't happen very often?

Speaker 1:

I mean, thankfully it doesn't happen very often, Otherwise we couldn't do it, to be perfectly honest. But if I put a figure on it, if I put a number on it, probably currently, of our clients that we're working with, probably somewhere between 25 and 30% of them are working with us without paying a single penny or dollar in fees.

Speaker 2:

Well, that is incredible. I wish that was the way it was everywhere. And you know folks that are on the margins and do not have resources that would have an opportunity to move some way through the system. That's super wonderful to hear. I haven't heard that before from an attorney.

Speaker 1:

I'll tell you, it's an ethos that I started with all the years ago that I did this. I just said this is something we would do. It just seems that I can't have. Maybe I'm just too much of a softie, but I can't have somebody walk through the door and I think you can't afford to work with me. But I can't afford to let you leave and potentially be slaughtered in this court or never even go to this court and lose your children and the relationship with your children as a result. I can't let that happen.

Speaker 2:

That's a beautiful quality, daniel, to be a softie. I love that. I think that's super refreshing, as you're going through the process with the parents and maybe you're doing mediation, maybe you're doing something else. How do you know when something's moving in a positive direction? What changes, what shifts do you start to see happen within the context of representing your client or in the context of mediation or anything like that?

Speaker 1:

I think we see, obviously, having done it for many years, you know what the direction of travel is in court, you know what's happening in court and you start to be able to predict and this is probably quite sad really, but you start to be able to predict what the next two or three steps ahead are going to look like, be they good or bad, but you start to predict it.

Speaker 1:

But in terms of the client, we always see as time goes by, sadly, mainly because of the amount of time they spend with us, we do see a change in attitude over time and they do start to become a little bit more relaxed, a little bit more open to having a bit more sensible conversation with the other side.

Speaker 1:

And that's not always possible because the other side may not be in that place and they may still be looking for the fight. Certainly, my experience of proceedings over here, purely because of the time they take, is people do start to relax after a while. Maybe that's because they start to get bored, but they start to relax after a while and they start to sort of think well, all right, I'll give a bit if I can. You know, we can sort of move this matter on a little bit, I'll give a bit of ground, and that's a great place to be. And, on a little bit, I'll give a bit of ground, and that's a great place to be and to be able to predict that and to know that that's where you are, to be able to sit with a client and say, look, maybe we're ready now to have a conversation with the other side, maybe we're ready to do that now.

Speaker 2:

That's great and I like that, and also, unfortunately, the predictability and knowing a couple steps ahead is a little morose at times. But it's also useful to be able to track what's happening and be realistic about how things are going to move through the system. Well, what an interesting interview. I really appreciate Daniel's directness. I appreciate that his law firm is helping people out at times that don't even have resources, that he's even talking about that. I don't find that very often in the United States and that's a generalization of me too.

Speaker 2:

I'm sure there's a lot of people doing some really wonderful work and helping people out that don't have a lot of resources. I guess just the weight of the court system and how hard it is makes me skeptical. I guess maybe that's coming out, maybe there are a bunch of people doing that, but anyway, thank you for coming along for the journey. I hope the show was interesting. I think it was a nice rhythm and a very different rhythm, a more succinct kind of exchanging of information. Yeah, I found it interesting in my body, like sometimes the conversations draw out and there's more going on, but we covered a lot of different stuff and were able to move through things differently, so I actually enjoyed the pace because I'd had a different rhythm.

Speaker 2:

Anyway, hope you enjoyed it. Familydisappeared at gmailcom. If you want to drop me an email with any kind of insights, questions or ideas for different shows, anything like that too and remember to check the show notes Parental Alienation Anonymous there's a link in there for the free 12-step meeting. Share comment. Like love to hear what you have to say, and if no one's told you yet today, I love you. I even love Daniel. Love to hear what you have to say, and if no one's told you yet today, I love you. I even love Daniel.

Speaker 2:

I had never met Daniel before. You know, usually we do like a little pre-getting to know someone, but I was traveling and I dropped some stuff and there wasn't really a clean access point to get the podcast done. So I really appreciate his patience and, yeah, what a fun thing. So I hope you have a beautiful day. I hope to see you around the neighborhood and come back for the second part of the show, because it's actually super fun at the end and super interesting. We get into some other nuances and to Daniel's dreamscape of what he'd like to see happen in the process of the family court system. So see you later. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.