Family Disappeared

The Forgiveness Superpower: Her Secret to Healing Generational Abuse & Parental Alienation - Episode 114

• Lawrence Joss

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In this enlightening conversation, Gail Kirshenbaum shares her profound journey of forgiveness, focusing on her relationship with her mother and the impact of generational trauma. She emphasizes that forgiveness is a personal journey meant for self-healing rather than condoning past behaviors. Through her experiences, Gail illustrates the importance of understanding the backgrounds of those who have hurt us, reframing our expectations, and the transformative power of kindness. She also outlines her seven steps to finding forgiveness, highlighting the significance of creating distance, building a support system, and engaging in creative expression as essential tools for healing.

Key Takeaways

  • Forgiveness is for ourselves, not for others.
  • Understanding the past of those who hurt us is crucial.
  • Creating distance can help in the healing process.
  • Forgiveness can transform relationships, even if one party isn't ready.
  • Kindness can change someone's day and perspective.
  • Generational trauma affects how we relate to others.
  • Self-forgiveness is essential for healthy relationships.
  • Reframing expectations can lead to emotional freedom.
  • Journaling and creative expression are powerful healing tools.
  • Forgiveness is a journey that takes time and effort.

Chapters

00:00 - The Essence of Forgiveness
04:15 - Gail's Journey of Healing
10:23 - Reframing Relationships
16:34 - Understanding the Power of Forgiveness
21:43 - The Impact of Generational Trauma
27:32 - Steps to Finding Forgiveness
33:24 - The Role of Kindness in Healing

If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:

Email - familydisappeared@gmail.com
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/lawrencejoss
(All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)

Gayle Kirschenbaum’s Website: https://www.gaylekirschenbaum.com

Please donate to support PAA programs:
https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=SDLTX8TBSZNXS

This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

SPEAKER_00:

I think a lot of people believe forgiveness means you're condoning the behavior. You're not condoning that behavior. And you're not forgetting. We will never forget. We don't forget and we don't condone. We forgive for ourselves and for nobody else.

SPEAKER_01:

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually, and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode, we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. Hi, my name is Lauren Straws, and welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. Today we have an interesting interview with Gail Kirschenbaum. Gail is talking about forgiveness and her journey with her mother and talking about what it was like when she was a child and the idea of whether she was going to cuddle from her family or not, taking space and her emotional and healing journey, and then what it looks like today with her 102-year-old mom that she's currently taking care of. And it's just a wonderful reflection about how relationships can shift and change. And as we all struggle with different variations of our relationship, I'm just trying to open a lens for a different generation and what healing looks like in that generation, and how can we apply this to what we're all going through today as well. So if you're new to the community, welcome. The pulse on this show is a little bit different, but still super interesting. We have over a hundred podcasts in the camp. Please check out different episodes depending on what you want to hear about you know, attorneys, therapists, panels of parents, and whatever else. And thanks for coming out today. We have a bunch of resources in the show notes. All Gail's information will be in the show notes. We also have a free 12-step program, Parental Alienation Anonymous, which is a great place to build community, build some resilience, learn about forgiveness. You know, step eight and step nine in the 12-step program is about making amends and forgiveness. And then kind of like Gail gets into the story here about forgiving yourself. And ultimately, that's what she's talking about today is how do we learn how to forgive ourselves so we can't have relationships with other people? So please like, share, comment, love to hear from you, and let's get into the show. I've shared the story before. My dad passed about seven or eight years ago, and my dad was a beautiful man and incredibly difficult. You know, must probably had some narcissistic tendencies, definitely had some trauma and some stuff he had never worked through, and his generation didn't necessarily have access to the same kind of work that I have access today, and our kids have access tomorrow. I started doing this work and I came along nonviolent communication, which I talk about often, and I started just applying that to my father. And this was after I'd done a lot of interpersonal work with myself and learned how to forgive myself, learn how to have a relationship, learn how to be around people. And for me, my forgiveness practice started with people that were further away, with little things in my life. It wasn't about me starting with my father, which was one of the bigger charges in my life. I was starting with something simple at the bakery. So anyway, I started practicing with my dad and I stopped needing something from him. I dropped the title of dad, and he was just this other human being that was in this life and had his own struggles and his own trauma, and I just started reflecting back to him what was going on. And it opened up this portal in my heart for forgiveness, and it also opened up this portal in my dad's heart to be heard maybe for the first time in his life. And from that place, I learned so much about him, and it was all built on forgiveness, on me forgiving myself and learning about who I am, and then taking this practice out into my family after I'd practiced it with a lot of other lower threshold relationships, and it transformed my relationship with my dad. I learned stuff about him that no one else in the family learnt, and I healed myself and my wound. So when my dad did pass, there was no work left to do. So if you're an estranged, alienated child, young adult, parent, whatever, this is our work to do no matter what door we're coming in. And once we start to heal and love ourselves, then the forgiveness practice starts because we don't necessarily need what we thought we needed from those loved ones in our families. Like we don't need someone to take care of us, to fix us, to change us. It's about us doing those things for ourselves, and then we get to connect from this other place. And that's what Gail's talking about. And I love that she's doing this with a 102-year-old mother. I can't do that. I don't see that as a possibility, but it's a beautiful thing that people are doing that and are practicing this, and it's a little bit different practice in my practice, but it's a beautiful practice too. So let's hear a little bit about Gail's story and her journey. And I hope you enjoy the show. So today we have Gail Kirshenbaum on the podcast. And Gail, if you could please just introduce yourself to the community and let us know a little bit about you.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, well, thank you for having me as a guest. I'm a New Yorker, and I, like probably many others, and probably many of your listeners, had a very challenging childhood. I say I was born into the wrong family. There was a lot of abuse led by my mom, and my brothers followed orders. You know, they were her bouncers, and I left very early. I went to college very young. It was like I had two lives. I was having a successful career. I'm a creative. So finally I did many things, a designer, and then I ended up in Los Angeles making TV and winning awards and being all over the media. And when I hit middle age, it was, as I said, it was like two lives because one day I'm on TV or featured in the New York Times, and the next day I'm flying back to see my family, and I'm being bullied and criticized, and I'm reacting to it, you know, as I reacted to it when I was young. I'm getting angry, I'm cowering, I'm giving it back. So it was like I had the scapegoat hat here and victim, you know, all over me. And so many of my friends who witnessed what I went through, particularly in my childhood and even in my adult life, kept saying, just cut it off. You know, you don't need them in your life, cut it off. And I just didn't want to go down that road. And I just knew that what I needed to do was figure out the secret to finding forgiveness. And I knew I'd have to start with my mother. I had no idea how I was gonna do it. I had an experience in actually when I was living in Los Angeles that was a light bulb moment, but I just buried it, forgot about it, and then I recalled it, and I'm gonna tell you what it was. I met a woman who had a challenging childhood, and she was a French woman. And in her healing, she became a facilitator of a forgiveness board game, like literally a board game. You throw the dice, you move your piece, and wherever you land, you have to do whatever it says you should do. And the only thing I remember, memory is another thing. I have very bad memory, but that's another topic, and I think it's PTSD. I landed somewhere, she said, stand up and close your eyes. And I did. And she said, Imagine your mother as a little girl. And at that point, I had done my research because you know, my mom, anytime I would ask her anything was, I don't know, I don't remember. I actually made a film called Look at Us Now, Mother, that premiered in some theaters and then it was on Netflix. And I did a whole segment in that movie of her saying, I don't know, I don't remember in completely different backgrounds because that was her constant response when I tried to get some answers. So I did my own research from everything from digging up genealogy records, from interviews, finding family members, finding clippings, you know, where I saw tragedies in her past. And I ended up piecing the narrative of her childhood. So I saw the hardships of her childhood. And when this woman, this facilitator of this board game, said, Imagine your mother as a little girl, I saw a wounded little girl. And then she said, Now imagine yourself as a little girl. Well, I knew I was a wounded little girl. And then she said, You now come together. And that was such a light bulb moment because she was no longer my mother. And everything that comes with somebody being your mother, all the expectations, because anybody's in her life, whatever role or position they have, brother, you know, sibling, lover, partner, child, parent, grandparent, it comes with expectations. So a mother, well, a mother should love you, they should adore you, they should nurture you, right? And my mother did that to my brothers, which I witnessed, and you could see it in all this eight millimeter footage. I was born in the 50s. My father bought the eight millimeter camera. So actually, the first bit of footage is my mother pregnant with me, and the next is me as an infant in my mom's arms. So I had all this footage to explore, and you could see her loving my brothers and giving them, you know, whatever, cuddling and giving them baths, and then me as an infant in a high chair, and her feeding me and having no patience and yanking my arm. It's all there. It's a silent movie, but you could just see the body language.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for that introduction, Gail. There's so many questions I have just from that little bit, and then we're going to hear a little bit more of your story. So a lot of our community is estranged parents and grandparents, and there's a lot of kids that have chosen to estrange or take some time for themselves, whatever definition folks want to use. And I'm hearing in your story, you didn't completely cut off or severities from your family. Was there any particular stretch of time that you said, hey, and you didn't really have much contact, or did you always have some kind of continuity to the contact?

SPEAKER_00:

Two weeks I cut off with my mom because one of the many things she criticized me about and campaigned for was that I would have a nose job. And that must have started, I don't know, when I was 14 and I didn't want one. And now I was what in my 40s or 50, I don't remember. I was in Los Angeles working in television, and I was supposed to have sinus surgery, and she kicked in again with the nose job. Oh, they're gonna be in there, you might as well have your nose done. At which point she didn't leave me alone about it, and I just stopped talking for two weeks. But that's about as long as it lasted.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for that. It's just always curious because so many of us are on this precipice, no matter which direction we're coming from. Do we continue the relationship? Are we maxed out on energy and we can't really show up today? Do we take two weeks, like you said? Do we take two years? Do we take five years? And I think it's all just on this arc and everything's welcome. And Gail's was only two weeks, and some people are struggling with two years, five years, twenty years. And I love the start to the conversation because it comes down to forgiveness and doing our own interpersonal work. And I want to get back to that little story you told about playing that board game and forgiveness came up. And this person asked you to stand up and imagine your mother as a little girl and imagine yourself. And that sounds like that was the impetus to the beginning of your real healing journey through forgiveness. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it was something that I did that I forgot about, okay? And then I went on with my life. And then I guess a few years later, when I realized I couldn't keep going on like this, you know, we only have control over ourselves. And as you know, our brain is our most important organ and, you know, the mind-body-spirit connection. We can get ourselves sick physically and we can heal ourselves. So I knew that I only have control over myself and my own thoughts. And I needed to let go of this relentless frustration and anger. And by the way, it's not like you shut it off. It takes a lot of work. My mother and I till today, she's 102, believe it or not, and I'm her caregiver. I'm with her now. I've moved here to take care of her. We can go at it. She hangs up with me in mid-sentence, but I laugh. Because what happens is when I changed, I would say the word is reframing. I reframed how I looked at her. What gets us so upset about relationships or with somebody is unfulfilled expectations, right? Why didn't they do this? Why didn't they say this? Why didn't they behave that way? And those expectations are attached to that role that person has in your life, whatever that role is. Okay. So when I took her off the pedestal of mother, love me and adore me, and I made her a wounded little child, I completely changed my expectations of her. So I reframed how I looked at her, I changed my expectations. So just so you know, maybe you know your audience would like to know this, I did not marry and I didn't have children. And I do think those are scars because I think at age 12, I said, I'm never gonna let anybody hurt me again. So my two issues is trust and abandonment. The reason I even brought it up now for those who are parents, when your little child looked up at you, your little three-year-old child or whatever, and said, Mommy or daddy, I don't love you anymore. What did you do? You bent down and picked them up and gave them love because you know that's what they needed. So when your mother looks at you and says you're fat, you're stupid, you're gonna amount to nothing, who's gonna marry you, whatever the stuff is, the vile comments. I just looked at her as a wounded child and I just blew it off. You know, I just laughed it off. And so I did that many times. And then you take their power away because you know the statement hurt people, hurt people. When we feel pain, we will hurt others. That's very common, okay? When we're feeling lots of love, we are not hurting other people. We are giving love. So all those nasty comments, all the criticisms, all the bullying that I got from her and my brothers, by the way, I then just blew it off. I took the power away. And so what happens is when people they want to have control, they want to have impact on you with their criticisms, with their abuse, however, however it comes, what shape and form. People always talk about physical versus verbal. I had both, but honestly, it's the verbal that stays with us. Those are the scars that are deepest, at least for me. So once I stopped reacting and laughing it off, it's like I took what was Superman's power?

SPEAKER_01:

His kryptonite?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I took the kryptonite away. Right, exactly. And so she didn't have any power anymore. It's just really funny. After I did this work and I had forgiven her, the only person I felt somewhat close to my family or felt loved me was my grandmother, my mother's mother. She was a woman who didn't have much, but she had a few pieces of jewelry which I inherited. And it was that it was so meaningful to me because she was significant in my life. And my mom's a real fashionista, and I was getting ready to go somewhere, and she's saying, Wear this piece of jewelry with this dress. And usually I keep it in the safe deposit box, and it wasn't there. And I told her, and I couldn't find it in my house. And now starts the whole barrage of criticism. You lose everything, you're worth nothing. And the fact is, I don't lose things. She does. She got to the point she had no use for me because I was now useless, and she hung up the phone of me. Cut to hours later, I find the jewelry. I call her up and I say, I found it. And she switches on a dime. And like we're best friends, like we're just these two girlfriends. Oh, Gail, you don't know how many times I lose things. And I started laughing and I said, Mom, I just want to thank you for all the love and support you gave me today. And she started cracking up because she realized she was a real bitch. So it's not what people say to you, it's how you respond to them. That's the key. I have a TED talk out called No More Drama with Mama. And I've looked at these comments and I tell people, you don't have to reconcile, but you have to forgive for yourself. My slogan and my motto is I feel forgiveness is my superpower. You just have to do it for yourself. I did reconcile two decades of a great life with my mom. And we have a lot of fans of social media, and they're all so jealous of this relationship. But you don't have to reconcile, you just forgive for yourself.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. And you said a couple really poignant things in there. I just want to touch on quickly is that you played this game, you imagined your mom as a young girl, and it took a year or two years or three years for it actually to click in and really become part of your life for you to start really working on that. And I want to say for anyone out there that's struggling, my experience is very similar. I heard stuff and it took two years or one year or three years for me to understand it. And what I heard all the time is that the years will reveal what the days cannot. So it takes time for the stuff to seep in, especially when we're having trauma and we're struggling with relationships, everything takes time to slowly come in. And the one other thing you said, which I think is really important, and they say this in Al-Anonon, which is a 12-step program, is that they talk about dropping the labels. And you talked about dropping the label of mother and the expectations and the not needing those particular things from her anymore. And from that place you're able to start accessing forgiveness. And why do you believe that forgiveness is so difficult, especially within the family system?

SPEAKER_00:

You mean difficult for people to experience it, to feel it? Well, I think first of all, people might misunderstand the word because I think a lot of people believe forgiveness means you're condoning the behavior. You're not condoning that behavior, and you're not forgetting. We will never forget. We don't forget and we don't condone. We forgive for ourselves and for nobody else. So that is the key because there's a million expressions. You know, you flip through social media and there's so many little quotes that come up. You know, it's like having a leash around your collar and a leash around your neck and giving the leash to your abuser. It's about cutting that leash off and setting yourself free emotionally from it. That is the power. So you know Victor Frankel, right? Man search for meaning. Yeah. And I don't remember the exact quote. You might remember. That book talks about what made people survive and others not, and it's about the power of their thoughts, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and Victor Frankel was a survivor from the Holocaust, for anyone out there that's not familiar with him. An incredible writer, I'd recommend anything that he wrote to anyone. And I think he said the how gives you the why or something. There's a reason to live, and there's got to be a why. I got the quote somewhere. I'll look it up and make sure I stick that in the show notes for everyone. It's super, super powerful.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, right. So he said that you know the Nazis could torture you, whatever they do to your body, but how you think is what you have control over. And that is the key, our thoughts.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and you're talking about forgiveness and forgiveness is for you. And and what does that feel like in your body, like sensations? Like, what does that even mean? Forgiveness is for me, for you, for Gail. What does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_00:

It's my superpower. I mean, I will say this over and over again. I feel like it doesn't matter what anybody says or does. I know how I can reframe what they say and look at it differently and not let it have it penetrate me and hurt me. And you know, it's those primary relationships that are the most important. And so many people struggle with a parent who's long gone, and they're still hanging on to that anger. So I just feel incredibly lucky. I'm very healthy. I have to tell you, I was the youngest of three, and my older brother is not with us. He got cancer, and there was never cancer in the family, and he lived with a lot of anger and a lot of rage and a lot of secrets. Now, I've never been in a 12-step program, but is this statement from a 12-step program you're as sick as your secrets?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so I thought it was, and I actually share it often with people when I'm coaching because it is so true. When you keep things in, it turns to shame, and shame kills you. Yeah, and my other brother, unfortunately, he's sick now with Parkinson's. And, you know, knock on wood, I'm very healthy, and I think it's about keeping your brain health. Our brain has to be healthy, and that's her thoughts, and all of this. You know, we have to take care of ourselves.

SPEAKER_01:

So, what I'm hearing you say when you talk about forgiveness for yourself, it helps you maintain your health, it helps you maintain your autonomy, your agency. You're able to take care of yourself. You don't have to take on other people's stuff, and then it translates into having a much healthier, more full life, is what I'm hearing you say. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, and mind you, I am super sensitive. I'm a creative. You know, I came out of the wound very, very sensitive. In fact, in my film and in my memoir, I just read the whole book because we recorded it as an audio book, so it's very fresh in my mind. But one of the therapists we went to said essentially, I came into this family made to think there was something wrong with me. I came in super curious about life, and they didn't know what to do with me, and my mom couldn't control me. And the boys were raised to either be a doctor or a lawyer, and I was supposed to be the teacher. And guess what? One of my brothers became a doctor, one became a lawyer, and I picked the university that did not have an education department. I did not do what I was supposed to do, and my older brother, and he even says it in the movie, and the one that's not with us, he said he was a good soldier. He did what he was told to do. And here he was, eight years older. And when my mother said to him, Hold your sister down or put her on the refrigerator, he followed his orders, you know? That's what his boss told him to do. And unfortunately, he died with a lot of regrets. That's the other thing. Regrets kill us. Regrets are really bad. And I want to say one thing. This is very poignant. We did not have a good relationship, as you can imagine, because he continued to bully me throughout life, as my other brother did. And now finally, I after the older one passed, I'm developing a relationship with my other brother. And by the way, it's generational. So people are trained. If they see a parent bullying somebody else in the family, they could train the children to do the same. So my brother, he had a lot of rage towards me. And you know, I was always the one in the arts. And when you're in the arts and if you're working independently, you have to raise money. And, you know, even when I had beginners luck and won an Emmy for my first film, there was no acknowledgement, or I was saying, Hey, I'm in a glamorous field. If there was best lawyer, you would win it. Like I had to make an excuse. But there he was dying. And you know, cancer is a horrific death, and I'm sure everybody who's listening has been touched by it one way or another. And he was so thin and it was horrible. And he looked at me, he could barely speak, and he said, You know, I'm very jealous of you. And my knee-jerk reaction was because I was healthy. I didn't have cancer taking over my body. And so my reaction was, I wished I had a magic wand I could put over your head and release the cancer from you. And he says to me, That's not it. He said to me, Because you lived your life as a free spirit. And I was like, Oh my. My brother was probably the smartest of the three of us. He could have done anything he wanted in his life. He ended up in a field of law that was collections. He said, What did he do to put links in people's homes? He had the wealth, he had the fancy cars, he had the children, the grandchildren. I never pursued that, you know, but I had traveled the world, I had made many projects, you know, that filled my heart and hopefully helped others. And that I looked at him and I went, Oh my god, my brother was trapped, you know. He did what he was supposed to and was told to do.

SPEAKER_01:

And it sounds like in that moment when you're having this conversation with your brother, it's a very similar epiphany like you had with your mom when she was just a little girl, just seeing your little brother being trapped in this role, this generational trauma, this generational idea, what a boy was supposed to do at that time, and now he's on his deathbed, and he's like, Oh yeah, I missed my whole life. And it's a completely healing and coming back together of some sort for the two of you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So my light bulb moment with him was before then. So I mentioned I made this film, Look at Us Now, Mother. And we were emailing back and forth, and I was gonna go out to his house for a brunch. And I emailed, I'd like to have alone time with him. And he said, Why? Talking about my trauma, I have to go back to my parents and even go back another generation, you know, what happened to them and their parents. Because, you know, trauma's passed on from generation to generation, as we all know. So I had found these World War II love letters between my parents because I'm telling their story, and I wanted him to voice it. And he says to me, This is all email. I don't want to have anything to do with your movie. I'm sorry I did the interview. And I was beside myself because I was almost done with the film. I had all these backers, I had run two Kickstarters, and I made the film for one purpose to help people, not to vilify my mother or anybody in my family. And I didn't want to show it to anyone until I was done because, as a super hypersensitive person, I didn't want to be influenced by their opinion. I wanted to trust my instincts and whatever focus group I would put together. So, long story short, I went into a tailspin. I had relived my childhood illnesses. So when I lived at home, because I lived in a state of fight or flight, because I was constantly being abused and never knew why, it was irrational. I never knew what would trigger it. I had headaches constantly, I was throwing up constantly, and I had dizzy spells. And when I left home at 16, I stopped getting all of that. When that happened, I relived all that. And then people were telling me, oh, great, he'll sue you. You'll get publicity now. I said, that's not the publicity I want. And I was afraid to go out, and I decided I'm going out with a friend because he won't bully me in front of a friend. And we went out together. I brought the dozen bagels and I walked in, and there was a giant blow-up of him when he was 13, his bar mitzvah picture, like mounted on foam core. And I asked his girlfriend at the time, what is that there for? And she said, I don't know. And I'm like, you know, my brain's going, why would he want to show me this picture? I'm thinking, let's just do the bagels, talk about world affairs, and I want to leave afterwards. Well, things were going great. Now he invited us downstairs. So I knew downstairs is where the archive is, all the everything, right? He was born in 46 and he was the firstborn. And there was his baby book laid out. And as a genealogist and a documentarian, I was hemming and haunted. It was like so much great material. Because I don't even have a baby book. And there's my big brother, and he starts singing, I'm the prince. And he was singing it over and over. I'm the prince, I'm the prince. Your next movie's going to be about me. I remember on the way home in the car, my friend goes, Well, your brother's such a narcissist. And we was joking. I said, Well, he was the good one. And I'm thinking, I don't know what happened to my brother. You know, he was eight years older, but he is desperate for attention. That's what I needed to forgive him. And that was several years before he had passed. But when he said that to me, it just validated sadly that my brother, I don't know what he wanted in his life, but he obviously was trapped and do it, whatever it was.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for sharing that super poignant story. And wonderful that you got to that place, and that was again a portal into the forgiveness journey with him. And as you're going through this forgiveness with your family, with your mom, with your brother, do you see this like extrapolate out in your whole life where you're learning to forgive everyone in your whole life, no matter how far away they are from your family of origin? How does forgiveness play out in that way in your life?

SPEAKER_00:

I feel lucky because I think I am a forgiving person. You know, people are always amazed how something bad could happen to me and I don't get all riled up about it, you know. I think I tend to be a forgiving person, but believe me, I do have my strong emotions. I am very emotional. I could definitely unleash. Yeah, but I do feel, as I said, you know, I'll keep saying it, I feel like it's my superpower. I feel very lucky I have that. The ability to get there. And believe me, I have lost, you know, in our lives, I mean, I'm sure other people have lost friends, and I don't mean to death. And I'm not talking about partners, intimate partners, I'm talking about friendships, been dumped by friends, and it's been very painful to me. And there's nothing I can do, but they're not forgiving people. And so I've tried.

SPEAKER_01:

That makes sense. And in your experience with forgiveness, if one party isn't ready to forgive, can you still transform the relationship with your ability to be able to forgive because of the work you've done?

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. So here's the scoop. The one thing I hear often is I'm not going to forgive whoever that person is that has hurt them until they acknowledge that other person did something wrong to them and say they're sorry. And I say it's like getting angry at a blind person for not driving a car. They're incapable. You have to change your expectations of that person. And you're not forgiving for them, you're forgiving for yourself. So I forgave my mother years and years before she ever admitted she hurt me, before she ever admitted she did anything wrong. And it's so interesting because when she turned 99, we started getting a lot of fans on Instagram. And, you know, when you do that, you have to feed the monster, you have to keep putting out content, right? And so it was young Kipper. And in the Jewish religion, it's the Day of Atonement. And I said, Okay, mom, we need one on forgiveness. And she was stalling and stalling. I said, Well, just do our story. So she shot the video and she sent it to me. And I was so shocked. She talked about how she admitted on tape that she was a very harsh mother to me. And for that, she asked for my forgiveness. But she continues with saying, I know that Gail has forgiven me, but now I have to forgive myself. And I asked her why now. And actually, we have a book out. I put her book out last year, which are her tips on life and longevity. And the last one is forgive before you go. Don't die with regrets. Don't take it to the grave. And I said, Mom, why now? You know I've forgiven you. I mean, you've never acknowledged or admitted anything wrong, but I forgave you. And she says, I had. clean my own soul. She cleansed her own soul before she went.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow that that is super powerful and that she was actually able to get to that at her age and be able, you know, to be cognitive enough to communicate that in such a beautiful way. That's incredibly powerful.

SPEAKER_00:

Well I actually want to add something. As she heard me speak a lot about forgiveness because we do Q ⁇ A's, you know, after the movie, and she would be with me, you know, on the stage. She had a tough relationship with my brother who passed because he he would unleash his anger towards her and me. And she said that she used my steps, you know, I have steps to find forgiveness to work with her feelings towards him. And that made me feel really good.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. That's incredible. And what are your steps towards forgiveness?

SPEAKER_00:

So these are my seven steps to finding forgiveness. The first is understanding. Understand the person who's hurting you. So that means dig into their past. Do as much research as you could about their past. The next is create distance. It's very hard to do this work when you are living under the same roof with someone who's being very abusive to you. So in my case, I left home. I was 16, I went off to college. The other is create a support system. We can't do this alone. So that support system could consist of everything from getting an animal having a pet to daily practices, joining communities of like-minded people, a spiritual community. And then forgive. So once you get to that spot where you have now created you understand who they are you create a distance you create a support system you can feel compassion for this person. You reframed how you look at them and you forgive them. Now you change your behavior towards them. So when I mentioned I stopped reacting cowering yelling I changed my behavior towards them then let it out. You're not alone this is your story. We all have a story. Put it out this is something really important I've seen a lot of people get disappointed. Each of us are gifted in different ways. I always say if my friend is like moving and they need help, you know, packing boxes and carrying them don't call me. But if you need help with emotional stuff I'm the friend to call. So let it out to the people who are the right people we were talking about secrets don't keep it in but you have to find the right people to share with and then spin a negative into a positive and be creative. So however it is write create put it out there it's your story nobody else's story. There's nothing more healing than journaling is very very healing. Do you know John Sarno he's long gone you remember his story? Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

So he came to the conclusion that what's happening in people's bodies is repress rage. Start journaling.

SPEAKER_01:

Journaling is a wonderful tool and I I love your seven steps and we'll make sure to put this in the show notes also and I heard creating distance building a support system and finding the right people to talk to because some people are going to be able to hear the A's and some people be able to hear the B's and actually having those different people and those different resources sounds like it was incredibly important in your journey and I love the creative outlet and getting that stuff out of your body through journaling singing dancing whatever the creative outlet has to be is is incredibly important to move through that. And as you've been working on this relationship with your mom and I know it took a long time from you forgiving her to her getting to the place of forgiving you and articulating that how did you continuously build little bridges for yourself to be able to have enough willpower to keep coming back and keep the construction going.

SPEAKER_00:

Willpower I think it was just a drive you know I wanted to heal myself it's all my memoir now that's coming out I mean it was one horrible thing after the next I was a pin cushion you know and they were just sticking it in me you know those dolls you get in hating you stick the pins in I felt like one of those dolls and I was just getting constantly pricked and bleeding and I knew that I had to change it had to be me. I couldn't change anybody else.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And that's what I'm hearing you saying that it wasn't really about your mother it was about repairing your relationship with your mother but it wasn't about her it was about you taking care of yourself, healing yourself forgiving yourself so you're able to have relationships with other people was ultimately what the journey's about.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And I'm still working on it. You know there are good days there are bad days. Currently I'm single I think okay you know now I have made it my mission to take care of my mom and I don't have much bandwidth between that and my work. But yeah I think okay you know there's going to come a time I'm going to want to bring love into my life again. It's been a long time.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah that makes a lot of sense. And then with your mom like what you just said is it's not linear. Some days are really good and you're feeling really connected and it feels like it's really easy to see each other and some days get cloudy and that changes too, right? So you just keep moving through these different phases and maybe the window stays open a little bit longer as you move along the path.

SPEAKER_00:

Well you know it's funny because I'm under the roof with her now and I'm really the roles are somewhat reversing because she's 102 and she is remarkable for her age but there's a lot she cannot do anymore. She's a force to be reckoned with she's very independent very opinionated and actually we have a lot of similar traits except I'm extremely sensitive. She's very intelligent but low on the EQ and I'm very high on the EQ. So no I know I need to get out you know I say I found my happy place this library and I escaped to the library I have cameras all over the house. So I know when I need to deal with my mental health and I need to just get out of this space you know and I need to do something that's going to help me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah I gotta say like you got a gold star for being under the same roof and actually stepping into the commitment to be a it sounds like the primary caregiver. I'm like I love my mom and I'm like good for two nights. You know what I mean? And I can't stay in the same house right now. It's just too much.

SPEAKER_00:

It's definitely huge. I feel that it's my mission. I'm on a mission I can't leave her you know I feel like she's my responsibility maybe it's the child I never had I don't know maybe she's my child now. A lot of fans say oh you're giving her life and she did thank me for her twilight years because she's still a very resilient person. I think that's a big key to her longevity and she's still curious about life. It's just like physically her body is slowed down. So everything's a big deal for her. She gets exhausted very quickly. You know I joked that we're Thelma and Louise all right mom where do you want to go tonight? And she's like the happy hour queen of South Florida is like the happy hour capital of the world. So you know she never wants to miss a happy hour and yeah I'll go to a library and work and it's like Gail don't forget where are we going for happy hour? And she walks in, she parades in with her walker and she now wears her age like a badge of honor. Yeah I took her on over the last two years four cruises. We just did one last month. Yeah they couldn't do enough for her how they celebrated her birthday. It was just her 102nd on August 25th I did like three parties it was one really big party. So it just brings me joy and I feel like you know I wind her up and she goes out. Like I give her things to look forward to and you know in many ways we do have similar trades. I have a huge wanderlust and she too they traveled all over in fact they traveled so much she opened up a travel agency. This is way before the internet. So you know as a travel agent back in the day they got a lot of benefits and I came through the womb with a wanderlust. So when my father died in 2006 interestingly enough one of my movies was invited to Avion France. I was here helping her transition to being alone because my father had just died and when I got that invite and she goes I'll come with you and I had not worked on the relationship then and I'm like gulp how do I say no because she's lost her travel partner my father and I know she loves to travel. And I just didn't want to disappoint her. So I said yes and then the entire family thought we'll come back never speaking it was also a big turning point in our relationship because she came to my world you know and in fact it's so funny because they did travel quite a bit around the world but in the way the kind of Americans that would stay at the Hilton's and the Ritz's or you know the big American hotel chains and stuff. And now she was with me and this is years before Airbnb so we were at BB's and it was a whole new experience for her. And then we went to India twice we traveled all over my father never wanted to go to India.

SPEAKER_01:

She got an elephant she's been henetted you know so she would always take the back roads I take the back roads so in many ways we're similar you know it's a beautiful story when you tell me about happy hour and traveling with your mother and at 102 you're doing cruises and you're it sounds super active and super healing and I can see why so many people are fascinated with your journey and love to celebrate what you two are going through. That's super cool. Yeah I can't imagine my mom at 102 you know traveling like that that's beautiful gives me some hope. You wrote your new book which is Bullied to besties about you and your mom. What can you tell us about the book and when it's coming out and how we get it and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's my memoir called Bully to Besties A Daughter's journey to forgiveness. It is currently available in pre-order for paperback and Kindle on Amazon and then the audio version will be out soon. We're going to launch in New York October 5th is the first book launch at PT Network Books and then October 8th at bibliothek. I'll be coming down to Florida and we'll be doing a book tour here. So the best way is I have a link where people can sign up to be on the mailing list. And when they sign up to be on the mailing list they'll be in the no.

SPEAKER_01:

Sounds fantastic. And if you were talking to someone out there in the community that's listening today like right now like what would be your golden kernel and say do this today as a starting point or do these two things today as a starting point to start launching your journey of forgiveness.

SPEAKER_00:

They have to go back to the source of who's the person that hurt them the most you have to go back to probably your childhood in a primary relationship. And then you have to dig into that person's past. And often people say I can't you know everyone's gone or dead. You have to do the best you could you know there's a lot of records out there. And if you can't or don't want to you have to start reframing how you look at that person and just conclude whatever they went through must have been horrific because if they are went and hurt you and abused you, it is a product of what happened to them.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. That's some great advice and as we're getting here closer to the end of the interview like what other message what piece do you feel like we haven't spoken about what else do you feel like you'd like to share with the audience before we say goodbye for today.

SPEAKER_00:

For me it just does go back to how do you find forgiveness? You have to feel the other person. You have to get into a state of what did they go through? I'm gonna just tell you something very brief. I did a talk back after a screening of my film. There was a gentleman there he was running the film festival with his wife he missed the film he heard my talk the next day he came running in looking for me and he says I have to tell you what happened. I heard you speak I was out shopping in a supermarket and this woman went crazy not just on me. She just went nuts and he remembered when I said heard people hurt people and what they really need is love. And he went over and he expressed kindness to her when she was raging and she started to cry and hugged him and she said nobody is ever kind to me and as he's telling me the story his eyes are welling up. The key is to show kindness smile at a person every day I will say after October 7th there was so much division and I just felt so bad. I started something on social media called Hug a Stranger a day and I'm so convinced that if everyone got a hug a day there would be less violence in this world that we all need love. Everybody needs love no matter how rich and famous a person is we all need love. So show kindness and love to one person a day smile at them if you feel comfortable hug them give them a compliment nice dress nice top your hair look show even just a smile and you know what it won't only make their day it'll make your day.

SPEAKER_01:

What a beautiful way to wrap up here kindness love give a hug Gail thank you so much for coming out for the conversation we're gonna have all your information in the show notes links on how to get it on the email address we'll have the pre-order for your book there. Again thank you love your story love the journey that you and your mom are on at this stage of her life in the stage of your development and the next chapter you're moving into is super super cool and thanks for taking the time to come out and chat with us.

SPEAKER_00:

And thank you it was wonderful.

SPEAKER_01:

Well what an interesting show and what a cool lens and definitely a different cadence for the show but I love that Gail's doing this stuff with her mother at 102 years old and they're on this journey together. They're working this out and they're doing it in a very social atmosphere I think that's beautiful and I'm thinking I'm 102 I hope I'm excited about going a happy hour or traveling or going on cruises. I think that's marvelous and it's a testament to forgiveness. Like could we have these relationships would family members not be around because there's just too much trauma and heartache and pain that hasn't been worked through at an older more mature age with less resources. I think it's just such a great lesson. And thanks for coming out and listen please like comment share all Gail's information is in the show notes. I'd love to hear your comments and again a little bit different kind of cadence in the show love the show hate the show want more want less we'd love to hear what you have to say thanks for coming out to play in the sandbox with me today and if no one's told you today I love you and let's go with Gail's thing kindness a compliment to someone offer a hug you know let's go out in the world and maybe just love one extra person just for today. So with that I will see you around the neighborhood take care. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode if so please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring growing and healing journey I will see you on our next episode. Until then happy days to all