Family Disappeared

Unconscious Alienation: Time is the Enemy in High-Conflict Custody with Lisa Johnson Part 2 - Episode 118

• Lawrence Joss

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In this conversation, parental alienation expert Lisa Johnson discusses the complexities of navigating custody battles and the impact of communication on children. She emphasizes the importance of building a support team, understanding the role of time in legal proceedings, and the necessity of setting firm boundaries. Lisa also shares strategies for strengthening parent-child bonds and developing critical thinking skills in children to help them navigate conflicting messages from parents. The discussion highlights the importance of community support and resources available for parents facing these challenges.

Key Takeaways

  • Planting poisonous messages can harm children's perception of safety.
  • Complicity in parenting plans can be used against you in court.
  • Setting firm boundaries is essential for healthy parenting.
  • Developing critical thinking skills in children is vital.
  • Children need to feel they have control and agency.
  • Positive memories with children can counteract negative messaging.
  • Community support is invaluable for parents in high-conflict cases.
  • Legal systems can provide tools, but cannot fix relationships.

Chapters

00:00 Episode 118 Lisa Johnson Pt 2
29:02 Understanding Parental Alienation
31:49 The Impact of Communication on Children
35:02 The Role of Time in Custody Battles
37:43 Building a Support Team
40:51 Navigating Complicity in Parenting Plans
43:44 Establishing Strong Bonds with Children
46:54 Developing Critical Thinking Skills in Kids
49:44 Resources and Support for Parents
52:57 Final Thoughts and Community Support

If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:

Email - familydisappeared@gmail.com
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/lawrencejoss
(All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)

Connect with Lisa Johnson: https://beentheregotout.com/⁩

Strategies for Running Your High-Conflict Case Like a Business - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNL81Gr-Dbg

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This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

SPEAKER_01:

You don't say to your kid, if you don't feel safe at your father's house or your mother's house, you can call me because that part of it is planting a poisonous message. You're putting an idea in a child's head that maybe there's something unsafe. If you just said something like in general to your kids, whenever you don't feel safe, you can call me. That's fine. But that's very different from suggesting that there's something wrong with the other parent.

SPEAKER_00:

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually, and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode, we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. Hi, my name is Lawrence Joss, and welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. Today we have the second part of the podcast with Lisa Johnson, who is a parental alienation strategist and expert. And I don't know if she calls herself an expert, but I am. Has a tremendous amount of technology, experience, connections, and is really providing a full system to help people move through their parental alienation cases, especially when they're super complex, and especially when they include physical and emotional abuse. So really, really wonderful resource. I love the interview, and I think you're gonna get a kick out of it too. And if you're new to the community, welcome. If you're just popping into the second episode and you haven't listened to the first, please go back and listen to the first. Contextually, you might miss some really important stuff. And welcome and welcome to people that have been around a while and bunch of stuff in the show notes. Check it out. All Lisa's information is going to be in the show notes too, and the different things she's talking about in the show. And at the end of the show, she'll let you know how to get the free webinar on uh strategic thinking and communication, which is wonderful. And you can always reach us with any comments at family disappeared at gmail.com. And remember to like, share, tell us when we're doing something right. Tell us when you want more of something, and we need that feedback, you know. Otherwise, we're just in this kind of like this loop of throwing stuff out there and we don't necessarily hear. And we are a 501c3 nonprofit. There's a donate button in the show notes. We'd love to have your support if that is available. Okay, let's get into the show. I remember with my oldest daughter, no matter what was going on when she was going to school, or she was going on a trip, or she was going to the doctor where there was my time, where it wasn't my time, I never got the opportunity to do any of those things alone with her. Her mom always insisted that she be there. And at the time it seemed okay. It seemed like I was just trying to do the right thing and get along, and then everything would be okay. And what was happening is that I was being positioned as potentially being unsafe or not really going to show up or not gonna love her as much or not help her transition these different places easily because she was incredibly, incredibly anxious. And a lot of that anxiety came from the messaging that I didn't even know existed. You know, I remember my ex used to send messages all the time with, you know, only three days until you get back home. I'm always here, this is your real home, and stuff like that that just seemed like, hey, she was missing her child. That was my perspective at the time. And what I've come to learn is that was all just kind of like this really deep programming over and over and over again until it becomes a reality. I really regret not understanding that, and I really regret not having really firm boundaries and taking my time and insisting and not taking the availability of jumping into the legal system to get some of those agreements met, you know. So I just want to say if you're in those positions and you're trying to be the good parent and you're kind of wavering on that edge, you know, some of us have had different experiences that we regret, and maybe our experiences are useful, and they have to be contextualized in your life too. You know what I mean? What I'm saying might not apply, and what I'm saying might be something for you to watch out for. So with this conversation for Lisa, it feels really alive in my body, and I wanted to make sure I was really explicit about what that had looked like in my experience. And yep, let's see what Lisa has to say on the second part of the show. When dealing with parents and folks that are in this really combative divorce, acrimonious, you know, custody stuff. Do you identify unconscious alienating behaviors on both sides, even with your clients, if they're feeling like they're being alienated? And what could that possibly look like?

SPEAKER_01:

So the unconscious behaviors, like our clients are domestic violence victims, like the men and women. But a lot of times we have to say, you know, you you can't do that. Like that's not okay because that can be turned on you in court, and it's also not good for your children because you're basically not supporting their relationship with the other parent. So I remember I made a video like a couple of years ago about like things you never want to say to your child, especially in the midst of a divorce or custody battle. And one of them is like, sweetie, if you ever don't feel safe at the other parent's house, you can call me. And I got all kinds of flag, like, why would you say such a thing? My child should be able to call me whenever they don't feel safe. And I said, Of course. But that's not what I said. I said, you don't say to your kid if you don't feel safe at your father's house or your mother's house, you can call me because that part of it is planting a poisonous message. You're putting an idea in a child's head that maybe there's something unsafe. Like, why would there be something wrong at the other parent's house? If you just said something like in general to your kids, whenever you don't feel safe, you can call me. That's fine. But that's very different from suggesting that there's something wrong with the other parent, which would make the child feel like, should I be watching? Do I have to be hypervigilant? Like, why would my other parents say that? People don't realize that they do things like that. Or even I was interviewing a former family court judge the other day, and she said, one mistake that people make all the time is calling their child at the other parent's house and being like, Are you okay? Are you okay? Why wouldn't they be okay? That's not saying something straight out, but it's insinuating that there's something that's not okay. And so a child picks up on that energy is like, I should be careful. I don't really know why, but my other parent is really scared and I'm absorbing that.

SPEAKER_00:

Totally. Yeah, I'm planting those seeds over and over again, day by day, definitely builds up and will create that separation and distance, whether it's a note, text, email, conversation, and you're saying body language from a distance. So that's super useful. And in your book, you write that time is the enemy. Why does waiting almost always make things worse? And waiting for what? Like what you know, can you contextualize that a bit too?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so for example, because Chris and I do like a lot of the stuff on the legal end and how to build a persuasive case in court, one of the first signs of when you need to really jump on it legally is if your ex is not following the parenting schedule. If they're blocking contact and communication, if you're not getting your court order time or your agreed upon time, and there's always some reason where it's not like a once-in-a-while thing, but it's like, oh, somehow I'm supposed to see the kids every weekend and I'm not anymore. And my ex always has some excuse. You need to jump on that because things take time in the legal system and time lost, you can't get back. And so often people will delay and delay and delay. And that's what's so frustrating because time is passing, you're missing out on all these milestones with your kid, and you can't rush. Like evaluations can take months. Sometimes they can take a year, and you're just sitting there waiting, or somebody makes false accusations against you. And then the judge has to say, okay, we can't, you know, we got to keep the kid away. Like whether there's a restraining order, there's some kind of supervised visitation. And so time is passing, and you're like, this is so unfair. Like I didn't do anything, but you have to wait to get before someone to really explain what's going on. And that's why time's the enemy.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like we're always hoping that things are going to change or the other person's gonna do the right thing and everything will get resolved, and then time passes, and then we get stuck in a really crappy vortex, is what I'm hearing you say.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and then and then you become more of a stranger to your child. The more time you're away from them, the more time they have to absorb whatever's happening on the other side and just not know you as well. It doesn't always happen. Like we just talked to a guy the other day, he hadn't seen his kids for a year. And finally, I mean, CPS had gotten involved. They ran to him, three kids different ages, and they were like, We missed you, you know, they remembered him and everything. But it had been a full year of not seeing these kids.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that is heartbreaking. And as you're talking about what you and your partner do and the coaching and the support and stuff like that, do you add other members to the team to support these different folks? Like, what does building a team around this whole conflict look like, you know, from your perspective?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, so we always talk about, we talked about it in our first book, about how these high conflict cases require a team of support. Unfortunately, a lot of us make the mistake that my lawyer knows everything, and so my lawyer is the person I'm gonna rely on to ask all the questions to. Lawyers are not trained to be therapists, and often they find themselves in that role. So we talk about it as if like a client is the surface of a table and they need a certain amount of legs to be as stable as possible. So one of the legs we say is friends and family. So, friends and family, if you haven't been completely isolated, and a lot of people in our community have been, or they come from toxic families of origin, friends and family, if they're there, they love you and they support you, but they don't really understand. And people will say things that can make you feel worse, like, well, why don't you just this, or oh, you should just get over it, or just give up and move on. Or the opposite is like, you should make sure your ex goes to jail. And it's like completely unrealistic, you know, and you're dealing with their emotions as well as yours. Also, in these alienation cases, there's something called hatred by association. I'm not sure if you know that that term, but when a child rejects a parent, they often reject everyone associated with that parent. So that's called hatred by association. So they will cut off not just the target parent, but the grandparents, friends that that person has. People who have been part of that child's life get discarded as well. So the family and friends is part of the team. Hopefully they can be there, but they're dealing with their own anguish because often they've been part, they've been victimized as well by being cut off by the child and they can't understand because they're like, What did I do? I'm not even part of this. Then another person on your team is a lawyer, but like I said, a lawyer is not trained as a therapist. Their job is just to be your ally and your advocate and translate your case into the law. And asking your lawyer questions about a lot of alienation issues usually runs up lots of money, and often many lawyers are not experienced with it. So it's important to find resources that truly understand alienation. So the next leg in the table is a therapist or a domestic violence advocate, and especially for someone dealing with alienation, like an alienation coach. And we have a good friend named Charlie McCready in the UK. He's been through this himself. His wife has been through it, you know, for two decades. So he he helps people with this very specific topic. And then, of course, you know, if you're dealing with a divorce, you've got like your real estate and financial people. But then the other leg is people like Chris and I, who we we say we kind of fill the gap between what lawyers are not trained to do and therapists don't understand because we are so schooled in the family court system. And so we connect people to a lot of resources who do know more than we do. Like we have lawyers that are experts in alienation that I'm not, I don't always suggest you hire this person, but if you have a lawyer who does not understand it, that lawyer needs to talk to a lawyer who's effectively litigated alienation cases so they can teach your lawyer what to do. And one of our friendly colleagues named Ashish Joshi, who's in Michigan, he's a specialist in alienation. So he often will meet with our clients and their attorneys together for like an hour or two to go through strategies of how to build an effective case in court because that's that's like all he does. He's a domestic violence attorney who specializes in alienation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I love the idea of the building a team, and I think it's incredibly important between the therapist and the additional support and support group and all those other cases, and that you do have resources like other Sheesh Joshi, I think you said his name was like he's out there to help you advocate for yourself, even with your own attorney, to add layers of education and support, because all attorneys haven't done everything and you need something specific. So I love I love the team building, I love the team idea, I love the support and reaching out to different folks that are the really, really seasoned in their particular lane. That's a wonderful point. You also write about doing nothing, which we kind of talked about a little bit, but in your book you said something that's interpreted by the court as being complicit.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so I think you might be talking about like when somebody is doing a schedule, maybe like a parenting plan. So the thing I'm thinking about, a mistake that a lot of people make and that attorneys have told us people make, is like I said, when your ex doesn't follow the parenting plan, that's a bad sign because they're pulling the kids away from you, unless it's like a once-in-a-while thing and you're swapping. I'm talking about like a pattern of behavior where you are not seeing your kids as often as you're supposed to be seeing them. So when your ex is not following the parenting plan and saying things like, well, you know, our child has this other activity or they want to be with their friends this weekend, and you agree regularly and give up your parenting time. And again, I'm not talking about being an agreeable relationship where like both parents are making sure that the kids have contact. I only deal with the extremely unhealthy cases. So where you're basically being manipulated to give up your parenting time and you say, Oh, that's okay, that's okay, that's okay. You cannot go back and argue that your ex has blocked your contact with the kids because you were complicit. You agreed to that. If you agree to the parenting plan changing, you're giving up your access time. And that can be used against you. You can't then say, Oh, I didn't want it. So that's something to really think about. It's not like unfortunately, parents are sometimes put in an impossible position because the other parent will say, Well, you know, I want you to be able to go. I know it's their parenting time, but if if they won't let you go, I, you know, I don't want to, I don't know what to tell you. And then you feel like the bad guy because your kid wants to do something else. And that's why it's tricky to explain to kids like this is happening every single weekend. You know, I value my time with you. I want you to have fun with your friends or do your activities or whatever it is, but you know, you deserve time too with your kid.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And the nuance of the complicit from a parent trying to be a good person or take the high road or do the right thing is not a privilege that we necessarily have in the high conflict arenas. Like you need to stand up for your time. And I know for me, I'd make that mistake over and over and over again and didn't learn the impact that that mistake had for several years. But when I actually, the consequences of the impact of me not having a really firm boundary, you know, was was quite, quite devastating for everyone involved, including my kids. And I think that's a point that a lot of parents don't understand. You're trying to be a good person, but the lack of boundaries is actually has a really negative impact on the children.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. There's a friend of ours, her name is Marit, and she and her husband have something called blended family frappe. And they do they work with a lot of blended families and stepparents and step children. And she, when we did an interview, she talked about how her husband, his daughter, lived a bit long distance and he was supposed to have her for the summers, but she had gotten really involved with, I don't remember what sport it was, but some kind of thing where she wanted to do her sport. And so she was missing big chunks of time with her father because of this activity. And his ex was like, Well, you know, I can't do anything about it, whatever. And so Mart and her husband decided to put firm boundaries and say, you know what, like we respect that you're doing this thing, but we're not gonna let it interfere with our time. Like family matters too. So we do have to stick to the schedule for a certain part of the summer because you know, this is important as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow, that's super cool. It's nice to hear those victories, and it sounds like it was a positive outcome by having that boundary.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm yeah, but I'm sure the daughter was mad.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my god, my kids would have lit the house on fire.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00:

And it would have been worth it. In retrospect, it would have been better to have the house burned down than to not have a boundary and not be able to actually work with some of the stuff in a more direct, succinct way. So, yeah, no, I I appreciate that story. What are some other pivotal parts of your book in the second book that you're writing that you think are really important for folks to know that you might want to talk to a little bit? Is there anything in specifically that just jumps out at you?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I mean, the book really gets into what you can do legally and what you can do outside of court. And so often people will say, I don't know what I can do. You know, I've tried in the court system, nobody's paying attention. And you think about how the court is really limited to what it can do for you. It can give you time or money, it can give you therapy, like you can ask for reunification therapy, you can ask for sanctions, you can ask for all kinds of things, but the court can't make your child connect with you again. They can give you tools, but they can't fix it themselves. And so the key with any of this alienation stuff is to really nip it in the bud early before it becomes really, really bad, and that there's you have nothing that you can do other than just keep trying and trying and trying and hoping that things turn around. So that's why it's important to really understand what's going on. And there's a term that our friend Charlie McCready has coined called prealienation, where he talks about things while you're still in the relationship to pay attention to that might indicate that your ex is going to try to do this. And I noticed in my own situation, because I I had never heard and Charlie made up the term prealienation, but things that my ex would do that that indicated that something was a bit off, and often it's when your spouse or your partner kind of ridicules you to the children and undermines your authority, makes like really nasty jokes about you as if you're ridiculous or stupid or deficient in some way. When you're with somebody who does that with the kids, like that's a really bad sign. And so that's the kind of thing to start paying attention to and to start documenting properly. We have clients who are still, they haven't filed for a divorce yet or they're still living in the same home. And their spouse has already alienated the kids from them because the spouse senses that there's going to be a divorce and they're already trying to win the full loyalty of the kids. So you want to really pay attention to what's happening before filing and to try to start therapy with the kids. But more importantly, besides therapy, I think it's really all about establishing very strong bonds as early as possible, and even if it hasn't happened until now, there's something we call the 10-minute rule. And I interviewed a psychologist in our local school system about it. Her name is Dr. Alina Boye, and she said that kids want two things more than anything control and attention, just like little narcissists. So she said, if you have 10 minutes a day, you do something where your child, no matter what age they are, they lead and you do whatever it is they want. You give them your undivided attention and say, like, teach me how what you're doing. Even if it's a video game, even if you think it's ridiculous, you show that you are completely committed to them, to valuing what they think is important. And that makes them less likely to fall prey to an ex's or a partner's negative messages about you because you're developing memories with that kid that are positive, where the kid sees that you really are capable of paying attention because people who behave like this, poisonous parents, they're not really capable of love or joy the way that human beings are, the rest of us are. And they can't really give their full attention because everything is kind of about them in some way. So you're gonna contrast that by building these memories. Like with my kids, I didn't even realize what I was doing. But every day we'd walk the dog to school or walk the dog to the bus stop. So we had time together where even if we were arguing, sometimes we wouldn't walk next to each other, but we always had this ritual of like doing this thing every single day together. And I think back when I was growing up, even though my parents didn't get divorced, how my father every weekend would like walk down to the supermarket with me to get the newspaper and like taking those walks every weekend, and then like we go for ice cream together, like building those memories. That's the thing that solidifies relationships. Because even when you're with somebody who's you know trying to alienate the kids, not every kid is as likely to be brainwashed as others. And so much is about you making sure you have those memories with your kids, making your kids feel like they have some agency in their lives. So another thing to do, depending on the age of your kids, is to plan something, like to say we've got this this weekend coming up, like there's this, I don't know, some festival or some event or some concert, something that they might be interested in, be like, can you help plan it? Or do you want to plan it so that they feel like they have some control over something? And then you celebrate together. You do whatever it is, even if it's not an event, but like making a dinner. Let's do something. What do you want to do? Teach me how to cook this. You're so good at making garlic bread. You know, help me show me how to do it. Like where kids feel like they're in charge and you actually care, that makes a difference.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's some wonderful advice, you know, what to do outside of the court system because you're so locked into the court system and the law and time and lack of access, but to actually take some agency. Do you have any pieces of advice like that as the kids start to get older or again into the like the young adulthood?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. The most important thing with kids in this situation is teaching them to develop critical thinking skills. You want your kids to be able to question, to question what they're dealing with, because they're dealing with a parent that's basically trying to alter reality. And so as early as possible, you want them to be able to say no or to ask why, even though sometimes kids like that can be very challenging to parent. And I say this because I had one myself. It's very like defiant. But getting your kids involved with debate, older kids is really, really important because it forces them to be able to see things from different sides and to research and to consider the source. So we have this friend who happens to be a singer as well as an author named Tyra Juliet, and she wrote a book called The Sky is Red. And in it, and this is for little kids, but you can adjust it for older kids, where you play a game with kids where like you'll deliberately say something that you know is not true, like the sky is red. And you look at the kid and you want the kid to be like, No, it's not. If the kid doesn't say it, you need to like say, Do you really think that's red? Like, is that red? Like, show me what else is red. But you want a kid to say that's not true and to not be afraid to say, I don't know why you're saying that, because that's what they're dealing with in a different level with a parent. So you have to be able to say, I don't understand, you know, I don't know why they would say such a thing. Like, just because it's an adult and just because it's my parent saying this doesn't mean that it's necessarily true. And it's scary to question, but you want your kid to learn to question. So working on critical thinking skills, especially with teenagers, getting them involved in debate, very, very useful.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I love that practical idea and the critical thinking idea because just in the regular development of the brain, critical thinking isn't coming fully on board until you're in your mid-30s or early 30s. But to actually teach the kids this. And I see my sister doing this with her children who are super bright and question way too much. But again, questioning way too much is better, you know, on that side of the bell curve than on the side of the bell curve where you don't have the ability to even have that conversation. So I love that as a suggestion and also breaking it down from a really simple developmental standpoint and being able to adjust it to older kids. As we're kind of like winding down over here, I know we're gonna put links to you and to any of your books or offerings or anything in the show notes so people have access to you. Is there anything else you'd like to share that you might be doing or might be offering that might be useful to uh people in the community?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so you know, we mentioned like we do coaching and the strategy sessions. We have the weekly legal abuse support group. We also have this series of online courses. We released one and we're gonna do the alienation one hopefully next sometime in the next couple of months. But this course that we have is on strategic communication that we do more than everything with everyone. It basically builds the basis of your case, but it also gets your ex's voice out of your head. And so it's called How to Communicate with Your Ex without destroying your case or losing your mind. It's part of our From Fear to Fierce in Family Court education program. So that's that's what's out now. So I can give you the link to that. We have like a free webinar, and my partner Chris plays a little game show host and part of it because we like to use humor. But like I said, the next one will be it'll match the book. It'll be like how to handle when your ex turns the kids against you. So that's gonna be a few hours long and also go very deeply into strategies you can use in and out of court.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that. I love the building the basis on communication and strategic thinking and how to actually navigate that because as you're saying, it's a foundation for everything. If you don't have that, you're gonna step in a bunch of different things.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and that's a great way to start documenting alienating behaviors.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that. I love that. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come out and chat for a couple minutes. I love the work that you're doing and how you're supporting the community and how robust the process is that you're working and all the different people. It sounds like you're connected to that. Sound like incredible resources for the people that you work with. So thank you so much for that.

SPEAKER_01:

No, my pleasure, and thank you as well for the work that you do.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. I appreciate it. And thank you. And I hope you have a beautiful day, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01:

You too.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. Wow, wow, wow. You know, I love how resourced Lisa is in her communications, how many different people she knows, how many different people she cites in the interview. It's not like she is this person that has all this information. She's actually resourcing herself with all these other people that have all this different information so she can provide the best service possible to her clients and the most informative books. And I think that's great because we can't do everything. And what she's role modeling is is our attorney doesn't know everything and can't do everything, or our whatever stakeholder doesn't know everything and can't do everything. So having a really concise team educating ourselves, and some of the stuff must probably take a good amount of resources, but also just being aware of it and then starting to resource ourselves a little bit through some of the AI and other technology that's out there is available. But I really appreciate her bringing in all these other different people into the conversation because we are a community, we can't do this alone, and for so many of us that tried to do this alone for so many years, it just was painful and isolating and impossible. So this kind of conversation is incredibly important and gives me hope for people that are in new stages for this and also people that are struggling with this and haven't found a path forward. Yeah, it is an arduous journey, but there are paths. Just knowing that there are paths definitely gives me some relief and some hope. And thanks for coming out to play in the yard today. Please like, share, let us know what's going on. You can always email at us at family disappeared at gmail.com. Please donate if you have the resources. We are a 501c3 nonprofit, and we'd love to bring you more programming and more trainings. Really, the trainings I think are going to be our big push because in those trainings, just learning to communicate a little bit differently is life-changing. And with that, I hope you have a beautiful day. I love you. If no one's told you that yet today, I love you. And if someone's told you that yet today, I still love you. And I love me, and I think that's one of the greatest gifts is learning to love myself again so I can show up in these environments and be of service. So have a beautiful day, and we'll see you around the neighborhood. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappeared Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring, growing, and healing journey. I will see you on our next episode. Until then, happy days to all.