Family Disappeared

False Allegations & High-Conflict Mediation w/ Matthew Brickman Part 2 - Ep124

• Lawrence Joss

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Lawrence Joss continues his conversation with Matthew Brickman, a Supreme Court Certified Mediator in Florida. They delve into the intricacies of mediation, discussing its purpose, the role of mediators, and how to select the right one. Matthew shares insights from his extensive experience, emphasizing the importance of continuous learning and personal growth in the field of mediation. The conversation also touches on the emotional aspects of conflict resolution and the significance of empowering individuals during the mediation process.

Key Takeaways

  • Mediation provides a structured environment for conflict resolution.
  • The transition from emotional to business-like relationships is crucial in mediation.
  • Understanding the four Ds of conflict: dismissed, disrespected, disvalued, disenfranchised.
  • Mediation is often mandatory before court proceedings in many states.
  • Choosing the right mediator involves research and personal fit.
  • Continuous education and experience are vital for effective mediation.
  • Mediators should empower clients to navigate their conflicts.
  • High conflict situations often require separate rooms during mediation.
  • Mediation can save time and money compared to court proceedings.
  • Personal growth and emotional intelligence are essential in conflict resolution.

Chapters
0:39 - Introducing Matthew Brickman
1:49 - Community and Resources for Parents
2:02 - Owning Mistakes and Elevating Kids
4:24 - What Mediation Is and Isn’t
6:27 - From Romance to Business: Kid Inc
8:50 - The Four D’s of Conflict
10:49 - States, Statutes, and Mandatory Mediation
13:43 - Why Courts Push Mediation
16:05 - With or Without Attorneys
20:03 - Neutrality, Bias, and Trust
22:08 - How to Choose a Mediator
31:16 - Continuous Learning and Fit

If you wish to connect with Lawrence Joss or any of the PA-A community members who have appeared as guests on the podcast:

Email - familydisappeared@gmail.com
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/lawrencejoss
(All links mentioned in the podcast are available in Linktree)

Connect with Matthew Brickman:
https://ichatmediation.com/⁩

Please donate to support PAA programs:
https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=SDLTX8TBSZNXSsa bottom part

This podcast is made possible by the Family Disappeared Team:
Anna Johnson- Editor/Contributor/Activist/Co-host
Glaze Gonzales- Podcast Manager

Connect with Lawrence Joss:
Website: https://parentalalienationanonymous.com/
Email- familydisappeared@gmail.com

SPEAKER_00:

So mediation is a place where people can come and for the first time ever in their relationship, they transition out of an emotional relationship into a business-like relationship where we are going to be two CEOs of a company. The company is Kid Inc. And for the first time ever, there's going to be rules, accountability, responsibility, and consequence. The rules for mom are the same as dad. Everyone's on an even playing field when it comes to rules. And when there's boundaries and rules, you can breathe because you know what you're allowed to do and not allowed to do. And there's also consequence.

SPEAKER_01:

There was a time in my life when I was overwhelmed and underwater. Those days are the inspiration for this podcast. This is by far the ultimate healing journey for all of us. Healing ourselves emotionally, spiritually, and physically is paramount to this journey. From this place of grounding, we can all go out into the world and change all our interactions and relationships. We can engage people from an integrated and resourced place. This is a journey of coming home to ourselves. In today's episode, we'll start to explore some of these issues. Let's begin the healing journey today. Welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. Welcome to the Family Disappeared Podcast. My name is Lawrence Joss, and it's great to have you here with us today. And today we have the second part of the interview with Matthew Brickman, who is a Supreme Court certified mediator in the state of Florida. Some wonderful stories and information. And if you missed the first episode, I'd highly suggest going back to listen to that first as Matthew shared his story with false allegations and what it was like, how he got through it, and what his life looks like today. And this episode just continues that conversation. And there's some wonderful advice on how to pick a mediator. He talks about what mediation is, what mediation isn't, and also more about his experience and how he got through the process and what his life looks like today. And it's always great to talk to Matthew. So thank you for coming out today. If you're new to the community, again, welcome. Great resources in the show notes. We have a free 12-step program, Parental Alienation Anonymous. It's a great place to build community, do some interpersonal work, and any community. If this doesn't work for you, please go out and find community. It's one of the main pillars of how I've been able to move through parental alienation. And it's been incredibly healing to meet other people that can understand what I'm talking about and understand the language. Please email me at family disappeared at gmail.com. Any questions, comments, suggestions, or just to say hello, like, share, let folks know what we're doing over here. Let's get into the second part of the interview. I wish I would have known what I know today about going through the process, about the legal system, about attorneys, about the amount of money spent, and also about my behavior and how my behavior could affect my children. And just going through this interview with Matthew and with so many of the other interviews, I feel like all my stuff started to churn up and different ways I could have shown up as a parent. And those times that I rolled my eyes or I tried to convince my kids that their mom was doing something that wasn't morally or ethically okay, and trying to shine a light, I created some discord. I created a lot of pain, and I'm sorry that I did that to my kids. I didn't know any better. I was just trying to win. I was trying to win a battle. I think some of the stuff that Matthew talked about is like, how do I elevate the child? How do I pick up the child and make them the primary thing that's going on? And not that I wasn't doing that as I was trying to move through this process, but so much of my energy and emotional capacity and physical capacity was taken in trying to point out what was going on that was wrong on the other side, trying to prove that my side was the right side. I don't think that was in the best interest of the kids. I think elevating the kids would have been in the best interest of the kids, and I did the best that I could. So no matter where you are in the progression of this stuff, you know, we're all just learning, and we get to change and we get to make a different decision tomorrow. And I'm so grateful that I get to have these kind of conversations and I get to look at part of my behavior in the past, what my behavior can look like in the present, what it does look like, and also understand that this is a generational theme. The more I work on myself, the more I influence the generational line, the better chance that my grandkids and my kids and the next generation has an opportunity. And sometimes it's not my kids, sometimes it's your kids, or someone that I randomly meet. The more I do my work, the more there is change. And I've come to the point where any positive impact is for my kids too, even though it might not direct be directly with my kids. Whatever. Think that was useful, not sure. Let's see what Matthew has to say on the second part of the show. That's wonderful and uh fascinating story. And also want to say with the analogy with Israel and Palestine, it'd be about family conflict and looking at a form of alienation back before time, and also saying that that conflict is creating a lot of pain and a lot of nuances, and we're not trying to make light of it and acknowledge everything that's struggling out there.

SPEAKER_00:

That's horrible.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yes. Moving on to mediation. What is mediation in a quick snippet from you, from your perspective? And then I want to ask you some questions about how to do it, where you do it, how it works, so people can get a little bit bigger view of what's happening with mediation is a forum where people can come together.

SPEAKER_00:

Two people can come together with a trained professional to have a conversation and take control of their life and try to create a world that is not good, bad, right, wrong, fair, or unfair, but a world where they can at least live with the terms, have rules, and be able to move forward. Lawrence, a lot of times in relationships, people go through three, and whether or not they're married, or even just say two people have a kid together, never married. Everybody goes and everyone that has a child like that, whether married or paternity, they go through three levels of relationship: acquaintance, intimacy, and loss of intimacy. So they're dating. We either get married and now we're getting divorced, or we were dating, we created a kid, and yeah, if this isn't working, we need to go our separate ways. All three of those levels, there's no accountability, no responsibility, no rules, no consequences. Everybody makes up their own rules inside their relationship, which is awesome. Like I don't want someone's rules imposed on me in a relationship. That's all fine until the relationship isn't working anymore. At that point, it can be very dangerous because there's no rules, accountability, responsibility, and consequence. So mediation is a place where people can come and for the first time ever in their relationship, they transition out of an emotional relationship into a business-like relationship where we are going to be two CEOs of a company. The company is Kid Inc. And for the first time ever, there's going to be rules, accountability, responsibility, and consequence. The rules for mom are the same as dad. Everyone's on an even playing field when it comes to rules. And when there's boundaries and rules, you can breathe because you know what you're allowed to do and not allowed to do. And there's also consequence. But what's cool is mom and dad get to create what those rules look like for their family. And so morality can come into play where it wouldn't in a court of law. So you can go to court and let a judge tell you how things are, but number one, you're not going to have control over that. And number two, you may or may not get the morality that you may want imposed on you and the other equally in that agreement as well. And so you've got control over what that looks like. And so my job as a mediator is to give people information, give them creative suggestions, help them negotiate, help facilitate the negotiations, and then help them draft the agreement that has the rules that then will become a contract and a court order, that then everybody can peacefully go about their way. Now, the idea, just like I had given the analogy of a business, the idea is that they transition into a business. And so your parenting plan is the corporate docs that structure the company, kidding. Nobody, no CEO walks into the company. I guarantee you, Tim Cook, every Monday, does not walk into Apple and pull out his corporate docs to see how he's supposed to run the company for the day. That's not how it works. The corporate docs are created so that if there is a disagreement, if there is a problem, if you get sued, well, then you pull out your corporate docs and say, okay, what are the rules? Am I protected? Okay, fine. It's the same thing with the parenting plan. It's there as a default. It's an umbrella that if it rains, I'm glad I have an umbrella in my car. And if it doesn't, completely ignore that you have an umbrella in your car. But at least it's there in the event. And my job is to empower people to take control of their life and create that agreement. You know, conflicts happen for four reasons. Every conflict, it's if, you know, every day when I mediate, the root problem is always identical. It's the fruit, it's that low-lying fruit that's always different because we're human beings and so conflict manifests itself differently. But there are four D's that I talk about that are the underlying root of every single conflict. It could be one, it could be a multiple, or it could be all four. But the four D's that underline every single conflict is number one, people feel dismissed. They feel like you don't matter. Your voice doesn't matter, your opinion doesn't matter, therefore now we have conflict. The other one is disrespect. You feel disrespected. And again, you don't matter. Your voice doesn't matter, your opinion doesn't matter, and you've been disrespected. The other one is disvalue. You have no value to me. Your input doesn't matter. And so you feel disvalued. And that leads then to disenfranchisement. You check out. And because you checked out, guess what? We don't have a relationship, therefore we have conflict. And so it can be either one of those, or usually it's a combination. But then welcome to mediation. Now we've got to deal with the fruit from the corrupted root of either feeling dismissed, disrespected, disvalued, which leads to disenfranchisement.

SPEAKER_01:

And most people get an attorney, other people are attorney up and they go to court and they have a argument with a judge who decides how the corporate documents from your analogy are going to get formed. Like, how does mediation play into this? How do you even get a mediator? And is it court-ordered? Is it voluntary? Can you do this before attorneys? How does this work? Because not everyone even knows, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like so it depends on the particular state. So family law is governed by state laws. It's awesome because there's only one federal law in the United States that governs family. You know what it is?

SPEAKER_01:

No idea.

SPEAKER_00:

It's the DOMA, Defense of Marriage Act. Now, here's what's interesting. Here's a little irony. The Defense of Marriage Act was enacted by Bill Clinton while he was having an affair with Monica Lewinsky. Interesting. Okay. Now, what it states is marriage is between a man and a woman. That's what it states. Now, then we have the Supreme Court that then says, well, and what's interesting is when the Supreme Court ruled and said that same-sex marriage is okay, they did not undo the DOMA. The DOMA still stands. It still says marriage is between a man and a woman. What the Supreme Court said is, well, you cannot block same-sex marriage. So that's the only federal law out there. Other than that, family law is governed by each of the states. So it varies state to state. So some states have certifications, some have appointments. It depends on the state laws of mediations. They have different certification requirements and whatnot. So I'm in Florida. Florida was one of the first states to enact mediation, I believe, back in 1987. And so in Florida, we have a certification process. And so, like I said in my intro, I am a Florida Supreme Court certified. So that means that I've got my degrees in my education, but then I had to go through a certification course created and done by the Florida Supreme Court. And there's different types. So you could get certified for county civil, you could get certified for circuit. You can get certified for family. You can get certified for dependency. You can get certified for appellate. It just depends on what's your interest in what do you want to get certified to do. You do that particular certification course, and now you can then do that. So you've got to get certified, then you've got to do a mentorship program. So every year I do mentorship programs for up-and-coming mediators, which means that in order to get your certification, you've got to go through the Florida Supreme Court certification course, and then you've got to go do a mentorship with an actual mediator so that they sign off and say, yes, they have observed or co-mediated with you, and they do their mentorship requirements, and then they get their certification. So now they can start becoming a mediator, building their practice, adding on to their practice or whatnot. So in Florida, we have a certification course. Now, also in Florida, mediation is statutory and it's by judicial order. So we have, let's see, I don't remember the exact statute, but it is the Collaborative Law Process Act that says basically everything needs to be going through mediation.

SPEAKER_01:

Any family court dispute, mediation is mandatory. It's ordered before you actually get in front of a judge. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00:

Not just family, every dispute. County civil, family, civil, small claims court. Even in small claims court, when you sue somebody and you want your$300 return from your landlord, you got to go to mediation. You have to go to mediation first. Now, why? Why? Because what they found is mediation works. So in I think it was 2018-2019, in the state of Florida, just under 4 million cases were filed in two years. That's a lot, right? But 82% settled in their very first mediation. That's huge, huge numbers. You have almost 4 million and 82% settled in their mediation. So 18% said, we can't figure it out. We're now going to a judge to have a judge figure it out. But before they actually got in front of a judge to figure it out, 15 of the 18% ended up settling, either in a second mediation or after depositions, negotiations with the attorneys, negotiations between each other. Only 3% actually ever went in front of a judge. So yeah, everything, it's go to court. Now why? Mediation is awesome because it saves the taxpayers' money. Who pays for judges and who pays for the lights and the courthouse and the clerks and all the public servants? Taxpayers. Lawrence, I do not want to pay for everybody getting divorced. I don't want my tax dollars going because two people are emotional and can't figure it out. But in mediation, put your money where your mouth is. You're paying for it. Not anybody else, not a taxpayer, you're paying for it. It's going to cost you. So everything's got to go to mediation before the judge will even give you a date. And if you go to mediation, you still can't figure it out. Fine. You can get your date later. Like I did mediation yesterday. The judges, and so yesterday, we're in September. The judge is setting, their particular judge is setting trials for May of 2026. They're not getting in in front of a court anytime soon. And between now and May, they're going to do depositions and more discovery, and they're going to go through the process. And here's the deal: by judicial ruling, 10 days before they get in front of the judge, judge will order them back to mediation. The courts do not want to figure this out. They will if they have to, but they don't want to. They want the people to take control of their lives and try to figure it out as much as humanly possible. And so I come in, I come in at various stages: pre-filing, post-filing, right before you see the judge, way before you see the judge, with attorneys, without attorneys. 20% of my practice, there's no attorneys involved ever. People do not want to hire attorneys. They don't want to spend the money. They want to come to mediation with a professional and figure it out quickly, inexpensively, peacefully, and just move on with their life.

SPEAKER_01:

And like 20%, I would think I would have thought it would be higher that people would actually come to you without attorneys, but 80% of the people have attorneys. And as a professional mediator, like me as a parent in a high conflict divorce with some form of estrangement, alienation, I like I don't want to sit in a room with the other parent with a mediator. Like, what do you say to parents that are in the situation when they come in? They say, I don't want to be in the same room. Like, how do you move through that stuff from a mediator's perspective?

SPEAKER_00:

All right. So first and foremost, my job, like I said, is to empower. Okay. So Lauren, I'll just be honest with you. Most mediations, mom and dad are not in the same room. They never see each other. They never talk to each other. It used to be different until about, so I've been doing this for 18 years. Up until about 20, I think, 17 or 18, most of the time we were all in a room together. There just seemed to be a shift in civility around 2018-2019. Where all of a sudden it's like, I don't want to be in the same room, I don't want to deal with it. It is faster and cheaper to get in the room and just deal with it. And my job, I actually wrote an article for the courthouse paper, gosh, beginning of my career, probably 17 years ago. And so it was interesting because it was called the controlled burn. For those of you that may not know what a what that term is, a controlled burn, firefighters do this. They'll go into, say, say though a wooded area where there's tree rot and whatnot, and they will intentionally set it on fire to burn down all of the old, and so then they can clear out the land, replant, recultivate, so you get a healthy forest starting to then grow. That's what I do every day. It is a controlled burn. My job is to show up and burn it all to the ground so we can cultivate and build something new. Because whatever is existing, I know it's corrupted and it doesn't work. Otherwise, you wouldn't be at my table. And so my job is to control that atmosphere. Whether we're all together in a room or whether we're in separate rooms, my job is to set that tone and control that burn. But every day it's a controlled burn. And so most of the time, most of the time, we are not in the same room. Because I mean, look, I remember the first time that my ex and I were ordered to mediation, it felt like if there An analogy, it felt like we were all in this room encased in jello. You could just feel the tension. And you could cut it with a butter knife. Like it was like we're just all encased in jello. And all my ex had to do was open up her mouth and say one thing. And I launched over the table. Liar. You're a liar. And uh the mediator was like, okay, we're going to separate rooms. Like she didn't know what to do. She's like, we're going to separate rooms. And so there are there are some people that, yes, we can all get together, have a conversation. It's faster, cheaper, easier to do it because we can, I only have to say everything one time. We can negotiate, ask the questions, go through and create the parenting plan. Most of the times, people are not in that mental healthy state. And my job is to empower them. Especially like if there is parental alienation, if there is domestic violence or even threats of violence, people could just look and stare across the table, like, don't you dare say that. Don't you dare. And that's fear and intimidation, and they are not empowered. And my job is to empower them to find out what's really going on. Give me behind the scenes so I can help create this. Otherwise, we're going to go through the process, but we're not going to fix anything.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I'll just say, like, I my experience with mediation is going into an attorney, a mediator's office, and I felt like the mediator had their own agenda, and it wasn't necessarily neutral. Like, is that stuff that you see other mediators really struggling with? Like, how do you decide what's a good mediator or what's a bad mediator? How to pick one?

SPEAKER_00:

So I don't see other mediators. I see attorneys. I work with attorneys. So I don't know. I've been getting more and more in the in the past year. I have been getting more and more and more interviews. Not from people like you, but from potential clients going, I found you online, I've watched your YouTube, I've listened to your podcast, and my husband and I, or my wife and I, we would like to meet with you and ask you some questions. Now, they're interviewing me, going, are you a good fit for us in our case? And so they're not asking legal advice at all, because I can't give legal advice. But they're sort of feeling me out, going, I hear what you're saying from a 30,000-foot view about mediation, about pearl alienation, and about what, okay, here's our case, here's our situation. How do we navigate this? And can you help us? And I'm being interviewed. Now, at the same time, what they don't understand is I'm interviewing them too. What level of crazy is this? Do I really want to get involved with this level of crazy? And so, I mean, I highly encourage people, which is why I do podcasts like this. I've got my own podcast. I'm an open book. Ask me whatever. But people do your research because no one mediator is the same. And can you have, I mean, as a mediator, I have to leave bias at the door. Here's something interesting, Lawrence. I did a mediation many, many, many years ago. And at the end, the husband was like, oh my gosh, thank you, Mr. Brickman. I am so grateful. Thank you, Mr. Brickman. You were amazing. We got through this and you helped me, and oh my gosh. And he was just bowing, you know, he was bowing, and you'll understand this in a second. He was bowing and just so grateful. I have to keep all biases and everything out and check it at the door to where I don't know and they don't know. Because I'm coming in simply neutral to help. Now, here's the situation. This guy was from the Middle East. His father was the number two in ISIS. I am a Christian and a Jew and a mediator. And he was like, thank you, Mr. Brickman. You were so good. You helped us. How in the world does a Christian Jew help the number two son in ISIS get divorced? Like you've got to check all biases, everything at the door.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a crazy story. Super crazy story.

SPEAKER_00:

So, but I think, you know, but I mean, absolutely, like you've got people have to, just like when you go and you find an attorney, you interview an attorney, they're interviewing you, you're interviewing them, right? You're asking the questions, are you a good fit for my personality and our case and whatnot? Absolutely. Do research on your mediator. Now, here's something else, too. And when I used to teach, just for your listeners, interesting, prior to becoming a mediator, I taught hair color for an international hair color company. I've been a licensed cosmetologist for almost 30 years. So my first love and passion was I taught hair color. I loved working in a salon. I taught women how to color men, women how to color hair. It was fun. And then I got divorced and I got pushed into all of this, like we said, started our conversation into mediation. And for 18 years now, I've done mediation. But what was interesting was I used to teach people how to navigate conflict, whether it was chemical hair color or whether it's family issues. It's still that creative side of dealing with conflict, right? So I used to always tell people do not ever just look at how long somebody has been either licensed, certified, or practicing. That is not an indication at all. Because, for example, I've been doing this for 18 years, okay? All right, well, Matthew must know what he's doing. Okay, number one. Is he busy? Or is he just sitting on his license? I don't know. Like, does he have experience? Number one, okay. So on my website, I have my resume, my CV. It is updated every single month for not just how many mediations I've done that month or that year or total, but how many even hours have I been doing this? Like, do I know what I'm doing? Hopefully so. So, I mean, I have, you know, it's September 2025. I have mediated over 12,000 hours of my life. Wow. I have done over 3,400 mediations. If you look at my calendar right now, today, it is September, and I have no openings until November. September's gone, it's completely booked. October is completely booked, and November is disappearing pretty fast. I'm booked up, I'm in high demand. And on some days, I even have doubles because I'm like, I can't see it. They're like, can you squeeze us in? Okay. I've got weekends and nights. Like, I'm in high demand. Now, why? Number two, when you're looking for a mediator, when was the last time they educated? Like, I could be doing this for 18 years, but you know what? I went to college and I got my undergrad in paralegal studies. I got my bachelor's in pre-law with a minor in mediational arbitration. I then went to law school. Okay, so when was the last time, okay, well, okay, well, oh, in 07 you got certified as a county civil mediator, and then oh, in 08 you got this one in 09. Okay, so is that it? You know, and I say the same thing with lawyers. I don't care if you've been practicing for 50 years. When was the last time you actually went to the bar conference and got an update on the new laws and statutes and 20 years ago? Yeah, uh it shows, right? So look at their education. So even me as a mediator, I want to constantly be learning and honing my craft and find, you know, learning, going, okay, I need to keep growing. And so, for example, you know, I got all of my certifications in 07, 08, 09, 2011, 2012. And then I was so busy mediating, I didn't even have time to educate for seven years. But I felt like, and I was doing great. I was busy, I was mediating, but personally, I was like, I started to get hungry. And I'm like, I need to hum my craft. Like, I really want to get better. Not just coast, not just be like, yeah, I'm a mediator, I can help you. I really wanted to get even better. So in 2019, I applied to Harvard Business School's negotiation mastery program. What was interesting was it was not family law. It was all business. What was interesting is I all of a sudden I'm completely out of my element because I do primarily family. And now I'm not mediating, I'm actually negotiating. I'm in the spot where the people that I mediate for, I'm in their spot. I actually have to negotiate. Not mediate, negotiate. I have vested interest. That gave me a different perspective, and it helped me become a better mediator because now I'm getting a different perspective of, oh, this is what the clients feel like. It had been a long time since I was in that position on my own in my own case, but it's also different when it's your own case. You sort of lose perspective because it's your own case. So all of a sudden I'm like, oh, this is what it feels like with them. But he was completely out of my element. I'm doing business stuff and numbers. And I do family law because we don't do numbers. We have programs that calculate numbers. I'm not doing numbers. And that was that was incredible. But I got even hungrier. So then I applied because that one, you just pay your money, you get in, you get there's like 434 people. It was virtual from around the world, and it was awesome. It was really, really very good. It was through Harvard, it was very good. But then they had a next level that you had to apply for, and they selected. So I put in my application, and it was for Harvard Law School's mastery negotiation executive education program. And in that one, 50 people from around the world get hand selected to fly to Boston, go to Harvard, and to actually train. And I applied and I got in. And when I got my acceptance letter, I actually started to cry. I was so emotional. I was like, holy moly, I got in. And I was the last class that got in before COVID. Flew up to Boston, went to Harvard, was taught by their top of the top. I mean, we had, and it was 50 of the best negotiators in the world that were flown in. But again, not family, all business. And now we're negotiating top-tier, like international stuff, business stuff, really, really stretched me out of my comfort zone. But it took me to another level of being able to mediate and take those principles and help me become better for the people that chose me to become their mediator. So then in 2019, when I finished that one, before we knew about COVID, I applied for Harvard's experiential course, which was the Abraham Path Initiative. Remember, we talked about Abraham, right? The Arabs and the Jews. Well, there's the Abraham Path Initiative, which was created by the founder of Harvard's program on negotiation, William Urey. He actually had him and Josh Weiss and a couple other people 25 years ago negotiated the Abraham Path Initiative. And so I applied for that to go over to Jordan and walk part of that path as an experiential negotiation piece. And uh there were 15 of us from around the world that were gonna do it. COVID happened, got shut down, and didn't get to do it. And I was just like devastated. So that was in 2020. In 2021, I was contacted by the Abraham Path Initiative to said, hey, you wanted to do this with us, world shut down still, but we're gonna create a virtual. Do you want to do it? I'm like, no. They're like, really? It's gonna be the first ever. I'm like, no, I'll wait until I can actually go and do it. They contacted me three times throughout the year, going, Matthew, do you want to do it? I'm like, finally, the third time, I'm like, fine, I'll do it. So I did it. It was incredible, insane. What an experience. Still 15 of us, and taught by Josh Weiss, who actually negotiated the first part of the path in Turkey. And it was an incredible learning experience, very difficult, but very, very good. And then in 2024, yeah, last year, applied to Columbia Business School's Persuasion Without Authority Executive Education Program. And so there was about 30 of us from around the world that got accepted and flew in for that course. And again, all business. Basically, it was all C-suite level executives, the CFO of the Central Bank of Indonesia. Like, you know, you know, if I'm going to name drop, you know, US Navy, US State Department. Like, and I'm going, and I'm I mediate. Like, okay, negotiating, like, you know, we had the CFO from CVS Etna. You know.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, love low-tiered folks with nothing better to do. Yeah, low-tiered P.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, even the professor was just incredible. It was an amazing course. And it just again took me to another level that I had not been at in my ability and my skill set and whatnot. And so I'm continually learning. That's one thing they need that people need to find out is okay, do they have the education and the experience, but are they constantly learning? Because they could just get stale where they are and they don't have new creative tools in their toolbox to help you navigate and help you get out of your conflict. And it's like, okay, well, now you're just checking a box in mediation so you can go to court. No, I'm going to mediation because I want to have control, but do I have somebody that can actually help me gain control so I can get out of the judicial system successfully with tools that I want to have, not that a judge is imposing on me, but ones that I want to have. And so this year, actually in 20 days, I leave for Turkey with Josh Weiss and William Urey and the board of directors for the API for the 25th anniversary to go and walk the path with people from around the world. So I'm about to leave for Turkey in less than three weeks, and I am excited beyond excited for now getting that experiential negotiation path in the Middle East, walking, engaging, learning, and learning from my two mentors that I have read all of their books, built my entire career around their negotiation concept, and now I get to spend uh 10 days with them on the ground, just learning. And so those are the types of things that I always encourage people, even like when I taught hair collar, don't just look at how long they've done something. Do your investigation, ask the questions, interview them, find out what their education credentials are, find out if they're continually learning and growing. Because if I need a mediator, those are the things that I'm going to be looking at.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for that, Matthew. And as we're wrapping up here, uh first of all, I want to thank you for all your time. And can you just let folks know how they can find you? And we'll have all the stuff in the show notes so they can check out your podcast and any other information you have, you know, around what you do and what mediation looks like. But just a couple seconds of what else you might have that might be interesting for folks to look at.

SPEAKER_00:

So everything you would ever need to know about me, mediation, everything, it's on my website. I have everything there. I have an entire page dedicated to people that are representing themselves that don't have attorneys, that has how to guides, has paperwork, has everything for them, and there's links to the podcast. I mean, everything's built into the website so that you're not having to go and scatter and try to find me. So everything from YouTube to Instagram to Facebook to the website to the podcast, everything is on the website, iChatmediation.com. And so my phone number is on there, my email is on there, my calendar of availability is on there, scheduling mediation is, I mean, everything's automated. Everything is on one place that then will send you to all the various pieces you want. But I've tried to streamline it so that you go to iChatMediation.com and there's everything you need.

SPEAKER_01:

That is awesome, Matthew. And thank you for the wonderful conversation and the stories and the analogies and your personality. Really, really enjoyed it. And again, thanks for taking the time to come out to chat.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I I really appreciate the opportunity. It's great to see the idea again. We'll have to do this again.

SPEAKER_01:

One every two years. Yeah, or sooner. Wow. Wow, what what a great show. What great information, what a great storyteller. And I loved all the different things that Matthew was talking about in the end of the show that he's doing to continue to grow and stretch. And some of the stuff that he was talking about sounds phenomenal and outreach for most of us, but I also think it's like, how do I continue to stretch emotionally, spiritually, and physically? And it can be going to the gym, it can be taking a class, it can be volunteering, it can be of service. And uh I love that. And it can be super, super simple. It can just be a bite, it doesn't need to be a whole sandwich. So I just want to say that out loud that sometimes we set these lofty goals of where I need to get or what this needs to look like, but sometimes it's just being nice to the person in front of you at the supermarket. So thanks for coming out to play today. It was great to have you. I hope you enjoyed the show. Please email me at family disappeared at gmail.com. Any comments, future guests, ideas, likes, dislikes, and I hope you have a beautiful day. And in case no one has told you today, I love you. And I'm so glad I get to say that because of the work that I am doing all myself, because I wouldn't have been able to say that several years ago. It just felt super silly and super awkward, and I would say who does that. Anyway, I do that today. I love you, have a beautiful day, and we'll see you around the neighborhood soon. Thanks for taking the time to join me on this episode of Family Disappear Podcast. Do you know someone who can benefit from what we're discussing on today's episode? If so, please share this podcast with them and anyone else in your community that might be interested in changing their lives. Together we'll continue the exploring growing and human journey. I will see you on the next episode. Until then, happy days to all.